Author Topic: Bill Gross Keynote at DLD Munich 2019 on cheap gravity energy storage  (Read 3140 times)

Cardboard

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Re: Bill Gross Keynote at DLD Munich 2019 on cheap gravity energy storage
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2019, 02:18:47 PM »
A 10% efficient storage system will mean that 90% of what was produced has been lost. It means that you will need 9 times more renewable generating capacity to end up with the same output as you would with the 90% efficient system. That is a lot of additional c/kWh!!!

I get the point but, your example is out of whack.


Spekulatius

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Re: Bill Gross Keynote at DLD Munich 2019 on cheap gravity energy storage
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2019, 02:58:59 PM »
Indeed, in the end all that matters is the price. The efficiency is one of the factors that goes into the costs, but a 10% efficient system that could capture energy at 2c/kwh round-trip is better than a 90% efficient system that captures it at 3c/kwh round-trip.
A 10% efficient system that captures energy at 2c/kwh needs an input of energy with a <0.2c/kWh cost to work at the given value.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 04:01:42 AM by Spekulatius »
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SharperDingaan

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Re: Bill Gross Keynote at DLD Munich 2019 on cheap gravity energy storage
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2020, 08:08:07 AM »
There are a number of far cheaper solutions, that are already available. https://www.hydrostor.ca/toronto-a-caes-facility/

Hydrostor essentially pumps air into a bladder 180ft below the surface of Lake Ontario. Ancillary technical benefits are off-the-shelf technology, heating and cooling from air expansion and cooling, and storage primarily as a liquid versus a gas. Basically 4 businesses, 1) spread on the KwH, 2) centralized industrial HVAC (data centers and office towers), 3) centralized warehouse refrigeration, and 4) design/build/consulting.

Hydrostor is typical of today's solutions; the only way you get their stock is either via a P3 partnership, or working for them.
Point being that if your approach is to only buy/sell the shares of a publicly listed company, you are fishing in the wrong pool.
Annual dividend ROE's are typically in the 15-26% range.

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muscleman

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Re: Bill Gross Keynote at DLD Munich 2019 on cheap gravity energy storage
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2020, 10:17:30 AM »
I don't understand how this new gravity energy storage plan can be so much cheaper than pumping water to the top of the mountain as a gravity storage? It seems far more reliable to use water than these concrete blocks. Imagine what happens in a windy day.
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rb

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Re: Bill Gross Keynote at DLD Munich 2019 on cheap gravity energy storage
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2020, 10:24:15 AM »
It's a beautiful idea in how simple it is.

My guess is that the key to the efficiency of the system is that the blocks have to be as heavy as possible in order to minimize the number of cycles and thus friction loss. That means that you would need some really kick ass cranes.

I also don't really see what you can patent in all of this. You'd obviously have to use high end cranes made by some of the most serious manufacturers and they're obviously not gonna let you patent their cranes. Maybe they can patent the blocks since they might be unusual due to their weight. But again unless it's something really special I find it hard that you can patent and enforce IP right to a concrete block.

Also this is really just a stack of blocks so I'm wondering how would the whole system behave in a high wind/earthquake situation.

rb

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Re: Bill Gross Keynote at DLD Munich 2019 on cheap gravity energy storage
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2020, 10:27:03 AM »
I don't understand how this new gravity energy storage plan can be so much cheaper than pumping water to the top of the mountain as a gravity storage? It seems far more reliable to use water than these concrete blocks. Imagine what happens in a windy day.
My guess is that because you don't need the land for the reservoirs.

SharperDingaan

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Re: Bill Gross Keynote at DLD Munich 2019 on cheap gravity energy storage
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2020, 10:54:37 AM »
I don't understand how this new gravity energy storage plan can be so much cheaper than pumping water to the top of the mountain as a gravity storage? It seems far more reliable to use water than these concrete blocks. Imagine what happens in a windy day.
My guess is that because you don't need the land for the reservoirs.

You don't need nearby hills/elevations (to pump the water to). You can put it right next to the user (big factory, downtown core, etc).
The 'patent' is the out-of-the-box solution. Sure people can/will copy it, but you will have the first leader network advantage; first on the 'go to' list, and the more copying and popular they become, the more your phone rings :)

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mcliu

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Re: Bill Gross Keynote at DLD Munich 2019 on cheap gravity energy storage
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2020, 02:19:09 PM »
I don't understand how this new gravity energy storage plan can be so much cheaper than pumping water to the top of the mountain as a gravity storage? It seems far more reliable to use water than these concrete blocks. Imagine what happens in a windy day.
My guess is that because you don't need the land for the reservoirs.
I read somewhere that new hydro developments are discouraged now due to its environmental damage from large area flooding (dam) & carbon release (drowned trees).