Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 939764 times)

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8260 on: November 27, 2020, 01:54:44 PM »
Stay home! Actually most covid transmissions occur at home!

And it would last two-three weeks and the pandemic would at that point be over.

Unless...  Unless...  Unless...

Someone leaves the house and spreads it to someone from ANOTHER household!


Gregmal

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8261 on: November 27, 2020, 02:00:00 PM »
Except that is nearly impossible because you do have real essential workers...and its also unconstitutional. So yes, its an appealing option to an academic, which most science folks are...but to someone with a rational understanding of how the world works and how the US is setup, it should have been an obvious non starter. The problem with the politicians, is they dont care, and even if, like Cuomo, their policies are killing people, or like Newsome and Pelosi, they are total hypocrites, "we're saving lives" is a great campaign slogan.

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8262 on: November 27, 2020, 02:41:30 PM »
Except that is nearly impossible because you do have real essential workers...and its also unconstitutional. So yes, its an appealing option to an academic, which most science folks are...but to someone with a rational understanding of how the world works and how the US is setup, it should have been an obvious non starter. The problem with the politicians, is they dont care, and even if, like Cuomo, their policies are killing people, or like Newsome and Pelosi, they are total hypocrites, "we're saving lives" is a great campaign slogan.

It was Trump's slogan too until, as the Woodward tapes reveal, Kushner & Trump decided they would run a campaign to "reopen" and politicized the whole thing.

Investor20

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8263 on: November 27, 2020, 04:01:04 PM »
Senate hearing testimony by Dr. George Fareed, a Harvard MD with honors and more profile given below:
https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Testimony-Fareed-2020-11-19.pdf
Since early March both in my Brawley clinic and Dr. Brian Tyson’s The All Valley Urgent Care Clinic in El Centro (where I also work), over 25,000 fearful people were screened, over two thousand four hundred were COVID-19 positive and we treated successfully many hundreds of the high risk and symptomatic ones.
And this doctor has excellent credentials:
http://www.ivcommunityfoundation.org/media/managed/npd2019/NPD_2019_Program.pdf
PHILANTHROPIST OF THE YEAR Dr. George Fareed
Dr.  George  Fareed  graduated  with  honors  from  Harvard  Medical  School  in 1970  and  has  been  practicing  medicine  for  49  years.  He  spent  the  first  20 years after graduation researching and teaching at Harvard and UCLA. He was Assistant  Professor at  HMS  from  1973-1976.  He  was  Associate  Professor  at UCLA  from  1976-1996.  He  received  the  Soma  Weiss  Award  for  his  DNA                research.  He  founded  International  Genetic  Engineering,  Inc. in 1980 and Advanced Antigens, Inc. in 1991, the same year he opened his medical practice in  Brawley,  CA.  And,  he  was  the  US  Davis  Cup  tennis  team  physician  for  20 years and worked at 38 team matches and the US Olympics in Sydney in 2000.  In  the  memorable  1995  Davis  Cup  final  against  Russia  in  Moscow,  he  helped Pete Sampras bounce back from grueling leg cramps. He has been recognized for his many accomplishments including the 2004..........
........
You can read his full profile in the link...but my point is:
Whenever I went to doctor for my family one question I always had was how many they treated and what was the result and the doctors credentials.  If a doctor tells me they treated hundreds of patients and all of them are doing well, that usually works for me to take that treatment.
Why should not be taken seriously for Covid and ignore these doctors?
Short answer: The person may be right.
Longer answer: This opinion shows the challenge when there are 'competing' schools of thought. When this issue becomes driven by 'us vs them', constructive discussions become difficult and often deviate from basic data, reasoning, weight of evidence etc. The opinion also shows the challenge related to balancing personal and collective responsibility.

For various reasons, i've been involved in self-regulatory ventures which included to limit or terminate certain activities or even careers. A basic principle involved to respect alternative ways to think but the burden of proof should lie on the person voicing unusual or contrary opinions. So far, the evidence for the use of hydroxychloroquine at any stage of CV remains unconvincing and a lot of what the emerging school of thought is doing is to focus on the container, not the content. When assessing specific cases, the following type of comment sometimes appeared: [the] "doctor tells me they treated hundreds of patients and all of them are doing well". This was typically a massive red flag.


 "doctor tells me they treated hundreds of patients and all of them are doing well". This was typically a massive red flag."

Many if not most patients go to a doctor and ask how the previous patients with similar situation did under their care.

"So far, the evidence for the use of hydroxychloroquine at any stage of CV remains unconvincing and a lot of what the emerging school of thought is doing is to focus on the container, not the content"

People have been talking over each other but talking about different treatments in different diseases.

First of all, Dr. Fareed was not talking about using Hydroxychloroquine alone.  From his testimony
"We have always used a triple HCQ cocktail: HCQ (3200 mg over 5 days), azithromycin or doxycycline and especially zinc, which is often left out in the studies"

They try to treat early.  Many studies are done in hospital (see below for example):
"The cocktail is best given early within the first 5 to 7 days while the patient is in the flu stage ( I have had success treating even as late as 14 days when patients have been sent home untreated from the ER).  The timing of the drug is when the virus is in the period of maximal replication in the upper respiratory tract"

He testified using in high risk patients. 
"I use it especially in high risk individuals (over 60 or with co-morbidities and anyone with moderate to severe flu symptoms)---the healthy do not need the treatment. I used this regimen to successfully treat 31 elderly nursing home residents in an outbreak in June and 29 recovered fully"

Now he added another agent
"I am routinely now combining Ivermectin in a quadruple HCQ/IVM cocktail with excellent results since Ivermectin is safe and has a different anti-covid action."

If you see few days back article by NIH (Nov 24)
Hydroxychloroquine doesn’t benefit hospitalized COVID-19 patients
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/hydroxychloroquine-doesnt-benefit-hospitalized-covid-19-patients
This randomized study is in hospitalized patients, doesnt mention zinc, and not ivermectin.

But the whole point of the treatment Dr. Fareed is talking about is to reduce hospitalization.
"The results are consistently good, often dramatic, with improvement within 48 hours·I have seen very few hospitalizations, and only a few deaths in patients that were sick to begin with and received the medication late while hospitalized."

That is after treating:
"over two thousand four hundred were COVID-19 positive and we treated successfully many hundreds of the high risk and symptomatic ones"

So when people say Hydroxychloroquine doesnt work....are they talking about using it early, in high risk patients with cocktail that includes zinc, azithromycin or doxycylin, and now ivermectin? Otherwise they are talking about different patient population and different medicines and different disease, IMO.

Not recommending any treatment. Only for discussion.

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8264 on: November 27, 2020, 04:54:24 PM »
In May, Trump claimed he was taking hydroxychloroquine to prevent covid-19:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-reveals-taking-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus

And later when he had covid-19 they didn't give it to him at Walter Reed.

Investor20

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8265 on: November 27, 2020, 05:59:23 PM »
In May, Trump claimed he was taking hydroxychloroquine to prevent covid-19:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-reveals-taking-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus

And later when he had covid-19 they didn't give it to him at Walter Reed.

Trump was treated early with Antibodies, Remdesivir and bunch of other medicines.

The problem is both Antibodies or Remdesivir are IV infused and cannot be given at home.  Remdesivir requires five days of IV infusion.

 Its impossible to treat 150,000 patients (lets say 10,000 high risk patients) every day and treat them with these IV medicines.

Dr. Mcculough talked about the oral medicines to treat early at home so that patients can be quarantined and need not go to hospitals.

For example Japan looked at Avigan an oral antiviral:
Even as Japan has allowed off-label use for the drug against COVID-19, Fujifilm have been careful not to trumpet the effects of their drug.
https://time.com/5814045/ebola-drug-coronavirus-favipiravir/

Fujifilm seeks approval for Avigan as COVID-19 treatment in Japan
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-fujifilm-avigan/fujifilm-seeks-approval-for-avigan-as-covid-19-treatment-in-japan-idUSKBN2741BB

China with Chloroquine:
However, it has recommended the use of a similar malaria drug called chloroquine.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3098021/coronavirus-conflicting-treatment-message-china-rejects-trump

Saudi Arabia with HCQ:
The Effect of Early Hydroxychloroquine-based Therapy in COVID-19 Patients in Ambulatory Care Settings: A Nationwide Prospective Cohort Study
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.09.20184143v1

Ivermectin has been tried in Bangladesh, Iran & Egypt:
https://www.trialsitenews.com/dhaka-medical-college-shares-results-of-randomized-controlled-trial-ivermectin-doxycycline-benefits-patients-with-mild-to-moderate-covid-19/
Dhaka Medical College Shares Results of Randomized Controlled Trial: Ivermectin & Doxycycline Benefits Patients with Mild to Moderate COVID-19

Ivermectin as an adjunct treatment for hospitalized adult COVID-19 patients: A randomized multi-center clinical trial
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-109670/v1

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-100956/v1
Efficacy and Safety of Ivermectin for Treatment and prophylaxis of COVID-19 Pandemic
"A multicenter randomized controlled clinical trial (RCCT) study design ....."

You need to be careful because some of these ivermectin studies were done in places where Hydroxychloroquine is part of standard of care and hence HCQ is there in both arms.


So what is US is doing? 

For Patients with COVID-19 Who Are Not Hospitalized or Who Are Hospitalized With Moderate Disease but Do Not Require Supplemental Oxygen
Recommendations: The Panel does not recommend any specific antiviral or immunomodulatory therapy for the treatment of COVID-19 in these patients.
https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapeutic-management/

Trump got early treatment.  But that treatment by IV infusion wont be available for 99% of the world because there are only so many hospital beds.

Not suggesting any treatment.  Please consult your doctor or doctors. Only for discussion
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 07:18:45 PM by Investor20 »


ERICOPOLY

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8267 on: November 28, 2020, 08:45:52 AM »

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/victoria-australia-no-new-coronavirus-cases_n_5fc2734ac5b61d04bfaa183a

Australia’s second-largest state, Victoria, once the country’s COVID-19 hotspot, said on Friday it has gone 28 days without detecting any new infections, a benchmark widely cited as eliminating the virus from the community.

The state also has zero active cases after the last COVID-19 patient was discharged from hospital this week, a far cry from August when Victoria recorded more than 700 cases in one day and active infections totalled nearly 8,000.

The spread of the virus was only contained after a lockdown lasting more than 100 days, leaving some 5 million people in Melbourne, Australia’s second largest city, largely confined to their homes.




frank87

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8268 on: November 28, 2020, 05:19:21 PM »

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/victoria-australia-no-new-coronavirus-cases_n_5fc2734ac5b61d04bfaa183a

Australia’s second-largest state, Victoria, once the country’s COVID-19 hotspot, said on Friday it has gone 28 days without detecting any new infections, a benchmark widely cited as eliminating the virus from the community.

The state also has zero active cases after the last COVID-19 patient was discharged from hospital this week, a far cry from August when Victoria recorded more than 700 cases in one day and active infections totalled nearly 8,000.

The spread of the virus was only contained after a lockdown lasting more than 100 days, leaving some 5 million people in Melbourne, Australia’s second largest city, largely confined to their homes.

I'm not so sure that their lockdown is entirely responsible for their low case count. Australia is in summer right now and it's becoming increasingly clear that this virus is highly seasonal.

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8269 on: November 28, 2020, 05:57:01 PM »

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/victoria-australia-no-new-coronavirus-cases_n_5fc2734ac5b61d04bfaa183a

Australia’s second-largest state, Victoria, once the country’s COVID-19 hotspot, said on Friday it has gone 28 days without detecting any new infections, a benchmark widely cited as eliminating the virus from the community.

The state also has zero active cases after the last COVID-19 patient was discharged from hospital this week, a far cry from August when Victoria recorded more than 700 cases in one day and active infections totalled nearly 8,000.

The spread of the virus was only contained after a lockdown lasting more than 100 days, leaving some 5 million people in Melbourne, Australia’s second largest city, largely confined to their homes.

I'm not so sure that their lockdown is entirely responsible for their low case count. Australia is in summer right now and it's becoming increasingly clear that this virus is highly seasonal.

We didn't hit zero in the US during summer.  The numbers actually went UP as we entered summer coincident with lifting restrictions.