Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 464234 times)

cubsfan

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2420 on: March 24, 2020, 08:29:50 PM »

I dont recall anyone questioning the Chinese travel ban.  Anyone. 

You're kidding right - did you watch the democratic presidential debates? - Joe Biden AND Bernie Sanders said those bans
to China and Europe were xenophobic, if not racist - and they WOULD not have imposed them. Go back and listen.

https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/03/14/biden-insists-on-opposing-coronavirus-travel-ban-despite-the-advice-of-experts/

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/19/neither-biden-nor-sanders-would-have-saved-american-lives-with-travel-bans-like-trump-did/

https://nationalfile.com/flashback-biden-opposed-trumps-chinese-coronavirus-travel-ban-as-xenophobia/

https://nypost.com/2020/03/01/criticisms-of-trumps-coronavirus-response-are-sickening-devine/

2 points on this:

1.  None of the articles you included have Biden or Sanders criticizing the travel ban.  The very, very politicized articles twist words to imply that is the case.  They called Trump xenophobic but didn't say anything about the travel ban being wrong or inappropriate.

2.  Just the publications you have used to try and prove the point....well kinda proves all the points being made here.  You are so caught up in Trump-fever and reinforcing views that you have lost all capability to think logically for yourself. At least the people here can admit fault in democrats and hold independent views of their own.  Not the case on your end.

Yeah sure - tell me about it - and go listen to the debates - it's all on tape. In the end, believe what you want to.


no_free_lunch

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2421 on: March 24, 2020, 08:31:19 PM »
The fact that Trump believes everything is going to be just honky-dory in a few weeks shows just how delusional he is. He is so far removed from reality that he is suggesting that restrictions should be EASED while the reality that the number of US diagnosed cases has increased in the last 24 hours.

But of course this ďvery stable geniusĒ knows more than the generals, the doctors, and - well - I guess everyone.

Sweden is also staying open.  Also Japan, Taiwan, South Korea.  Don't panic.

Quote
While most of Europe is firmly locked down in a bid to curb the spread of COVID-19, Sweden is taking a softer line, keeping primary schools, restaurants and bars open and even encouraging people to go outside for a nip of air.

This stands in stark contrast to the urgent tone elsewhere and has sparked heated debate whether Sweden is really doing the right thing.

"We cannot allow the human desperation in Wuhan and Bergamo to be repeated in Sweden. That would be a gamble that violates society's most fundamental principle: that every person has an inherent value," the editor-in-chief of Sweden's biggest newspaper, Dagens Nyheter, wrote on Sunday, calling for either tougher measures or more widespread coronavirus testing.

https://news.yahoo.com/lockdown-wait-sweden-goes-own-way-003057482.html

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2422 on: March 24, 2020, 09:08:43 PM »

I dont recall anyone questioning the Chinese travel ban.  Anyone. 

You're kidding right - did you watch the democratic presidential debates? - Joe Biden AND Bernie Sanders said those bans
to China and Europe were xenophobic, if not racist - and they WOULD not have imposed them. Go back and listen.

https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/03/14/biden-insists-on-opposing-coronavirus-travel-ban-despite-the-advice-of-experts/

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/19/neither-biden-nor-sanders-would-have-saved-american-lives-with-travel-bans-like-trump-did/

https://nationalfile.com/flashback-biden-opposed-trumps-chinese-coronavirus-travel-ban-as-xenophobia/

https://nypost.com/2020/03/01/criticisms-of-trumps-coronavirus-response-are-sickening-devine/

2 points on this:

1.  None of the articles you included have Biden or Sanders criticizing the travel ban.  The very, very politicized articles twist words to imply that is the case.  They called Trump xenophobic but didn't say anything about the travel ban being wrong or inappropriate.

2.  Just the publications you have used to try and prove the point....well kinda proves all the points being made here.  You are so caught up in Trump-fever and reinforcing views that you have lost all capability to think logically for yourself. At least the people here can admit fault in democrats and hold independent views of their own.  Not the case on your end.

Yeah sure - tell me about it - and go listen to the debates - it's all on tape. In the end, believe what you want to.

Republicans have frequently pointed to former vice president Joe Bidenís comments on the day the restrictions were announced, in which he referenced Trumpís ďrecord of hysteria and xenophobia.Ē But Biden wasnít directly talking about the China restrictions, as FactCheck.org has reported.

And in fact, Biden was speaking around the same time that Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar first announced the restrictions. When Bidenís event in Iowa began just after 4 p.m. Eastern time, Azar made the announcement at a briefing that started at 3:42 p.m. Itís not even clear Biden knew it had been announced.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/02/trumps-airing-grievances-coronavirus-is-overcooked/


The timeline of that day is also important when it comes to Trumpís claim that this was a bold step. The travel restrictions actually came after the three major carriers who have service to China ó American Airlines, Delta and United ó had already announced earlier in the day that they would halt that service. As USA Today noted at the time, the move by the airlines ďall but rendered White House action moot.Ē The White House had floated potential travel restrictions earlier in the week, but this was something the airlines jumped on first.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 09:11:12 PM by ERICOPOLY »

EliG

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2423 on: March 24, 2020, 09:15:31 PM »
Canada is talking about a gradual lift of the quarantine. Same thing as trump is saying but we will be more cautious about it. I am assuming that the US will do a gradual return to work, at a state level.  If so, it won't be the economic catastrophe people want to believe.  So the US goes from $20T debt to say $23T as a result of covid stimulus. Not sustainable long term but not the apocalypse tomorrow either.

"The hope is that we can slowly lift these measures, rather than have them completely lifted, and we can control the rebound of the virus such that it does not cause a situation where we overwhelm our health-care system and negate everything that we've done for the past few months."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-second-wave-1.5507522

The bolded part is political spin. You misrepresented Canadian policies to defend Trump.

The article you linked is one CBC reporter talking to a couple of experts. They discussed -- hypothetically -- what may happen way down the line. These experts are not talking in any official capacity. They don't represent Canada. They are not in charge of anything.

If you listen to our politicians who are actually in charge, the message is very different from what Trump is saying. Federal health minister has recently threatened to tighten the screws (because many Canadians are not complying with what's been asked). Provinces are imposing more restrictions, e.g. Ontario and Quebec closed all non-essential businesses just this week. There is zero happy talk about being back in business by Easter.


samwise

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2424 on: March 24, 2020, 09:34:51 PM »
Canít we move the political discussion somewhere else?

Meanwhile itís true that eventually weíll have to relax restrictions in every country, but this article estimates 7 weeks when itís a very strict lockdown. And then an ďopen societyĒ like South Korea, with lots of testing, contact tracing (forget your privacy) , isolation of cases, no large crowds, face masks etc. Thatís not exactly a return to normal. This article posted by Liberty is still the best description Iíve seen.

If you have those controls in the first place, you never have to go through a lockdown, hopefully. But there is only 90 days(!) worth of data on this virus, so there is huge uncertainty around any of these statements.

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

cubsfan

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2425 on: March 24, 2020, 09:38:48 PM »

I dont recall anyone questioning the Chinese travel ban.  Anyone. 

You're kidding right - did you watch the democratic presidential debates? - Joe Biden AND Bernie Sanders said those bans
to China and Europe were xenophobic, if not racist - and they WOULD not have imposed them. Go back and listen.

https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/03/14/biden-insists-on-opposing-coronavirus-travel-ban-despite-the-advice-of-experts/

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/19/neither-biden-nor-sanders-would-have-saved-american-lives-with-travel-bans-like-trump-did/

https://nationalfile.com/flashback-biden-opposed-trumps-chinese-coronavirus-travel-ban-as-xenophobia/

https://nypost.com/2020/03/01/criticisms-of-trumps-coronavirus-response-are-sickening-devine/

2 points on this:

1.  None of the articles you included have Biden or Sanders criticizing the travel ban.  The very, very politicized articles twist words to imply that is the case.  They called Trump xenophobic but didn't say anything about the travel ban being wrong or inappropriate.

2.  Just the publications you have used to try and prove the point....well kinda proves all the points being made here.  You are so caught up in Trump-fever and reinforcing views that you have lost all capability to think logically for yourself. At least the people here can admit fault in democrats and hold independent views of their own.  Not the case on your end.

Yeah sure - tell me about it - and go listen to the debates - it's all on tape. In the end, believe what you want to.

Republicans have frequently pointed to former vice president Joe Bidenís comments on the day the restrictions were announced, in which he referenced Trumpís ďrecord of hysteria and xenophobia.Ē But Biden wasnít directly talking about the China restrictions, as FactCheck.org has reported.

And in fact, Biden was speaking around the same time that Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar first announced the restrictions. When Bidenís event in Iowa began just after 4 p.m. Eastern time, Azar made the announcement at a briefing that started at 3:42 p.m. Itís not even clear Biden knew it had been announced.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/02/trumps-airing-grievances-coronavirus-is-overcooked/


The timeline of that day is also important when it comes to Trumpís claim that this was a bold step. The travel restrictions actually came after the three major carriers who have service to China ó American Airlines, Delta and United ó had already announced earlier in the day that they would halt that service. As USA Today noted at the time, the move by the airlines ďall but rendered White House action moot.Ē The White House had floated potential travel restrictions earlier in the week, but this was something the airlines jumped on first.

Uh, Biden is right here on tape discussing the ban...in the video - January 31st,

Then crap like this..

On Thursday, idiot Biden tweeted:

ďA wall will not stop the coronavirus. Banning all travel from Europe ó or any other part of the world ó will not stop it. This disease could impact every nation and any person on the planet ó and we need a plan to combat it.Ē

no_free_lunch

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2426 on: March 24, 2020, 09:55:19 PM »
Canít we move the political discussion somewhere else?

Meanwhile itís true that eventually weíll have to relax restrictions in every country, but this article estimates 7 weeks when itís a very strict lockdown. And then an ďopen societyĒ like South Korea, with lots of testing, contact tracing (forget your privacy) , isolation of cases, no large crowds, face masks etc. Thatís not exactly a return to normal. This article posted by Liberty is still the best description Iíve seen.

If you have those controls in the first place, you never have to go through a lockdown, hopefully. But there is only 90 days(!) worth of data on this virus, so there is huge uncertainty around any of these statements.

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

There won't be a return to normal but as long as people are able to work the risk to the economy is negligible.

no_free_lunch

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2427 on: March 24, 2020, 09:59:25 PM »
Eli, it shows that the concepts trump is pushing are not so far fetched. I agree it will take longer than he says, he's trying to soothe investors to some extent.  I think Canada risks being too conservative and damaging the economy. Remember that there is a true cost in lives when you don't have the funds to pay for your health care.

samwise

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2428 on: March 24, 2020, 10:25:49 PM »
Eli, it shows that the concepts trump is pushing are not so far fetched. I agree it will take longer than he says, he's trying to soothe investors to some extent.  I think Canada risks being too conservative and damaging the economy. Remember that there is a true cost in lives when you don't have the funds to pay for your health care.
Isnít that healthcare risk unique to the USA among most developed nations. Most OECD have socialized healthcare. So yes the USA may have to calculate its costs differently than other countries.

UK

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2429 on: March 25, 2020, 12:57:57 AM »
https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464?mod=hp_opin_pos_2

"In Iceland, deCode Genetics is working with the government to perform widespread testing. In a sample of nearly 2,000 entirely asymptomatic people, researchers estimated disease prevalence of just over 1%. Icelandís first case was reported on Feb. 28, weeks behind the U.S. Itís plausible that the proportion of the U.S. population that has been infected is double, triple or even 10 times as high as the estimates from Iceland. That also implies a dramatically lower fatality rate."

"The epidemic started in China sometime in November or December. The first confirmed U.S. cases included a person who traveled from Wuhan on Jan. 15, and it is likely that the virus entered before that: Tens of thousands of people traveled from Wuhan to the U.S. in December. Existing evidence suggests that the virus is highly transmissible and that the number of infections doubles roughly every three days. An epidemic seed on Jan. 1 implies that by March 9 about six million people in the U.S. would have been infected. As of March 23, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, there were 499 Covid-19 deaths in the U.S. If our surmise of six million cases is accurate, thatís a mortality rate of 0.01%, assuming a two week lag between infection and death. This is one-tenth of the flu mortality rate of 0.1%. Such a low death rate would be cause for optimism."

"This does not make Covid-19 a nonissue. The daily reports from Italy and across the U.S. show real struggles and overwhelmed health systems. But a 20,000- or 40,000-death epidemic is a far less severe problem than one that kills two million. Given the enormous consequences of decisions around Covid-19 response, getting clear data to guide decisions now is critical. We donít know the true infection rate in the U.S. Antibody testing of representative samples to measure disease prevalence (including the recovered) is crucial. Nearly every day a new lab gets approval for antibody testing, so population testing using this technology is now feasible."

"If weíre right about the limited scale of the epidemic, then measures focused on older populations and hospitals are sensible. Elective procedures will need to be rescheduled. Hospital resources will need to be reallocated to care for critically ill patients. Triage will need to improve. And policy makers will need to focus on reducing risks for older adults and people with underlying medical conditions. A universal quarantine may not be worth the costs it imposes on the economy, community and individual mental and physical health. We should undertake immediate steps to evaluate the empirical basis of the current lockdowns."