Author Topic: Walking While Black  (Read 1454 times)

tengen

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Tim Eriksen

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Re: Walking While Black
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2017, 01:08:20 PM »
Setting aside whether there was any profiling for a second, the writers don't know how to use statistics.  "In the last five years, blacks received 55 percent of all pedestrian tickets in Jacksonville, while only accounting for 29 percent of the population."  At first glance that may scream profiling or racism but you shouldn't compare % of population to % of tickets unless you know that they have similar levels of pedestrian activity.  It seems logical that black areas are poorer than white, probably have lower vehicle ownership, more urban, and thus do more walking.  So the proper comparable might be miles walked but that can't be easily tracked so they grabbed a proxy (population) that is probably a very poor one. 

DTEJD1997

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Re: Walking While Black
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2017, 01:35:31 PM »
Hey all:

It is an interesting problem...

In my area of the world, there are good amount of minority citizens...and they get stopped VERY frequently in traffic stops...but so do white people!

One neighboring towns (St. Clair Shores) is NOTORIOUS for traffic stops/harassing drivers.  I've even been harassed by "the man" myself and I'm not a minority.  Every one that I know (locally) has been pulled over/stopped/ticketed in the neighboring town.

I attempt NOT to do business in St. Clair Shores when I can avoid it...just don't want to risk problems with the police.

I am not sure it is a racial thing entirely, as most (not all) of my associates are white.  I think it is mainly a MONEY thing.  The city needs $$$$$ to support the bureaucracy and writing tons & tons & tons of tickets is a good way to get it.

LC

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Re: Walking While Black
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2017, 02:18:30 PM »
Setting aside whether there was any profiling for a second, the writers don't know how to use statistics.  "In the last five years, blacks received 55 percent of all pedestrian tickets in Jacksonville, while only accounting for 29 percent of the population."  At first glance that may scream profiling or racism but you shouldn't compare % of population to % of tickets unless you know that they have similar levels of pedestrian activity.  It seems logical that black areas are poorer than white, probably have lower vehicle ownership, more urban, and thus do more walking.  So the proper comparable might be miles walked but that can't be easily tracked so they grabbed a proxy (population) that is probably a very poor one.

This is the typical response. The argument is "well maybe black people just behave more dangerously"

If you read the rest of the article you will find evidences for the contrary: black neighborhoods are underdeveloped by the city: lack of sidewalks, crosswalks up to 1.3 miles apart, and 4 lane high speed throughways cutting through low income apartment housing. The consultants hired by the govt to study the situation concluded the same. Oh, and the photographic evidence of Jacksonville police breaking the exact same laws they ticket mostly black people for does not help the counter argument either.

That said, I don't care whether it's a racial issue or not. The solution is to fix the infrastructure to allow safe pedestrian movement. That's step #1.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 02:21:01 PM by LC »
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Tim Eriksen

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Re: Walking While Black
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 04:19:52 PM »
Setting aside whether there was any profiling for a second, the writers don't know how to use statistics.  "In the last five years, blacks received 55 percent of all pedestrian tickets in Jacksonville, while only accounting for 29 percent of the population."  At first glance that may scream profiling or racism but you shouldn't compare % of population to % of tickets unless you know that they have similar levels of pedestrian activity.  It seems logical that black areas are poorer than white, probably have lower vehicle ownership, more urban, and thus do more walking.  So the proper comparable might be miles walked but that can't be easily tracked so they grabbed a proxy (population) that is probably a very poor one.

This is the typical response. The argument is "well maybe black people just behave more dangerously"

If you read the rest of the article you will find evidences for the contrary: black neighborhoods are underdeveloped by the city: lack of sidewalks, crosswalks up to 1.3 miles apart, and 4 lane high speed throughways cutting through low income apartment housing. The consultants hired by the govt to study the situation concluded the same. Oh, and the photographic evidence of Jacksonville police breaking the exact same laws they ticket mostly black people for does not help the counter argument either.

That said, I don't care whether it's a racial issue or not. The solution is to fix the infrastructure to allow safe pedestrian movement. That's step #1.

Congratulations on completely misunderstanding what I wrote and for mischaracterizing it into something racial.   smh   

LC

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Re: Walking While Black
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2017, 05:57:18 PM »
Your argument was the underlying analysis was statistically flawed. Im not sure how you can arrive at that conclusion without explaining why either the dataset or methodology is flawed.

Your argument that "black people do more walking" would suggest more tickets AND more fatalities proportionally. However as the article clearly mentions, "Fatal Crashes Are Evenly Distributed, But Tickets Arenít.
Although census tracts where the population is mostly black had similar numbers of deadly crashes compared to other neighborhoods, residents there were ticketed anywhere from two to five times as much. "

I'd be happy to understand how you can claim the study does not take into account level of pedestrian behavior (I.e more walking) when they are clearly using #of pedestrian fatalities as a proxy (and probably a good one) for this factor.
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Tim Eriksen

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Re: Walking While Black
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2017, 06:50:02 PM »
Your argument was the underlying analysis was statistically flawed. Im not sure how you can arrive at that conclusion without explaining why either the dataset or methodology is flawed.

Your argument that "black people do more walking" would suggest more tickets AND more fatalities proportionally. However as the article clearly mentions, "Fatal Crashes Are Evenly Distributed, But Tickets Arenít.
Although census tracts where the population is mostly black had similar numbers of deadly crashes compared to other neighborhoods, residents there were ticketed anywhere from two to five times as much. "

I'd be happy to understand how you can claim the study does not take into account level of pedestrian behavior (I.e more walking) when they are clearly using #of pedestrian fatalities as a proxy (and probably a good one) for this factor.

I did exactly what you are looking for regarding methodology.  I said it is incorrect to use two statistics (population % and pedestrian ticket %) that are not correlated as the basis for their conclusion.

The authors say fatal crashes are evenly distributed, yet in the first quintile fatal crashes were 60 to 65% below the number of crashes of the other four quintiles.   But they ignore that.  They fail to explain how fatal crashes and tickets are correlated.  It seems logical that there could be another explanation.  Did they analyze the number of vehicle/pedestrian accidents that were not fatal?  Are the miles driven in each area similar?  Are the number of dangerous intersections evenly distributed?  Are speed limits similar?  Apparently none of these or other possible explanations were considered.  It is sloppy reporting and poor use of statistics.  Their conclusion of possible racism may well be correct, they should do a better job proving it. 

 

flesh

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Re: Walking While Black
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 10:12:13 AM »
If group A commits double the crimes as a % of the population compared to group B. Would it make sense that law enforcement would spend a disproportionate amount of time dealing with group A? If there's a way to reconcile this, I don't understand it. If I was a cop, I can't imagine purposely not focusing on any group that committed more crime than other groups in my jurisdiction without a mandate to do so.

In junior high and high school, I looked more likely to commit crimes than most others. I had hair down to my waist, ear rings, beat up pants, tye dye shirts, chipped teeth and a beater car. This was all in a city that was 97% mormon, wasn't it clear they should focus on me? If you don't know how mormons look in a city that's 97% mormon, just imagine the cleanest most honest looking group of people you can imagine straight out of leave it to beaver.

I was constantly being followed..... and busted.... for misdemeanors by law enforcement. If I did anything remotely suspicious, people would routinely call the cops. Nobody was wrong about me....