Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: clutch on November 22, 2017, 05:44:07 AM

Title: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on November 22, 2017, 05:44:07 AM
"Wilfrid Laurier graduate student delivers a wake-up call"
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/lindsay-shepherd-delivers-a-wake-up-call/article37033031/

A teaching assistant showed a five-minute clip of a debate on gender pronouns aired on a public service broadcaster in Ontario. The clip happened to feature Jordan Peterson, who has been associated with right-wing (some of them far-right) groups. The student was called into a reprimand with three professors.

The audio recording of that reprimand is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YdFlKaJv4g

What hypocrisy displayed by these professors!
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: wachtwoord on November 22, 2017, 08:35:39 AM
So the only scientist left in there is a 22 year old teaching assistant? I take off my hat for he for keeping her foot down.

"I thought, if this is something that can cause you to lose your teaching-assistant job, then I don't want to be here"
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 22, 2017, 12:07:49 PM
Quote
Richard Spencer is a figure without academic credibility so we can't present his views

Quote
We can't present his views because it would give him credibility

Yep that makes sense.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on November 22, 2017, 12:18:53 PM
What is going on at universities?  Complete insanity.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/11/the-surprising-revolt-at-reed/544682/

There is too much utter lunacy in this article for one quote to do it justice, but here's one quote anyway.

"During Martínez Valdivia’s lecture on Sappho, protesters sat together in the seats wearing all black; they confronted her after class, with at least one of them yelling at the professor about her past trauma, bringing her to tears. “I am intimidated by these students,” Martínez Valdivia later wrote, noting she is “scared to teach courses on race, gender, or sexuality, or even texts that bring these issues up in any way—and I am a gay mixed-race woman.” Such fear, she revealed in an op-ed for The Washington Post, prompted some of her colleagues— “including people of color, immigrants, and those without tenure”—to avoid lecturing altogether."
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 22, 2017, 12:19:30 PM
The interrogator is a Marxist:
https://www.facebook.com/drjordanpeterson/posts/1598402340223895

What I find interesting is that a scholar whose philosophy led to the death of 100 million people world wide is perfectly acceptable but the Agenda on TVO of all places is considered too controversial to show in a classroom.

Just for context, TVO which stands for TV Ontario and is an extremely innocuous television channel that is about as controversial as apple pie.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on November 22, 2017, 12:25:05 PM
The interrogator is a Marxist:
https://www.facebook.com/drjordanpeterson/posts/1598402340223895

What I find interesting is that a scholar whose philosophy led to the death of 100 million people world wide is perfectly acceptable but the Agenda on TVO of all places is considered too controversial to show in a classroom.

Just for context, TVO which stands for TV Ontario and is an extremely innocuous television channel that is about as controversial as apple pie.

I'm sure there are professors or college students that would tell you that apple pie is sexist.  Historically women made apple pies on thanksgiving more often than men.  Men, the barbarians, just ate them.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 22, 2017, 12:36:49 PM
The crazy alt-right professor that the TA presented was this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

Who is not alt-right, although he has many alt-right supporters.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on November 22, 2017, 01:04:17 PM
I've seen so many ridiculous stories like this over the past few years. I don't get it. Of all places, Uni's are exactly the places to have these debates.

If you ask me, Uni administrations/deans need to take a stronger stance. Perhaps maybe they would rather cater to 18 year-olds with upset feelings (who are paying $50k/year) rather than take a principled approach.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: no_free_lunch on November 22, 2017, 06:25:57 PM
People on the right need to be aware that their rights are under attack and this puts a spotlight on it.  Her career is now toast.  I see her as a martyr.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: boilermaker75 on November 22, 2017, 06:45:42 PM
https://www.npr.org/2016/08/26/491531869/university-of-chicago-tells-freshmen-it-does-not-support-trigger-warnings
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: wachtwoord on November 23, 2017, 03:34:38 AM
People on the right need to be aware that their rights are under attack and this puts a spotlight on it.  Her career is now toast.  I see her as a martyr.

These 3 people interrugating her are doing much worst than the vast majority of the #metoo accused in abusing their position to push through their personal believes. On top of that they do it in an academic setting and take sides on issues from a position of authority. They don't deserve to use the words 'scientific method' as they clearly don't understand what it entails or have no respect for it. They need to be named and shamed across mass media and have their careers destroyed. But hey, the (left wing controlled ) mainstream news outlets certainly won't do that as they are just the same.

We need to start making lists of these monsters so if anyone runs into them you can refuse to do business with them or deal with them in any fashion, in effect isolating them.

The sad part is that this is common in universities (especially sociology and social studies related) but generally there is no proof.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on November 23, 2017, 08:47:38 AM
Lack of political diversity in campus:
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/the-politics-of-the-professoriat-political-diversity-on-campus-1.4280778

The irony of killing (political) diversity to promote diversity...

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: DTEJD1997 on November 23, 2017, 11:51:52 AM
People on the right need to be aware that their rights are under attack and this puts a spotlight on it.  Her career is now toast.  I see her as a martyr.

These 3 people interrugating her are doing much worst than the vast majority of the #metoo accused in abusing their position to push through their personal believes. On top of that they do it in an academic setting and take sides on issues from a position of authority. They don't deserve to use the words 'scientific method' as they clearly don't understand what it entails or have no respect for it. They need to be named and shamed across mass media and have their careers destroyed. But hey, the (left wing controlled ) mainstream news outlets certainly won't do that as they are just the same.

We need to start making lists of these monsters so if anyone runs into them you can refuse to do business with them or deal with them in any fashion, in effect isolating them.

The sad part is that this is common in universities (especially sociology and social studies related) but generally there is no proof.

Hey all:

Academia in the West has been corrupted.  I think it first started with the money, now it has spread to ideology.

While corruption is terrible, and very well may well lead to the downfall of the West...this is probably a long term, multi-generational process.  I think the more immediate problem may be is where do these "leftists" go next if they are not put in check?  My guess is that they start attacking each other.  This has already started.  Who wants to bet that within a year from this Thanksgiving, the left will have totally turned on the Clintons?  This is already starting...

Once all the ideologically impure members of the left have been culled, then what?

I will guess that they start going after EVERYBODY who is not part of the protected class OR anybody who disagrees with them.  I would be willing to bet that these SJW's on the left will be calling for "re-education camps" or even worse.  It has happened before, and certainly could happen again.

The time to stop them is now....
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on November 23, 2017, 01:04:00 PM
The place for radicals is a university, and the more radical they are  - the better it is for everybody. Everybody grows old & complacent.
Worst that happens is someone says the wrong thing, gets into a fight, and ends up in hospital for a time; the organized get a needle, and a visit from the men in black.

Most often the issues are real, & should be addressed going forward.
Fail to address them, & society runs the risk of ambitious people using them to push their own agendas. An outcome that often ends sadly.

Cultural appropriation has been the norm for almost all history.
One simply invaded a neighbor, & told them they were all going to follow 'your way' from this day forth; anybody who objected lost their head (ending protest). The 'conquered' simply 'assimilated', and then slowly converted the 'conquerer' to 'their way'. Whichever way was best for the local conditions survived, and the hybridization process made everybody better.     

Let them protest.
 
SD

 
       
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on November 23, 2017, 07:47:42 PM
We need to start making lists of these monsters so if anyone runs into them you can refuse to do business with them or deal with them in any fashion, in effect isolating them.

Really? This was the mentality of a certain German regime, it doesn't work because it's dehumanizing. This is not how solutions emerge, only how conflict is needlessly escalated.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 23, 2017, 10:17:52 PM
Seriously? You guys are now freaking out about the snowflakes? Jeez...
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: wachtwoord on November 24, 2017, 01:49:29 AM
We need to start making lists of these monsters so if anyone runs into them you can refuse to do business with them or deal with them in any fashion, in effect isolating them.

Really? This was the mentality of a certain German regime, it doesn't work because it's dehumanizing. This is not how solutions emerge, only how conflict is needlessly escalated.

It is when the damn monsters are heading universities. They need to be removed.

I'm always surprised how the German regime you are referring to is implicated with the political right. They were national socialists (hence the name of their party NSDAP) and are of the same side we should be looking to fight. It's the natural end-station of any nationalist socialist movement as they love giving all power to the government and similar institutions to protect and want to ban and delegitimize certain opinions and facts they don't agree with.

Socialist propaganda was quite successful it seems.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on November 24, 2017, 02:14:43 AM
My comment was on effective problem solving techniques, not which side is right or wrong or liberal or conservative.

SD (as usual) put it eloquently: The place for radicals is a university. My addition is that there are radicals on either end of the political spectrum, and each has legitimate gripes.

What really bothers me is the divisiveness which undermines efforts towards any solution. And this isn't directed at you, it's a general comment. I've seen it from both "sides". Each has their own way of saying: "Let's put all those problem people in a group and systematically dismiss them". And then they go on to tell you how, e.g. "The liberals are all snowflakes", "The conservatives are all regressive" etc. My response is, Has ignoring a problem ever solved it?
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 24, 2017, 03:55:00 AM
Hey, but at least you don't have Trump. So much more civilised to have a teenager who wants to hug the world running the place. You reap what you sow.

Tough to be liberal, leftist and not end up socialist only to realise after a few million dead people that for one, yes God did create man and woman and trying to deny the obvious is insane. Socialism eats its young and to think that Canada only has a intellectual problem limited to its universities is naive.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/easter-bunny-1.4067854

To invert and from a non-Christian point of view: Why would such behaviour by the professors shock you? Why the hell can they not do it and who are you to tell me that I cannot stand behind those professors 100%? There is no absolute truth right, so ultimately let me decide what I like and if there is enough of us then we'll simply get rid of those who disagree. Happening in front of your very eyes already. Don't like what we say, we'll come down hard. Don't like the way we tell you to raise kids, we'll take them.

I love Canada, two of my kids are Canadian, but the place scares the living daylights out of me.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 24, 2017, 05:37:43 AM
Comment and Question.

-There are exceptions but I find one ("us") may have more in common than it superficially appears with others who are "different" ("them").

-Let's say I agree that we need to move in a certain direction along the collective/individual spectrum, can you elaborate on: "...so ultimately let me decide what I like and if there is enough of us then we'll simply get rid of those who disagree... Don't like what we say, we'll come down hard."?
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 24, 2017, 07:02:26 AM
Comment and Question.

-There are exceptions but I find one ("us") may have more in common than it superficially appears with others who are "different" ("them").

-Let's say I agree that we need to move in a certain direction along the collective/individual spectrum, can you elaborate on: "...so ultimately let me decide what I like and if there is enough of us then we'll simply get rid of those who disagree... Don't like what we say, we'll come down hard."?
The elitists in the (socialist) tribe will decide the direction/spectrum and the collective and individuals will be separated with the latter risking to ultimately be added to the estimated 100m-200m body count. There is no place for the individual and this girl at the university and the couple in Hamilton is finding this out.

I don't expect you to agree with it, but humans are inherently evil and once we try and ignore God and run things ourselves (no place for God in socialism) then you reap the whirlwind. Canada is aggressively purging itself of Christians and embracing socialism and no better example than telling Christian parents you will take their kids unless they raise them according to the dictates of the collective rather than our Creator https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-ontario-passes-totalitarian-bill-allowing-govt-to-take-kids-from-c
How far do you think you need to travel to get from telling a family how to raise their kids to shooting someone for not doing it? History is simply repeating itself.

If you ask your question under the assumption that we all live under the 2nd greatest commandment of "love your neighbour as you love yourself" you have a different outcome and if those professors and the girl pursued that ideal, maybe the conversation would have sounded and ended differently.  Emptying yourself for the one next to you is only achieved through grace, but us humans including myself don't like to hear that. Such is life; we're not good at learning from our mistakes.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on November 24, 2017, 07:21:23 AM
University professors, generally speaking are the worst. A lot of them are genuine and care. But generally they are people(especially in the business colleges) who had short and unproductive professional careers who now stroke their egos by reciting textbooks and a rehashed version of their own careers, but in a glorified light. Then you also have the career professors who live in the academia bubble and have no clue that what works in theory in a textbook doesn't always pan out in real life. I've read something that like 85%+ are bleeding heart liberals too. There is little more stimulating to the ego than having a captive audience of malleable minds for 3 hours a week.

What's funny is the worst I'd ever personally experienced was a guy who was a walking cartoon. 6'5 white dude from Georgia, jacked as hell, loud raspy voice. Aggressive. He also happened to hate white men(the females he would line up in the front row and blatantly hit on). He would incessantly rant about how the world just f*cks blacks, Hispanics, and homosexuals. 90% of his breathe was spent screaming about social injustices. He was an English teacher. One of the more accomplished as well. I sought out his classes because if you told him what he wanted to hear, it was a guaranteed A. He would routinely manipulate Shakespeare sonnets into rants on modern day inequality and discrimination lectures that ended with him throwing chairs across the room and punching holes in the walls. It was quite the show. Our final exam(50% of the overall grade) was an in class essay. The subject? What was Shakespeare saying in his sonnets about the treatment of gays and Jews in the 2000's! Yes this was a graduate level English course!

Well fast forward a decade plus, and I was scrolling through the New York Post and found this.

https://nypost.com/2017/03/28/teacher-allegedly-tried-seducing-student-with-shakespeare/

Wasnt surprising one bit. What was originally suprising was that this guy was still teaching, even when I was in school as a decade prior he was kicked out of a super liberal west coast university for beating up a 21 year old student who happened to be the ex-boyfriend of a 20 year old student that he was currently dating.


Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on November 24, 2017, 07:55:09 AM
Tomorrows politician is in today's political science class, cutting their teeth in today's more toxic 'protest' environment.
The best on all  sides will rise to the top, & clash against each other on the way up. Prize fights aren't pretty, but the result is that every 'winner' knows how to use that environment, and becomes very good at what they do. Every politician has to learn how to stay alive, and character assassination has long been an instrument of statecraft.

Allowing the protests, free speech, manipulation and passion an outlet; lets words and ideas replace bullets, and bombs. Way safer for everybody, but the processes have to be allowed to run their course. Hearing contrary opinion, whether we want to or not, is a healthy thing.

Most politicians aren't graceful losers. The civilized approach is an opposition bench, and isolation of the tone deaf.
Those who opt for the violent solutions meet the men in black.

SD
   

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 24, 2017, 09:57:21 AM
I love Canada, two of my kids are Canadian, but the place scares the living daylights out of me.
You are terrified by .... Canada? Wow!
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: no_free_lunch on November 24, 2017, 10:12:04 AM
rb, could you be more obnoxious?  Would you care to actually respond to the real arguments listed.  E.g. people being disciplined at universities for offering a differing view point.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Jurgis on November 24, 2017, 10:51:03 AM
CoBF scares the living daylights out of me.  ::)
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 24, 2017, 02:17:29 PM
rb, could you be more obnoxious?  Would you care to actually respond to the real arguments listed.  E.g. people being disciplined at universities for offering a differing view point.
I could. I didn't try very hard.

Btw, I guessing that Mr.B musings on socialism, the impending genocide, Christianity, the Creator, and his fear of Canada etc must have been really on point regarding the disciplinary process at universities since I didn't see you have a problem with that.

But now since you've asked about universities. I wrote on the board many times that you get a big problem when you turn students into customers through ridiculous tuition fees. That's really more of a problem in the US. Not so much in Canada (except for some elite programs) though I fear that we are heading towards that way. But that's not the case here.

Canadian universities for the most part are actually pretty mainstream, conservative institutions. Wilfred Laurier definitely is. They hate headlines, they hate controversy, and they do not want it nor court it. The whole freedom to explore your inner self and whatever cooky ideas you may have is more a thing that goes on the glossy brochure they hand out teenagers than a real thing. Yea they'll allow a lot of stuff but when something comes close to controversy or wing nuttery (right or left) they'll slam on the breaks pretty hard.

That meeting was total bullshit. They don't care one bit about trans people, transfobia, or whether some students may be offended. The topic and the guy in the video (Peterson) can be a hot one. The university wants to stay the hell away from that. They don't want some dumb ass 19 year old lefty launch some youtube video in search of social media fame. Basically wanted to avoid the exactly the type of situation they are in now. You just witnessed how the sausage is made.

Now did they handle this wrongly? Yes. Were the people in that meeting dumb? Yes. Will they do it differently in the future? Probably. Btw, all this stuff is really a total non issue up here.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 24, 2017, 04:20:21 PM
You guys are marks for believing in formal education to begin with. The education system, at least in the United States, is largely a money laundering outfit designed to provide what amounts to make-work jobs for the "elites."

People on the right need to be aware that their rights are under attack and this puts a spotlight on it.  Her career is now toast.  I see her as a martyr.

You might appreciate this song, No Free Lunch. The whole western world is under assault and nobody wants to do ANYTHING about it!

https://youtu.be/tH4p_MX4YG8?t=5s
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 24, 2017, 05:52:43 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 24, 2017, 06:25:20 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.

It's time to wake up and realize that formal education is bullshit and has been for decades. The push towards making it nearly mandatory to attend college has created a very helpful brainwashing tool for those in power.

When you realize that the education system has no integrity, you stop expecting it to behave in a way that is sensible. And then its behavior makes a whole lot more sense.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 24, 2017, 06:26:42 PM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rb on November 24, 2017, 08:37:20 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Ok let me try to keep most of the stark out so I don't piss off any more people.

Not everything has to be a political liberal vs conservative thing. So you point out an idiot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Other times an idiot is just an idiot. Should we just outlaw all the things some don't like? Like humanities? I think Jeff Imlet was an idiot. Should we outlaw CEOs?

Maybe that doesn't make much sense so let me take another track. Poetry. I don't like poetry. I don't get it. I hated it in school. If poets and poetry weren't around my odds with girls will likely be increased (I actually tried to write one once... sad). I don't think any poets made any money ever. So it's a totally uneconomic activity. At the same time poetry has been with us for millennia. So it's pretty obvious that humanity and society for some reason needs poets just as it needs engineers (even though engineering is a more lucrative profession). So as much as the efficient animal in me would like to eliminate poets and poetry the analytical human in me recognizes that for some reason they are necessary for the proper functioning of the species and scoiety.

We as humans as a species are not robotic automatons (as people of CoBF maybe would like us to be) we need engineers but we also need artists. We need hard nosed mathematicians and we need bleeding heart sociologists. It's like an yin-yang thing. One doesn't work too long without the other.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 24, 2017, 10:22:45 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Ok let me try to keep most of the stark out so I don't piss off any more people.

Not everything has to be a political liberal vs conservative thing. So you point out an idiot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Other times an idiot is just an idiot. Should we just outlaw all the things some don't like? Like humanities? I think Jeff Imlet was an idiot. Should we outlaw CEOs?

Maybe that doesn't make much sense so let me take another track. Poetry. I don't like poetry. I don't get it. I hated it in school. If poets and poetry weren't around my odds with girls will likely be increased (I actually tried to write one once... sad). I don't think any poets made any money ever. So it's a totally uneconomic activity. At the same time poetry has been with us for millennia. So it's pretty obvious that humanity and society for some reason needs poets just as it needs engineers (even though engineering is a more lucrative profession). So as much as the efficient animal in me would like to eliminate poets and poetry the analytical human in me recognizes that for some reason they are necessary for the proper functioning of the species and scoiety.

We as humans as a species are not robotic automatons (as people of CoBF maybe would like us to be) we need engineers but we also need artists. We need hard nosed mathematicians and we need bleeding heart sociologists. It's like an yin-yang thing. One doesn't work too long without the other.

I agree with you that there is a value in the humanities...I just think that in their current form they are so destructive, misleading and useless as to be not worth preserving.

I also find your argument confusing. You seem to be equating Art to the study of humanities in universities and saying that without funding the universities we won't have poetry. But great Art has almost never come out of universities. The two have nothing to do with each other.

As for sociologists...I can't actually think of anything of enduring value that has come from the field. I'm also not sure how sociology is supposed to fit in to a Western society. In China's its very clear to me that there is value in sociology. But I don't even get how its used in the US or Canada in any sort of positive manner. I am genuinely curious. Does anyone know?
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 25, 2017, 01:01:14 AM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Ok let me try to keep most of the stark out so I don't piss off any more people.

Not everything has to be a political liberal vs conservative thing. So you point out an idiot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Other times an idiot is just an idiot. Should we just outlaw all the things some don't like? Like humanities? I think Jeff Imlet was an idiot. Should we outlaw CEOs?

Maybe that doesn't make much sense so let me take another track. Poetry. I don't like poetry. I don't get it. I hated it in school. If poets and poetry weren't around my odds with girls will likely be increased (I actually tried to write one once... sad). I don't think any poets made any money ever. So it's a totally uneconomic activity. At the same time poetry has been with us for millennia. So it's pretty obvious that humanity and society for some reason needs poets just as it needs engineers (even though engineering is a more lucrative profession). So as much as the efficient animal in me would like to eliminate poets and poetry the analytical human in me recognizes that for some reason they are necessary for the proper functioning of the species and scoiety.

We as humans as a species are not robotic automatons (as people of CoBF maybe would like us to be) we need engineers but we also need artists. We need hard nosed mathematicians and we need bleeding heart sociologists. It's like an yin-yang thing. One doesn't work too long without the other.

I agree with you that there is a value in the humanities...I just think that in their current form they are so destructive, misleading and useless as to be not worth preserving.

I also find your argument confusing. You seem to be equating Art to the study of humanities in universities and saying that without funding the universities we won't have poetry. But great Art has almost never come out of universities. The two have nothing to do with each other.

As for sociologists...I can't actually think of anything of enduring value that has come from the field. I'm also not sure how sociology is supposed to fit in to a Western society. In China's its very clear to me that there is value in sociology. But I don't even get how its used in the US or Canada in any sort of positive manner. I am genuinely curious. Does anyone know?

Rukawa firstly an apogology because I mistakenly hit the report button on your email as I was scrolling up on my iPad to respond. Not sure what happens, but if Sanjeev’s Men in Black show up just tell them what happened.

Anyway, when I found out midway through my 5 year law degree that I wanted to pursue my hobby of value investing I had a conversation with the head of PWC, head of the largest bank, ex Minister of Finance and largest commodity in and exporter in the country I was studying on what to do, because there were no formal way of studying for it other than the CFA really. The CFA was also fairly obscure in those days. It was an informal discussion over a beer or two and the conversation eventually turned to the value of a university education.

It was eventually concluded that the value does not lie in was is taught in the class room, but lies in the fact that you learn important social skills, not in sociology, but in the constant social interaction with people which is generally a bigger part of university life than classes. It was also thought that the network what these guys built at Uni served them very well in later life. Lastly, you get to learn now to manage and work under pressure, because you have to juggle a decent work load with a generally busy life, which is an important skill set to acquire at that stage of your life.

If the above is broadly the case then I’m just not convinced you need to spend 5 years of your life and a truck load of money to acquire those skills if they are really that important.

P.S. I did take Sociology and for the life of me cannot remember anything I was taught or how it applied. Compare that versus reading “Influence the Psychology of Persuasion” and it seems like weighing a feather versus a bar of gold. Took Sociology for 3 years, cost a lot of money versus $20 or so and few hours to read the book.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 25, 2017, 01:22:30 AM
It seems that there has been a slide by the two institutions mentioned here, UT & Laurier to fuzzy thinking or a warm mush of socialist ideas. It is also noteworthy that UT used to be under the Control of the Church of England and Laurier started life as “ Evangelical Lutheran Seminary of Canada “. You see the same pattern at Yale, Harvard, Oxford etc. 

Certainly setting society up differently than 50 years ago.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 25, 2017, 02:22:21 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 25, 2017, 04:24:41 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P

The other thing I'll say, is that in my mind it isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's an issue of the "elites" of all stripes creating rentier institutions that gut many financially, often with little reward. There is value in the universities in scientific research departments, but the value proposition for new recruits is less and less attractive all the time more generally and the universities ARE used to appeal to authority on many matters on which they are not qualified to do so.

These are the same sort of crew who came up with and are still trying to sell us the Efficient Market Hypothesis. What's important to know is that unlike the harder sciences, sociology is mostly made up and can change substantially with new inputs. An education system dictating those inputs, in my view, jams the evolutionary flow of ideas in society by promoting its own ideas at the expense of others, for its means and the means of its benefactors.

It doesn't matter to me whether it's liberal or conservative; monopolies on credentialing and what ideas are permitted leads to intellectual decay and rot. When it's done for the enrichment of a few or the centralization of society to enforce "beneficial" cultural norms, both are dangerous.

Unconditional loyalty to institutions, whether university, church, political party, sports team, etc. is a surefire way to get taken advantage of... bigly.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 25, 2017, 05:32:01 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P

The other thing I'll say, is that in my mind it isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's an issue of the "elites" of all stripes creating rentier institutions that gut many financially, often with little reward. There is value in the universities in scientific research departments, but the value proposition for new recruits is less and less attractive all the time more generally and the universities ARE used to appeal to authority on many matters on which they are not qualified to do so.

These are the same sort of crew who came up with and are still trying to sell us the Efficient Market Hypothesis. What's important to know is that unlike the harder sciences, sociology is mostly made up and can change substantially with new inputs. An education system dictating those inputs, in my view, jams the evolutionary flow of ideas in society by promoting its own ideas at the expense of others, for its means and the means of its benefactors.

It doesn't matter to me whether it's liberal or conservative; monopolies on credentialing and what ideas are permitted leads to intellectual decay and rot. When it's done for the enrichment of a few or the centralization of society to enforce "beneficial" cultural norms, both are dangerous.

Unconditional loyalty to institutions, whether university, church, political party, sports team, etc. is a surefire way to get taken advantage of... bigly.

Great last line.
Also St John's College has always intrigued me. As I understand it you basically spend three years reading what is thought to be great books and having group discussions. Just googled the list and well worth a look to understand what they're trying to achieve https://lettersrepublic.wordpress.com/sjc/ I see the quran is missing, I thought that used to be on the list too. Anyway if you going to spend your time at Uni, this might be one of the better ways of doing it.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 25, 2017, 06:03:53 AM
Higher Ground

Want to get your degree in engineering,
Straight as an arrow through higher learning,
But soft stuff and even poetry,
May have some kind of utility,
An open mind building opportunity,
As the brain tends to lose its plasticity.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: SharperDingaan on November 25, 2017, 08:46:05 AM
Engineering schools traditionally 'make' their students take at least 1-2 'sociology' classes as electives - to round them out. As throughout history, and across cultures, many of the best engineers (Oppenheimer Da Vinci, Brunel, Jobs, etc.) in their generation have also had some 'sociology' background - it's hard to argue against the basic sense of this. Of course - 'student' engineers hate it.

I did 2 political science classes, primarily because the girls looked great. A truly useless subject as taught by the professor; but very useful when I compared the frameworks against what I had seen in other parts of the world, and the odd riot or two. Ultimately I was glad I took the subject, played the game, took my A's, and moved on. The problem wasn't the subject, it was the professors.

In much of academia the best do, and the rest teach. When numbers were small the best did rigorous & very good research, while the rest taught material that was relatively unknown - & therefore 'new'. With technology & bigger numbers; the research now lacks rigor, and the rest teach 'ancient' material that is often better presented on the internet. It's not the subjects, it's the people.

Ivory towers haven't moved with the times, and unfortunately we're all now paying for it.
Sadly, there are never enough vandals when you want them!

SD
 
   
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: cubsfan on November 25, 2017, 08:51:11 AM
In much of academia the best do, and the rest teach.

It's not the subjects, it's the people.


Hear, Hear !
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Rainforesthiker on November 25, 2017, 12:31:39 PM
Just cut funding to the humanities. Problem solved. I don't see why taxpayers should be compelled to fund this moron who believes there is no such thing as biological sex:
https://youtu.be/jcDKCmC9gWU?t=40s

He is a U of T professor:
http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/ (http://sds.utoronto.ca/people/instructors/440-2/)

I mean he is a fucking idiot. As a professor he should be representative of the shared understanding and knowledge of a whole society that has been painstakingly been accumulated over centuries of experience. Does anyone think he comes close?

I really don't get how even liberals are not outraged by this. In any other field this level of incompetence would not be tolerated.
Ok let me try to keep most of the stark out so I don't piss off any more people.

Not everything has to be a political liberal vs conservative thing. So you point out an idiot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Other times an idiot is just an idiot. Should we just outlaw all the things some don't like? Like humanities? I think Jeff Imlet was an idiot. Should we outlaw CEOs?

Maybe that doesn't make much sense so let me take another track. Poetry. I don't like poetry. I don't get it. I hated it in school. If poets and poetry weren't around my odds with girls will likely be increased (I actually tried to write one once... sad). I don't think any poets made any money ever. So it's a totally uneconomic activity. At the same time poetry has been with us for millennia. So it's pretty obvious that humanity and society for some reason needs poets just as it needs engineers (even though engineering is a more lucrative profession). So as much as the efficient animal in me would like to eliminate poets and poetry the analytical human in me recognizes that for some reason they are necessary for the proper functioning of the species and scoiety.

We as humans as a species are not robotic automatons (as people of CoBF maybe would like us to be) we need engineers but we also need artists. We need hard nosed mathematicians and we need bleeding heart sociologists. It's like an yin-yang thing. One doesn't work too long without the other.

There is a pretty wide divide between “outlawing something” vs. saying that the state should not forcibly extract money from people through threat of violence to pay for things they don’t want.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: no_free_lunch on November 26, 2017, 06:12:03 AM
The problem is that Jordan Peterson is only controversial because protestors have MADE him controversial.  I just see him as a faculty member who wants to debate.  However, as we have seen even on this thread, protest alone is enough to put him in this grey area where his views shouldn't be aired.

So we have cause (protest something you don't like) and effect (it is now considered controversial) and the far left learns that they can shut down the opposing view point.

Let me then draw my own conclusion.  As people internalize this capability of protest they escalate it.  I think this type of thinking leads to tactics like the violence used against Trump supporters in the US.  People showing up at rallies and beating on anyone with a red hat, macing people, etc.  It is then backed up by the intellectual left in the media ("violence at trump rally", without mentioning that it was protesters beating on trump supporters) or by sympathetic government officials (stand down orders to the police).  You better believe I think this is an issue.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: ScottHall on November 26, 2017, 11:58:28 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P

The other thing I'll say, is that in my mind it isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's an issue of the "elites" of all stripes creating rentier institutions that gut many financially, often with little reward. There is value in the universities in scientific research departments, but the value proposition for new recruits is less and less attractive all the time more generally and the universities ARE used to appeal to authority on many matters on which they are not qualified to do so.

These are the same sort of crew who came up with and are still trying to sell us the Efficient Market Hypothesis. What's important to know is that unlike the harder sciences, sociology is mostly made up and can change substantially with new inputs. An education system dictating those inputs, in my view, jams the evolutionary flow of ideas in society by promoting its own ideas at the expense of others, for its means and the means of its benefactors.

It doesn't matter to me whether it's liberal or conservative; monopolies on credentialing and what ideas are permitted leads to intellectual decay and rot. When it's done for the enrichment of a few or the centralization of society to enforce "beneficial" cultural norms, both are dangerous.

Unconditional loyalty to institutions, whether university, church, political party, sports team, etc. is a surefire way to get taken advantage of... bigly.

Great last line.
Also St John's College has always intrigued me. As I understand it you basically spend three years reading what is thought to be great books and having group discussions. Just googled the list and well worth a look to understand what they're trying to achieve https://lettersrepublic.wordpress.com/sjc/ I see the quran is missing, I thought that used to be on the list too. Anyway if you going to spend your time at Uni, this might be one of the better ways of doing it.

That seems like an interesting place; alternative educations are, to my mind, one of the most useful forms of R&D out there.

One thing I'll say about this Jordan Peterson thing is that he does not appear to dislike transgender people at all. Reading up on him, he's seemingly willing to identify people as male/female (whichever role they're portraying) but believes that the addition of dozens of new gender identifiers makes it untenable to keep track of, if use is mandated. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable position to me.

When you create new gender identifiers, you're making an attempt to morph sociology with one of those "new inputs" I talked about earlier. I, personally, don't have any problem with this. This is the evolutionary flow of ideas at work; ideas created and "tested" to see which ones win out in the market of ideas. The issue comes in when that market is not allowed to fulfill its purpose, I suppose; by mandating the acceptable of an idea, it is not as thoroughly tested as it would be if it had to duke it out in the gladiator's pit like the rest of them.

Notably, Mr. B, you and I are on two opposite ends of the spectrum here. You appear to be a man who takes his faith quite seriously; I have no faith in any god, and am a gender dysphoric person myself. To me this has nothing to do with identity, but rather intellectual humility and an openness to new and conflicting ideas.

The trans community should absolutely be allowed to attempt to morph sociology as it wishes, including the creation of new gender identifiers, but so too may other groups attempt to morph the clay of sociology into whatever image they so desire. And of course, you cannot force another to live with your own world view.

To me this is the opposite side of the coin of the NFL protests here in the United States. In our situation, it has been political nationalists trying to tell the rest of us what we can and can't do because it's "disrespectful of the flag" or "disrespectful of military service." Neither of those should be granted immunity from sociological criticism either; those who try to deny athletes their right to expression are authoritarians in the same manner of the universities going after Mr. Peterson.

I feel we are in dangerous times as far as ideology goes; both liberal and conservative ideologies have been moving to become increasingly authoritarian and it is something I am watching very closely.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 26, 2017, 12:30:14 PM
"I feel we are in dangerous times as far as ideology goes; both liberal and conservative ideologies have been moving to become increasingly authoritarian and it is something I am watching very closely."

http://www.people-press.org/interactives/political-polarization-1994-2017/

Disclosure:
-believe in cycles
-trying to understand mean reverting forces

Consistent is nice but "mixed" consistency may have enduring advantages.
In history, new ideas have come up in university circles. Not seeing it right now. Will keep watching too.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on November 26, 2017, 02:14:11 PM
Found a pretty interesting discussion with Jordan Peterson and Camille Paglia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hIVnmUdXM
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: EliG on November 26, 2017, 03:14:55 PM
Interesting thread by Noah Smith (@Noahpinion):

https://twitter.com/Noahpinion/status/934827937068589057
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: MrB on November 27, 2017, 05:38:00 AM
Are we trolling again Scott or trying to make honest arguments?

I'm expressing a view I think there is some merit to, but in a tone of parody of the existing thread. This whole section has gone totally clownshoes.  :P

The other thing I'll say, is that in my mind it isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's an issue of the "elites" of all stripes creating rentier institutions that gut many financially, often with little reward. There is value in the universities in scientific research departments, but the value proposition for new recruits is less and less attractive all the time more generally and the universities ARE used to appeal to authority on many matters on which they are not qualified to do so.

These are the same sort of crew who came up with and are still trying to sell us the Efficient Market Hypothesis. What's important to know is that unlike the harder sciences, sociology is mostly made up and can change substantially with new inputs. An education system dictating those inputs, in my view, jams the evolutionary flow of ideas in society by promoting its own ideas at the expense of others, for its means and the means of its benefactors.

It doesn't matter to me whether it's liberal or conservative; monopolies on credentialing and what ideas are permitted leads to intellectual decay and rot. When it's done for the enrichment of a few or the centralization of society to enforce "beneficial" cultural norms, both are dangerous.

Unconditional loyalty to institutions, whether university, church, political party, sports team, etc. is a surefire way to get taken advantage of... bigly.

Great last line.
Also St John's College has always intrigued me. As I understand it you basically spend three years reading what is thought to be great books and having group discussions. Just googled the list and well worth a look to understand what they're trying to achieve https://lettersrepublic.wordpress.com/sjc/ I see the quran is missing, I thought that used to be on the list too. Anyway if you going to spend your time at Uni, this might be one of the better ways of doing it.

That seems like an interesting place; alternative educations are, to my mind, one of the most useful forms of R&D out there.

One thing I'll say about this Jordan Peterson thing is that he does not appear to dislike transgender people at all. Reading up on him, he's seemingly willing to identify people as male/female (whichever role they're portraying) but believes that the addition of dozens of new gender identifiers makes it untenable to keep track of, if use is mandated. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable position to me.

When you create new gender identifiers, you're making an attempt to morph sociology with one of those "new inputs" I talked about earlier. I, personally, don't have any problem with this. This is the evolutionary flow of ideas at work; ideas created and "tested" to see which ones win out in the market of ideas. The issue comes in when that market is not allowed to fulfill its purpose, I suppose; by mandating the acceptable of an idea, it is not as thoroughly tested as it would be if it had to duke it out in the gladiator's pit like the rest of them.

Notably, Mr. B, you and I are on two opposite ends of the spectrum here. You appear to be a man who takes his faith quite seriously; I have no faith in any god, and am a gender dysphoric person myself. To me this has nothing to do with identity, but rather intellectual humility and an openness to new and conflicting ideas.

The trans community should absolutely be allowed to attempt to morph sociology as it wishes, including the creation of new gender identifiers, but so too may other groups attempt to morph the clay of sociology into whatever image they so desire. And of course, you cannot force another to live with your own world view.

To me this is the opposite side of the coin of the NFL protests here in the United States. In our situation, it has been political nationalists trying to tell the rest of us what we can and can't do because it's "disrespectful of the flag" or "disrespectful of military service." Neither of those should be granted immunity from sociological criticism either; those who try to deny athletes their right to expression are authoritarians in the same manner of the universities going after Mr. Peterson.

I feel we are in dangerous times as far as ideology goes; both liberal and conservative ideologies have been moving to become increasingly authoritarian and it is something I am watching very closely.

I recently finished a book "Defying Hitler", which is a memoir written over the decades leading up to 1933. What makes it so fascinating is the fact there are so few books written "in the moment" about these mind bending, large, historical social disasters. Almost all books are reconstructions after the fact, which does not equip you as  well to spot the lead up to another one of these events. Your comments ring true unfortunately in the context of the book and the basic steps leading up to Genocide http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8stagesofgenocide.html. There are certainly more "classification" and "symbolization" going on than a few years ago. However as long as there are enough people that are willing to reach across various social divides and respect others' differences then all should be well.  I do however think it is naive to assume we will never repeat such mistakes again and the trade off is asymmetric. Blank Swan event if you will and in large part the trick to avoid it is to pay attention; little to be lost by doing it and a lot of humanity to be gained.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: maxthetrade on December 01, 2017, 11:35:50 AM
Here is an excerpt related to this subject from Chris Leithner's excellent letter:

"What ails Western nations? Today, most rulers and their puppets in the media
and universities are, in effect, Marxists; specifically, they’re useful idiots (examples
are countless; recent ones include this, this, this, this and this).2 They incessantly spout cant such as “diversity,” “equality” and “sustainability” as means to
impose an evil ideology upon the ruled. For their part, most of the benighted,
having suffered years of indoctrination (the anointed cunningly mislabel it “education”)
and egged by the media, demand that their rulers supply more Marxism!"

http://www.chrisleithner.ca/newsletter/2016-2018/oct17_newsletter.pdf

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: clutch on December 02, 2017, 05:18:14 AM
These people have this very narrow lense through which they view the world. As a non-white man I cringe whenever they turn every issue into a power struggle against white supremacy / patriarchy. The message is just getting old... Can't these people be any more creative??
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 02, 2017, 04:08:41 PM
Just read this which is tangentially related:
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/mar/07/warren-buffett-climate-change-insurance-policy-berkshire-hathaway-shareholder-letter

I am really really shocked that this guy is a professor at Michigan.

Quote
As the rate of global warming increases, so will the rate of climate change-related disasters – and presumably the rate of insurance payouts. It’s a lot easier to make money off of declining risks – as in the case of auto accidents – than increasing risks, as in the case of climate change.

Advertisement

Of course, Buffett argues that insurance prices can be adjusted upwards each year to take account of new climate information that emerges. But if climate change is accelerating, even a yearly “true-up” in insurance rates will not be enough to protect insurance company profit margins. Current rates will always lag behind accelerating growth in damages and claims. The annual adjustment will merely slow down the widening gap between them. Airlines illustrate just how hard it can be to keep rates rising in step with fluctuations in jet fuel prices.

Its seems that if your a leftist professor parroting leftist ideas you can essentially say whatever bullshit you want. How the fuck is it even possible to be this stupid. AND THIS IS A FREAKING PROFESSOR. This is all he does everyday. I mean WTF?!
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 02, 2017, 09:26:26 PM
I am really really shocked that this guy is a professor at Michigan.

Its seems that if your a leftist professor parroting leftist ideas you can essentially say whatever bullshit you want. How the fuck is it even possible to be this stupid. AND THIS IS A FREAKING PROFESSOR. This is all he does everyday. I mean WTF?!

The sitting president of the U.S. has serious credibility issues and offers Twitter-proof of his ignorance on a regular basis.  But you're shocked that a guy with outstanding academic credentials is a professor at Michigan?  And you're ready to  declare him too-stupid-to-be-human based on a naive lay article he wrote for the Guardian?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't know the guy.    From his CV I'd guess that he's the kind of academic player that I loathe. Too many of his papers have colons in their titles for my liking. (Titular Colons: Indicators of Bullshit or Innocuous Dots?)  But your visceral knee-jerk reaction really puzzles me. 

And what leftist idea is this (presumably) leftist professor parroting?   Climate change?   



Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 04, 2017, 11:00:08 AM
The sitting president of the U.S. has serious credibility issues and offers Twitter-proof of his ignorance on a regular basis.  But you're shocked that a guy with outstanding academic credentials is a professor at Michigan?  And you're ready to  declare him too-stupid-to-be-human based on a naive lay article he wrote for the Guardian?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't know the guy.    From his CV I'd guess that he's the kind of academic player that I loathe. Too many of his papers have colons in their titles for my liking. (Titular Colons: Indicators of Bullshit or Innocuous Dots?)  But your visceral knee-jerk reaction really puzzles me. 

And what leftist idea is this (presumably) leftist professor parroting?   Climate change?

The leftist idea is that climate change is very bad thing that can only have bad consequences. This is the only way you end up concluding that something which is obviously good for the insurance industry is actually bad for them. The left is attempting to use climate change advocacy to advocate for large changes in the way corporations operate. Hence this guy's critique of Warren Buffet for not realizing the dangers of climate change.

And yes I'm shocked. The president gets elected by a popularity contest. I have no surprise at getting someone like Trump. The same as I'm not shocked that Venezuela once elected Hugo Chavez. Or Iranians voted for Islamic theocracy.

OTOH, Professors are educated at universities which are highly selective. Its not like everyone gets into Stanford. Or gets a PhD there. Or becomes a professor. The whole process is gruelling and difficult. I know brilliant people who never got professorships. So yes it surprises me that this guy did in the same way I would be surprised if a 50 year old fat slob was running the 100 meter in the Olympics.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 05, 2017, 05:35:51 PM
https://nypost.com/2017/12/05/wisconsin-closer-to-drug-testing-adults-applying-for-food-stamps/

This is what's going on in the universities, the cities, and the country. Somehow there are folks who think it is unconstitutional to require that people receiving handouts not be dopeheads. How anyone is opposed to this is mind boggling. Critics say it's an unreasonable search? I consider my taxes going to druggies an unreasonable seizures of assets. 
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 05, 2017, 06:57:23 PM
I was reading about the professor Eric Clanton who is being charged with assualt because he his several pro-Trump protesters with a bicycle lock. What i find interesting is his biography:

Quote
BIOGRAPHY: Eric received an MA in philosophy from San Francisco State University. There he studied environmental ethics and virtue theory. His studies there concerning philosophies of punishment and prison industrial complex were particularly radicalizing. Since graduating he has been teaching part-time at an energetic and diverse community college (Diablo Valley College). He also volunteers with the Prison University Project at San Quentin teaching writing and critical analysis. Eric is an anarchist trying to escalate his commitment to total revolution through writing, teaching, analysis, and other creative forms of action.

How exactly is this not political advocacy. Its not even masquerading. Its out and out political far left political advocacy. Why should we support universities if they have become radical left-wing indoctrination centers.

Lets see how long it take me to find left-wing political advocacy at U of T...2 minutes
http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/sje/People/Faculty/674/John_Portelli.html

York? 1 minute:
http://people.laps.yorku.ca/people.nsf/facultydirectory?readForm&unit=sosc

Waterloo? 1 minute:
https://uwaterloo.ca/stories/risky-business-investigating-power-and-privilege-classroom

Ok....now lets make this harder because its just too freaking easy. Rotman business school. Surely one cannot find left-wing advocacy at a freaking business school. WRONG:
http://www-2.rotman.utoronto.ca/facbios/file/RiveraTilcsik.pdf
http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/-/media/Files/Programs-and-Areas/GenderEconomy/GenderEconomy-Partnerships.pdf?la=en

Here is my exercise of the day:
Find a left-wing accounting professor who advocates for some form of left-wing accounting at a Canadian University. This should be a hard one.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 05, 2017, 07:54:34 PM
The leftist idea is that climate change is very bad thing that can only have bad consequences. This is the only way you end up concluding that something which is obviously good for the insurance industry is actually bad for them. The left is attempting to use climate change advocacy to advocate for large changes in the way corporations operate. Hence this guy's critique of Warren Buffet for not realizing the dangers of climate change.

And yes I'm shocked. The president gets elected by a popularity contest. I have no surprise at getting someone like Trump. The same as I'm not shocked that Venezuela once elected Hugo Chavez. Or Iranians voted for Islamic theocracy.

OTOH, Professors are educated at universities which are highly selective. Its not like everyone gets into Stanford. Or gets a PhD there. Or becomes a professor. The whole process is gruelling and difficult. I know brilliant people who never got professorships. So yes it surprises me that this guy did in the same way I would be surprised if a 50 year old fat slob was running the 100 meter in the Olympics.

I can't tell whether you're trying to be semantically careful in your description of what is leftist.  It's certainly not a leftist idea that climate change could be a very bad thing, with potentially dire consequences.  By extension, it's a perfectly rational (not leftist) idea to proceed with caution and make changes wherever possible.  Of course the scope of those changes is the sticking point.   I guess it's leftist to say something like "we need to shut down all the factories", in the same sense that it's rightist to say "we need to shut down immigration".  I personally feel those opinions are just ignorant rather than leftist / rightist.

My point about the prof getting hired is that his qualifications are impeccable.  Of course he got hired.  And promoted. And distinguished -- by many institutions, both academic and corporate.  You've decided he's too stupid to breathe based on a short article in the Guardian, ignoring all other evidence to the contrary.  I guess I just find your level of conviction to be very strange. For instance, there's the remote possibility that you're wrong and the guy is actually able to tie his shoes.

This comes back to big issues like climate change, too.  I'm often surprised how much confidence people have in their views, based on what I consider to be limited evidence.  My father-in-law  doesn't even know how thunder works and yet he's perfectly happy to pass judgement on the science of climate change. 

I suppose it's not surprising to find a lot of (over)confidence and strong opinions on COBF, given that the very nature of value investing is to be contrarian.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 05, 2017, 08:55:42 PM
I was reading about the professor Eric Clanton who is being charged with assualt because he his several pro-Trump protesters with a bicycle lock. What i find interesting is his biography:

Quote
BIOGRAPHY: Eric received an MA in philosophy from San Francisco State University. There he studied environmental ethics and virtue theory. His studies there concerning philosophies of punishment and prison industrial complex were particularly radicalizing. Since graduating he has been teaching part-time at an energetic and diverse community college (Diablo Valley College). He also volunteers with the Prison University Project at San Quentin teaching writing and critical analysis. Eric is an anarchist trying to escalate his commitment to total revolution through writing, teaching, analysis, and other creative forms of action.

How exactly is this not political advocacy. Its not even masquerading. Its out and out political far left political advocacy. Why should we support universities if they have become radical left-wing indoctrination centers.

Lets see how long it take me to find left-wing political advocacy at U of T...2 minutes
http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/sje/People/Faculty/674/John_Portelli.html

York? 1 minute:
http://people.laps.yorku.ca/people.nsf/facultydirectory?readForm&unit=sosc

Waterloo? 1 minute:
https://uwaterloo.ca/stories/risky-business-investigating-power-and-privilege-classroom

Ok....now lets make this harder because its just too freaking easy. Rotman business school. Surely one cannot find left-wing advocacy at a freaking business school. WRONG:
http://www-2.rotman.utoronto.ca/facbios/file/RiveraTilcsik.pdf
http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/-/media/Files/Programs-and-Areas/GenderEconomy/GenderEconomy-Partnerships.pdf?la=en

Here is my exercise of the day:
Find a left-wing accounting professor who advocates for some form of left-wing accounting at a Canadian University. This should be a hard one.

You should ignore drama-queens like Eric Clanton and the like. They're looking for attention (read his bio!!) and will continue to say/do outrageous things until someone notices and feeds their ego.  And this dude isn't exactly a prof at Stanford -- he's a part-time instructor at a community college, and very impressed that he's so "radical".   It's very unlikely his radical ideas have left an indelible imprint on many young minds.

There are people like this of all stripes and of all degrees.  I've seen a few messages here about Jordan Peterson, mostly positive because he aligns more with conservative views.  He's all over YouTube, advocating his heart away, but he is lauded for his effort because he's on "your side".  One poster even  suggested that Peterson wasn't looking for a controversy, or some such thing.  Yes he was.  Yes he is.  He *loves* the camera. 

I don't even understand the beef you have with the U of T guy.  As far as academic nuts go, this guy isn't even on the charts (as far as I can tell).  Did you have a specific problem with something he wrote, or do you just hate the idea that people study things like equity and so on in the classroom?  How did you even find him?  Searching for "social justice professor" or something?

I'm not looking for a fight.  I'm posting because I'm in the academic system, and although I see all sorts of wonky stuff and hear plenty of unicorn-inspired ideas, I think you guys are painting a distorted picture of reality on campus. More importantly, I feel there are bigger issues.  Principally, there are simply too many people going to university these days.   The universities, particularly those at the lower end, have responded to the diluted talent pool by getting pretty creative with academic programs.  I do think it's important to have some intelligent people looking into matters such as equity in education, etc.  But trying to grow enrolment in undergraduate programs like "social justice education" strikes me as disingenuous.  And what's happening in STEM subjects is worrying for different reasons.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 06, 2017, 03:43:31 AM
There are people like this of all stripes and of all degrees.  I've seen a few messages here about Jordan Peterson, mostly positive because he aligns more with conservative views.  He's all over YouTube, advocating his heart away, but he is lauded for his effort because he's on "your side".  One poster even  suggested that Peterson wasn't looking for a controversy, or some such thing.  Yes he was.  Yes he is.  He *loves* the camera. 

I don't even understand the beef you have with the U of T guy.  As far as academic nuts go, this guy isn't even on the charts (as far as I can tell).  Did you have a specific problem with something he wrote, or do you just hate the idea that people study things like equity and so on in the classroom?  How did you even find him?  Searching for "social justice professor" or something?

Here is Jordan Peterson's curriculum vitae and classes. Please point any papers or classes you consider blatant political advocacy:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jordan_Peterson2/2
https://jordanbpeterson.com/classes/


Jordan Peterson posts youtube videos on his own time. Its not affiliated with any university. I don't have a problem with people advocating for whatever in their own time and space. It should not be something they are teaching or research papers, conferences etc. That is the difference. And its a huge one. I also don't think it should be that easy to find this. The University should be a place where 90% of people are not political and there are a few people doing political advocacy on their own time...just like any other profession. That is indeed what the university looked like in the 1950's.

Today I was trying to examine the Human Rights Tribunals to see if they are as badly run as those on my side frequently say they are. I examined maybe 20 cases and could not find a single one where I disagreed with a single decision. It was actually really well run. I would challenge you to spend 20 minutes on here:
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onhrt/ and find a single badly decided case. ITS REALLY FREAKIN DIFFICULT.

Contrast that with universities where its very easy to find bad scholarship and outright political advocacy.

Quote
I'm posting because I'm in the academic system, and although I see all sorts of wonky stuff and hear plenty of unicorn-inspired ideas, I think you guys are painting a distorted picture of reality on campus.

You haven't explained why. My point is that a large part of universities function as left-wing indoctrination centers and I've provided extremely easy to obtain evidence that is the case on university websites. And I did it in minutes. It should not be this easy.. The only case where I had to use Google was Rotman...all the rest where based on just clicking a couple of departmental links in departments I knew would be indoctrination centers: Education, Social Justice, Women Studies, Criminology, Sociology, Anthropology, Anti-Colonial studies, Middle East Studies. I mean I didn't even search hard...I almost always find something withiout Google. Rotman was the hard one. Take 5 minutes and try it....go to any departmental website that you would expect would have this shit.

Quote
I don't even understand the beef you have with the U of T guy.  As far as academic nuts go, this guy isn't even on the charts (as far as I can tell).  Did you have a specific problem with something he wrote, or do you just hate the idea that people study things like equity and so on in the classroom?  How did you even find him?  Searching for "social justice professor" or something?

I found him by going straight to OISE (U of T's education department) which I knew would have an extremely left-wing agenda. I didn't use Google. My problem with the guy is that he says stuff like opposing a "neoliberal agenda". Which is political advocacy in an academic journal. I don't see any reason why an academic journal should have an article like the following unless as I have stated repeatedly its political advocacy pretending to be scholarship:
"Critical Democracy and Educational Leadership Issues: Philosophical Responses to the Neoliberal Agenda "

The above should be the title of a talk by Naomi Klein...not a research article written by an education professor.

As I said, in the 1950's you would have a very difficult time finding this sort of garbage. You still had left-wing professors who had left-wing type of ideas like for instance Veblen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen

But I draw a massive distinction between someone like Veblen who in my view as a serious academic trying to understand the nature of consumption and today's scholarship which is just blatant outright left-wing indoctrination without any real value beyond that.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on December 06, 2017, 05:37:58 AM
From a few posts above:
"This is what's going on in the universities, the cities, and the country. Somehow there are folks who think it is unconstitutional to require that people receiving handouts not be dopeheads. How anyone is opposed to this is mind boggling. Critics say it's an unreasonable search? I consider my taxes going to druggies an unreasonable seizures of assets."

Read that comment last night as I was watching a TV report on addiction problems in Manchester county in Kentucky and Beaver county in Pennsylvania and how the "problem" was being addressed. Food stamps candidates. Interesting perspectives: including from the "experts" in universities but also community leaders (and also the addicts themselves and their children too). Solutions don't appear so easy and I understand that the counties are suing pharma companies in order to pay for the medical and rehab care in a way that is not unlike what was done in the cigarette industry and in a context that seems to be promoted by the present administration in order to deal with what is described as a national priority.

What's the point and what's the relevance with this thread?

My understanding is that the SNAP program has a long and tortuous history. There is a lot of data coming out of universities concerning its efficacy and its relevance (or absence thereof). The interesting aspect about the numerous studies is that you can read them and decide to accept or reject the conclusions. It seems that the assumptions underlying some conclusions include that 1-addiction problems are concentrated in SNAP recipients and 2-addiction "causes" dependency. A review of well done university studies don't support these assumptions as stated. Interesting to see that one of the biggest risk factor for drug addiction is to be a white male aged 18 to 24.

What leads to addiction and how to get out of it are not well understood at this point.

There are also many well done university studies showing that drug testing is likely not a cost effective approach whatever political opinion one may have.

As with all phenomena, incentives matter. Perhaps wise to cautiously use a carrot and stick approach.

Opinion: Indiscriminate use of an ideological stick approach may lead to disenchantment that may be eventually funnelled into an undesirable reactionary movement.
Opinion: I continue to have difficulty understanding why there was an opportunity to devise and maintain the SNAP program in the US and wish that it will be phased out eventually. Maybe the solution has something to do with opportunity, mobility and inclusive growth.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cardboard on December 06, 2017, 05:54:44 AM
"You haven't explained why."

Here is my answer: when you get paid by the state, you support an ever larger government to get a larger slice of the pie. And there is also a "system" in place to get you in the gang.

One of my friend is a high school teacher. However, he is quite unique as he does not complain about his salary, size of class, nor advocate for unions, strikes and the like. He does not tell you garbage such as: "This is what you think that our childrens are worth?" If one looks at it with no emotion, Canadian teachers actually earn a very good salary + benefits relative to population and hours worked.

There was a vote recently and he intended to go vote at the union`s meeting. However, unless you attend the 15 to 30 minutes, prior to the real meeting agenda, of what he called: brainwashing, you are not allowed in with the doors locked.

That is democracy in the Leftist world.

Cardboard
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 06, 2017, 06:01:41 AM
"You haven't explained why."

Here is my answer: when you get paid by the state, you support an ever larger government to get a larger slice of the pie. And there is also a "system" in place to get you in the gang.

One of my friend is a high school teacher. However, he is quite unique as he does not complain about his salary, size of class, nor advocate for unions, strikes and the like. He does not tell you garbage such as: "This is what you think that our childrens are worth?" If one looks at it with no emotion, Canadian teachers actually earn a very good salary + benefits relative to population and hours worked.

There was a vote recently and he intented to go vote at the union`s meeting. However, unless you attend the 15 to 30 minutes prior to the real meeting agenda of what he called: brainwashing, you are not allowed in with the doors locked.

That is democracy in the Leftist world.

Cardboard

You have the right to vote the way we want you to.  Just like the leftist idea of the freedom of speech is: You have the right to say only the things we agree with.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 06, 2017, 09:25:49 AM
"You haven't explained why."

Here is my answer: when you get paid by the state, you support an ever larger government to get a larger slice of the pie. And there is also a "system" in place to get you in the gang.

One of my friend is a high school teacher. However, he is quite unique as he does not complain about his salary, size of class, nor advocate for unions, strikes and the like. He does not tell you garbage such as: "This is what you think that our childrens are worth?" If one looks at it with no emotion, Canadian teachers actually earn a very good salary + benefits relative to population and hours worked.

There was a vote recently and he intended to go vote at the union`s meeting. However, unless you attend the 15 to 30 minutes, prior to the real meeting agenda, of what he called: brainwashing, you are not allowed in with the doors locked.

That is democracy in the Leftist world.

Cardboard

Unclear if your response to "You haven't explained why" is in reference to me.  If so, then you're making a biased assumption. And I have no idea what you mean by a "system" that helps people get into the "gang".

In any case, I explicitly said that the larger problem at universities is that we have too many students; i.e. universities are too focused on growth, and society is too focused on sending everyone to university.  This is the opposite of supporting an ever larger institution.  I think the model has to change.  I'm afraid it won't until there's a fiscal emergency.   

All of this hand-wringing about leftists at universities seems to me to be a huge distraction.  I haven't studied the issue. It's just my opinion based on observations from within the system. 

There have always been fads in the softer side of academics  -- philosophy, education, etc. They catch more air today because the system is so much bigger than it was decades ago.  There's just more room for questionable programs of study. (Back to my point about too many students.)  But it's not at all clear to me that the indoctrination you're talking about is really taking place on campus to any substantial degree.  We have some wingnuts around.  Everyone knows them because they make a point of being known.  But students generally recognize them for what they are. An 18 year old who has elected to major in Social Justice will likely experience some echo-chamber effect, where their ideas are cemented rather than challenged. That's not good, admittedly. But students taking such courses as by-products of other pursuits (ie. a mandatory sociology elective) are unlikely to be affected by some ranting left-wing loonie.  By the time the kids arrive on campus they already have pretty well established views on equity, GLBTQ rights, etc.   

Compare this to a brilliant egoist like Jordan Peterson.   I happen to agree with a lot of his views, and so I don't think he's doing people harm.  But the fact that students describe his courses as "life changing" speaks to the power he wields in their social development.   I've never heard anybody say such things about our local wingnuts.  Incidentally, I'm not in the humanities, but I think Peterson makes some interesting points about how postmodernism has undermined the whole area.

I agree with some other posters here who argue that university administrations (and some faculty) are not doing enough to stand up for free expression.  It seems that you just need a few students to protest something and the admin will fold, afraid of bad press coverage.  And they all-too-happily add extra layers of inefficiency in a misguided effort to avoid conflict or appease special interests; e.g. recognizing the First Nations at the beginning of every major meeting,.

...

Canadian teacher salaries are generally very good, and in some cases (Ontario) they are exceptionally good, particularly when pension is taken into consideration.  But most teachers I know feel they're fairly paid. And I've never heard one equate their salary with children's well-being.  Unfortunately, this has become typical union talk.  In a recent contract dispute, every teacher I spoke with was embarrassed by their union's behaviour.  So your friend is far from unique.   (And if he was barred illegally from voting at a union meeting then he should do something about it.  That's a huge deal.)

"That's democracy in a leftist world,"  is a punchy tagline.  A while ago, under Harper's government, some colleagues were barred from publishing or discussing scientific findings that were contrary to the conservative agenda.  Is it fair to say,"That's science in a rightist world"?   Or is it more appropriate to look at it as general government overreach.  This leftist / rightist obsession is ridiculous and divisive.




Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cardboard on December 06, 2017, 12:44:44 PM
"And if he was barred illegally from voting at a union meeting then he should do something about it.  That's a huge deal."

What do you consider illegal? Having to listen to 15-30 minutes of non-related propaganda before a vote?

It is just the way it is. And if you dare denounce or protest, you end up just like the folks from the Right who manifest on the street and get rocks thrown at you.

My friend wants to live (I guess), so he simply avoided the meeting + vote altogether. Unless a large group of people are willing to oppose, the union will impose its laws. And there are enough brainwashed individuals who will injure others on demand.

"And I've never heard one equate their salary with children's well-being."

Regarding this, I have heard that from a female teacher this week-end who wanted me to keep an eye on her expensive (to use her words) Michael Koors bag. What an idiot!

Pushing her thinking to the extreme, although, it is not far from what she had in mind, a teacher should receive an infinite salary since they are taking care of the education of our children. Entitlement is rampant in our world.

Cardboard


 
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 06, 2017, 01:02:08 PM
What do you consider illegal? Having to listen to 15-30 minutes of non-related propaganda before a vote?

Illegal as in against the rules set out by the union and in accordance with provincial labour law.  If they have rules in place that force a member to be present for the discussion period of any motion upon which he/she is going to vote, then your friend should've been there if he wanted to vote.  But I've never heard of such rules, so I'm wondering if they were just making it up as they go.  Things like that can be challenged. It would be supremely stupid for a well organized union to do such a thing. They usually live by (and for) "the rules".

I'm in a union.  I don't like it in many ways, but I have no doubt my working conditions are better for it. 

I was in private industry for a while, in a good position (computer stuff -- professional, well paid, etc).  All was fine until we got bought out.  Everyone got a taste of some real money and the entitlement went off the charts.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 06, 2017, 01:02:15 PM
You don't make many friends saying this, but it is true.  If you take a teachers yearly salary and divide it by the actual hours worked in a year and do the same with other professional jobs (computer programer, engineer, etc) you will find that teachers already make far too much.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 06, 2017, 01:17:48 PM
You don't make many friends saying this, but it is true.  If you take a teachers yearly salary and divide it by the actual hours worked in a year and do the same with other professional jobs (computer programer, engineer, etc) you will find that teachers already make far too much.

I don't now if I'd say all of them make too much, but this is pretty true.
Many of the newer teachers, as in under 10 years employment, often gripe about making very little money. Then you do as you stated above, and see that getting paid 50k a year at 31 years old to work 5 days a week from 7:30-3, 8.5 months a year, aint all that bad. Not great money, but not bad. Then factor in the job security and pensions, and as a career path, its pretty cozy.

Definitely in the "they make too much camp" are the lifers. I remember the head football coach at my HS had been there 30+ years and was pulling in $180k a year to coach football(August thru December) and teach gym class two days a week. Or the Spanish teacher who did in fact teach 4 days a week, but had been there 25 years and was making 240k a year.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Pauly on December 06, 2017, 02:15:29 PM
Definitely in the "they make too much camp" are the lifers. I remember the head football coach at my HS had been there 30+ years and was pulling in $180k a year to coach football(August thru December) and teach gym class two days a week. Or the Spanish teacher who did in fact teach 4 days a week, but had been there 25 years and was making 240k a year.

Wait, what kind of high school did you go to? I've never heard of any district paying a teacher anywhere close to 240K a year. 25 years experience is pretty common and districts would be going bankrupt paying that kind of salary. Sounds like BS to me, which would be par for the course for a lot of the posts in this sub.

To add my $0.02, good teachers tend to be underpaid, and lousy teachers tend to be overpaid. A good teacher is working far more than the typical 8:30-3:00 school hours, and a lousy teacher is barely working even those hours.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 06, 2017, 02:36:53 PM
FWIW my father was a teacher for 20+ years (retired last year) and I don't think he cleared 120K in salary. This was in NYC for context.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 06, 2017, 03:58:22 PM
Definitely in the "they make too much camp" are the lifers. I remember the head football coach at my HS had been there 30+ years and was pulling in $180k a year to coach football(August thru December) and teach gym class two days a week. Or the Spanish teacher who did in fact teach 4 days a week, but had been there 25 years and was making 240k a year.

Wait, what kind of high school did you go to? I've never heard of any district paying a teacher anywhere close to 240K a year. 25 years experience is pretty common and districts would be going bankrupt paying that kind of salary. Sounds like BS to me, which would be par for the course for a lot of the posts in this sub.

To add my $0.02, good teachers tend to be underpaid, and lousy teachers tend to be overpaid. A good teacher is working far more than the typical 8:30-3:00 school hours, and a lousy teacher is barely working even those hours.

Glen Rock High School in NJ. Where art and music teachers take in 100k a year.

The referenced Spanish teacher admittedly was an exceptional situation. Worked at the middle/high school from 9-2, and taught night classes at the community college and another local college. He was pushing 300k in total comp by the time he retired.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rkbabang on December 06, 2017, 05:04:18 PM
Definitely in the "they make too much camp" are the lifers. I remember the head football coach at my HS had been there 30+ years and was pulling in $180k a year to coach football(August thru December) and teach gym class two days a week. Or the Spanish teacher who did in fact teach 4 days a week, but had been there 25 years and was making 240k a year.

Wait, what kind of high school did you go to? I've never heard of any district paying a teacher anywhere close to 240K a year. 25 years experience is pretty common and districts would be going bankrupt paying that kind of salary. Sounds like BS to me, which would be par for the course for a lot of the posts in this sub.

To add my $0.02, good teachers tend to be underpaid, and lousy teachers tend to be overpaid. A good teacher is working far more than the typical 8:30-3:00 school hours, and a lousy teacher is barely working even those hours.

Yes, my post may have been an overstatement, I’ve had some excellent teachers and so have my kids, but the best teachers weren’t always the highest paid. For instance when I lived in Massachusetts my kids had some horrible teachers who were making a lot more than the excellent teachers they have had here in NH.  Even the ones teaching here for decades don’t make as much as the horrible teachers in MA did. Money isn’t what separates the good from the bad. Like most union gigs the good are underpaid the bad are overpaid and almost no one makes what they deserve.

While my previous statement may have been too much of a generalization, it is hard to say that in general teachers don’t make enough, because on average they are compensated very well.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: doc75 on December 06, 2017, 05:54:28 PM
While my previous statement may have been too much of a generalization, it is hard to say that in general teachers don’t make enough, because on average they are compensated very well.

This is certainly true in Canada.  But I thought I had read in the not-distant past about teachers in some US districts getting paid quite poorly (30k or whatever).  I was always under the impression they made much more in Canada.  It looks like I'm misinformed.

I'd be curious to see the results of a survey that asks the general public what they think a teacher should make.  I wonder if the stats would show any interesting consistencies, such as clumping around some fraction of the respondee's  income.  I'm certain you'd see plenty of very low-ball answers -- $25k or whatever.   

Unless you own and operate a business, it's pretty hard to say what you "should" be getting paid.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Cigarbutt on December 06, 2017, 06:37:50 PM
Few links for the typical teacher:
http://www.topeducationdegrees.org/faq/how-much-money-does-an-average-teacher-make-a-year/
https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary
https://www1.salary.com/Teacher-Salary.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/08/07/low-teacher-pay-and-high-teacher-pay-are-both-myths/#2c4b20ec31af

My understanding is that higher education teachers/professors make more, and sometimes much more and the variance is higher. Data is easily available.

Reported numbers understate fringe benefits which are usually significant and very significant pension accruals which are typically very generous. I have heard and read about incredible pensions earned by retirees (especially in the US for some reason). Hard to see how "promised" pensions will be maintained.

In terms of what a person "deserves", I submit that teachers should get some kind of premium but I find that present compensation schemes are more than sufficient. In a more general sense, some studies have shown that people have a tendency to think that others are paid too much if they make more than them. But that's another story.

Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 06, 2017, 11:52:44 PM
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#25-0000

Looks like the mean primary school teachers make around $70k, post-secondary about 90-100.

I'd say that seems fair.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: DTEJD1997 on December 06, 2017, 11:56:42 PM
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#25-0000

Looks like the mean primary school teachers make around $70k, post-secondary about 90-100.

I'd say that seems fair.

I guess it depends on which skool district you are in....REMEMBER most teachers get their summers off...Spring break, Christmas break, various other holidays....they also tend to have "Cadillac" health care, pensions, and other benefits.

Some of the wealthiest people I know are/were "edukators"....
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 07, 2017, 12:06:45 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: DTEJD1997 on December 07, 2017, 12:25:39 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

I could tell some crazy stories about "edukators"...some of them make a TREMENDOUS amount of money, they know how to work the system, and they know how to get the money.

I also know an educator who does reasonably good work, but gets paid at a level just above poverty.  He is an adjunct professor.  Those guys are taken advantage of by the admins and tenured profs.  That is yet another damning indictment of the education system in America.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: LC on December 07, 2017, 02:35:06 AM
And that doesn't happen in private firms? I could tell stories of the same type about managing directors. I don't think it's an issue isolated to academics.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 07, 2017, 08:24:05 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

Not really sure about that. Teachers can become principals and consultants. You do get more highly paid. Your career goals are less capped than you think. My cousin followed that path...I would guess she makes at least 160k per year. Now her brother is senior partner in Deloitte and makes >600k per year with less experience but not all people in Deloitte rise to senior partner.

I think during the year most teachers are more stressed out than people in other jobs and honestly students are assholes and there is no respect for a teachers authoritah. Teaching young people can be very easy and pleasurable if the teacher has the power to control the class as they do in China. Teachers are also not really that respected.

So America has a strange system. You pay your teachers well but you don't even get the benefit of having high quality teachers because you have little respect for them and you give them little power. So you attract the worst.

THe problem is that we think of education as a consumption good where we are getting a service and are customers. So when students fail, parents blame teachers. But in the traditional system of education, the onus is on the student not the teacher which in my view makes a great deal more sense. Johnny is not learning, not because his teacher failed him but because Johnny's a lazy moron. Admittedly the traditional system can go too far in letting the teachers off the hook but the current system goes way way too far in letting students off the hook and making them feel good.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 07, 2017, 08:59:13 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

Not really sure about that. Teachers can become principals and consultants. You do get more highly paid. Your career goals are less capped than you think. My cousin followed that path...I would guess she makes at least 160k per year. Now her brother is senior partner in Deloitte and makes >600k per year with less experience but not all people in Deloitte rise to senior partner.

I think during the year most teachers are more stressed out than people in other jobs and honestly students are assholes and there is no respect for a teachers authoritah. Teaching young people can be very easy and pleasurable if the teacher has the power to control the class as they do in China. Teachers are also not really that respected.

So America has a strange system. You pay your teachers well but you don't even get the benefit of having high quality teachers because you have little respect for them and you give them little power. So you attract the worst.

THe problem is that we think of education as a consumption good where we are getting a service and are customers. So when students fail, parents blame teachers. But in the traditional system of education, the onus is on the student not the teacher which in my view makes a great deal more sense. Johnny is not learning, not because his teacher failed him but because Johnny's a lazy moron. Admittedly the traditional system can go too far in letting the teachers off the hook but the current system goes way way too far in letting students off the hook and making them feel good.

You also have an environment where students can assault teachers and principals simply because the teachers want to enforce rules or demands respect and lil' young money gangstas thinks having their Beats headphones on blast or social media feed active 24/7 is a god given right...

https://nypost.com/2016/10/24/principal-brutally-beaten-after-telling-teen-to-remove-headphones/
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: rukawa on December 08, 2017, 08:53:31 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

Not really sure about that. Teachers can become principals and consultants. You do get more highly paid. Your career goals are less capped than you think. My cousin followed that path...I would guess she makes at least 160k per year. Now her brother is senior partner in Deloitte and makes >600k per year with less experience but not all people in Deloitte rise to senior partner.

I think during the year most teachers are more stressed out than people in other jobs and honestly students are assholes and there is no respect for a teachers authoritah. Teaching young people can be very easy and pleasurable if the teacher has the power to control the class as they do in China. Teachers are also not really that respected.

So America has a strange system. You pay your teachers well but you don't even get the benefit of having high quality teachers because you have little respect for them and you give them little power. So you attract the worst.

THe problem is that we think of education as a consumption good where we are getting a service and are customers. So when students fail, parents blame teachers. But in the traditional system of education, the onus is on the student not the teacher which in my view makes a great deal more sense. Johnny is not learning, not because his teacher failed him but because Johnny's a lazy moron. Admittedly the traditional system can go too far in letting the teachers off the hook but the current system goes way way too far in letting students off the hook and making them feel good.

You also have an environment where students can assault teachers and principals simply because the teachers want to enforce rules or demands respect and lil' young money gangstas thinks having their Beats headphones on blast or social media feed active 24/7 is a god given right...

https://nypost.com/2016/10/24/principal-brutally-beaten-after-telling-teen-to-remove-headphones/

You left out the follow up
https://nypost.com/2017/09/22/teen-who-punched-principal-in-face-gets-sweet-deal-from-judge/

The judge was very proud of the teen who was completely unapologetic. The teen served zero jail time.

Its no wonder you get bad teachers when students can beat them senseless with impunity.
Title: Re: What the heck is going on at universities??
Post by: Gregmal on December 08, 2017, 10:10:32 AM
Sure, and there are tons of cons as well. They have to deal with children/teenagers all day. Their career goals are pretty much capped. I'm sure we've both heard the stories of young teachers being let go right before tenure eligibility.

Not really sure about that. Teachers can become principals and consultants. You do get more highly paid. Your career goals are less capped than you think. My cousin followed that path...I would guess she makes at least 160k per year. Now her brother is senior partner in Deloitte and makes >600k per year with less experience but not all people in Deloitte rise to senior partner.

I think during the year most teachers are more stressed out than people in other jobs and honestly students are assholes and there is no respect for a teachers authoritah. Teaching young people can be very easy and pleasurable if the teacher has the power to control the class as they do in China. Teachers are also not really that respected.

So America has a strange system. You pay your teachers well but you don't even get the benefit of having high quality teachers because you have little respect for them and you give them little power. So you attract the worst.

THe problem is that we think of education as a consumption good where we are getting a service and are customers. So when students fail, parents blame teachers. But in the traditional system of education, the onus is on the student not the teacher which in my view makes a great deal more sense. Johnny is not learning, not because his teacher failed him but because Johnny's a lazy moron. Admittedly the traditional system can go too far in letting the teachers off the hook but the current system goes way way too far in letting students off the hook and making them feel good.

You also have an environment where students can assault teachers and principals simply because the teachers want to enforce rules or demands respect and lil' young money gangstas thinks having their Beats headphones on blast or social media feed active 24/7 is a god given right...

https://nypost.com/2016/10/24/principal-brutally-beaten-after-telling-teen-to-remove-headphones/

You left out the follow up
https://nypost.com/2017/09/22/teen-who-punched-principal-in-face-gets-sweet-deal-from-judge/

The judge was very proud of the teen who was completely unapologetic. The teen served zero jail time.

Its no wonder you get bad teachers when students can beat them senseless with impunity.

Shucks, I must have missed it. I was out protesting the treatment of white school officials/authority figures by minorities.