Author Topic: Fairfax 2020  (Read 206932 times)

StubbleJumper

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #470 on: July 16, 2020, 09:48:36 AM »
I read the competing bid by Modern Media Holdings Inc's to be more likely to break up the company since the future asset contigency sales is in their deal.  I read the Nordstar bid  as committing to keep the paper intact.

Isn't the seller within the right to choose which company to sell to based on the way the new buyer will run the business?  In this case keeping the business operating and not stripping it was part of the reason why Nordstar was chosen.

I might be misunderstanding but I dont see the egregious action by the owners for their baby to be in the hands of like minded buyers.


Yes, the seller of an asset can sell to whomever he wants.  But, in this case, we have a number of management teams involved who are supposed to be acting as fiduciaries for the actual owners (shareholders) of their firm. 

The first such management team is Torstar management who should be recommending that its shareholders adopt the objectively most favourable offer, and then holding a shareholder vote to approve or deny the takeover.  During that vote, the *actual owners* of TS can make their individual decision of whether they view the offer as desirable.  The families can vote against the best financial offer if they want, but to fulfill its fiduciary responsibility, TS should be recommending the better offer and should organize a vote.

The second such management team is FFH management, who should be pursuing the best financial offer on behalf of its shareholders (including those of us in this forum).  If the FFH management team is knowingly accepting an inferior financial offer for those TS shares which *we* own, they have some explaining to do.  If the decision was actually taken or if it appears to have been taken simply to help their buddy, Paul Rivett, then they really have some explaining to do.  I have nothing against Paul Rivett, but I do not at all want any portion of my financial interest in FFH to be expropriated just because he's a nice guy.

In the case of FFH, the company has had recurring governance failures.  This looks like it might just be one more abuse of minority (majority!) shareholders.


SJ


Pedro

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #471 on: July 16, 2020, 10:01:26 AM »
Gotcha. Thanks for explaining clearly - i can see the oncern here, specially if Nordstar was looking at divesting assests too. 

Phoenix01

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #472 on: July 16, 2020, 10:04:43 AM »
Prem is all about establishing and growing relationships.   This sometimes goes against immediate optimization of every deal.

This is pocket change for Fairfax and the benefit from supporting allies is much greater for their reputation.

It is a matter of judgment.   It is not a simple screw everyone and take as much profit as you can.

bearprowler6

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #473 on: July 16, 2020, 10:11:49 AM »
Prem is all about establishing and growing relationships.   This sometimes goes against immediate optimization of every deal.

This is pocket change for Fairfax and the benefit from supporting allies is much greater for their reputation.

It is a matter of judgment.   It is not a simple screw everyone and take as much profit as you can.

Stop defending him....this one is not even close....

The revised Rivett/Bitove bid works out for something like $60 million in total to acquire a company that has $70 million CASH on its books and NO DEBT and no unfunded pension liability plus it has various minority investments that conservatively will raise a further $100 million when they are sold.

bizaro86

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #474 on: July 16, 2020, 11:14:06 AM »
Prem is all about establishing and growing relationships.   This sometimes goes against immediate optimization of every deal.

This is pocket change for Fairfax and the benefit from supporting allies is much greater for their reputation.

It is a matter of judgment.   It is not a simple screw everyone and take as much profit as you can.

Do you think continually acting against the best interests of their own investors (and those of their subs) will enhance their reputation?

Parsad

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #475 on: July 16, 2020, 12:22:37 PM »
Prem is all about establishing and growing relationships.   This sometimes goes against immediate optimization of every deal.

This is pocket change for Fairfax and the benefit from supporting allies is much greater for their reputation.

It is a matter of judgment.   It is not a simple screw everyone and take as much profit as you can.

Stop defending him....this one is not even close....

The revised Rivett/Bitove bid works out for something like $60 million in total to acquire a company that has $70 million CASH on its books and NO DEBT and no unfunded pension liability plus it has various minority investments that conservatively will raise a further $100 million when they are sold.

You're asking some shareholders to stop defending him, but have you or anyone asked Prem why he is supporting the Bitove/Rivett deal?  You guys always talk about self-dealing at Fairfax...show me some frickin' examples.  The only things you guys point to is Resolute and now this.  Resolute was to the benefit of Fairfax shareholders.

If the Bitove/Rivett deal wins, do you think there might be some long-term opportunity for Fairfax?  And why are you pissed off at the investor and not Torstar management...they are the ones who should be explaining why they are supporting a specific deal to all shareholders.  Cheers!
No man is a failure who has friends!

bearprowler6

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #476 on: July 16, 2020, 12:41:09 PM »
Prem is all about establishing and growing relationships.   This sometimes goes against immediate optimization of every deal.

This is pocket change for Fairfax and the benefit from supporting allies is much greater for their reputation.

It is a matter of judgment.   It is not a simple screw everyone and take as much profit as you can.

Stop defending him....this one is not even close....

The revised Rivett/Bitove bid works out for something like $60 million in total to acquire a company that has $70 million CASH on its books and NO DEBT and no unfunded pension liability plus it has various minority investments that conservatively will raise a further $100 million when they are sold.

You're asking some shareholders to stop defending him, but have you or anyone asked Prem why he is supporting the Bitove/Rivett deal?  You guys always talk about self-dealing at Fairfax...show me some frickin' examples.  The only things you guys point to is Resolute and now this.  Resolute was to the benefit of Fairfax shareholders.

If the Bitove/Rivett deal wins, do you think there might be some long-term opportunity for Fairfax?  And why are you pissed off at the investor and not Torstar management...they are the ones who should be explaining why they are supporting a specific deal to all shareholders.  Cheers!

Here we go again....the old "long term"response! I have written on here before....without a specific timeline the phrase long term is meaningless!

As far as I can see Fairfax has been silent on its motives for accepting a lower price for its Torstar shares (than offered by the competing group)...so in the absence of a description of any future beenfit that may accrue to Fairfax shareholders I assume none exists.

furthermore, Stubble Jumper outlined it very well when he raised concerns with the actions of both Torstar's board/management and Fairfax!

Have to leave the board for a few minutes since Greg Sorbora (part of the group completing against Bitove/Rivett) is about to be interviewed on BNNBloomberg.




bizaro86

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #477 on: July 16, 2020, 04:49:50 PM »
Prem is all about establishing and growing relationships.   This sometimes goes against immediate optimization of every deal.

This is pocket change for Fairfax and the benefit from supporting allies is much greater for their reputation.

It is a matter of judgment.   It is not a simple screw everyone and take as much profit as you can.

Stop defending him....this one is not even close....

The revised Rivett/Bitove bid works out for something like $60 million in total to acquire a company that has $70 million CASH on its books and NO DEBT and no unfunded pension liability plus it has various minority investments that conservatively will raise a further $100 million when they are sold.

You're asking some shareholders to stop defending him, but have you or anyone asked Prem why he is supporting the Bitove/Rivett deal?  You guys always talk about self-dealing at Fairfax...show me some frickin' examples.  The only things you guys point to is Resolute and now this.  Resolute was to the benefit of Fairfax shareholders.

If the Bitove/Rivett deal wins, do you think there might be some long-term opportunity for Fairfax?  And why are you pissed off at the investor and not Torstar management...they are the ones who should be explaining why they are supporting a specific deal to all shareholders.  Cheers!

Do we get to count the time where they sold a piece of FIH's best asset in a way that guarantees OMERS (the buyer) a profit and allowed them to book huge management fees? Seems like the only loser there is FIH shareholders.

How about the time FAH shareholders sold one of their best assets to the mothership for way lower than a recent outside bid as part of a low-disclosure  deal?

Just two more examples from this year, to go along with Resolute, Torstar and the multi-voting shares.

StubbleJumper

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #478 on: July 16, 2020, 08:40:24 PM »
Prem is all about establishing and growing relationships.   This sometimes goes against immediate optimization of every deal.

This is pocket change for Fairfax and the benefit from supporting allies is much greater for their reputation.

It is a matter of judgment.   It is not a simple screw everyone and take as much profit as you can.

Stop defending him....this one is not even close....

The revised Rivett/Bitove bid works out for something like $60 million in total to acquire a company that has $70 million CASH on its books and NO DEBT and no unfunded pension liability plus it has various minority investments that conservatively will raise a further $100 million when they are sold.

You're asking some shareholders to stop defending him, but have you or anyone asked Prem why he is supporting the Bitove/Rivett deal?  You guys always talk about self-dealing at Fairfax...show me some frickin' examples.  The only things you guys point to is Resolute and now this.  Resolute was to the benefit of Fairfax shareholders.

If the Bitove/Rivett deal wins, do you think there might be some long-term opportunity for Fairfax?  And why are you pissed off at the investor and not Torstar management...they are the ones who should be explaining why they are supporting a specific deal to all shareholders.  Cheers!

Do we get to count the time where they sold a piece of FIH's best asset in a way that guarantees OMERS (the buyer) a profit and allowed them to book huge management fees? Seems like the only loser there is FIH shareholders.

How about the time FAH shareholders sold one of their best assets to the mothership for way lower than a recent outside bid as part of a low-disclosure  deal?

Just two more examples from this year, to go along with Resolute, Torstar and the multi-voting shares.



Actually, the one that I liked best was when FFH proposed to buy out the minority shareholders of ORH for US$60/share back in September 2009.  Presumably FFH made that offer with the intimate knowledge of ORH's financial situation. When ORH eventually filed it's 10Q for September 2009, you know what it's book value was?  Yep, it BV at the end of Q3 2009 was a shade under $62/share.  That's right, FFH proposed to buy out its partners for less than book.  Eventually they bumped up their offer to $65/share, which was a princely multiple of 1.05x book, for a highly profitable reinsurer that had grown its book value by 25% during the year. 

Fair and friendly?  Not so much.


SJ

Phoenix01

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Re: Fairfax 2020
« Reply #479 on: July 17, 2020, 04:56:16 AM »
Yet the deals keep headed towards Fairfax....