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Politics / Re: Russia Investigation.
« Last post by LC on July 18, 2018, 10:51:01 PM »
As a country, you find out another country is waging cyber warfare during elections.

First thing you do is send a warning shot and gauge their response. If they back off, fine. If they don't, then you need to escalate your response.

This is how you deal with any bully. Someone fvcks with you, you tell em to back off. If they don't, then you go after them.

Obama told them to back off. Trump did not back that up.
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On this note, how many here believe Paulson's machiavelic true plan was temporary support (Willet's reference to optimistic start of the Conservatorship) to later dissolving the entities (carried on by Geithner via the nws strategy, Willet's reference to the darker turn of events)?

Was Paulson referring exactly to this situation in today's bloomberg article?

A very high chance if you ask me. I have read On the Brink. Tim Howard is exactly right: the companies were not bailed out, they were seized and decapitalized for ideological and policy reasons.

Emily, what say you?
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Politics / Re: Russia Investigation.
« Last post by Schwab711 on July 18, 2018, 09:45:57 PM »
The intervention in libya happened without congress approval and under obama. You have use of military force against a sovereign nation. So surely he could have put on some sanctions or launched some type of cyber attack.

That republicans sat on it too is understandable. The dems were working them pretty hard as was the press.
Going forward this is a lesson for all this "resisting" against trump that is going on.

I am still not sure there was any hacking and if there was i dont think thats what cost the election. My perception is it was the smug derisive dem attitude towards blue collar and trump flipping convention on trade that pushed him over.


A few weeks/months ago, the message was that no one was concerned about Trump/Russia or hacking before the election because they expected Hillary to win. Now the message is Obama didn't act when he could.

I'm not trying to point fingers. The questions weren't rhetorical. What do you think Obama could or should have done? What do you think would have happened if the "deep state" and/or Obama had done this act or acted in general in September 2016, with 2 months left before the election?

Libya is a separate fight and not an election that directly affects the opposite party. How would it look if Obama started a physical war with Russia, 2 months before an election, in a lame duck year. He wasn't exactly popular with right-leaning folks then. Not to mention Trump's constant (and baseless - as shown in court when that commission was challenged) allegations that the election was "rigged" (or would be rigged).

I don't really know what you mean by a lesson for all this "resisting".

I'm guessing your view is not uncommon at all. There was obviously hacking. Did those 12 do it? I don't know but it certainly looks like it. The indictment of the 12 GRU hackers specifically lists names, ranks, searches, dates, ect. Those accusations will be tied with other individuals in future indictments. There is zero doubt of that.

I really hope you read all the indictments and other important court docs, keep an open mind going forward, and review the old comments on this board to get an idea of the lies, goalpost shifting, ect.

Either way, I've appreciated being able to have a normal conversation about all this. It's a really nice change of pace.
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Politics / Re: Russia Investigation.
« Last post by no_free_lunch on July 18, 2018, 09:12:48 PM »
The intervention in libya happened without congress approval and under obama. You have use of military force against a sovereign nation. So surely he could have put on some sanctions or launched some type of cyber attack.

That republicans sat on it too is understandable. The dems were working them pretty hard as was the press.
Going forward this is a lesson for all this "resisting" against trump that is going on.

I am still not sure there was any hacking and if there was i dont think thats what cost the election. My perception is it was the smug derisive dem attitude towards blue collar and trump flipping convention on trade that pushed him over.
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Politics / Re: Russia Investigation.
« Last post by Schwab711 on July 18, 2018, 08:35:34 PM »
Schwab

I did read it.  It was very clear that obama had auth to act. Schiff says so quite clearly.  Yes thwre are statements in the article that republicans were also against action but that isnt relevant to the argument. Left is calling trump a traitor but the truth is obama could have acted back in aug or sept but did not. Cyber attacks, sanctions, deployment of forces near russia.  All he did was send a warning.

What could Obama do specifically with a hostile Congress? McConnell also had this info, why didn't he offer to help? Why did Trump deny the facts despite being briefed during the election?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/18/world/europe/trump-intelligence-russian-election-meddling-.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

What do you think Trump would have said in late-August in to September 2016?

What would you have said? People on this board didn't believe the hack occurred in recent weeks.

How do you think this all would have played out in 2016, nearly 2 years before the government was prepared to present evidence to a grand jury?

Finally, it is not at all true that Obama's only act was a "warning". We closed the 2 compounds. We closed the San Francisco compound. He expelled a large number of "diplomats" (code for protected spies). That's about all Obama could do without Congressional support and the ridiculous rhetoric from Trump. When I was yelling about the rhetoric being too damn high in 2015/2016, this was one of the consequences. Government was paralyzed at the exact moment it needed to react.

The goalposts have been constantly moved. The "Left's" story about Trump/Russia is unchanged.

Why are normal folks fighting about this instead of all of us angry at Trump?
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Politics / Re: Russia Investigation.
« Last post by no_free_lunch on July 18, 2018, 07:48:06 PM »
Schwab

I did read it.  It was very clear that obama had auth to act. Schiff says so quite clearly.  Yes thwre are statements in the article that republicans were also against action but that isnt relevant to the argument. Left is calling trump a traitor but the truth is obama could have acted back in aug or sept but did not. Cyber attacks, sanctions, deployment of forces near russia.  All he did was send a warning.
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Politics / Re: Russia Investigation.
« Last post by Cigarbutt on July 18, 2018, 07:40:07 PM »
...
No Free Lunch:  What in the article led you to your statement?
...
Electoral "interventions" by foreign powers are common.
http://gleasonreport.com/documents/sqv016.pdf
The interesting question is how to deal with them.
Please elaborate.
Is this some kind or reverse Manifest Destiny?
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Politics / Re: Russia Investigation.
« Last post by doc75 on July 18, 2018, 07:27:10 PM »
Obama was informed in august 2016. Warned putin in sept. Otherwise did nothing.  Probably because his advisors informed him usa interferes w elections all over the world. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.f1e9718df06c

Did you read the article? It literally said they wanted to react but Republican leadership threatened to claim it was politically motivated. If you recall the political fever at the time, Trump was saying the election was rigged and everyone was at each other's throat.

This article makes the case for why Republican behavior is so weird. They knew it was happening and blocked leadership from reacting...

Also, Butina was just charged with espionage, which connects the NRA to the GOP, which might be playing a factor in this all.

Good article.  But yeah I also thought  "did he read much of this?"

No Free Lunch:  What in the article led you to your statement?

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On this note, how many here believe Paulson's machiavelic true plan was temporary support (Willet's reference to optimistic start of the Conservatorship) to later dissolving the entities (carried on by Geithner via the nws strategy, Willet's reference to the darker turn of events)?

Was Paulson referring exactly to this situation in today's bloomberg article?

A very high chance if you ask me. I have read On the Brink. Tim Howard is exactly right: the companies were not bailed out, they were seized and decapitalized for ideological and policy reasons.
10
Politics / Re: Russia Investigation.
« Last post by Schwab711 on July 18, 2018, 07:16:23 PM »
Obama was informed in august 2016. Warned putin in sept. Otherwise did nothing.  Probably because his advisors informed him usa interferes w elections all over the world. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.f1e9718df06c

Did you read the article? It literally said they wanted to react but Republican leadership threatened to claim it was politically motivated. If you recall the political fever at the time, Trump was saying the election was rigged and everyone was at each other's throat.

This article makes the case for why Republican behavior is so weird. They knew it was happening and blocked leadership from reacting...

Also, Butina was just charged with espionage, which connects the NRA to the GOP, which might be playing a factor in this all.
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