Author Topic: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.  (Read 4633002 times)

WB_fan82

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16080 on: October 30, 2020, 10:23:19 AM »
I think this is simple.  There is an elephant in the room.  There is no upside, none, nada, zilch for Mnuchin to move on the GSEs before the election.  It's all downside from optics of bailing out hedge funds and opens up all kinds of scrutiny.

Mnuchin has been the consummate survivor in this administration that has seen record turnover.  He's smart.  Another poster said he's an analytical guy --  based on lack of TSY personnel, he's a micromanager that does things personally.  He's also been super busy with more pressing items:  China, stimulus, covid, funding the govt, etc.

So all of that tells me that the GSEs are in his "want to do" pile but not in his "need to do now" pile.  And he's fully aware of the political risks of acting before the election.

After the election, that falls off the table.  That would be THE time for him to act.  There is still a white house order to reform Fannie/Freddie.  There is still an order to negotiate a new amendment and covenants.

And we WILL get something.  FNMA is close to the capital reserve buffer, which forces the conversation.  The real question is whether Mnuchin punts by increasing the buffers to $200B and keeps the NWS in place, or whether he wants to take the step to convert the sr pfd and negotiate a commitment fee to truly get the GSEs privatized.

I don't think he needs to settle Collins to do any of this.  He can let Collins play out.  Worst case, $125B+ goes back to the GSEs which increases the value of TSY's stake.  TSY is in a win-win position.  In fact, I think it might very well be a bridge too far for him to settle Collins.  He can accomplish the same objective of getting govt out of ownership w/o all the bad press of settling Collins (and I'm not even sure if he has the authority to do a monetary settlement?!).  Obviously that's only half a loaf, but it's the only half he's ever talked about.






WB_fan82

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16081 on: October 30, 2020, 10:28:57 AM »
Off topic, but I can't resist.

Trump is toast.  The reason is simple.  He net lost people that voted for him in 2016 to Biden.  Especially women.  On the other hand, almost nobody that voted for HRC in 2016 now finds themselves voting for Trump in 2020.

Remember his victory margins were narrow in 2016.  So he needs to pick up 2 new voters for every 1 he loses to Biden.  That hill is way too big to climb.

If only 1 or 2% switch it's 2 - 4% ground to make up.  Just not happening.  The women are deciding 2020, like it or not.

cherzeca

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16082 on: October 30, 2020, 11:22:41 AM »
@orthopa

a couple of thoughts, inspired by my dealings with govt as a private lawyer.

with govt, DOJ controls litigation, Treasury and WH control policy.  what you have seen for over the last year is that these two are at odds.  you can't recap and win Collins...unless you basically give up your Collins win in order to do the recap.

so why has this dichotomy persisted? well until collins, DOJ hasn't lost.  so you keep going until you get smacked down.  now not only has it lost at circuit court level, but with ACB replacing RBJ, scotus doesn't look promising.  so what does DOJ do?.....nothing until it has to.  when does it have to make a decision? I think not later than 12/09.  until then, variables will shake out, not least of which is whether trump remains in office.  if trump loses, I think a settlement is likely, certainly Calabria will want it.  if trump wins, I am not sure whether DOJ will conclude lets go to scotus and have them smack us down too...but that sounds like a dumb strategy to me.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 11:39:15 AM by cherzeca »

COBFInfinity

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16083 on: October 30, 2020, 11:47:20 AM »
As a reminder, it's best to keep your political opinions out of this discussion. With people on the right and left both claiming 100% certainty about their team winning - guess what? Someone is wrong.

The rest of us in the real world know that there is uncertainty as to what happens. With the GSE's, it obviously does matter who wins POTUS and it makes sense to consider the different paths the GSE's will take based on that fork in the road. But it is not helpful for people to chime in with, "Well, I know Mr. XYZ is going to win", implying that we should not factor any uncertainty into this investment.

COBFInfinity

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16084 on: October 30, 2020, 01:46:00 PM »
As I delineated before in another post if Trump loses and the SCOTUS is argued then at a minimum I would heavily decrease my position...

The problem with that idea is that Mr. Market will probably reduce your position for you before you get a chance.

cherzeca

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16085 on: October 30, 2020, 02:16:11 PM »
As I delineated before in another post if Trump loses and the SCOTUS is argued then at a minimum I would heavily decrease my position...

The problem with that idea is that Mr. Market will probably reduce your position for you before you get a chance.

the problem with the GSE trade has always been that there are legal tea leaves, political tea leaves and good old fashioned how's-the-business-doing tea leaves to read.  if collins is argued before scotus, then the price will drop because people will need to focus on legal teal leaves, and not be comfortable doing so.  I will listen to the oral arg tape before I do anything re positions

orthopa

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16086 on: October 31, 2020, 01:06:45 PM »
@orthopa

a couple of thoughts, inspired by my dealings with govt as a private lawyer.

with govt, DOJ controls litigation, Treasury and WH control policy.  what you have seen for over the last year is that these two are at odds.  you can't recap and win Collins...unless you basically give up your Collins win in order to do the recap.

so why has this dichotomy persisted? well until collins, DOJ hasn't lost.  so you keep going until you get smacked down.  now not only has it lost at circuit court level, but with ACB replacing RBJ, scotus doesn't look promising.  so what does DOJ do?.....nothing until it has to.  when does it have to make a decision? I think not later than 12/09.  until then, variables will shake out, not least of which is whether trump remains in office.  if trump loses, I think a settlement is likely, certainly Calabria will want it.  if trump wins, I am not sure whether DOJ will conclude lets go to scotus and have them smack us down too...but that sounds like a dumb strategy to me.

This is the exact line of thinking I have. You will have a 180 degree change in who controls policy with what will still appear to be a shareholder unfriendly DOJ by arguing the case.  The damage even with a favorable SCOTUS outcome is how different can the policy be? Are Obama era holdovers coming back? Elizabeth Warren has been floated as a Treasury Sec possibility. I don't even want to guess the chances of that but jesus, imagine negotiating a PSPA with her! lol. I have picked the Brain of others who have said wait 4 more years till the next election for a possible Rep president if Biden gets in. No thanks.

The 12/9 date has become the defacto point of no return in my mind in regards to a settlement in that I have leaned heavily on others in regards to that its disrespectful to settle a case after its argued at the SCOTUS, etc, etc. Maybe that's wrong I don't know.

Its certainly the final count down.

cherzeca

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16087 on: October 31, 2020, 03:05:07 PM »
I do believe that SG will think that it is disrespectful of scotus to argue then settle. but respect seems rather old fashioned these days...

sholland

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16088 on: November 01, 2020, 04:10:03 AM »
I do believe that SG will think that it is disrespectful of scotus to argue then settle. but respect seems rather old fashioned these days...

cherzeca - you believe that there will be a settlement before 9-Dec-2020.
I believe that all negotiation occurs at the 11th hour.
If true, then when do you think is the latest that settlement happens?
Seems to me that the courtís time is still wasted if settlement happens 8-Dec-2020.

cherzeca

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #16089 on: November 01, 2020, 01:15:43 PM »
I do believe that SG will think that it is disrespectful of scotus to argue then settle. but respect seems rather old fashioned these days...

cherzeca - you believe that there will be a settlement before 9-Dec-2020.
I believe that all negotiation occurs at the 11th hour.
If true, then when do you think is the latest that settlement happens?
Seems to me that the courtís time is still wasted if settlement happens 8-Dec-2020.

it is a question of a bright line.  yes, scotus granted cert, and cert grants are scarce, so you are right, there is a bit of "using" scotus already.  but actually holding orals and then settling is a step beyond imo, a bright line.