Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: clutch on November 22, 2017, 05:44:07 AM

Title: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on November 22, 2017, 05:44:07 AM
"Wilfrid Laurier graduate student delivers a wake-up call"
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/lindsay-shepherd-delivers-a-wake-up-call/article37033031/

A teaching assistant showed a five-minute clip of a debate on gender pronouns aired on a public service broadcaster in Ontario. The clip happened to feature Jordan Peterson, who has been associated with right-wing (some of them far-right) groups. The student was called into a reprimand with three professors.

The audio recording of that reprimand is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YdFlKaJv4g

What hypocrisy displayed by these professors!
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: wachtwoord on November 22, 2017, 08:35:39 AM
So the only scientist left in there is a 22 year old teaching assistant? I take off my hat for he for keeping her foot down.

"I thought, if this is something that can cause you to lose your teaching-assistant job, then I don't want to be here"
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 22, 2017, 12:07:49 PM
Quote
Richard Spencer is a figure without academic credibility so we can't present his views

Quote
We can't present his views because it would give him credibility

Yep that makes sense.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on November 22, 2017, 12:18:53 PM
What is going on at universities?  Complete insanity.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/11/the-surprising-revolt-at-reed/544682/

There is too much utter lunacy in this article for one quote to do it justice, but here's one quote anyway.

"During Martínez Valdivia’s lecture on Sappho, protesters sat together in the seats wearing all black; they confronted her after class, with at least one of them yelling at the professor about her past trauma, bringing her to tears. “I am intimidated by these students,” Martínez Valdivia later wrote, noting she is “scared to teach courses on race, gender, or sexuality, or even texts that bring these issues up in any way—and I am a gay mixed-race woman.” Such fear, she revealed in an op-ed for The Washington Post, prompted some of her colleagues— “including people of color, immigrants, and those without tenure”—to avoid lecturing altogether."
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 22, 2017, 12:19:30 PM
The interrogator is a Marxist:
https://www.facebook.com/drjordanpeterson/posts/1598402340223895

What I find interesting is that a scholar whose philosophy led to the death of 100 million people world wide is perfectly acceptable but the Agenda on TVO of all places is considered too controversial to show in a classroom.

Just for context, TVO which stands for TV Ontario and is an extremely innocuous television channel that is about as controversial as apple pie.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on November 22, 2017, 12:25:05 PM
The interrogator is a Marxist:
https://www.facebook.com/drjordanpeterson/posts/1598402340223895

What I find interesting is that a scholar whose philosophy led to the death of 100 million people world wide is perfectly acceptable but the Agenda on TVO of all places is considered too controversial to show in a classroom.

Just for context, TVO which stands for TV Ontario and is an extremely innocuous television channel that is about as controversial as apple pie.

I'm sure there are professors or college students that would tell you that apple pie is sexist.  Historically women made apple pies on thanksgiving more often than men.  Men, the barbarians, just ate them.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 22, 2017, 12:36:49 PM
The crazy alt-right professor that the TA presented was this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

Who is not alt-right, although he has many alt-right supporters.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on November 22, 2017, 01:04:17 PM
I've seen so many ridiculous stories like this over the past few years. I don't get it. Of all places, Uni's are exactly the places to have these debates.

If you ask me, Uni administrations/deans need to take a stronger stance. Perhaps maybe they would rather cater to 18 year-olds with upset feelings (who are paying $50k/year) rather than take a principled approach.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: no_free_lunch on November 22, 2017, 06:25:57 PM
People on the right need to be aware that their rights are under attack and this puts a spotlight on it.  Her career is now toast.  I see her as a martyr.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: boilermaker75 on November 22, 2017, 06:45:42 PM
https://www.npr.org/2016/08/26/491531869/university-of-chicago-tells-freshmen-it-does-not-support-trigger-warnings
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: wachtwoord on November 23, 2017, 03:34:38 AM
People on the right need to be aware that their rights are under attack and this puts a spotlight on it.  Her career is now toast.  I see her as a martyr.

These 3 people interrugating her are doing much worst than the vast majority of the #metoo accused in abusing their position to push through their personal believes. On top of that they do it in an academic setting and take sides on issues from a position of authority. They don't deserve to use the words 'scientific method' as they clearly don't understand what it entails or have no respect for it. They need to be named and shamed across mass media and have their careers destroyed. But hey, the (left wing controlled ) mainstream news outlets certainly won't do that as they are just the same.

We need to start making lists of these monsters so if anyone runs into them you can refuse to do business with them or deal with them in any fashion, in effect isolating them.

The sad part is that this is common in universities (especially sociology and social studies related) but generally there is no proof.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on November 23, 2017, 08:47:38 AM
Lack of political diversity in campus:
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/the-politics-of-the-professoriat-political-diversity-on-campus-1.4280778

The irony of killing (political) diversity to promote diversity...

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: DTEJD1997 on November 23, 2017, 11:51:52 AM
People on the right need to be aware that their rights are under attack and this puts a spotlight on it.  Her career is now toast.  I see her as a martyr.

These 3 people interrugating her are doing much worst than the vast majority of the #metoo accused in abusing their position to push through their personal believes. On top of that they do it in an academic setting and take sides on issues from a position of authority. They don't deserve to use the words 'scientific method' as they clearly don't understand what it entails or have no respect for it. They need to be named and shamed across mass media and have their careers destroyed. But hey, the (left wing controlled ) mainstream news outlets certainly won't do that as they are just the same.

We need to start making lists of these monsters so if anyone runs into them you can refuse to do business with them or deal with them in any fashion, in effect isolating them.

The sad part is that this is common in universities (especially sociology and social studies related) but generally there is no proof.

Hey all:

Academia in the West has been corrupted.  I think it first started with the money, now it has spread to ideology.

While corruption is terrible, and very well may well lead to the downfall of the West...this is probably a long term, multi-generational process.  I think the more immediate problem may be is where do these "leftists" go next if they are not put in check?  My guess is that they start attacking each other.  This has already started.  Who wants to bet that within a year from this Thanksgiving, the left will have totally turned on the Clintons?  This is already starting...

Once all the ideologically impure members of the left have been culled, then what?

I will guess that they start going after EVERYBODY who is not part of the protected class OR anybody who disagrees with them.  I would be willing to bet that these SJW's on the left will be calling for "re-education camps" or even worse.  It has happened before, and certainly could happen again.

The time to stop them is now....
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on November 23, 2017, 01:04:00 PM
The place for radicals is a university, and the more radical they are  - the better it is for everybody. Everybody grows old & complacent.
Worst that happens is someone says the wrong thing, gets into a fight, and ends up in hospital for a time; the organized get a needle, and a visit from the men in black.

Most often the issues are real, & should be addressed going forward.
Fail to address them, & society runs the risk of ambitious people using them to push their own agendas. An outcome that often ends sadly.

Cultural appropriation has been the norm for almost all history.
One simply invaded a neighbor, & told them they were all going to follow 'your way' from this day forth; anybody who objected lost their head (ending protest). The 'conquered' simply 'assimilated', and then slowly converted the 'conquerer' to 'their way'. Whichever way was best for the local conditions survived, and the hybridization process made everybody better.     

Let them protest.
 
SD

 
       
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on November 23, 2017, 07:47:42 PM
We need to start making lists of these monsters so if anyone runs into them you can refuse to do business with them or deal with them in any fashion, in effect isolating them.

Really? This was the mentality of a certain German regime, it doesn't work because it's dehumanizing. This is not how solutions emerge, only how conflict is needlessly escalated.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 23, 2017, 10:17:52 PM
Seriously? You guys are now freaking out about the snowflakes? Jeez...
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: wachtwoord on November 24, 2017, 01:49:29 AM
We need to start making lists of these monsters so if anyone runs into them you can refuse to do business with them or deal with them in any fashion, in effect isolating them.

Really? This was the mentality of a certain German regime, it doesn't work because it's dehumanizing. This is not how solutions emerge, only how conflict is needlessly escalated.

It is when the damn monsters are heading universities. They need to be removed.

I'm always surprised how the German regime you are referring to is implicated with the political right. They were national socialists (hence the name of their party NSDAP) and are of the same side we should be looking to fight. It's the natural end-station of any nationalist socialist movement as they love giving all power to the government and similar institutions to protect and want to ban and delegitimize certain opinions and facts they don't agree with.

Socialist propaganda was quite successful it seems.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on November 24, 2017, 02:14:43 AM
My comment was on effective problem solving techniques, not which side is right or wrong or liberal or conservative.

SD (as usual) put it eloquently: The place for radicals is a university. My addition is that there are radicals on either end of the political spectrum, and each has legitimate gripes.

What really bothers me is the divisiveness which undermines efforts towards any solution. And this isn't directed at you, it's a general comment. I've seen it from both "sides". Each has their own way of saying: "Let's put all those problem people in a group and systematically dismiss them". And then they go on to tell you how, e.g. "The liberals are all snowflakes", "The conservatives are all regressive" etc. My response is, Has ignoring a problem ever solved it?
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 24, 2017, 03:55:00 AM
Hey, but at least you don't have Trump. So much more civilised to have a teenager who wants to hug the world running the place. You reap what you sow.

Tough to be liberal, leftist and not end up socialist only to realise after a few million dead people that for one, yes God did create man and woman and trying to deny the obvious is insane. Socialism eats its young and to think that Canada only has a intellectual problem limited to its universities is naive.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/easter-bunny-1.4067854

To invert and from a non-Christian point of view: Why would such behaviour by the professors shock you? Why the hell can they not do it and who are you to tell me that I cannot stand behind those professors 100%? There is no absolute truth right, so ultimately let me decide what I like and if there is enough of us then we'll simply get rid of those who disagree. Happening in front of your very eyes already. Don't like what we say, we'll come down hard. Don't like the way we tell you to raise kids, we'll take them.

I love Canada, two of my kids are Canadian, but the place scares the living daylights out of me.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 24, 2017, 05:37:43 AM
Comment and Question.

-There are exceptions but I find one ("us") may have more in common than it superficially appears with others who are "different" ("them").

-Let's say I agree that we need to move in a certain direction along the collective/individual spectrum, can you elaborate on: "...so ultimately let me decide what I like and if there is enough of us then we'll simply get rid of those who disagree... Don't like what we say, we'll come down hard."?
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 24, 2017, 07:02:26 AM
Comment and Question.

-There are exceptions but I find one ("us") may have more in common than it superficially appears with others who are "different" ("them").

-Let's say I agree that we need to move in a certain direction along the collective/individual spectrum, can you elaborate on: "...so ultimately let me decide what I like and if there is enough of us then we'll simply get rid of those who disagree... Don't like what we say, we'll come down hard."?
The elitists in the (socialist) tribe will decide the direction/spectrum and the collective and individuals will be separated with the latter risking to ultimately be added to the estimated 100m-200m body count. There is no place for the individual and this girl at the university and the couple in Hamilton is finding this out.

I don't expect you to agree with it, but humans are inherently evil and once we try and ignore God and run things ourselves (no place for God in socialism) then you reap the whirlwind. Canada is aggressively purging itself of Christians and embracing socialism and no better example than telling Christian parents you will take their kids unless they raise them according to the dictates of the collective rather than our Creator https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-ontario-passes-totalitarian-bill-allowing-govt-to-take-kids-from-c
How far do you think you need to travel to get from telling a family how to raise their kids to shooting someone for not doing it? History is simply repeating itself.

If you ask your question under the assumption that we all live under the 2nd greatest commandment of "love your neighbour as you love yourself" you have a different outcome and if those professors and the girl pursued that ideal, maybe the conversation would have sounded and ended differently.  Emptying yourself for the one next to you is only achieved through grace, but us humans including myself don't like to hear that. Such is life; we're not good at learning from our mistakes.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on November 24, 2017, 07:21:23 AM
University professors, generally speaking are the worst. A lot of them are genuine and care. But generally they are people(especially in the business colleges) who had short and unproductive professional careers who now stroke their egos by reciting textbooks and a rehashed version of their own careers, but in a glorified light. Then you also have the career professors who live in the academia bubble and have no clue that what works in theory in a textbook doesn't always pan out in real life. I've read something that like 85%+ are bleeding heart liberals too. There is little more stimulating to the ego than having a captive audience of malleable minds for 3 hours a week.

What's funny is the worst I'd ever personally experienced was a guy who was a walking cartoon. 6'5 white dude from Georgia, jacked as hell, loud raspy voice. Aggressive. He also happened to hate white men(the females he would line up in the front row and blatantly hit on). He would incessantly rant about how the world just f*cks blacks, Hispanics, and homosexuals. 90% of his breathe was spent screaming about social injustices. He was an English teacher. One of the more accomplished as well. I sought out his classes because if you told him what he wanted to hear, it was a guaranteed A. He would routinely manipulate Shakespeare sonnets into rants on modern day inequality and discrimination lectures that ended with him throwing chairs across the room and punching holes in the walls. It was quite the show. Our final exam(50% of the overall grade) was an in class essay. The subject? What was Shakespeare saying in his sonnets about the treatment of gays and Jews in the 2000's! Yes this was a graduate level English course!

Well fast forward a decade plus, and I was scrolling through the New York Post and found this.

https://nypost.com/2017/03/28/teacher-allegedly-tried-seducing-student-with-shakespeare/

Wasnt surprising one bit. What was originally suprising was that this guy was still teaching, even when I was in school as a decade prior he was kicked out of a super liberal west coast university for beating up a 21 year old student who happened to be the ex-boyfriend of a 20 year old student that he was currently dating.


Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on November 24, 2017, 07:55:09 AM
Tomorrows politician is in today's political science class, cutting their teeth in today's more toxic 'protest' environment.
The best on all  sides will rise to the top, & clash against each other on the way up. Prize fights aren't pretty, but the result is that every 'winner' knows how to use that environment, and becomes very good at what they do. Every politician has to learn how to stay alive, and character assassination has long been an instrument of statecraft.

Allowing the protests, free speech, manipulation and passion an outlet; lets words and ideas replace bullets, and bombs. Way safer for everybody, but the processes have to be allowed to run their course. Hearing contrary opinion, whether we want to or not, is a healthy thing.

Most politicians aren't graceful losers. The civilized approach is an opposition bench, and isolation of the tone deaf.
Those who opt for the violent solutions meet the men in black.

SD
   

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 24, 2017, 09:57:21 AM
I love Canada, two of my kids are Canadian, but the place scares the living daylights out of me.
You are terrified by .... Canada? Wow!
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: no_free_lunch on November 24, 2017, 10:12:04 AM
rb, could you be more obnoxious?  Would you care to actually respond to the real arguments listed.  E.g. people being disciplined at universities for offering a differing view point.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Jurgis on November 24, 2017, 10:51:03 AM
CoBF scares the living daylights out of me.  ::)
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 24, 2017, 02:17:29 PM
rb, could you be more obnoxious?  Would you care to actually respond to the real arguments listed.  E.g. people being disciplined at universities for offering a differing view point.
I could. I didn't try very hard.

Btw, I guessing that Mr.B musings on socialism, the impending genocide, Christianity, the Creator, and his fear of Canada etc must have been really on point regarding the disciplinary process at universities since I didn't see you have a problem with that.

But now since you've asked about universities. I wrote on the board many times that you get a big problem when you turn students into customers through ridiculous tuition fees. That's really more of a problem in the US. Not so much in Canada (except for some elite programs) though I fear that we are heading towards that way. But that's not the case here.

Canadian universities for the most part are actually pretty mainstream, conservative institutions. Wilfred Laurier definitely is. They hate headlines, they hate controversy, and they do not want it nor court it. The whole freedom to explore your inner self and whatever cooky ideas you may have is more a thing that goes on the glossy brochure they hand out teenagers than a real thing. Yea they'll allow a lot of stuff but when something comes close to controversy or wing nuttery (right or left) they'll slam on the breaks pretty hard.

That meeting was total bullshit. They don't care one bit about trans people, transfobia, or whether some students may be offended. The topic and the guy in the video (Peterson) can be a hot one. The university wants to stay the hell away from that. They don't want some dumb ass 19 year old lefty launch some youtube video in search of social media fame. Basically wanted to avoid the exactly the type of situation they are in now. You just witnessed how the sausage is made.

Now did they handle this wrongly? Yes. Were the people in that meeting dumb? Yes. Will they do it differently in the future? Probably. Btw, all this stuff is really a total non issue up here.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 24, 2017, 04:20:21 PM
You guys are marks for believing in formal education to begin with. The education system, at least in the United States, is largely a money laundering outfit designed to provide what amounts to make-work jobs for the "elites."

People on the right need to be aware that their rights are under attack and this puts a spotlight on it.  Her career is now toast.  I see her as a martyr.

You might appreciate this song, No Free Lunch. The whole western world is under assault and nobody wants to do ANYTHING about it!

https://youtu.be/tH4p_MX4YG8?t=5s
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 24, 2017, 05:52:43 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 24, 2017, 06:25:20 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.

It's time to wake up and realize that formal education is bullshit and has been for decades. The push towards making it nearly mandatory to attend college has created a very helpful brainwashing tool for those in power.

When you realize that the education system has no integrity, you stop expecting it to behave in a way that is sensible. And then its behavior makes a whole lot more sense.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 24, 2017, 06:26:42 PM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 24, 2017, 08:37:20 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Ok let me try to keep most of the stark out so I don't piss off any more people.

Not everything has to be a political liberal vs conservative thing. So you point out an idiot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Other times an idiot is just an idiot. Should we just outlaw all the things some don't like? Like humanities? I think Jeff Imlet was an idiot. Should we outlaw CEOs?

Maybe that doesn't make much sense so let me take another track. Poetry. I don't like poetry. I don't get it. I hated it in school. If poets and poetry weren't around my odds with girls will likely be increased (I actually tried to write one once... sad). I don't think any poets made any money ever. So it's a totally uneconomic activity. At the same time poetry has been with us for millennia. So it's pretty obvious that humanity and society for some reason needs poets just as it needs engineers (even though engineering is a more lucrative profession). So as much as the efficient animal in me would like to eliminate poets and poetry the analytical human in me recognizes that for some reason they are necessary for the proper functioning of the species and scoiety.

We as humans as a species are not robotic automatons (as people of CoBF maybe would like us to be) we need engineers but we also need artists. We need hard nosed mathematicians and we need bleeding heart sociologists. It's like an yin-yang thing. One doesn't work too long without the other.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 24, 2017, 10:22:45 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Ok let me try to keep most of the stark out so I don't piss off any more people.

Not everything has to be a political liberal vs conservative thing. So you point out an idiot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Other times an idiot is just an idiot. Should we just outlaw all the things some don't like? Like humanities? I think Jeff Imlet was an idiot. Should we outlaw CEOs?

Maybe that doesn't make much sense so let me take another track. Poetry. I don't like poetry. I don't get it. I hated it in school. If poets and poetry weren't around my odds with girls will likely be increased (I actually tried to write one once... sad). I don't think any poets made any money ever. So it's a totally uneconomic activity. At the same time poetry has been with us for millennia. So it's pretty obvious that humanity and society for some reason needs poets just as it needs engineers (even though engineering is a more lucrative profession). So as much as the efficient animal in me would like to eliminate poets and poetry the analytical human in me recognizes that for some reason they are necessary for the proper functioning of the species and scoiety.

We as humans as a species are not robotic automatons (as people of CoBF maybe would like us to be) we need engineers but we also need artists. We need hard nosed mathematicians and we need bleeding heart sociologists. It's like an yin-yang thing. One doesn't work too long without the other.

I agree with you that there is a value in the humanities...I just think that in their current form they are so destructive, misleading and useless as to be not worth preserving.

I also find your argument confusing. You seem to be equating Art to the study of humanities in universities and saying that without funding the universities we won't have poetry. But great Art has almost never come out of universities. The two have nothing to do with each other.

As for sociologists...I can't actually think of anything of enduring value that has come from the field. I'm also not sure how sociology is supposed to fit in to a Western society. In China's its very clear to me that there is value in sociology. But I don't even get how its used in the US or Canada in any sort of positive manner. I am genuinely curious. Does anyone know?
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 25, 2017, 01:01:14 AM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Ok let me try to keep most of the stark out so I don't piss off any more people.

Not everything has to be a political liberal vs conservative thing. So you point out an idiot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Other times an idiot is just an idiot. Should we just outlaw all the things some don't like? Like humanities? I think Jeff Imlet was an idiot. Should we outlaw CEOs?

Maybe that doesn't make much sense so let me take another track. Poetry. I don't like poetry. I don't get it. I hated it in school. If poets and poetry weren't around my odds with girls will likely be increased (I actually tried to write one once... sad). I don't think any poets made any money ever. So it's a totally uneconomic activity. At the same time poetry has been with us for millennia. So it's pretty obvious that humanity and society for some reason needs poets just as it needs engineers (even though engineering is a more lucrative profession). So as much as the efficient animal in me would like to eliminate poets and poetry the analytical human in me recognizes that for some reason they are necessary for the proper functioning of the species and scoiety.

We as humans as a species are not robotic automatons (as people of CoBF maybe would like us to be) we need engineers but we also need artists. We need hard nosed mathematicians and we need bleeding heart sociologists. It's like an yin-yang thing. One doesn't work too long without the other.

I agree with you that there is a value in the humanities...I just think that in their current form they are so destructive, misleading and useless as to be not worth preserving.

I also find your argument confusing. You seem to be equating Art to the study of humanities in universities and saying that without funding the universities we won't have poetry. But great Art has almost never come out of universities. The two have nothing to do with each other.

As for sociologists...I can't actually think of anything of enduring value that has come from the field. I'm also not sure how sociology is supposed to fit in to a Western society. In China's its very clear to me that there is value in sociology. But I don't even get how its used in the US or Canada in any sort of positive manner. I am genuinely curious. Does anyone know?

Rukawa firstly an apogology because I mistakenly hit the report button on your email as I was scrolling up on my iPad to respond. Not sure what happens, but if Sanjeev’s Men in Black show up just tell them what happened.

Anyway, when I found out midway through my 5 year law degree that I wanted to pursue my hobby of value investing I had a conversation with the head of PWC, head of the largest bank, ex Minister of Finance and largest commodity in and exporter in the country I was studying on what to do, because there were no formal way of studying for it other than the CFA really. The CFA was also fairly obscure in those days. It was an informal discussion over a beer or two and the conversation eventually turned to the value of a university education.

It was eventually concluded that the value does not lie in was is taught in the class room, but lies in the fact that you learn important social skills, not in sociology, but in the constant social interaction with people which is generally a bigger part of university life than classes. It was also thought that the network what these guys built at Uni served them very well in later life. Lastly, you get to learn now to manage and work under pressure, because you have to juggle a decent work load with a generally busy life, which is an important skill set to acquire at that stage of your life.

If the above is broadly the case then I’m just not convinced you need to spend 5 years of your life and a truck load of money to acquire those skills if they are really that important.

P.S. I did take Sociology and for the life of me cannot remember anything I was taught or how it applied. Compare that versus reading “Influence the Psychology of Persuasion” and it seems like weighing a feather versus a bar of gold. Took Sociology for 3 years, cost a lot of money versus $20 or so and few hours to read the book.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 25, 2017, 01:22:30 AM
It seems that there has been a slide by the two institutions mentioned here, UT & Laurier to fuzzy thinking or a warm mush of socialist ideas. It is also noteworthy that UT used to be under the Control of the Church of England and Laurier started life as “ Evangelical Lutheran Seminary of Canada “. You see the same pattern at Yale, Harvard, Oxford etc. 

Certainly setting society up differently than 50 years ago.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 25, 2017, 02:22:21 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 25, 2017, 04:24:41 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P

The other thing I'll say, is that in my mind it isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's an issue of the "elites" of all stripes creating rentier institutions that gut many financially, often with little reward. There is value in the universities in scientific research departments, but the value proposition for new recruits is less and less attractive all the time more generally and the universities ARE used to appeal to authority on many matters on which they are not qualified to do so.

These are the same sort of crew who came up with and are still trying to sell us the Efficient Market Hypothesis. What's important to know is that unlike the harder sciences, sociology is mostly made up and can change substantially with new inputs. An education system dictating those inputs, in my view, jams the evolutionary flow of ideas in society by promoting its own ideas at the expense of others, for its means and the means of its benefactors.

It doesn't matter to me whether it's liberal or conservative; monopolies on credentialing and what ideas are permitted leads to intellectual decay and rot. When it's done for the enrichment of a few or the centralization of society to enforce "beneficial" cultural norms, both are dangerous.

Unconditional loyalty to institutions, whether university, church, political party, sports team, etc. is a surefire way to get taken advantage of... bigly.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 25, 2017, 05:32:01 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P

The other thing I'll say, is that in my mind it isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's an issue of the "elites" of all stripes creating rentier institutions that gut many financially, often with little reward. There is value in the universities in scientific research departments, but the value proposition for new recruits is less and less attractive all the time more generally and the universities ARE used to appeal to authority on many matters on which they are not qualified to do so.

These are the same sort of crew who came up with and are still trying to sell us the Efficient Market Hypothesis. What's important to know is that unlike the harder sciences, sociology is mostly made up and can change substantially with new inputs. An education system dictating those inputs, in my view, jams the evolutionary flow of ideas in society by promoting its own ideas at the expense of others, for its means and the means of its benefactors.

It doesn't matter to me whether it's liberal or conservative; monopolies on credentialing and what ideas are permitted leads to intellectual decay and rot. When it's done for the enrichment of a few or the centralization of society to enforce "beneficial" cultural norms, both are dangerous.

Unconditional loyalty to institutions, whether university, church, political party, sports team, etc. is a surefire way to get taken advantage of... bigly.

Great last line.
Also St John's College has always intrigued me. As I understand it you basically spend three years reading what is thought to be great books and having group discussions. Just googled the list and well worth a look to understand what they're trying to achieve https://lettersrepublic.wordpress.com/sjc/ I see the quran is missing, I thought that used to be on the list too. Anyway if you going to spend your time at Uni, this might be one of the better ways of doing it.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 25, 2017, 06:03:53 AM
Higher Ground

Want to get your degree in engineering,
Straight as an arrow through higher learning,
But soft stuff and even poetry,
May have some kind of utility,
An open mind building opportunity,
As the brain tends to lose its plasticity.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on November 25, 2017, 08:46:05 AM
Engineering schools traditionally 'make' their students take at least 1-2 'sociology' classes as electives - to round them out. As throughout history, and across cultures, many of the best engineers (Oppenheimer Da Vinci, Brunel, Jobs, etc.) in their generation have also had some 'sociology' background - it's hard to argue against the basic sense of this. Of course - 'student' engineers hate it.

I did 2 political science classes, primarily because the girls looked great. A truly useless subject as taught by the professor; but very useful when I compared the frameworks against what I had seen in other parts of the world, and the odd riot or two. Ultimately I was glad I took the subject, played the game, took my A's, and moved on. The problem wasn't the subject, it was the professors.

In much of academia the best do, and the rest teach. When numbers were small the best did rigorous & very good research, while the rest taught material that was relatively unknown - & therefore 'new'. With technology & bigger numbers; the research now lacks rigor, and the rest teach 'ancient' material that is often better presented on the internet. It's not the subjects, it's the people.

Ivory towers haven't moved with the times, and unfortunately we're all now paying for it.
Sadly, there are never enough vandals when you want them!

SD
 
   
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: cubsfan on November 25, 2017, 08:51:11 AM
In much of academia the best do, and the rest teach.

It's not the subjects, it's the people.


Hear, Hear !
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Rainforesthiker on November 25, 2017, 12:31:39 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Ok let me try to keep most of the stark out so I don't piss off any more people.

Not everything has to be a political liberal vs conservative thing. So you point out an idiot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Other times an idiot is just an idiot. Should we just outlaw all the things some don't like? Like humanities? I think Jeff Imlet was an idiot. Should we outlaw CEOs?

Maybe that doesn't make much sense so let me take another track. Poetry. I don't like poetry. I don't get it. I hated it in school. If poets and poetry weren't around my odds with girls will likely be increased (I actually tried to write one once... sad). I don't think any poets made any money ever. So it's a totally uneconomic activity. At the same time poetry has been with us for millennia. So it's pretty obvious that humanity and society for some reason needs poets just as it needs engineers (even though engineering is a more lucrative profession). So as much as the efficient animal in me would like to eliminate poets and poetry the analytical human in me recognizes that for some reason they are necessary for the proper functioning of the species and scoiety.

We as humans as a species are not robotic automatons (as people of CoBF maybe would like us to be) we need engineers but we also need artists. We need hard nosed mathematicians and we need bleeding heart sociologists. It's like an yin-yang thing. One doesn't work too long without the other.

There is a pretty wide divide between “outlawing something” vs. saying that the state should not forcibly extract money from people through threat of violence to pay for things they don’t want.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: no_free_lunch on November 26, 2017, 06:12:03 AM
The problem is that Jordan Peterson is only controversial because protestors have MADE him controversial.  I just see him as a faculty member who wants to debate.  However, as we have seen even on this thread, protest alone is enough to put him in this grey area where his views shouldn't be aired.

So we have cause (protest something you don't like) and effect (it is now considered controversial) and the far left learns that they can shut down the opposing view point.

Let me then draw my own conclusion.  As people internalize this capability of protest they escalate it.  I think this type of thinking leads to tactics like the violence used against Trump supporters in the US.  People showing up at rallies and beating on anyone with a red hat, macing people, etc.  It is then backed up by the intellectual left in the media ("violence at trump rally", without mentioning that it was protesters beating on trump supporters) or by sympathetic government officials (stand down orders to the police).  You better believe I think this is an issue.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 26, 2017, 11:58:28 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P

The other thing I'll say, is that in my mind it isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's an issue of the "elites" of all stripes creating rentier institutions that gut many financially, often with little reward. There is value in the universities in scientific research departments, but the value proposition for new recruits is less and less attractive all the time more generally and the universities ARE used to appeal to authority on many matters on which they are not qualified to do so.

These are the same sort of crew who came up with and are still trying to sell us the Efficient Market Hypothesis. What's important to know is that unlike the harder sciences, sociology is mostly made up and can change substantially with new inputs. An education system dictating those inputs, in my view, jams the evolutionary flow of ideas in society by promoting its own ideas at the expense of others, for its means and the means of its benefactors.

It doesn't matter to me whether it's liberal or conservative; monopolies on credentialing and what ideas are permitted leads to intellectual decay and rot. When it's done for the enrichment of a few or the centralization of society to enforce "beneficial" cultural norms, both are dangerous.

Unconditional loyalty to institutions, whether university, church, political party, sports team, etc. is a surefire way to get taken advantage of... bigly.

Great last line.
Also St John's College has always intrigued me. As I understand it you basically spend three years reading what is thought to be great books and having group discussions. Just googled the list and well worth a look to understand what they're trying to achieve https://lettersrepublic.wordpress.com/sjc/ I see the quran is missing, I thought that used to be on the list too. Anyway if you going to spend your time at Uni, this might be one of the better ways of doing it.

That seems like an interesting place; alternative educations are, to my mind, one of the most useful forms of R&D out there.

One thing I'll say about this Jordan Peterson thing is that he does not appear to dislike transgender people at all. Reading up on him, he's seemingly willing to identify people as male/female (whichever role they're portraying) but believes that the addition of dozens of new gender identifiers makes it untenable to keep track of, if use is mandated. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable position to me.

When you create new gender identifiers, you're making an attempt to morph sociology with one of those "new inputs" I talked about earlier. I, personally, don't have any problem with this. This is the evolutionary flow of ideas at work; ideas created and "tested" to see which ones win out in the market of ideas. The issue comes in when that market is not allowed to fulfill its purpose, I suppose; by mandating the acceptable of an idea, it is not as thoroughly tested as it would be if it had to duke it out in the gladiator's pit like the rest of them.

Notably, Mr. B, you and I are on two opposite ends of the spectrum here. You appear to be a man who takes his faith quite seriously; I have no faith in any god, and am a gender dysphoric person myself. To me this has nothing to do with identity, but rather intellectual humility and an openness to new and conflicting ideas.

The trans community should absolutely be allowed to attempt to morph sociology as it wishes, including the creation of new gender identifiers, but so too may other groups attempt to morph the clay of sociology into whatever image they so desire. And of course, you cannot force another to live with your own world view.

To me this is the opposite side of the coin of the NFL protests here in the United States. In our situation, it has been political nationalists trying to tell the rest of us what we can and can't do because it's "disrespectful of the flag" or "disrespectful of military service." Neither of those should be granted immunity from sociological criticism either; those who try to deny athletes their right to expression are authoritarians in the same manner of the universities going after Mr. Peterson.

I feel we are in dangerous times as far as ideology goes; both liberal and conservative ideologies have been moving to become increasingly authoritarian and it is something I am watching very closely.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 26, 2017, 12:30:14 PM
"I feel we are in dangerous times as far as ideology goes; both liberal and conservative ideologies have been moving to become increasingly authoritarian and it is something I am watching very closely."

http://www.people-press.org/interactives/political-polarization-1994-2017/

Disclosure:
-believe in cycles
-trying to understand mean reverting forces

Consistent is nice but "mixed" consistency may have enduring advantages.
In history, new ideas have come up in university circles. Not seeing it right now. Will keep watching too.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 26, 2017, 02:14:11 PM
Found a pretty interesting discussion with Jordan Peterson and Camille Paglia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hIVnmUdXM
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: EliG on November 26, 2017, 03:14:55 PM
Interesting thread by Noah Smith (@Noahpinion):

https://twitter.com/Noahpinion/status/934827937068589057
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 27, 2017, 05:38:00 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P

The other thing I'll say, is that in my mind it isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's an issue of the "elites" of all stripes creating rentier institutions that gut many financially, often with little reward. There is value in the universities in scientific research departments, but the value proposition for new recruits is less and less attractive all the time more generally and the universities ARE used to appeal to authority on many matters on which they are not qualified to do so.

These are the same sort of crew who came up with and are still trying to sell us the Efficient Market Hypothesis. What's important to know is that unlike the harder sciences, sociology is mostly made up and can change substantially with new inputs. An education system dictating those inputs, in my view, jams the evolutionary flow of ideas in society by promoting its own ideas at the expense of others, for its means and the means of its benefactors.

It doesn't matter to me whether it's liberal or conservative; monopolies on credentialing and what ideas are permitted leads to intellectual decay and rot. When it's done for the enrichment of a few or the centralization of society to enforce "beneficial" cultural norms, both are dangerous.

Unconditional loyalty to institutions, whether university, church, political party, sports team, etc. is a surefire way to get taken advantage of... bigly.

Great last line.
Also St John's College has always intrigued me. As I understand it you basically spend three years reading what is thought to be great books and having group discussions. Just googled the list and well worth a look to understand what they're trying to achieve https://lettersrepublic.wordpress.com/sjc/ I see the quran is missing, I thought that used to be on the list too. Anyway if you going to spend your time at Uni, this might be one of the better ways of doing it.

That seems like an interesting place; alternative educations are, to my mind, one of the most useful forms of R&D out there.

One thing I'll say about this Jordan Peterson thing is that he does not appear to dislike transgender people at all. Reading up on him, he's seemingly willing to identify people as male/female (whichever role they're portraying) but believes that the addition of dozens of new gender identifiers makes it untenable to keep track of, if use is mandated. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable position to me.

When you create new gender identifiers, you're making an attempt to morph sociology with one of those "new inputs" I talked about earlier. I, personally, don't have any problem with this. This is the evolutionary flow of ideas at work; ideas created and "tested" to see which ones win out in the market of ideas. The issue comes in when that market is not allowed to fulfill its purpose, I suppose; by mandating the acceptable of an idea, it is not as thoroughly tested as it would be if it had to duke it out in the gladiator's pit like the rest of them.

Notably, Mr. B, you and I are on two opposite ends of the spectrum here. You appear to be a man who takes his faith quite seriously; I have no faith in any god, and am a gender dysphoric person myself. To me this has nothing to do with identity, but rather intellectual humility and an openness to new and conflicting ideas.

The trans community should absolutely be allowed to attempt to morph sociology as it wishes, including the creation of new gender identifiers, but so too may other groups attempt to morph the clay of sociology into whatever image they so desire. And of course, you cannot force another to live with your own world view.

To me this is the opposite side of the coin of the NFL protests here in the United States. In our situation, it has been political nationalists trying to tell the rest of us what we can and can't do because it's "disrespectful of the flag" or "disrespectful of military service." Neither of those should be granted immunity from sociological criticism either; those who try to deny athletes their right to expression are authoritarians in the same manner of the universities going after Mr. Peterson.

I feel we are in dangerous times as far as ideology goes; both liberal and conservative ideologies have been moving to become increasingly authoritarian and it is something I am watching very closely.

I recently finished a book "Defying Hitler", which is a memoir written over the decades leading up to 1933. What makes it so fascinating is the fact there are so few books written "in the moment" about these mind bending, large, historical social disasters. Almost all books are reconstructions after the fact, which does not equip you as  well to spot the lead up to another one of these events. Your comments ring true unfortunately in the context of the book and the basic steps leading up to Genocide http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8stagesofgenocide.html. There are certainly more "classification" and "symbolization" going on than a few years ago. However as long as there are enough people that are willing to reach across various social divides and respect others' differences then all should be well.  I do however think it is naive to assume we will never repeat such mistakes again and the trade off is asymmetric. Blank Swan event if you will and in large part the trick to avoid it is to pay attention; little to be lost by doing it and a lot of humanity to be gained.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: maxthetrade on December 01, 2017, 11:35:50 AM
Here is an excerpt related to this subject from Chris Leithner's excellent letter:

"What ails Western nations? Today, most rulers and their puppets in the media
and universities are, in effect, Marxists; specifically, they’re useful idiots (examples
are countless; recent ones include this, this, this, this and this).2 They incessantly spout cant such as “diversity,” “equality” and “sustainability” as means to
impose an evil ideology upon the ruled. For their part, most of the benighted,
having suffered years of indoctrination (the anointed cunningly mislabel it “education”)
and egged by the media, demand that their rulers supply more Marxism!"

http://www.chrisleithner.ca/newsletter/2016-2018/oct17_newsletter.pdf

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on December 02, 2017, 05:18:14 AM
These people have this very narrow lense through which they view the world. As a non-white man I cringe whenever they turn every issue into a power struggle against white supremacy / patriarchy. The message is just getting old... Can't these people be any more creative??
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 02, 2017, 04:08:41 PM
Just read this which is tangentially related:
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/mar/07/warren-buffett-climate-change-insurance-policy-berkshire-hathaway-shareholder-letter

I am really really shocked that this guy is a professor at Michigan.

Quote
As the rate of global warming increases, so will the rate of climate change-related disasters – and presumably the rate of insurance payouts. It’s a lot easier to make money off of declining risks – as in the case of auto accidents – than increasing risks, as in the case of climate change.

Advertisement

Of course, Buffett argues that insurance prices can be adjusted upwards each year to take account of new climate information that emerges. But if climate change is accelerating, even a yearly “true-up” in insurance rates will not be enough to protect insurance company profit margins. Current rates will always lag behind accelerating growth in damages and claims. The annual adjustment will merely slow down the widening gap between them. Airlines illustrate just how hard it can be to keep rates rising in step with fluctuations in jet fuel prices.

Its seems that if your a leftist professor parroting leftist ideas you can essentially say whatever bullshit you want. How the fuck is it even possible to be this stupid. AND THIS IS A FREAKING PROFESSOR. This is all he does everyday. I mean WTF?!
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 02, 2017, 09:26:26 PM
I am really really shocked that this guy is a professor at Michigan.

Its seems that if your a leftist professor parroting leftist ideas you can essentially say whatever bullshit you want. How the fuck is it even possible to be this stupid. AND THIS IS A FREAKING PROFESSOR. This is all he does everyday. I mean WTF?!

The sitting president of the U.S. has serious credibility issues and offers Twitter-proof of his ignorance on a regular basis.  But you're shocked that a guy with outstanding academic credentials is a professor at Michigan?  And you're ready to  declare him too-stupid-to-be-human based on a naive lay article he wrote for the Guardian?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't know the guy.    From his CV I'd guess that he's the kind of academic player that I loathe. Too many of his papers have colons in their titles for my liking. (Titular Colons: Indicators of Bullshit or Innocuous Dots?)  But your visceral knee-jerk reaction really puzzles me. 

And what leftist idea is this (presumably) leftist professor parroting?   Climate change?   



Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 04, 2017, 11:00:08 AM
The sitting president of the U.S. has serious credibility issues and offers Twitter-proof of his ignorance on a regular basis.  But you're shocked that a guy with outstanding academic credentials is a professor at Michigan?  And you're ready to  declare him too-stupid-to-be-human based on a naive lay article he wrote for the Guardian?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't know the guy.    From his CV I'd guess that he's the kind of academic player that I loathe. Too many of his papers have colons in their titles for my liking. (Titular Colons: Indicators of Bullshit or Innocuous Dots?)  But your visceral knee-jerk reaction really puzzles me. 

And what leftist idea is this (presumably) leftist professor parroting?   Climate change?

The leftist idea is that climate change is very bad thing that can only have bad consequences. This is the only way you end up concluding that something which is obviously good for the insurance industry is actually bad for them. The left is attempting to use climate change advocacy to advocate for large changes in the way corporations operate. Hence this guy's critique of Warren Buffet for not realizing the dangers of climate change.

And yes I'm shocked. The president gets elected by a popularity contest. I have no surprise at getting someone like Trump. The same as I'm not shocked that Venezuela once elected Hugo Chavez. Or Iranians voted for Islamic theocracy.

OTOH, Professors are educated at universities which are highly selective. Its not like everyone gets into Stanford. Or gets a PhD there. Or becomes a professor. The whole process is gruelling and difficult. I know brilliant people who never got professorships. So yes it surprises me that this guy did in the same way I would be surprised if a 50 year old fat slob was running the 100 meter in the Olympics.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 05, 2017, 05:35:51 PM
https://nypost.com/2017/12/05/wisconsin-closer-to-drug-testing-adults-applying-for-food-stamps/

This is what's going on in the universities, the cities, and the country. Somehow there are folks who think it is unconstitutional to require that people receiving handouts not be dopeheads. How anyone is opposed to this is mind boggling. Critics say it's an unreasonable search? I consider my taxes going to druggies an unreasonable seizures of assets. 
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 05, 2017, 06:57:23 PM
I was reading about the professor Eric Clanton who is being charged with assualt because he his several pro-Trump protesters with a bicycle lock. What i find interesting is his biography:

Quote
BIOGRAPHY: Eric received an MA in philosophy from San Francisco State University. There he studied environmental ethics and virtue theory. His studies there concerning philosophies of punishment and prison industrial complex were particularly radicalizing. Since graduating he has been teaching part-time at an energetic and diverse community college (Diablo Valley College). He also volunteers with the Prison University Project at San Quentin teaching writing and critical analysis. Eric is an anarchist trying to escalate his commitment to total revolution through writing, teaching, analysis, and other creative forms of action.

How exactly is this not political advocacy. Its not even masquerading. Its out and out political far left political advocacy. Why should we support universities if they have become radical left-wing indoctrination centers.

Lets see how long it take me to find left-wing political advocacy at U of T...2 minutes
http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/sje/People/Faculty/674/John_Portelli.html

York? 1 minute:
http://people.laps.yorku.ca/people.nsf/facultydirectory?readForm&unit=sosc

Waterloo? 1 minute:
https://uwaterloo.ca/stories/risky-business-investigating-power-and-privilege-classroom

Ok....now lets make this harder because its just too freaking easy. Rotman business school. Surely one cannot find left-wing advocacy at a freaking business school. WRONG:
http://www-2.rotman.utoronto.ca/facbios/file/RiveraTilcsik.pdf
http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/-/media/Files/Programs-and-Areas/GenderEconomy/GenderEconomy-Partnerships.pdf?la=en

Here is my exercise of the day:
Find a left-wing accounting professor who advocates for some form of left-wing accounting at a Canadian University. This should be a hard one.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 05, 2017, 07:54:34 PM
The leftist idea is that climate change is very bad thing that can only have bad consequences. This is the only way you end up concluding that something which is obviously good for the insurance industry is actually bad for them. The left is attempting to use climate change advocacy to advocate for large changes in the way corporations operate. Hence this guy's critique of Warren Buffet for not realizing the dangers of climate change.

And yes I'm shocked. The president gets elected by a popularity contest. I have no surprise at getting someone like Trump. The same as I'm not shocked that Venezuela once elected Hugo Chavez. Or Iranians voted for Islamic theocracy.

OTOH, Professors are educated at universities which are highly selective. Its not like everyone gets into Stanford. Or gets a PhD there. Or becomes a professor. The whole process is gruelling and difficult. I know brilliant people who never got professorships. So yes it surprises me that this guy did in the same way I would be surprised if a 50 year old fat slob was running the 100 meter in the Olympics.

I can't tell whether you're trying to be semantically careful in your description of what is leftist.  It's certainly not a leftist idea that climate change could be a very bad thing, with potentially dire consequences.  By extension, it's a perfectly rational (not leftist) idea to proceed with caution and make changes wherever possible.  Of course the scope of those changes is the sticking point.   I guess it's leftist to say something like "we need to shut down all the factories", in the same sense that it's rightist to say "we need to shut down immigration".  I personally feel those opinions are just ignorant rather than leftist / rightist.

My point about the prof getting hired is that his qualifications are impeccable.  Of course he got hired.  And promoted. And distinguished -- by many institutions, both academic and corporate.  You've decided he's too stupid to breathe based on a short article in the Guardian, ignoring all other evidence to the contrary.  I guess I just find your level of conviction to be very strange. For instance, there's the remote possibility that you're wrong and the guy is actually able to tie his shoes.

This comes back to big issues like climate change, too.  I'm often surprised how much confidence people have in their views, based on what I consider to be limited evidence.  My father-in-law  doesn't even know how thunder works and yet he's perfectly happy to pass judgement on the science of climate change. 

I suppose it's not surprising to find a lot of (over)confidence and strong opinions on COBF, given that the very nature of value investing is to be contrarian.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 05, 2017, 08:55:42 PM
I was reading about the professor Eric Clanton who is being charged with assualt because he his several pro-Trump protesters with a bicycle lock. What i find interesting is his biography:

Quote
BIOGRAPHY: Eric received an MA in philosophy from San Francisco State University. There he studied environmental ethics and virtue theory. His studies there concerning philosophies of punishment and prison industrial complex were particularly radicalizing. Since graduating he has been teaching part-time at an energetic and diverse community college (Diablo Valley College). He also volunteers with the Prison University Project at San Quentin teaching writing and critical analysis. Eric is an anarchist trying to escalate his commitment to total revolution through writing, teaching, analysis, and other creative forms of action.

How exactly is this not political advocacy. Its not even masquerading. Its out and out political far left political advocacy. Why should we support universities if they have become radical left-wing indoctrination centers.

Lets see how long it take me to find left-wing political advocacy at U of T...2 minutes
http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/sje/People/Faculty/674/John_Portelli.html

York? 1 minute:
http://people.laps.yorku.ca/people.nsf/facultydirectory?readForm&unit=sosc

Waterloo? 1 minute:
https://uwaterloo.ca/stories/risky-business-investigating-power-and-privilege-classroom

Ok....now lets make this harder because its just too freaking easy. Rotman business school. Surely one cannot find left-wing advocacy at a freaking business school. WRONG:
http://www-2.rotman.utoronto.ca/facbios/file/RiveraTilcsik.pdf
http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/-/media/Files/Programs-and-Areas/GenderEconomy/GenderEconomy-Partnerships.pdf?la=en

Here is my exercise of the day:
Find a left-wing accounting professor who advocates for some form of left-wing accounting at a Canadian University. This should be a hard one.

You should ignore drama-queens like Eric Clanton and the like. They're looking for attention (read his bio!!) and will continue to say/do outrageous things until someone notices and feeds their ego.  And this dude isn't exactly a prof at Stanford -- he's a part-time instructor at a community college, and very impressed that he's so "radical".   It's very unlikely his radical ideas have left an indelible imprint on many young minds.

There are people like this of all stripes and of all degrees.  I've seen a few messages here about Jordan Peterson, mostly positive because he aligns more with conservative views.  He's all over YouTube, advocating his heart away, but he is lauded for his effort because he's on "your side".  One poster even  suggested that Peterson wasn't looking for a controversy, or some such thing.  Yes he was.  Yes he is.  He *loves* the camera. 

I don't even understand the beef you have with the U of T guy.  As far as academic nuts go, this guy isn't even on the charts (as far as I can tell).  Did you have a specific problem with something he wrote, or do you just hate the idea that people study things like equity and so on in the classroom?  How did you even find him?  Searching for "social justice professor" or something?

I'm not looking for a fight.  I'm posting because I'm in the academic system, and although I see all sorts of wonky stuff and hear plenty of unicorn-inspired ideas, I think you guys are painting a distorted picture of reality on campus. More importantly, I feel there are bigger issues.  Principally, there are simply too many people going to university these days.   The universities, particularly those at the lower end, have responded to the diluted talent pool by getting pretty creative with academic programs.  I do think it's important to have some intelligent people looking into matters such as equity in education, etc.  But trying to grow enrolment in undergraduate programs like "social justice education" strikes me as disingenuous.  And what's happening in STEM subjects is worrying for different reasons.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 06, 2017, 03:43:31 AM
There are people like this of all stripes and of all degrees.  I've seen a few messages here about Jordan Peterson, mostly positive because he aligns more with conservative views.  He's all over YouTube, advocating his heart away, but he is lauded for his effort because he's on "your side".  One poster even  suggested that Peterson wasn't looking for a controversy, or some such thing.  Yes he was.  Yes he is.  He *loves* the camera. 

I don't even understand the beef you have with the U of T guy.  As far as academic nuts go, this guy isn't even on the charts (as far as I can tell).  Did you have a specific problem with something he wrote, or do you just hate the idea that people study things like equity and so on in the classroom?  How did you even find him?  Searching for "social justice professor" or something?

Here is Jordan Peterson's curriculum vitae and classes. Please point any papers or classes you consider blatant political advocacy:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jordan_Peterson2/2
https://jordanbpeterson.com/classes/


Jordan Peterson posts youtube videos on his own time. Its not affiliated with any university. I don't have a problem with people advocating for whatever in their own time and space. It should not be something they are teaching or research papers, conferences etc. That is the difference. And its a huge one. I also don't think it should be that easy to find this. The University should be a place where 90% of people are not political and there are a few people doing political advocacy on their own time...just like any other profession. That is indeed what the university looked like in the 1950's.

Today I was trying to examine the Human Rights Tribunals to see if they are as badly run as those on my side frequently say they are. I examined maybe 20 cases and could not find a single one where I disagreed with a single decision. It was actually really well run. I would challenge you to spend 20 minutes on here:
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onhrt/ and find a single badly decided case. ITS REALLY FREAKIN DIFFICULT.

Contrast that with universities where its very easy to find bad scholarship and outright political advocacy.

Quote
I'm posting because I'm in the academic system, and although I see all sorts of wonky stuff and hear plenty of unicorn-inspired ideas, I think you guys are painting a distorted picture of reality on campus.

You haven't explained why. My point is that a large part of universities function as left-wing indoctrination centers and I've provided extremely easy to obtain evidence that is the case on university websites. And I did it in minutes. It should not be this easy.. The only case where I had to use Google was Rotman...all the rest where based on just clicking a couple of departmental links in departments I knew would be indoctrination centers: Education, Social Justice, Women Studies, Criminology, Sociology, Anthropology, Anti-Colonial studies, Middle East Studies. I mean I didn't even search hard...I almost always find something withiout Google. Rotman was the hard one. Take 5 minutes and try it....go to any departmental website that you would expect would have this shit.

Quote
I don't even understand the beef you have with the U of T guy.  As far as academic nuts go, this guy isn't even on the charts (as far as I can tell).  Did you have a specific problem with something he wrote, or do you just hate the idea that people study things like equity and so on in the classroom?  How did you even find him?  Searching for "social justice professor" or something?

I found him by going straight to OISE (U of T's education department) which I knew would have an extremely left-wing agenda. I didn't use Google. My problem with the guy is that he says stuff like opposing a "neoliberal agenda". Which is political advocacy in an academic journal. I don't see any reason why an academic journal should have an article like the following unless as I have stated repeatedly its political advocacy pretending to be scholarship:
"Critical Democracy and Educational Leadership Issues: Philosophical Responses to the Neoliberal Agenda "

The above should be the title of a talk by Naomi Klein...not a research article written by an education professor.

As I said, in the 1950's you would have a very difficult time finding this sort of garbage. You still had left-wing professors who had left-wing type of ideas like for instance Veblen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen

But I draw a massive distinction between someone like Veblen who in my view as a serious academic trying to understand the nature of consumption and today's scholarship which is just blatant outright left-wing indoctrination without any real value beyond that.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on December 06, 2017, 05:37:58 AM
From a few posts above:
"This is what's going on in the universities, the cities, and the country. Somehow there are folks who think it is unconstitutional to require that people receiving handouts not be dopeheads. How anyone is opposed to this is mind boggling. Critics say it's an unreasonable search? I consider my taxes going to druggies an unreasonable seizures of assets."

Read that comment last night as I was watching a TV report on addiction problems in Manchester county in Kentucky and Beaver county in Pennsylvania and how the "problem" was being addressed. Food stamps candidates. Interesting perspectives: including from the "experts" in universities but also community leaders (and also the addicts themselves and their children too). Solutions don't appear so easy and I understand that the counties are suing pharma companies in order to pay for the medical and rehab care in a way that is not unlike what was done in the cigarette industry and in a context that seems to be promoted by the present administration in order to deal with what is described as a national priority.

What's the point and what's the relevance with this thread?

My understanding is that the SNAP program has a long and tortuous history. There is a lot of data coming out of universities concerning its efficacy and its relevance (or absence thereof). The interesting aspect about the numerous studies is that you can read them and decide to accept or reject the conclusions. It seems that the assumptions underlying some conclusions include that 1-addiction problems are concentrated in SNAP recipients and 2-addiction "causes" dependency. A review of well done university studies don't support these assumptions as stated. Interesting to see that one of the biggest risk factor for drug addiction is to be a white male aged 18 to 24.

What leads to addiction and how to get out of it are not well understood at this point.

There are also many well done university studies showing that drug testing is likely not a cost effective approach whatever political opinion one may have.

As with all phenomena, incentives matter. Perhaps wise to cautiously use a carrot and stick approach.

Opinion: Indiscriminate use of an ideological stick approach may lead to disenchantment that may be eventually funnelled into an undesirable reactionary movement.
Opinion: I continue to have difficulty understanding why there was an opportunity to devise and maintain the SNAP program in the US and wish that it will be phased out eventually. Maybe the solution has something to do with opportunity, mobility and inclusive growth.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cardboard on December 06, 2017, 05:54:44 AM
"You haven't explained why."

Here is my answer: when you get paid by the state, you support an ever larger government to get a larger slice of the pie. And there is also a "system" in place to get you in the gang.

One of my friend is a high school teacher. However, he is quite unique as he does not complain about his salary, size of class, nor advocate for unions, strikes and the like. He does not tell you garbage such as: "This is what you think that our childrens are worth?" If one looks at it with no emotion, Canadian teachers actually earn a very good salary + benefits relative to population and hours worked.

There was a vote recently and he intended to go vote at the union`s meeting. However, unless you attend the 15 to 30 minutes, prior to the real meeting agenda, of what he called: brainwashing, you are not allowed in with the doors locked.

That is democracy in the Leftist world.

Cardboard
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 06, 2017, 06:01:41 AM
"You haven't explained why."

Here is my answer: when you get paid by the state, you support an ever larger government to get a larger slice of the pie. And there is also a "system" in place to get you in the gang.

One of my friend is a high school teacher. However, he is quite unique as he does not complain about his salary, size of class, nor advocate for unions, strikes and the like. He does not tell you garbage such as: "This is what you think that our childrens are worth?" If one looks at it with no emotion, Canadian teachers actually earn a very good salary + benefits relative to population and hours worked.

There was a vote recently and he intented to go vote at the union`s meeting. However, unless you attend the 15 to 30 minutes prior to the real meeting agenda of what he called: brainwashing, you are not allowed in with the doors locked.

That is democracy in the Leftist world.

Cardboard

You have the right to vote the way we want you to.  Just like the leftist idea of the freedom of speech is: You have the right to say only the things we agree with.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 06, 2017, 09:25:49 AM
"You haven't explained why."

Here is my answer: when you get paid by the state, you support an ever larger government to get a larger slice of the pie. And there is also a "system" in place to get you in the gang.

One of my friend is a high school teacher. However, he is quite unique as he does not complain about his salary, size of class, nor advocate for unions, strikes and the like. He does not tell you garbage such as: "This is what you think that our childrens are worth?" If one looks at it with no emotion, Canadian teachers actually earn a very good salary + benefits relative to population and hours worked.

There was a vote recently and he intended to go vote at the union`s meeting. However, unless you attend the 15 to 30 minutes, prior to the real meeting agenda, of what he called: brainwashing, you are not allowed in with the doors locked.

That is democracy in the Leftist world.

Cardboard

Unclear if your response to "You haven't explained why" is in reference to me.  If so, then you're making a biased assumption. And I have no idea what you mean by a "system" that helps people get into the "gang".

In any case, I explicitly said that the larger problem at universities is that we have too many students; i.e. universities are too focused on growth, and society is too focused on sending everyone to university.  This is the opposite of supporting an ever larger institution.  I think the model has to change.  I'm afraid it won't until there's a fiscal emergency.   

All of this hand-wringing about leftists at universities seems to me to be a huge distraction.  I haven't studied the issue. It's just my opinion based on observations from within the system. 

There have always been fads in the softer side of academics  -- philosophy, education, etc. They catch more air today because the system is so much bigger than it was decades ago.  There's just more room for questionable programs of study. (Back to my point about too many students.)  But it's not at all clear to me that the indoctrination you're talking about is really taking place on campus to any substantial degree.  We have some wingnuts around.  Everyone knows them because they make a point of being known.  But students generally recognize them for what they are. An 18 year old who has elected to major in Social Justice will likely experience some echo-chamber effect, where their ideas are cemented rather than challenged. That's not good, admittedly. But students taking such courses as by-products of other pursuits (ie. a mandatory sociology elective) are unlikely to be affected by some ranting left-wing loonie.  By the time the kids arrive on campus they already have pretty well established views on equity, GLBTQ rights, etc.   

Compare this to a brilliant egoist like Jordan Peterson.   I happen to agree with a lot of his views, and so I don't think he's doing people harm.  But the fact that students describe his courses as "life changing" speaks to the power he wields in their social development.   I've never heard anybody say such things about our local wingnuts.  Incidentally, I'm not in the humanities, but I think Peterson makes some interesting points about how postmodernism has undermined the whole area.

I agree with some other posters here who argue that university administrations (and some faculty) are not doing enough to stand up for free expression.  It seems that you just need a few students to protest something and the admin will fold, afraid of bad press coverage.  And they all-too-happily add extra layers of inefficiency in a misguided effort to avoid conflict or appease special interests; e.g. recognizing the First Nations at the beginning of every major meeting,.

...

Canadian teacher salaries are generally very good, and in some cases (Ontario) they are exceptionally good, particularly when pension is taken into consideration.  But most teachers I know feel they're fairly paid. And I've never heard one equate their salary with children's well-being.  Unfortunately, this has become typical union talk.  In a recent contract dispute, every teacher I spoke with was embarrassed by their union's behaviour.  So your friend is far from unique.   (And if he was barred illegally from voting at a union meeting then he should do something about it.  That's a huge deal.)

"That's democracy in a leftist world,"  is a punchy tagline.  A while ago, under Harper's government, some colleagues were barred from publishing or discussing scientific findings that were contrary to the conservative agenda.  Is it fair to say,"That's science in a rightist world"?   Or is it more appropriate to look at it as general government overreach.  This leftist / rightist obsession is ridiculous and divisive.




Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cardboard on December 06, 2017, 12:44:44 PM
"And if he was barred illegally from voting at a union meeting then he should do something about it.  That's a huge deal."

What do you consider illegal? Having to listen to 15-30 minutes of non-related propaganda before a vote?

It is just the way it is. And if you dare denounce or protest, you end up just like the folks from the Right who manifest on the street and get rocks thrown at you.

My friend wants to live (I guess), so he simply avoided the meeting + vote altogether. Unless a large group of people are willing to oppose, the union will impose its laws. And there are enough brainwashed individuals who will injure others on demand.

"And I've never heard one equate their salary with children's well-being."

Regarding this, I have heard that from a female teacher this week-end who wanted me to keep an eye on her expensive (to use her words) Michael Koors bag. What an idiot!

Pushing her thinking to the extreme, although, it is not far from what she had in mind, a teacher should receive an infinite salary since they are taking care of the education of our children. Entitlement is rampant in our world.

Cardboard


 
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 06, 2017, 01:02:08 PM
What do you consider illegal? Having to listen to 15-30 minutes of non-related propaganda before a vote?

Illegal as in against the rules set out by the union and in accordance with provincial labour law.  If they have rules in place that force a member to be present for the discussion period of any motion upon which he/she is going to vote, then your friend should've been there if he wanted to vote.  But I've never heard of such rules, so I'm wondering if they were just making it up as they go.  Things like that can be challenged. It would be supremely stupid for a well organized union to do such a thing. They usually live by (and for) "the rules".

I'm in a union.  I don't like it in many ways, but I have no doubt my working conditions are better for it. 

I was in private industry for a while, in a good position (computer stuff -- professional, well paid, etc).  All was fine until we got bought out.  Everyone got a taste of some real money and the entitlement went off the charts.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 06, 2017, 01:02:15 PM
You don't make many friends saying this, but it is true.  If you take a teachers yearly salary and divide it by the actual hours worked in a year and do the same with other professional jobs (computer programer, engineer, etc) you will find that teachers already make far too much.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 06, 2017, 01:17:48 PM
You don't make many friends saying this, but it is true.  If you take a teachers yearly salary and divide it by the actual hours worked in a year and do the same with other professional jobs (computer programer, engineer, etc) you will find that teachers already make far too much.

I don't now if I'd say all of them make too much, but this is pretty true.
Many of the newer teachers, as in under 10 years employment, often gripe about making very little money. Then you do as you stated above, and see that getting paid 50k a year at 31 years old to work 5 days a week from 7:30-3, 8.5 months a year, aint all that bad. Not great money, but not bad. Then factor in the job security and pensions, and as a career path, its pretty cozy.

Definitely in the "they make too much camp" are the lifers. I remember the head football coach at my HS had been there 30+ years and was pulling in $180k a year to coach football(August thru December) and teach gym class two days a week. Or the Spanish teacher who did in fact teach 4 days a week, but had been there 25 years and was making 240k a year.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Pauly on December 06, 2017, 02:15:29 PM
Definitely in the "they make too much camp" are the lifers. I remember the head football coach at my HS had been there 30+ years and was pulling in $180k a year to coach football(August thru December) and teach gym class two days a week. Or the Spanish teacher who did in fact teach 4 days a week, but had been there 25 years and was making 240k a year.

Wait, what kind of high school did you go to? I've never heard of any district paying a teacher anywhere close to 240K a year. 25 years experience is pretty common and districts would be going bankrupt paying that kind of salary. Sounds like BS to me, which would be par for the course for a lot of the posts in this sub.

To add my $0.02, good teachers tend to be underpaid, and lousy teachers tend to be overpaid. A good teacher is working far more than the typical 8:30-3:00 school hours, and a lousy teacher is barely working even those hours.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 06, 2017, 02:36:53 PM
FWIW my father was a teacher for 20+ years (retired last year) and I don't think he cleared 120K in salary. This was in NYC for context.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 06, 2017, 03:58:22 PM
Definitely in the "they make too much camp" are the lifers. I remember the head football coach at my HS had been there 30+ years and was pulling in $180k a year to coach football(August thru December) and teach gym class two days a week. Or the Spanish teacher who did in fact teach 4 days a week, but had been there 25 years and was making 240k a year.

Wait, what kind of high school did you go to? I've never heard of any district paying a teacher anywhere close to 240K a year. 25 years experience is pretty common and districts would be going bankrupt paying that kind of salary. Sounds like BS to me, which would be par for the course for a lot of the posts in this sub.

To add my $0.02, good teachers tend to be underpaid, and lousy teachers tend to be overpaid. A good teacher is working far more than the typical 8:30-3:00 school hours, and a lousy teacher is barely working even those hours.

Glen Rock High School in NJ. Where art and music teachers take in 100k a year.

The referenced Spanish teacher admittedly was an exceptional situation. Worked at the middle/high school from 9-2, and taught night classes at the community college and another local college. He was pushing 300k in total comp by the time he retired.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 06, 2017, 05:04:18 PM
Definitely in the "they make too much camp" are the lifers. I remember the head football coach at my HS had been there 30+ years and was pulling in $180k a year to coach football(August thru December) and teach gym class two days a week. Or the Spanish teacher who did in fact teach 4 days a week, but had been there 25 years and was making 240k a year.

Wait, what kind of high school did you go to? I've never heard of any district paying a teacher anywhere close to 240K a year. 25 years experience is pretty common and districts would be going bankrupt paying that kind of salary. Sounds like BS to me, which would be par for the course for a lot of the posts in this sub.

To add my $0.02, good teachers tend to be underpaid, and lousy teachers tend to be overpaid. A good teacher is working far more than the typical 8:30-3:00 school hours, and a lousy teacher is barely working even those hours.

Yes, my post may have been an overstatement, I’ve had some excellent teachers and so have my kids, but the best teachers weren’t always the highest paid. For instance when I lived in Massachusetts my kids had some horrible teachers who were making a lot more than the excellent teachers they have had here in NH.  Even the ones teaching here for decades don’t make as much as the horrible teachers in MA did. Money isn’t what separates the good from the bad. Like most union gigs the good are underpaid the bad are overpaid and almost no one makes what they deserve.

While my previous statement may have been too much of a generalization, it is hard to say that in general teachers don’t make enough, because on average they are compensated very well.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 06, 2017, 05:54:28 PM
While my previous statement may have been too much of a generalization, it is hard to say that in general teachers don’t make enough, because on average they are compensated very well.

This is certainly true in Canada.  But I thought I had read in the not-distant past about teachers in some US districts getting paid quite poorly (30k or whatever).  I was always under the impression they made much more in Canada.  It looks like I'm misinformed.

I'd be curious to see the results of a survey that asks the general public what they think a teacher should make.  I wonder if the stats would show any interesting consistencies, such as clumping around some fraction of the respondee's  income.  I'm certain you'd see plenty of very low-ball answers -- $25k or whatever.   

Unless you own and operate a business, it's pretty hard to say what you "should" be getting paid.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on December 06, 2017, 06:37:50 PM
Few links for the typical teacher:
http://www.topeducationdegrees.org/faq/how-much-money-does-an-average-teacher-make-a-year/
https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary
https://www1.salary.com/Teacher-Salary.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/08/07/low-teacher-pay-and-high-teacher-pay-are-both-myths/#2c4b20ec31af

My understanding is that higher education teachers/professors make more, and sometimes much more and the variance is higher. Data is easily available.

Reported numbers understate fringe benefits which are usually significant and very significant pension accruals which are typically very generous. I have heard and read about incredible pensions earned by retirees (especially in the US for some reason). Hard to see how "promised" pensions will be maintained.

In terms of what a person "deserves", I submit that teachers should get some kind of premium but I find that present compensation schemes are more than sufficient. In a more general sense, some studies have shown that people have a tendency to think that others are paid too much if they make more than them. But that's another story.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 06, 2017, 11:52:44 PM
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#25-0000

Looks like the mean primary school teachers make around $70k, post-secondary about 90-100.

I'd say that seems fair.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: DTEJD1997 on December 06, 2017, 11:56:42 PM
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#25-0000

Looks like the mean primary school teachers make around $70k, post-secondary about 90-100.

I'd say that seems fair.

I guess it depends on which skool district you are in....REMEMBER most teachers get their summers off...Spring break, Christmas break, various other holidays....they also tend to have "Cadillac" health care, pensions, and other benefits.

Some of the wealthiest people I know are/were "edukators"....
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 07, 2017, 12:06:45 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: DTEJD1997 on December 07, 2017, 12:25:39 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

I could tell some crazy stories about "edukators"...some of them make a TREMENDOUS amount of money, they know how to work the system, and they know how to get the money.

I also know an educator who does reasonably good work, but gets paid at a level just above poverty.  He is an adjunct professor.  Those guys are taken advantage of by the admins and tenured profs.  That is yet another damning indictment of the education system in America.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 07, 2017, 02:35:06 AM
And that doesn't happen in private firms? I could tell stories of the same type about managing directors. I don't think it's an issue isolated to academics.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 07, 2017, 08:24:05 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

Not really sure about that. Teachers can become principals and consultants. You do get more highly paid. Your career goals are less capped than you think. My cousin followed that path...I would guess she makes at least 160k per year. Now her brother is senior partner in Deloitte and makes >600k per year with less experience but not all people in Deloitte rise to senior partner.

I think during the year most teachers are more stressed out than people in other jobs and honestly students are assholes and there is no respect for a teachers authoritah. Teaching young people can be very easy and pleasurable if the teacher has the power to control the class as they do in China. Teachers are also not really that respected.

So America has a strange system. You pay your teachers well but you don't even get the benefit of having high quality teachers because you have little respect for them and you give them little power. So you attract the worst.

THe problem is that we think of education as a consumption good where we are getting a service and are customers. So when students fail, parents blame teachers. But in the traditional system of education, the onus is on the student not the teacher which in my view makes a great deal more sense. Johnny is not learning, not because his teacher failed him but because Johnny's a lazy moron. Admittedly the traditional system can go too far in letting the teachers off the hook but the current system goes way way too far in letting students off the hook and making them feel good.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 07, 2017, 08:59:13 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

Not really sure about that. Teachers can become principals and consultants. You do get more highly paid. Your career goals are less capped than you think. My cousin followed that path...I would guess she makes at least 160k per year. Now her brother is senior partner in Deloitte and makes >600k per year with less experience but not all people in Deloitte rise to senior partner.

I think during the year most teachers are more stressed out than people in other jobs and honestly students are assholes and there is no respect for a teachers authoritah. Teaching young people can be very easy and pleasurable if the teacher has the power to control the class as they do in China. Teachers are also not really that respected.

So America has a strange system. You pay your teachers well but you don't even get the benefit of having high quality teachers because you have little respect for them and you give them little power. So you attract the worst.

THe problem is that we think of education as a consumption good where we are getting a service and are customers. So when students fail, parents blame teachers. But in the traditional system of education, the onus is on the student not the teacher which in my view makes a great deal more sense. Johnny is not learning, not because his teacher failed him but because Johnny's a lazy moron. Admittedly the traditional system can go too far in letting the teachers off the hook but the current system goes way way too far in letting students off the hook and making them feel good.

You also have an environment where students can assault teachers and principals simply because the teachers want to enforce rules or demands respect and lil' young money gangstas thinks having their Beats headphones on blast or social media feed active 24/7 is a god given right...

https://nypost.com/2016/10/24/principal-brutally-beaten-after-telling-teen-to-remove-headphones/
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 08, 2017, 08:53:31 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

Not really sure about that. Teachers can become principals and consultants. You do get more highly paid. Your career goals are less capped than you think. My cousin followed that path...I would guess she makes at least 160k per year. Now her brother is senior partner in Deloitte and makes >600k per year with less experience but not all people in Deloitte rise to senior partner.

I think during the year most teachers are more stressed out than people in other jobs and honestly students are assholes and there is no respect for a teachers authoritah. Teaching young people can be very easy and pleasurable if the teacher has the power to control the class as they do in China. Teachers are also not really that respected.

So America has a strange system. You pay your teachers well but you don't even get the benefit of having high quality teachers because you have little respect for them and you give them little power. So you attract the worst.

THe problem is that we think of education as a consumption good where we are getting a service and are customers. So when students fail, parents blame teachers. But in the traditional system of education, the onus is on the student not the teacher which in my view makes a great deal more sense. Johnny is not learning, not because his teacher failed him but because Johnny's a lazy moron. Admittedly the traditional system can go too far in letting the teachers off the hook but the current system goes way way too far in letting students off the hook and making them feel good.

You also have an environment where students can assault teachers and principals simply because the teachers want to enforce rules or demands respect and lil' young money gangstas thinks having their Beats headphones on blast or social media feed active 24/7 is a god given right...

https://nypost.com/2016/10/24/principal-brutally-beaten-after-telling-teen-to-remove-headphones/

You left out the follow up
https://nypost.com/2017/09/22/teen-who-punched-principal-in-face-gets-sweet-deal-from-judge/

The judge was very proud of the teen who was completely unapologetic. The teen served zero jail time.

Its no wonder you get bad teachers when students can beat them senseless with impunity.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 08, 2017, 10:10:32 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

Not really sure about that. Teachers can become principals and consultants. You do get more highly paid. Your career goals are less capped than you think. My cousin followed that path...I would guess she makes at least 160k per year. Now her brother is senior partner in Deloitte and makes >600k per year with less experience but not all people in Deloitte rise to senior partner.

I think during the year most teachers are more stressed out than people in other jobs and honestly students are assholes and there is no respect for a teachers authoritah. Teaching young people can be very easy and pleasurable if the teacher has the power to control the class as they do in China. Teachers are also not really that respected.

So America has a strange system. You pay your teachers well but you don't even get the benefit of having high quality teachers because you have little respect for them and you give them little power. So you attract the worst.

THe problem is that we think of education as a consumption good where we are getting a service and are customers. So when students fail, parents blame teachers. But in the traditional system of education, the onus is on the student not the teacher which in my view makes a great deal more sense. Johnny is not learning, not because his teacher failed him but because Johnny's a lazy moron. Admittedly the traditional system can go too far in letting the teachers off the hook but the current system goes way way too far in letting students off the hook and making them feel good.

You also have an environment where students can assault teachers and principals simply because the teachers want to enforce rules or demands respect and lil' young money gangstas thinks having their Beats headphones on blast or social media feed active 24/7 is a god given right...

https://nypost.com/2016/10/24/principal-brutally-beaten-after-telling-teen-to-remove-headphones/

You left out the follow up
https://nypost.com/2017/09/22/teen-who-punched-principal-in-face-gets-sweet-deal-from-judge/

The judge was very proud of the teen who was completely unapologetic. The teen served zero jail time.

Its no wonder you get bad teachers when students can beat them senseless with impunity.

Shucks, I must have missed it. I was out protesting the treatment of white school officials/authority figures by minorities.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on December 20, 2017, 05:58:07 AM
Update on the original news -
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/12/18/wilfrid-laurier-keen-to-turn-page-after-teaching-assistant-wrongly-chastised.html

The university found no complaints had been filed about the teaching assistant by students. In other words, those profs who chastised her (or some people in the admin) must have summoned the meeting on their own after hearing about her tutorial. And they lied to her during the meeting that "one or more students" had made complaints, hence the meeting was required!

When an ideology takes you over, the end can justify whatever means...

EDIT: CBC interview with the TA, Lindsay Shepherd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81f748gBaTs
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: cubsfan on December 20, 2017, 06:17:16 AM
Like Stalin said - show me the man, and I'll find you the crime.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: DTEJD1997 on December 20, 2017, 08:24:15 AM
Update on the original news -
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/12/18/wilfrid-laurier-keen-to-turn-page-after-teaching-assistant-wrongly-chastised.html

The university found no complaints had been filed about the teaching assistant by students. In other words, those profs who chastised her (or some people in the admin) must have summoned the meeting on their own after hearing about her tutorial. And they lied to her during the meeting that "one or more students" had made complaints, hence the meeting was required!

When an ideology takes you over, the end can justify whatever means...

What was missing or not mentioned in that article is what is going to become of the professors/admins that were lying to her and making stuff up.

Obviously they should be fired...but I doubt that will happen.

What is scary to me is that these "SJW" type people are the same types who would be running purges & re-education camps (if they could).  Witness what happened in this case...
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 20, 2017, 10:43:08 AM
Update on the original news -
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/12/18/wilfrid-laurier-keen-to-turn-page-after-teaching-assistant-wrongly-chastised.html

The university found no complaints had been filed about the teaching assistant by students. In other words, those profs who chastised her (or some people in the admin) must have summoned the meeting on their own after hearing about her tutorial. And they lied to her during the meeting that "one or more students" had made complaints, hence the meeting was required!

When an ideology takes you over, the end can justify whatever means...

What was missing or not mentioned in that article is what is going to become of the professors/admins that were lying to her and making stuff up.

Obviously they should be fired...but I doubt that will happen.

What is scary to me is that these "SJW" type people are the same types who would be running purges & re-education camps (if they could).  Witness what happened in this case...

What saddens me is that the left used to be anti-racist & anti-sexist, but they have completely abandoned the notion of equality (i.e. judging a person by the content of his character not by the color of his skin).  It used to be the bigots in the KKK, neo-nazis, white-supremacists, ect, that thought that your race was the most important thing about you, the left used to say that race didn't matter. But now they fully agree with the white supremacists that race is the most important feature you have and should the main thing people look at to decide how to treat you.  This is the same with gender and sexual preferences. It isn't any longer that discrimination should be done away with, they like and fully support discrimination.  They just want it to be directed toward their prefered direction.  And watching the news in 2017 you absolutely see that they are prone to violence and are as anti-free speech as the right wing racists ever were.  The racists on the right are still racist/sexist/bigots, but now the left is just as bad, if not worse.

Libertarians are pretty much the only non-bigoted group out there, and even that, I see far too many people calling themselves libertarians who are responding to the racism on the left by becoming alt-right white supremacists.   The whole thing is just disgusting to me all around.  I attack the left more for two reasons, one is that they are the mainstream, they control the media, the entertainment industry, and the universities.  And two, they used to get it, I used to agree with them, and now they have become what they used to hate.  It is the same with war.  I've never agreed with the right on war, but now that the left is as bloodthirsty as the right ever was, I have lost an ally, so it bothers me more.

Identity politics in any form always leads to hate and violence.  Always.  It is most dangerous when it becomes socially acceptable.  The left are the main racists and bigots in our society today.  Their bigotry is the socially accepted version, therefore it is far more dangerous than the socially unacceptable bigotry on the right.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on December 20, 2017, 11:02:44 AM
Update on the original news -
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/12/18/wilfrid-laurier-keen-to-turn-page-after-teaching-assistant-wrongly-chastised.html

The university found no complaints had been filed about the teaching assistant by students. In other words, those profs who chastised her (or some people in the admin) must have summoned the meeting on their own after hearing about her tutorial. And they lied to her during the meeting that "one or more students" had made complaints, hence the meeting was required!

When an ideology takes you over, the end can justify whatever means...

What was missing or not mentioned in that article is what is going to become of the professors/admins that were lying to her and making stuff up.

Obviously they should be fired...but I doubt that will happen.

What is scary to me is that these "SJW" type people are the same types who would be running purges & re-education camps (if they could).  Witness what happened in this case...

What saddens me is that the left used to be anti-racist & anti-sexist, but they have completely abandoned the notion of equality (i.e. judging a person by the content of his character not by the color of his skin).  It used to be the bigots in the KKK, neo-nazis, white-supremacists, ect, that thought that your race was the most important thing about you, the left used to say that race didn't matter. But now they fully agree with the white supremacists that race is the most important feature you have and should the main thing people look at to decide how to treat you.  This is the same with gender and sexual preferences. It isn't any longer that discrimination should be done away with, they like and fully support discrimination.  They just want it to be directed toward their prefered direction.  And watching the news in 2017 you absolutely see that they are prone to violence and are as anti-free speech as the right wing racists ever were.  The racists on the right are still racist/sexist/bigots, but now the left is just as bad, if not worse.

Libertarians are pretty much the only non-bigoted group out there, and even that, I see far too many people calling themselves libertarians who are responding to the racism on the left by becoming alt-right white supremacists.   The whole thing is just disgusting to me all around.  I attack the left more for two reasons, one is that they are the mainstream, they control the media, the entertainment industry, and the universities.  And two, they used to get it, I used to agree with them, and now they have become what they used to hate.  It is the same with war.  I've never agreed with the right on war, but now that the left is as bloodthirsty as the right ever was, I have lost an ally, so it bothers me more.

Discrimination in any direction always leads to hate and violence.  Always.  It is most dangerous when it becomes socially acceptable.  The left are the main racists and bigots in our society today.  Their bigotry is the socially accepted version, therefore it is far more dangerous than the socially unacceptable bigotry on the right.

Add to it their sense of victimhood against white supremacy (or whatever form that is in power), which justifies whatever actions they take. Much like Nazis thought they were the victims, giving justice to their invasions / genocides...
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 20, 2017, 12:07:52 PM
Update on the original news -
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/12/18/wilfrid-laurier-keen-to-turn-page-after-teaching-assistant-wrongly-chastised.html

The university found no complaints had been filed about the teaching assistant by students. In other words, those profs who chastised her (or some people in the admin) must have summoned the meeting on their own after hearing about her tutorial. And they lied to her during the meeting that "one or more students" had made complaints, hence the meeting was required!

When an ideology takes you over, the end can justify whatever means...

What was missing or not mentioned in that article is what is going to become of the professors/admins that were lying to her and making stuff up.

Obviously they should be fired...but I doubt that will happen.

What is scary to me is that these "SJW" type people are the same types who would be running purges & re-education camps (if they could).  Witness what happened in this case...

What saddens me is that the left used to be anti-racist & anti-sexist, but they have completely abandoned the notion of equality (i.e. judging a person by the content of his character not by the color of his skin).  It used to be the bigots in the KKK, neo-nazis, white-supremacists, ect, that thought that your race was the most important thing about you, the left used to say that race didn't matter. But now they fully agree with the white supremacists that race is the most important feature you have and should the main thing people look at to decide how to treat you.  This is the same with gender and sexual preferences. It isn't any longer that discrimination should be done away with, they like and fully support discrimination.  They just want it to be directed toward their prefered direction.  And watching the news in 2017 you absolutely see that they are prone to violence and are as anti-free speech as the right wing racists ever were.  The racists on the right are still racist/sexist/bigots, but now the left is just as bad, if not worse.

Libertarians are pretty much the only non-bigoted group out there, and even that, I see far too many people calling themselves libertarians who are responding to the racism on the left by becoming alt-right white supremacists.   The whole thing is just disgusting to me all around.  I attack the left more for two reasons, one is that they are the mainstream, they control the media, the entertainment industry, and the universities.  And two, they used to get it, I used to agree with them, and now they have become what they used to hate.  It is the same with war.  I've never agreed with the right on war, but now that the left is as bloodthirsty as the right ever was, I have lost an ally, so it bothers me more.

Discrimination in any direction always leads to hate and violence.  Always.  It is most dangerous when it becomes socially acceptable.  The left are the main racists and bigots in our society today.  Their bigotry is the socially accepted version, therefore it is far more dangerous than the socially unacceptable bigotry on the right.

Add to it their sense of victimhood against white supremacy (or whatever form that is in power), which justifies whatever actions they take. Much like Nazis thought they were the victims, giving justice to their invasions / genocides...

The German people were the victims of the Treaty of Versailles.  Being a victim doesn't give you the right to hurt others.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 20, 2017, 01:21:15 PM
Update on the original news -
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/12/18/wilfrid-laurier-keen-to-turn-page-after-teaching-assistant-wrongly-chastised.html

The university found no complaints had been filed about the teaching assistant by students. In other words, those profs who chastised her (or some people in the admin) must have summoned the meeting on their own after hearing about her tutorial. And they lied to her during the meeting that "one or more students" had made complaints, hence the meeting was required!

When an ideology takes you over, the end can justify whatever means...

What was missing or not mentioned in that article is what is going to become of the professors/admins that were lying to her and making stuff up.

Obviously they should be fired...but I doubt that will happen.

What is scary to me is that these "SJW" type people are the same types who would be running purges & re-education camps (if they could).  Witness what happened in this case...

What saddens me is that the left used to be anti-racist & anti-sexist, but they have completely abandoned the notion of equality (i.e. judging a person by the content of his character not by the color of his skin).  It used to be the bigots in the KKK, neo-nazis, white-supremacists, ect, that thought that your race was the most important thing about you, the left used to say that race didn't matter. But now they fully agree with the white supremacists that race is the most important feature you have and should the main thing people look at to decide how to treat you.  This is the same with gender and sexual preferences. It isn't any longer that discrimination should be done away with, they like and fully support discrimination.  They just want it to be directed toward their prefered direction.  And watching the news in 2017 you absolutely see that they are prone to violence and are as anti-free speech as the right wing racists ever were.  The racists on the right are still racist/sexist/bigots, but now the left is just as bad, if not worse.

Libertarians are pretty much the only non-bigoted group out there, and even that, I see far too many people calling themselves libertarians who are responding to the racism on the left by becoming alt-right white supremacists.   The whole thing is just disgusting to me all around.  I attack the left more for two reasons, one is that they are the mainstream, they control the media, the entertainment industry, and the universities.  And two, they used to get it, I used to agree with them, and now they have become what they used to hate.  It is the same with war.  I've never agreed with the right on war, but now that the left is as bloodthirsty as the right ever was, I have lost an ally, so it bothers me more.

Identity politics in any form always leads to hate and violence.  Always.  It is most dangerous when it becomes socially acceptable.  The left are the main racists and bigots in our society today.  Their bigotry is the socially accepted version, therefore it is far more dangerous than the socially unacceptable bigotry on the right.

Best politics related post in a very. very long time. 1000% accurate
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Rainforesthiker on December 20, 2017, 02:12:59 PM
Update on the original news -
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/12/18/wilfrid-laurier-keen-to-turn-page-after-teaching-assistant-wrongly-chastised.html

The university found no complaints had been filed about the teaching assistant by students. In other words, those profs who chastised her (or some people in the admin) must have summoned the meeting on their own after hearing about her tutorial. And they lied to her during the meeting that "one or more students" had made complaints, hence the meeting was required!

When an ideology takes you over, the end can justify whatever means...

What was missing or not mentioned in that article is what is going to become of the professors/admins that were lying to her and making stuff up.

Obviously they should be fired...but I doubt that will happen.

What is scary to me is that these "SJW" type people are the same types who would be running purges & re-education camps (if they could).  Witness what happened in this case...

What saddens me is that the left used to be anti-racist & anti-sexist, but they have completely abandoned the notion of equality (i.e. judging a person by the content of his character not by the color of his skin).  It used to be the bigots in the KKK, neo-nazis, white-supremacists, ect, that thought that your race was the most important thing about you, the left used to say that race didn't matter. But now they fully agree with the white supremacists that race is the most important feature you have and should the main thing people look at to decide how to treat you.  This is the same with gender and sexual preferences. It isn't any longer that discrimination should be done away with, they like and fully support discrimination.  They just want it to be directed toward their prefered direction.  And watching the news in 2017 you absolutely see that they are prone to violence and are as anti-free speech as the right wing racists ever were.  The racists on the right are still racist/sexist/bigots, but now the left is just as bad, if not worse.

Libertarians are pretty much the only non-bigoted group out there, and even that, I see far too many people calling themselves libertarians who are responding to the racism on the left by becoming alt-right white supremacists.   The whole thing is just disgusting to me all around.  I attack the left more for two reasons, one is that they are the mainstream, they control the media, the entertainment industry, and the universities.  And two, they used to get it, I used to agree with them, and now they have become what they used to hate.  It is the same with war.  I've never agreed with the right on war, but now that the left is as bloodthirsty as the right ever was, I have lost an ally, so it bothers me more.

Identity politics in any form always leads to hate and violence.  Always.  It is most dangerous when it becomes socially acceptable.  The left are the main racists and bigots in our society today.  Their bigotry is the socially accepted version, therefore it is far more dangerous than the socially unacceptable bigotry on the right.

Best politics related post in a very. very long time. 1000% accurate

Agreed.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: cubsfan on December 20, 2017, 02:27:08 PM
Yup - couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 20, 2017, 03:21:09 PM
I agree there's a ton of victimhood on the left. I get that it can be annoying to listen to.

But I'll take that as opposed to actual racism and sexism.

I think what's missing on the politics board is actual data-driven analysis. We're great at cherry picking events and extrapolating to society, but not many topics include sociological data analysis.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 20, 2017, 03:34:20 PM

Best politics related post in a very. very long time. 1000% accurate

For what it's worth, I disagree 1000% that it's 1000% accurate.

For example: 
"The racists on the right are still racist/sexist/bigots, but now the left is just as bad, if not worse."
"The left are the main racists and bigots in our society today.."

What is "the left", precisely?  Or even semi-precisely?  For the above statements to be anywhere close to accurate, "the left" must refer to a much smaller subset of people than I think it does.   





Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 20, 2017, 04:39:55 PM
I agree there's a ton of victimhood on the left. I get that it can be annoying to listen to.

But I'll take that as opposed to actual racism and sexism.

I think what's missing on the politics board is actual data-driven analysis. We're great at cherry picking events and extrapolating to society, but not many topics include sociological data analysis.

There is plenty of racism on the left. Unless it doesn't count when it's against whites, Asians, and Jews.

And sexism? Females in this country are still treated like second class humans. For an example look at Hollywood, the Liberal Utopia. Where Clinton bigwig Harvey Weinstein and countless other big time Libs were running rampant. Or mainstream media? How's it going Matt Lauer? The biggest Liberal mouth pieces are the worst offenders it seems.

And IMO worse than the above, as it undermines the foundations of this country, is the constant liberal baiting into class warfare. The tax bill for instance, every major news outlet the past months has been crying "tax cuts for the wealthy", "handouts to the rich", and my favorite "polls says most Americans hate the GOP tax plan"(please, is there really anyone stupid enough left to believe a MSM "poll" after the stunts they pulled last election?). You have to search rigorously just to find an honest breakdown of the tax plan, https://nypost.com/2017/12/19/what-the-tax-bill-really-means-for-new-york/ and see that the truth has been heavily distorted by these crooked left propaganda machines.

The agenda for the left has accelerated in aggressiveness big time, and since Trump came into the picture its been downright shameless and obscene.
1)Use class warfare to push socialist ideologies.
2)Cater to the minorities that typically tend to rely on freebies promising more freebies.
3)Incite hatred for those that push against this agenda. Augment this using MSM
4)Find a scapegoat that is in the new minority(whites, Asians, Jews) that can't defend itself or doesn't have the time to waste playing these games.
5)Brand them racist, sexist, homophobic, etc along with anyone who disagrees with your ideology.
6)Take away any method they do have to defend themselves whether it be degrading them in the press to de-legitimize what they stand for, or try to take away their guns so they can't do it physically
7) tax them to death, and even further tax them upon death, so you gradually turn them into the freebie needing liberal over time.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 20, 2017, 09:12:03 PM
I'm not sure what about your argument is "[rigorous] just to find an honest breakdown of the tax plan", when you only present the story of one state. And trust me, the truly wealthy in NY are earning money thru LLCs etc. and just got a nice fat tax break.

So I'm not sure what you consider "rigorous", but I simply googled "trump tax plan breakdown" and this was the top listing, and contains a description of all the major changes:
https://www.thebalance.com/trump-s-tax-plan-how-it-affects-you-4113968

It's quite legible to read through and imagine what the effects will be.

Moving on, I'm going to again refer back to my post that =a lot of the messages here are lacking in supporting evidence. For example:

1) Class warfare? The war is over dude. Have you seen graphs of income inequality? It's kind of shitty.
https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/incomegainstop_6-22-16-eh-rc-eb-2_450.png

2) You realize the largest recipients of gov't assistance are white people, right? And even moreso, children are by far the largest recipients.
https://www.thoughtco.com/who-really-receives-welfare-4126592

...

7) Have you looked at class mobility studies? They show that the top and bottom quintiles will remain there: http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/wwwpewtrustsorg/reports/economic_mobility/pursuingamericandreampdf.pdf

The US has a modern progressive tax system for nearing 100 years now and an estate tax for over 100 years, and yet top quintile class mobility does not behave as you claim. The rich aren't turning into a "freebie needing liberal over time".

3)4)5)6) I honestly have no idea what you're referring to, nor really what the point is. Some crazy far-left people say crazy shit. Same with the crazy far-right people. I'm not going to address the gun thing because again, no idea what you're referring to. I do think it's amusing that you or whomever you're referring to, thinks that Jews, Asians, and Whites are the "new minority". I don't even know what that means but I'm pretty sure Jews have been a minority group since Moses (hardly new), and Asians make up like 60% of the world's population (hardly the minority).
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 21, 2017, 05:17:50 AM
Some crazy far-left people say crazy shit. Same with the crazy far-right people.

That's really disingenuous to say that.  While technically true, it isn't comparable.   The people on the left saying crazy stuff are college professors; mainstream writers, reporters, and journalists; the writers, producers, and actors in all of the movies/tv shows that Americans spend way too much time watching; high school teachers who spend more hours talking with children then their parents do.  The crazies on the left are able to mobilize 10s of thousands of people in cities coast to coast to wear pussies on their heads and march in the streets.  They are able to shut down mainstream right speakers/events in any state nation wide, using violence and vandalism.

The crazies on the right, however, may be crazier than the crazies on the left, I'll give you that, but they are few and far between and have no power what-so-ever in our culture.  They can mobilize a few hundred people one time to carry some tiki torches and make fools of themselves.  Something so small and insignificant that it would have been a complete non-event that everyone could have reasonably ignored if the leftist media hadn't blown it up to something it wasn't simply to scare the masses and make them think that they are surrounded by nazis crawling out of the woodwork.  No one, left or right, takes these people seriously and no one ever will.  They are censored from google and social media they are disowned by the vast majority of even the right.  There is zero chance we will ever see an influential nazi politician or author or party.  If fascism ever comes to america in a big way it will not be from the right.

Being on neither "team" when I stand back and look at both sides, I am no longer afraid of the right the way I used to be.  The left is a much bigger problem now.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 21, 2017, 05:29:23 AM
The presentation of the tax plan, from almost all MSM, was that it was some hand out to the wealthy. It was completely misrepresented and there wasn't even much focus on anything effecting the average citizen, unless of course, it was a horrid headline about all the deductions they'd be losing...

Chuck Schumer further fed this orgy of misinformation. It was quite funny hearing his speeches and seeing a headline on CNBC titled: Republican tax plan will increase share buybacks and dividends — not wages: Chuck Schumer

Within a hour you then see:
AT&T, Comcast giving $1,000 bonuses to hundreds of thousands of workers after tax bill

    AT&T is paying bonuses of $1,000 to more than 200,000 U.S. employees.
    AT&T's CEO said it was in response to tax reform.

Wells Fargo, Fifth Third Bancorp unveil minimum wage hikes after tax bill passage

    Fifth Third and AT&T are paying employees special bonuses after getting tax cuts under the Republican tax plan.

Whoops, Chucky and friends were already starting to be proven wrong within minutes of the plan passing! I wonder how all these "economic gurus" who said the plan would bring doom and gloom will react once GDP and salary figure info starts coming out over the next 12-24 months? Will there be as many "we were wrong, tax reform was actually a good idea" articles as there were pieces condemning it? I doubt it. We'll probably hear about how in 2027 80% of Americans getting refunds won't be anymore or something. Or maybe how it will mean that there will be "18 million less Americans with health insurance" which is just the liberal spin way of saying the truth; "18 million Americans will CHOOSE not to have health insurance because they will no longer get taxed for exercising their right not to have something they don't want".

But my bigger thing with this is, how did it actually become the popular take with the left that tax breaks are bad for every one if the wealthy benefit too? That making business more competitive is a bad thing? You'd think lower taxes for pretty much everyone, and giving corporations operating in America an advantage would be great across the board. Yet every single Democrat senator voted against it.

As for the discrimination topic, sure Asians are 60% of the world population, but we're talking about America. In America, Asians seem to get the short end of the stick quite often when receiving benefits, both tangible and intangible, from the progressive liberal circus. This thread is about what's happening at universities, here is an example or two:
https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/08/07/look-data-and-arguments-about-asian-americans-and-admissions-elite
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-affirmative-action-and-asian-americans

Same thing Jewish people. Women as well. Don't you think it's odd that only now, in 2017 are we starting to see people express outrage against sexual harassment against women? That for decades its been covered up by most of these media outlets(yes including Fox News)? That women still make pennies on the dollar compared to men. Or are still largely evaluated based on their looks?

And I suppose this gets to my greater point. This isn't really a definitive left vs right issue because both sides fail miserably with these things. However the left loves running around all self righteous and indignant but really only pick and choose their rallying cries, and the rallying cries are just veiled attempts to manipulate the less sophisticated groups that present the best strategic options for pushing their agenda.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 21, 2017, 05:45:32 AM
http://babylonbee.com/news/breaking-nation-furious-giving-government-less-money/
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 21, 2017, 05:54:28 AM
http://babylonbee.com/news/breaking-nation-furious-giving-government-less-money/

While I'd gander this is satirical, I wouldn't be shocked if it wasn't. The sad truth is many, many people are simply idiots who believe whatever the MSM tells them. It's still amazing to me that there were people opposed to cutting taxes! And worse, is that the arguments from Pelosi, Schumer, and the whole nutty bunch were terrible yet it seems some still just took their word. "It's a handout to the rich"- yes, almost everybody gets a tax break, even the rich; "more people will be uninsured"-yes, if you don't want to pay for health insurance, you don't have to, and won't get taxed as a penalty-THE HORRORS!. Anything to keep this ruling kingdom well funded and spending excessively.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on December 21, 2017, 05:55:02 AM
Some crazy far-left people say crazy shit. Same with the crazy far-right people.

I want to add on something about this statement too (ironically, it is a point made by Jordan Peterson).

Think about our society's response to someone holding up a Nazi flag / Mein Kampf / a picture of Hitler vs. a Soviet flag / Communist Manifesto / a picture of Lenin or Marx. Or just think about the prevalence of them in protests, etc. Why the hell are we tolerating the latter entities when multiple trials of Marxism repeatedly led to millions of people dying in our history? Somehow, the evil disguised as justice has sipped through the left, and it is increasingly becoming more prevalent.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on December 21, 2017, 05:57:05 AM
LC,
Thank you for the interesting/relevant links.

From some of the data, it seems that, despite the rising tide, conditions for many are stable or worse. Why?
Now, one has to look at personal responsibility, at "mainstream" university professors or maybe look in the opposite direction.
An issue worth thinking about nonetheless (right, left or whatever).
Work in progress. Looking for common grounds.
Nobody said it would be a straight line.

rkbabang and Gregmal,
As far as polarization, data that I looked at does not support what you say.
https://web.stanford.edu/~gentzkow/research/PolarizationIn2016.pdf

I find that how people perceive "the other side" has evolved from the two sides (especially at the extremes).
If pressed for time just take a look at figure 10 (page 15) and figure 11 (page 16).
There is also a section on "media" towards the end.

Food for thought:
"Perhaps the most disturbing fact is that politics has become increasingly personal. We don’t see those on the other side as well-meaning people who happen to hold different opinions or to weight conflicting goals differently. We see them as unintelligent and selfish, with views so perverse that they can be explained only by unimaginable cluelessness, or a dark ulterior motive. Either way, they pose a grave threat to our nation."

Hope that helps.


Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on December 21, 2017, 05:57:24 AM
http://babylonbee.com/news/breaking-nation-furious-giving-government-less-money/

While I'd gander this is satirical, I wouldn't be shocked if it wasn't. The sad truth is many, many people are simply idiots who believe whatever the MSM tells them. It's still amazing to me that there were people opposed to cutting taxes! And worse, is that the arguments from Pelosi, Schumer, and the whole nutty bunch were terrible yet it seems some still just took their word. "It's a handout to the rich"- yes, almost everybody gets a tax break, even the rich; "more people will be uninsured"-yes, if you don't want to pay for health insurance, you don't have to, and won't get taxed as a penalty-THE HORRORS!. Anything to keep this ruling kingdom well funded and spending excessively.

Liberals Love Trump's Tax Plan... When Told It's Bernie Sanders' Plan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctz_dHfYfb8
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 21, 2017, 06:34:18 AM
http://babylonbee.com/news/breaking-nation-furious-giving-government-less-money/

While I'd gander this is satirical, I wouldn't be shocked if it wasn't. The sad truth is many, many people are simply idiots who believe whatever the MSM tells them. It's still amazing to me that there were people opposed to cutting taxes! And worse, is that the arguments from Pelosi, Schumer, and the whole nutty bunch were terrible yet it seems some still just took their word. "It's a handout to the rich"- yes, almost everybody gets a tax break, even the rich; "more people will be uninsured"-yes, if you don't want to pay for health insurance, you don't have to, and won't get taxed as a penalty-THE HORRORS!. Anything to keep this ruling kingdom well funded and spending excessively.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 21, 2017, 06:40:51 AM
Some crazy far-left people say crazy shit. Same with the crazy far-right people.

I want to add on something about this statement too (ironically, it is a point made by Jordan Peterson).

Think about our society's response to someone holding up a Nazi flag / Mein Kampf / a picture of Hitler vs. a Soviet flag / Communist Manifesto / a picture of Lenin or Marx. Or just think about the prevalence of them in protests, etc. Why the hell are we tolerating the latter entities when multiple trials of Marxism repeatedly led to millions of people dying in our history? Somehow, the evil disguised as justice has sipped through the left, and it is increasingly becoming more prevalent.


When nazis kill 20M people it is the worst tragedy the world has ever seen (because the mainstream left disagrees with them), but when communists kill 100M people the left ignores it completely then they carry around Communist flags and put mass-murdering Communist leaders on t-shirts, because they meant well. 

Well I disagree with both ideologies so I see Communism as 5X more murderous than Nazism and because Communism is still far more culturally acceptable with far more believers (whereas Nazism is pretty much dead), Communism is still far more dangerous to humanity.

http://dailysignal.com/2017/12/20/the-reason-the-left-gives-communism-a-pass/
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 21, 2017, 06:45:48 AM
LC,
Thank you for the interesting/relevant links.

From some of the data, it seems that, despite the rising tide, conditions for many are stable or worse. Why?
Now, one has to look at personal responsibility, at "mainstream" university professors or maybe look in the opposite direction.
An issue worth thinking about nonetheless (right, left or whatever).
Work in progress. Looking for common grounds.
Nobody said it would be a straight line.

rkbabang and Gregmal,
As far as polarization, data that I looked at does not support what you say.
https://web.stanford.edu/~gentzkow/research/PolarizationIn2016.pdf

I find that how people perceive "the other side" has evolved from the two sides (especially at the extremes).
If pressed for time just take a look at figure 10 (page 15) and figure 11 (page 16).
There is also a section on "media" towards the end.

Food for thought:
"Perhaps the most disturbing fact is that politics has become increasingly personal. We don’t see those on the other side as well-meaning people who happen to hold different opinions or to weight conflicting goals differently. We see them as unintelligent and selfish, with views so perverse that they can be explained only by unimaginable cluelessness, or a dark ulterior motive. Either way, they pose a grave threat to our nation."

Hope that helps.

I agree with the later about politics becoming personal. Its not good and unfortunately many people simply can't view people with a differing opinion as anything other than the enemy. To start to solve this problem weeding out hypocrisy and ulterior motives needs to occur. There is a huge difference between a single, Hispanic mom making 35k a year working 3 jobs complaining about healthcare and a a senator making 150k a year with gold standard health coverage riling people up about health care hoping to win the Hispanic and female vote.

Regarding polarization, I'll give you $100 to wear a Make America Great Again hat and walk through NYC for an hour. Hopefully you can tell me how it went. I'll go wear an Obama "Change" hat and walk around in Oklahoma. Let's see what happens...
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on December 21, 2017, 07:44:54 AM
Racism exists everywhere, and pretty much always has. Ultimately it's a human nature thing; I think I deserve/or have a higher social standing than the other guy, and will manipulate social controls to achieve/or maintain it. The tools are exclusion; 'members only' clubs, discrimination based on color or race, looks, etc. Doesn't mean you have to accept the 'mores' of the day, or even continue to live in the same place.

Media is just propaganda. It either publishes what is popular to make a profit, or it gets subsidized to keep the 'influence' channels open. Subsidization runs from owning your own station and staffing it with folks at minimum wage (FoX news), through to indirect control via large scale political election spending. It is the 4th estate of state craft; polarization is just another tool to sell more papers, and bring in more advertising revenue.

We all play the hand we're dealt, & add/discard to improve our odds of success. For most that means either 'set' the game (elites, etc), 'disrupt' via a competing game, or 'don't play'. Game setters play against time via melting ice cubes of control, and occassionaly discover that players also have teeth (madame guillotine per the French revolution).

Don't rail against what you cannot change, position yourself to benefit from it - whether you're the one getting oppressed, or the one doing the oppressing. Think independently.

SD


Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 21, 2017, 11:31:15 AM
Regarding polarization, I'll give you $100 to wear a Make America Great Again hat and walk through NYC for an hour. Hopefully you can tell me how it went. I'll go wear an Obama "Change" hat and walk around in Oklahoma. Let's see what happens...

You could have just googled it. Also, you may have to raise your price:

https://nypost.com/2017/03/18/i-survived-wearing-a-make-america-great-again-hat-in-nyc/

Actually, one interpretation is that the results of this confirm the paper that Cardboard linked. The conclusions of that paper are that, while most people are increasingly correlating issues with political parties, the people themselves are not becoming more extreme in their own views on these issues.

So to relate it this guy walking around NYC in a maga hat, everyone is immediately identifying him as a republican, but nobody is taking it to the extreme and physically assaulting the dude.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 21, 2017, 11:53:41 AM
Some crazy far-left people say crazy shit. Same with the crazy far-right people.

 The crazies on the left are able to mobilize 10s of thousands of people in cities coast to coast to wear pussies on their heads and march in the streets.  They are able to shut down mainstream right speakers/events in any state nation wide, using violence and vandalism.

The crazies on the right, however, may be crazier than the crazies on the left, I'll give you that, but they are few and far between and have no power what-so-ever in our culture.  They can mobilize a few hundred people one time to carry some tiki torches and make fools of themselves.
 
Being on neither "team" when I stand back and look at both sides, I am no longer afraid of the right the way I used to be.  The left is a much bigger problem now.

I just selected some parts of your reply to save space, I don't think I lost the original meaning.

As the research paper Cardboard linked mentions, people themselves have not taken on more extreme views over time. The distribution is relatively flat. So I think the fact that 10,000+ people are coming out to marches indicates that there's an actual social problem.

Happy, content people aren't taking to the streets. Which I guess is why the right can only drum up 100 people. The real problem is that most of "the right" is so content with the status quo they can sit home and shake their head, because it does not affect them.

But I agree with you on one point: that I'm upset (probably more than most) that speeches are getting shut down. Free speech is very important and the foundation to a healthy society. There's a great quote: "Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 21, 2017, 11:57:37 AM
But I agree with you on one point: that I'm upset (probably more than most) that speeches are getting shut down. Free speech is very important and the foundation to a healthy society. There's a great quote: "Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."

We agree 100% there.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: boilermaker75 on December 21, 2017, 01:40:19 PM
But I agree with you on one point: that I'm upset (probably more than most) that speeches are getting shut down. Free speech is very important and the foundation to a healthy society. There's a great quote: "Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."

We agree 100% there.

“Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigue of supporting it,” Thomas Paine, 1777

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety,” Ben Franklin.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 21, 2017, 02:06:43 PM
Some crazy far-left people say crazy shit. Same with the crazy far-right people.

 The crazies on the left are able to mobilize 10s of thousands of people in cities coast to coast to wear pussies on their heads and march in the streets.  They are able to shut down mainstream right speakers/events in any state nation wide, using violence and vandalism.

The crazies on the right, however, may be crazier than the crazies on the left, I'll give you that, but they are few and far between and have no power what-so-ever in our culture.  They can mobilize a few hundred people one time to carry some tiki torches and make fools of themselves.
 
Being on neither "team" when I stand back and look at both sides, I am no longer afraid of the right the way I used to be.  The left is a much bigger problem now.

I just selected some parts of your reply to save space, I don't think I lost the original meaning.

As the research paper Cardboard linked mentions, people themselves have not taken on more extreme views over time. The distribution is relatively flat. So I think the fact that 10,000+ people are coming out to marches indicates that there's an actual social problem.

Happy, content people aren't taking to the streets. Which I guess is why the right can only drum up 100 people. The real problem is that most of "the right" is so content with the status quo they can sit home and shake their head, because it does not affect them.

But I agree with you on one point: that I'm upset (probably more than most) that speeches are getting shut down. Free speech is very important and the foundation to a healthy society. There's a great quote: "Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."

In regards to the bolded, I think its fairly accurate. There is also another angle. Most lower income and struggling Republicans are too busy working to protest or riot. That said I know for a fact a good set of Republicans, probably most of the ones I know, do fit into your assessment. They are content, their lives are good, they're just pissed that their freedoms are being eroded, that they're being branded as racists, and that they are being taxed to death. But when I picture this segment of the Republican base, it's a bunch of white guys, ages 50-75 bitching about politics over cigars and whiskey. This is different than the lower class, struggling blue collar Republican who just wants a middle class lifestyle after working his 10 hour shift at the garage.

The Democrat side I've seen is 75% lower income minorities. People who I guess have been given a raw deal or at least were awhile ago and refuse to let go of that because it's easier to make excuses for your situation than deal with it. They shun education, the law, and many times respect for others. They want things done for them. You've also got the useless millelial who's grown up with a silver spoon and wants to change the world instead of work at 25 years old.

Then there is the special kind of Democrat. The elites. I know these best because I grew up around tons of them and still live amongst them. They are the highly educated, very wealthy "philanthropist" type. Think Buffet or Soros(just guys making 500k+/year instead of 100M/year). They are all about "giving back" and paying more(while often conveniently finding ways to avoid it themselves) simply because they are already set. It's almost an ego thing. Wanting to feel like they are doing something positive in the world for their own gratification. They control many of the resources and the voices that influence are often tied to them. For them, it's easy to want to give back, because they have more than they need. Whereas their wealthy Republican counterparts seem so pissed at everything else that's been taken from them they throw fits about giving away their wealth, even though they certainly could afford to do so to a greater degree as well.

So when you look at the bigger picture, it's the lower rungs on both sides that are in shambles and from everything I've seen the culprits for the violence and the shit that makes the news. These are the ones that need to get their act together, but in order for that to happen, the people at the top need to show them that it will be worth it and that the American dream is still alive. Rather than bait them into hating this group or that group or misrepresent policy(things most of these people don't understand anyway-the reason media can be so effective). Stop using rhetoric to control these people's emotions so they will vote the way you want them too.

That's why I think tax reform was a huge deal but a huge shame in the way it's been covered and portrayed. The way everyone presents it and how the media and Democrats continue to lie about it. It will help the lower rung of people and should have been done a while ago. and FWIW, I am one of the few who despite being in favor of it, will see a fairly significant tax increase being a 1099, and living in one of the highest taxed areas of Northern NJ.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 21, 2017, 04:59:46 PM
There is also another angle. Most lower income and struggling Republicans are too busy working to protest or riot

The Democrat side I've seen is 75% lower income minorities. People who I guess have been given a raw deal or at least were awhile ago and refuse to let go of that because it's easier to make excuses for your situation than deal with it.


So I read the above two statements and to me it sounds like bias. I just don't see how you can make these claims without anything other than anecdotal evidence to back it up.

So when you look at the bigger picture, it's the lower rungs on both sides that are in shambles and from everything I've seen the culprits for the violence and the shit that makes the news. These are the ones that need to get their act together, but in order for that to happen, the people at the top need to show them that it will be worth it and that the American dream is still alive.

I don't agree with some of the assertions here, but I agree the poor and working classes are getting a raw deal. Our government should have worked to counteract the dramatic wealth inequality we have seen in this country over the past 30 years.

The economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez wrote that decreased progressiveness in US tax policy in the post World War II era has increased income inequality by enabling the wealthy greater access to capital.
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/pikettyqje.pdf

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 21, 2017, 05:03:40 PM
https://twitter.com/jpatl512/status/943875207349104641

https://twitter.com/anitamendeman/status/943799505841000448

https://twitter.com/americamainstr/status/943662227801935872

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: DTEJD1997 on December 21, 2017, 05:29:55 PM
There is also another angle. Most lower income and struggling Republicans are too busy working to protest or riot

The Democrat side I've seen is 75% lower income minorities. People who I guess have been given a raw deal or at least were awhile ago and refuse to let go of that because it's easier to make excuses for your situation than deal with it.


So I read the above two statements and to me it sounds like bias. I just don't see how you can make these claims without anything other than anecdotal evidence to back it up.

So when you look at the bigger picture, it's the lower rungs on both sides that are in shambles and from everything I've seen the culprits for the violence and the shit that makes the news. These are the ones that need to get their act together, but in order for that to happen, the people at the top need to show them that it will be worth it and that the American dream is still alive.

I don't agree with some of the assertions here, but I agree the poor and working classes are getting a raw deal. Our government should have worked to counteract the dramatic wealth inequality we have seen in this country over the past 30 years.

The economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez wrote that decreased progressiveness in US tax policy in the post World War II era has increased income inequality by enabling the wealthy greater access to capital.
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/pikettyqje.pdf


The single biggest cause of wealth inequality is the education industrial complex.

So many minorities are simply being sold down the river by the "edukators" in major cities.  Perhaps Detroit is the WORST example of this.  Instead of being ineffective, the skools in Detroit are probably making their students "more stupider"....things are simply out of control and damaging to the students.  Who benefits?  Only the people getting money from the system, and it is quite a few people at that.  You've got ENTIRE skools where not a single student is proficient at math.  Nothing shocks me when it comes to the disgraceful state of Detroit skools.

You've got GENERATIONS of people coming out of Detroit skools that are functionally illiterate.  Who is going to hire them?  Who wants to hire them?  Instead of being a stepping stone into work & adult life, a DPS diploma is a debilitating HINDERANCE.

THEN you've got the college system.  Many young people are HOPELESSLY burdened by student loans, but this is ESPECIALLY the case for minority students.   They frequently don't have the FAMILY resources and connections that other students have.  This can certainly be capital & money...but can also be connections & knowledge to "stay out of" certain fields.  For example, enrollment in law skools is generally down across the board, as word is getting out that being an attorney is a pathway to poverty & not likely a good decision...but law skools are ramping up recruitment of minority students as they have not yet gotten word that it is bad decision to attend.  They are preying upon minorities.

When you have a terrible education and/or a crippling amount of debt, how are you EVER going to be a productive member of society?  You are forever "behind the eight ball".
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 22, 2017, 04:39:31 AM
Another good piece on the lies spread by the wicked witch of the west coast and her crew of delusional dems

https://nypost.com/2017/12/21/nancy-pelosis-apocalyptic-tax-bill-delusions/

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on December 22, 2017, 06:53:30 AM
Trying to form an opinion on the tax bill.
You are right that there are a lot of "opinions" out there.

I recently looked at a document which was produced by a university graduate affiliated with an organization that has at least some semblance of objectivity.
Do you believe in bipartisanship?
https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/the-legacy-of-the-2001-and-2003-bush-tax-cuts
It deals with previous tax cuts. A cost/benefit type of approach.
I'm trying to make connections as I read what Ray Dalio is saying about the present.

Question open to all:
If universities need to be "improved", what specific actions do you propose?
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 22, 2017, 10:34:57 AM
Interesting paper, cigarbutt.
Perhaps taxes function like mandatory dividends. The divs force management to be prudent and consistently earn income above the hurdle.

Re universities...I think the student debt aspect creates so many issues. Higher tuition, higher accessibility. People who may not go to uni can suddenly afford it. Schools especially the shadier ones, aren't turning down business. One solution is the schools taking a stake in the debt of their students.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 22, 2017, 01:47:23 PM
Question open to all:
If universities need to be "improved", what specific actions do you propose?

1) Eliminate student loan programs and reduce accessibility to university. Increase standards throughout the system so that a high school diploma is more like a Bachelors and a Master is more like a Bachelor. Fail kids. Leave kids behind. Kick misbehaving kids out of school. Essentially reintroduce the concept of high standards and the authority of teachers. I would attempt to cut enrollment by 50%.

2) Shutdown Education departments, Gender studies, women studies, black studies, anthropology, English departments and every other propaganda department

3) cut funding by maybe 25%

4) Separate research from teaching. If you are going to teach it should be high quality and if you are going to research that should be high quality. But high quality researchers should not be doing shoddy teaching which most of the time they are.

5) Eliminate all the administrative bloat and all the regulations driving it. Most money going to universities should be going to teaching or research...a lot less should be going to all the frills and student facilities.

Basically turn back the clock to what you had 60 or more years ago.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on December 22, 2017, 03:53:11 PM
Question open to all:
If universities need to be "improved", what specific actions do you propose?

Change how research is funded. Cut back direct funding, patent all research as it's produced, and charge a licence to use it. The research community evidences the usefulness of the research by paying for it, the university fires researchers who are not recovering the direct funding being cut back, and fund raising efforts improve if they can now show results for the $ contributed.

Lots of unemployed researchers lowering the demand for new researchers, forcing the exit of 'professional students', and injecting a healthy dose of rationality throughout the educational supply chain.

Needless to say, this is about as popular as a pig in a synagogue!   

SD

   
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on December 22, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
Needless to say, this is about as popular as a pig in a synagogue!   

SD
I'm going to steal that line. :)
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 22, 2017, 06:58:46 PM
Question open to all:
If universities need to be "improved", what specific actions do you propose?

Change how research is funded. Cut back direct funding, patent all research as it's produced, and charge a licence to use it. The research community evidences the usefulness of the research by paying for it, the university fires researchers who are not recovering the direct funding being cut back, and fund raising efforts improve if they can now show results for the $ contributed.

Lots of unemployed researchers lowering the demand for new researchers, forcing the exit of 'professional students', and injecting a healthy dose of rationality throughout the educational supply chain.

Needless to say, this is about as popular as a pig in a synagogue!   

SD

   

I think this is unpopular for a very good reason. I've met a few academic engineers who espouse this type of idea.  It seems to make sense for them.  (I have no opinion because it's not my area.)  But not all research is patentable or "sellable".   It's a very good thing, IMO, that humans continue to look into questions of pure science.   Not to mention the fact that much of the modern tech we enjoy (and presumably much of the modern tech my kids will enjoy) arrives through a random path of discoveries rooted in pure science.  I seem to remember reading an interesting meta-study on this.  I'll see if I can dig up the source.

There's a lot of pretty useless research out there, no question.   I just don't think the  cutting direct funding is the way to address it. There's little evidence that funding agencies have any success when directing research with $ in mind.   And mediocre researchers don't usually get substantial grants anyway (at least in Canada).

 
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on December 22, 2017, 09:09:50 PM
Agreed it's not the best solution, but it drives at three of the big underlying issues ....

Canadian Cancer Society raising money to find the cure for cancer since 1938. Raised hundreds of millions over the years, but they must be hiring the most useless researchers in the world. 80 years later they still haven't found the cure, AND they don't have any patents on cures they have discovered? Fundamental flaws in research accountability to donors, but not unique to health care.

Extremely poor commercialization of basic research. Finding the cure for cancel is useless; if it's cost per treatment cannot be reduced down to something reasonable. Not unique to healthcare (occurs in tech as well), but it speaks to a system wide strategic inability to launch. We can hatch researchers in great numbers, but can't get them to leave 'home'.

Institutional disdain for the business minded, as research is 'for the benefit of all'. Pro's/con's to both sides, but the result is no decision and no change in the status quo. Problem is that the status quo doesn't work well outside of sleepy and 'closed' environments, and the world is forcing change. 

SD
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 22, 2017, 10:09:58 PM
Agreed it's not the best solution, but it drives at three of the big underlying issues ....

Canadian Cancer Society raising money to find the cure for cancer since 1938. Raised hundreds of millions over the years, but they must be hiring the most useless researchers in the world. 80 years later they still haven't found the cure, AND they don't have any patents on cures they have discovered? Fundamental flaws in research accountability to donors, but not unique to health care.

Extremely poor commercialization of basic research. Finding the cure for cancel is useless; if it's cost per treatment cannot be reduced down to something reasonable. Not unique to healthcare (occurs in tech as well), but it speaks to a system wide strategic inability to launch. We can hatch researchers in great numbers, but can't get them to leave 'home'.

Institutional disdain for the business minded, as research is 'for the benefit of all'. Pro's/con's to both sides, but the result is no decision and no change in the status quo. Problem is that the status quo doesn't work well outside of sleepy and 'closed' environments, and the world is forcing change. 

SD

It's not only not the "best" solution:  It could (and IMO very likely would) do incredible harm to progress in science and technology.

And I don't know where you work (I presume academics?), but I totally disagree that there is institutional disdain for the business minded.  I've worked at three universities (Canada) and each of them has become ever more obsessed with the business case for everything, including research (industrial/business partnerships, yada yada), even in cases where it makes absolutely no sense.  Sure there are plenty of researchers who don't want anything to do with it, but it's hardly an institutional bias these days.  They're practically begging for corporate sponsorships etc.

The ownership of IP from publicly-funded or donor-funded research is a big issue.  I don't know much about it, and things might now be more sane, but a friend of mine in the medical field forged a successful startup a number of years ago and had *lots* to say on the matter, none positive.  The gist was that all of this public/donor money supporting research never comes full circle:  If the research is successful, then it typically needs a big pharma partner to bring to commercialization, and the IP ends up being transferred for peanuts.  If the product comes to market, the taxpayer/donor pays a healthy margin on the product they helped develop.   If the research is unsuccessful, then the taxpayer/donor foots the loss.  I'm very curious to hear from anyone on here with more first-hand knowledge.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 23, 2017, 06:03:50 PM
Agreed it's not the best solution, but it drives at three of the big underlying issues ....

Canadian Cancer Society raising money to find the cure for cancer since 1938. Raised hundreds of millions over the years, but they must be hiring the most useless researchers in the world. 80 years later they still haven't found the cure, AND they don't have any patents on cures they have discovered? Fundamental flaws in research accountability to donors, but not unique to health care.

Extremely poor commercialization of basic research. Finding the cure for cancel is useless; if it's cost per treatment cannot be reduced down to something reasonable. Not unique to healthcare (occurs in tech as well), but it speaks to a system wide strategic inability to launch. We can hatch researchers in great numbers, but can't get them to leave 'home'.

Institutional disdain for the business minded, as research is 'for the benefit of all'. Pro's/con's to both sides, but the result is no decision and no change in the status quo. Problem is that the status quo doesn't work well outside of sleepy and 'closed' environments, and the world is forcing change. 

SD

The problem to me is not that its not business minded enough...quite the opposite. Its too much like business. Its hierarchical, corporate and bureaucratic with middle age men directing everything. Exactly like a corporation. Researchers are doing exactly what is done by directors in corporations ... they are trying to increase the size of their teams.

What you really want to do is fund people who are good. And fund them when they are young and coming up with new ideas. All you might want to do beyond that is have small highly selective conferences to bring these guys together.

The greatest example of that is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelter_Island_Conference

I don't really get why we are having a debate about this. We already know how good research is done. Look at the Manhattan project, Shelter Island Conference, Bell Labs, Xerox Parc. The formula is simple:

1) Smart young people
2) A tonne of freedom in deciding research direction
3) interesting problems from the industry, millitary
4) Time, space and at most some help from expert technicians who know how to build things.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on December 24, 2017, 06:48:34 AM
I can attest to how business-minded universities are...

I work in R&D department of a company and we were trying to collaborate with a university prof's research group. However, their university legal office made such unreasonable demands that we couldn't get a research agreement and failed in proceeding further. In other cases, it took several months of negotiation between the university and our lawyers to agree on the terms.

Nowadays, whenever an academic researcher approaches us for possible collaboration, I tell them right away that IP issues could be pain in the ass and I'm just hesitant to get into any formal collaboration. Basically, universities trying to protect their IPs actually is making it more difficult for profs to collaborate with private industries, IMO.

Then there are profs who create their own companies on the side while they are getting paid by the university, working on technologies directly related to the research that are funded by public money... In a way they are getting the best of both worlds - the safety blanket working as a government worker (for those tenured) AND free money toward their entrepreneurship. It's basically a risk-free entrepreneurship. I don't know, but there is something wrong with this picture as well.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on December 24, 2017, 09:29:37 AM
University mandates are to produce basic research that others commercialize. Taxes on the commercialized product provides the funding for the next round of research; the more successful the commercialization is, the lower the tax burden, and the greater the value-add to the economy as a whole. Produce sh1te, and you get sh1te. The better you are at commercialization, the more the overall economy benefits.

Where the researcher owns the IP, the obvious solution is to commercialize privately.
The problem is that the typical skill set of a researcher is not the skill set of a CEO; and the researcher isn't into learning new skills, or listening to the business people they may have hired ('cause the 'guru' knows everything). A problem that often causes friction for DBA's, who typically do have the CEO skill set - and are often successful at commercialization. 

Ultimately it's a mindset thing.
Don't rail against the system, but rather position yourself to benefit from its strengths and weaknesses. You opinion really isn't relevant - your actions are.

SD

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on March 30, 2018, 11:11:57 AM
Turns out that going to Mars in a rocketship is identical to sexually assaulting women. You learn something new everyday:
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/patriarchal-race-colonize-mars-just-another-example-male-entitlement-ncna849681 (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/patriarchal-race-colonize-mars-just-another-example-male-entitlement-ncna849681)

Note that the article is posted at NBC.

Courtesy of the communications manager at Clayman Insitute for Gender Research at Standford:
http://gender.stanford.edu/ (http://gender.stanford.edu/)
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: flesh on May 30, 2018, 11:22:10 AM
Turns out that going to Mars in a rocketship is identical to sexually assaulting women. You learn something new everyday:
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/patriarchal-race-colonize-mars-just-another-example-male-entitlement-ncna849681 (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/patriarchal-race-colonize-mars-just-another-example-male-entitlement-ncna849681)

Note that the article is posted at NBC.

Courtesy of the communications manager at Clayman Insitute for Gender Research at Standford:
http://gender.stanford.edu/ (http://gender.stanford.edu/)

HOLY WTF. lol so weird.

Yin and yang man...dark and light.... satan god.... this isn't difficult.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on May 30, 2018, 12:27:04 PM
Turns out that going to Mars in a rocketship is identical to sexually assaulting women. You learn something new everyday:
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/patriarchal-race-colonize-mars-just-another-example-male-entitlement-ncna849681 (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/patriarchal-race-colonize-mars-just-another-example-male-entitlement-ncna849681)

Note that the article is posted at NBC.

Courtesy of the communications manager at Clayman Insitute for Gender Research at Standford:
http://gender.stanford.edu/ (http://gender.stanford.edu/)

HOLY WTF. lol so weird.

Yin and yang man...dark and light.... satan god.... this isn't difficult.

Don't forget that men are trying to destroy the Earth because it "affects women more than men".
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: cameronfen on June 30, 2018, 01:29:38 PM
Honestly I am as guilty as anyone else, but all these click bait stories are like the 1 in 1000000 that paint the othe side as rediculous.  It's the same for liberals where they post the story of that one trump supporter who says, lets not stop at seperating kids and parents into seperate detention facilities but lets see what we can get out of them with enhanced interogation.  These stories aren't actually repersentative of the other side and only increase polarization.