Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Investment Ideas => Topic started by: shamelesscloner on January 18, 2021, 09:23:01 PM

Title: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: shamelesscloner on January 18, 2021, 09:23:01 PM
Word on the street is that Mohnish Pabrai took a 5% stake recently.

A few fine resources to learn more about the company...
Value Investors Club: https://www.valueinvestorsclub.com/idea/Shinoken/7471075774

Raper Capital: https://rapercapital.com/2019/08/19/shinoken-this-is-what-value-looks-like/

And it appears Shinoken was presented as a Best Idea 2021 at MOI Global: https://moiglobal.com/mike-kruger-202101/

If you own Shinoken, what is your elevator pitch?
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: Arski on February 01, 2021, 12:12:42 PM
Thanks for sharing those great resources. I take a lot of comfort in those long and detailed write-ups, Pabrai holding it and a 18.5% stake for the president of the company, Hideaki Shinohara.

I'm take more comfort in 5% bets and made Shinoken also one.
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: shamelesscloner on February 01, 2021, 12:16:57 PM
Thanks for sharing those great resources. I take a lot of comfort in those long and detailed write-ups, Pabrai holding it and a 18.5% stake for the president of the company, Hideaki Shinohara.

I'm take more comfort in 5% bets and made Shinoken also one.

Raper Capital also posted an update on Shinoken here: https://rapercapital.com/2020/02/19/shinoken-update-the-story-keeps-getting-better-still-a-double-and-more/
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: Arski on February 01, 2021, 12:26:12 PM
Thanks for sharing those great resources. I take a lot of comfort in those long and detailed write-ups, Pabrai holding it and a 18.5% stake for the president of the company, Hideaki Shinohara.

I'm take more comfort in 5% bets and made Shinoken also one.

Raper Capital also posted an update on Shinoken here: https://rapercapital.com/2020/02/19/shinoken-update-the-story-keeps-getting-better-still-a-double-and-more/

Interesting. Thanks!
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: zuminsan on February 18, 2021, 06:00:30 PM
I Took 20% position and very comfortable. If it gets cheaper, I will pile in more.
I just took a simple approach of taking their recurring cash flow business which is around 5-6 billion yen and assume every other parts of the business and their cash flow falls apart 0 Yen. So I am basically buying strongest part of the business which is the real estate Management service, Elder care, utility and their insurance business all together. It would still be a bargain Because the current market cap is around 40-42 bil. yen, so I am paying 6 -8 time cash flow for the strongest part of business and bet everything else is 0. I think my downside is pretty protected.
If the other part of the business (construction, apartment & condo sales) stays normal which is roughly about 50-60% which is another 6-7 bill yen cash, then it's a double.
Love to hear what others think, maybe there is some blindspot that I am missing. Would love to find out.
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: zuminsan on February 18, 2021, 06:02:32 PM
Also read Raper capital's report, anyone has any idea on why he is using EBIT to look at the business instead of new income or owner's earning? Thanks
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: valuepickr on February 18, 2021, 07:55:43 PM
Any idea why volume is very less
https://seekingalpha.com/symbol/SHIOF
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: shamelesscloner on February 18, 2021, 09:14:08 PM
Any idea why volume is very less
https://seekingalpha.com/symbol/SHIOF

It shows up on TDAmeritrade but isn't actually available. I wonder about other US brokerages.
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: MattR on February 18, 2021, 11:50:15 PM
Apparently Raper has already sold due to this:
https://twitter.com/puppyeh1/status/1362563109357973504
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: Arski on February 19, 2021, 12:02:48 AM
I saw nobody mentioning it (also not in the Raper Capital write-up, if I remember it correctly), but I'm a little concerned with the global housing boom. I don't know how the house prices are in Japan but probably are quite high.

In 2008 - which was of course an exceptional year -, shinoken got hit bad and lost 50% of their revenue. Their share price got hammered from 514 in april 2007 to the low of 21 in september 2009.

As I understand it correctly, their income from real estate was like 80% or more and now the income is like 50% service and 50% real estate, which reduces the exposure to a downturn/crash in the housing market. Still, when such an event happens I think shinoken could lose 25% of their revenue.

Maybe someone thinks he has a better view/judgement about this?
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: valuepickr on February 19, 2021, 08:21:52 AM
Any idea why volume is very less
https://seekingalpha.com/symbol/SHIOF

It shows up on TDAmeritrade but isn't actually available. I wonder about other US brokerages.

Thank You !
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: SoonParted on February 19, 2021, 10:48:03 AM
Apparently Raper has already sold due to this:
https://twitter.com/puppyeh1/status/1362563109357973504

Tech companies routinely compensate executives with options and dilutive share creation, so I don't see why this is seen as terrible, that he created 3% more shares to give to charity.  It's certainly a negative, but are such things more common in Japan?
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: zuminsan on February 20, 2021, 01:46:41 PM
Honestly, I was in a panic on why raper sold and was looking through the reasoning. Based on what I read, the treasury shares are the shares that Shinoken group previous purchased with cash and it was sitting in the balance sheet (those shares didnít get retired so Itís like cash sitting in the balance sheet). So from what I understand, it is a proposal to donate to a scholarship foundation within the shinoken group to incentivize the student workers joining the company after graduation. So the shares are not really newly issued shares but they are pre-existing shares, and I think ceo is proposing to give those shares(like cash) and donate to a company foundation.
Even if thatís the case, I donít see how thatís changing the story of the company, under-priced Real Estate construction and management company, I am buying based on the fact the strong recurring revenue stream of the management service (5-6 Bil Ownerís earning) and putting 0 value on the real construction/apart/condo side (assuming they build no apart/condo/building and take on no construction project in the future). Itís current market cap is 38 bil yen.
Again, love to hear what others think, maybe my story is completely wrong.
Currently looking into more statistics on the total market Apart/condo construction and hopeful get some ideas on the future prosperity of Shinoken group in Japanese Real Estate. I think it would help to get some idea of the future of Shinoken market cap if we have roughly the total market cap of the apartment/condo construction industry. 
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: Spekulatius on February 20, 2021, 03:23:04 PM
Apparently Raper has already sold due to this:
https://twitter.com/puppyeh1/status/1362563109357973504

Tech companies routinely compensate executives with options and dilutive share creation, so I don't see why this is seen as terrible, that he created 3% more shares to give to charity.  It's certainly a negative, but are such things more common in Japan?

I donít think share based compensation is that common in Japan, outside of the tech sector perhaps. The problem with this share donation is not that it fundamentally changes the story for this in terms of valuation, it puts in question the managements fairness and capital allocation.
There are plenty of cheap stocks in Japan and they are very easy to find. What is hard to find are cheap stocks with capable management and reasonable capital allocation. I think in this regard, Shinoken is now a bit more of a question mark. Well at least it has a rising dividend going for it, but that alone is unlikely to give shareholders a  reasonable return.
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: ACooke on February 20, 2021, 09:09:23 PM

I donít think share based compensation is that common in Japan, outside of the tech sector perhaps. The problem with this share donation is not that it fundamentally changes the story for this in terms of valuation, it puts in question the managements fairness and capital allocation.
There are plenty of cheap stocks in Japan and they are very easy to find. What is hard to find are cheap stocks with capable management and reasonable capital allocation. I think in this regard, Shinoken is now a bit more of a question mark. Well at least it has a rising dividend going for it, but that alone is unlikely to give shareholders a  reasonable return.
[/quote]

I agree - i think it's more a matter of perception and a question as to managements moves going forward.
I don't and didn't have overly high standards for management with Japan's corporate culture, i don't think they're needed here, at this price.

To me, 8909 is too cheap for a reasonable/good business with a hand full of growth 'options'. There's not much that needs to go right for this to return north of 10%.

Mohnish speaks highly of the business, and as a 'spawner' with a long track record in this recent interview. Sorry - not certain on the time stamp - closer to the start/middle than the end. It's worth a watch regardless.

https://youtu.be/pUiwBs_N5cE

Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: Spekulatius on February 21, 2021, 06:57:16 AM
Another thought is that the transfer of 3% of the shares to a foundation, which I assume is controlled by chairman Shinohara too, is just a move to ensure control now that more and more gaijin show up as shareholders and may make some noise.
Shinohara owns ~18.5% himself, so another ~3% that he controls without really paying anything up sure doesn’t hurt in this respect.
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: keerthiprasad on February 21, 2021, 02:55:33 PM
Why is Shinoken any different than all the other Japanese value traps?
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: RetroRanger on February 22, 2021, 01:26:45 PM
I have the feeling for clarification to a few things here!!

1) Jeremy Raper did not sold because of the 3% share spending , He sold before ( you can read that on twitter) because he saw better opportunities. If you follow Jeremy you know that he is seeking way shorter investment stories than Shinoken.

2) Pabrai even increased his stake on 29.01 . You can check that for yourseld on EBINET ( the japanese filing system) . Pabrais Fund code is E36293. But here is the query for you guy, to find his latest filings EBINET Filings (https://disclosure.edinet-fsa.go.jp/E01EW/BLMainController.jsp?uji.verb=W0EZA106CXP002003BLogicE&uji.bean=ee.bean.parent.EECommonSearchBean&PID=W1E63023&TID=W1E63023&SESSIONKEY=1613727584709&lgKbn=1&pkbn=0&skbn=0&dskb=&askb=&dflg=0&iflg=0&cal=2&cal2=2&sec=&scc=&shb=&snm=&spf1=1&iec=&icc=&inm=shinoken+group+co.%2Cltd.&spf3=2&iti=8050&fdc=&fnm=&spf5=2&otd=350&otd=360&mon=&yer=&psr=2&yer2=2020&mon2=12&day2=1&yer3=2021&mon3=2&day3=19&row=100&idx=0&str=E36293&kbn=1&flg=1&syoruiKanriNo=). If you use google translate you can see that he increased the amount . And if you look closely you will find out that Pabrai has this position in 2 different funds, not only his Pabrai Fund, but also in the Dhandoo Fund ( i guess for his daughter)

3) "Why is Shinoken any different than all the other Japanese value traps?" Because Shinoken is undervalued even without growth. It is shown in the latest Report from Jeremy Raper and it is even shown in the latest official Shinoken document (mid-long term view) . So even without any future growth you buy the company for less than its asset value... Also Shinoken is not the typical REIT company. It has spawned different stuff, like life insurance, services per app , customer services like managing contracts . Those "managed services" already make 50% of their profit and has even increased during Covid. This is the future of the company.

And i did not even include their expansion programs in Indonesia ( the first official foreigner REIT )

So it is the typical Pabrai move. You have nearly no downside but high potential upside through this "REaaS = Real Estate as a Service" and expansion program. And you have this spawning potential like they have done over the last years.  Look at their 30 years history: https://www.shinoken.co.jp/en/about/history/


Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: Spekulatius on February 22, 2021, 03:20:49 PM
I agree that Shinoken doesnít look like a typically Japanese value trap, but spawning nťe business is a very Japanese thing (thatís how the Keiretsu evolved after all) and many companies start new business lines that often waste capital and donít work out.
Shinoken does better here because their business seems to be working out. Now we we just need a CEO that is friendly to gaijin shareholders.
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: shamelesscloner on February 22, 2021, 08:39:10 PM
I have the feeling for clarification to a few things here!!

1) Jeremy Raper did not sold because of the 3% share spending , He sold before ( you can read that on twitter) because he saw better opportunities. If you follow Jeremy you know that he is seeking way shorter investment stories than Shinoken.

2) Pabrai even increased his stake on 29.01 . You can check that for yourseld on EBINET ( the japanese filing system) . Pabrais Fund code is E36293. But here is the query for you guy, to find his latest filings EBINET Filings (https://disclosure.edinet-fsa.go.jp/E01EW/BLMainController.jsp?uji.verb=W0EZA106CXP002003BLogicE&uji.bean=ee.bean.parent.EECommonSearchBean&PID=W1E63023&TID=W1E63023&SESSIONKEY=1613727584709&lgKbn=1&pkbn=0&skbn=0&dskb=&askb=&dflg=0&iflg=0&cal=2&cal2=2&sec=&scc=&shb=&snm=&spf1=1&iec=&icc=&inm=shinoken+group+co.%2Cltd.&spf3=2&iti=8050&fdc=&fnm=&spf5=2&otd=350&otd=360&mon=&yer=&psr=2&yer2=2020&mon2=12&day2=1&yer3=2021&mon3=2&day3=19&row=100&idx=0&str=E36293&kbn=1&flg=1&syoruiKanriNo=). If you use google translate you can see that he increased the amount . And if you look closely you will find out that Pabrai has this position in 2 different funds, not only his Pabrai Fund, but also in the Dhandoo Fund ( i guess for his daughter)

3) "Why is Shinoken any different than all the other Japanese value traps?" Because Shinoken is undervalued even without growth. It is shown in the latest Report from Jeremy Raper and it is even shown in the latest official Shinoken document (mid-long term view) . So even without any future growth you buy the company for less than its asset value... Also Shinoken is not the typical REIT company. It has spawned different stuff, like life insurance, services per app , customer services like managing contracts . Those "managed services" already make 50% of their profit and has even increased during Covid. This is the future of the company.

And i did not even include their expansion programs in Indonesia ( the first official foreigner REIT )

So it is the typical Pabrai move. You have nearly no downside but high potential upside through this "REaaS = Real Estate as a Service" and expansion program. And you have this spawning potential like they have done over the last years.  Look at their 30 years history: https://www.shinoken.co.jp/en/about/history/

Do you happen to know Li Lu's Fund code?
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: RetroRanger on February 22, 2021, 10:21:19 PM
I agree that Shinoken doesnít look like a typically Japanese value trap, but spawning nťe business is a very Japanese thing (thatís how the Keiretsu evolved after all) and many companies start new business lines that often waste capital and donít work out.
Shinoken does better here because their business seems to be working out. Now we we just need a CEO that is friendly to gaijin shareholders.

Youre right of course about the Keiretsu. But it is just one aspect of Shinoken like stated :)

@Shameless cloner. Sadly no. If anyone would know LiLus japanese fund name or at least one position, we could easily find out. But without any clou no chance :(
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: keerthiprasad on February 23, 2021, 03:13:21 PM
I have the feeling for clarification to a few things here!!

1) Jeremy Raper did not sold because of the 3% share spending , He sold before ( you can read that on twitter) because he saw better opportunities. If you follow Jeremy you know that he is seeking way shorter investment stories than Shinoken.

2) Pabrai even increased his stake on 29.01 . You can check that for yourseld on EBINET ( the japanese filing system) . Pabrais Fund code is E36293. But here is the query for you guy, to find his latest filings EBINET Filings (https://disclosure.edinet-fsa.go.jp/E01EW/BLMainController.jsp?uji.verb=W0EZA106CXP002003BLogicE&uji.bean=ee.bean.parent.EECommonSearchBean&PID=W1E63023&TID=W1E63023&SESSIONKEY=1613727584709&lgKbn=1&pkbn=0&skbn=0&dskb=&askb=&dflg=0&iflg=0&cal=2&cal2=2&sec=&scc=&shb=&snm=&spf1=1&iec=&icc=&inm=shinoken+group+co.%2Cltd.&spf3=2&iti=8050&fdc=&fnm=&spf5=2&otd=350&otd=360&mon=&yer=&psr=2&yer2=2020&mon2=12&day2=1&yer3=2021&mon3=2&day3=19&row=100&idx=0&str=E36293&kbn=1&flg=1&syoruiKanriNo=). If you use google translate you can see that he increased the amount . And if you look closely you will find out that Pabrai has this position in 2 different funds, not only his Pabrai Fund, but also in the Dhandoo Fund ( i guess for his daughter)

3) "Why is Shinoken any different than all the other Japanese value traps?" Because Shinoken is undervalued even without growth. It is shown in the latest Report from Jeremy Raper and it is even shown in the latest official Shinoken document (mid-long term view) . So even without any future growth you buy the company for less than its asset value... Also Shinoken is not the typical REIT company. It has spawned different stuff, like life insurance, services per app , customer services like managing contracts . Those "managed services" already make 50% of their profit and has even increased during Covid. This is the future of the company.

And i did not even include their expansion programs in Indonesia ( the first official foreigner REIT )

So it is the typical Pabrai move. You have nearly no downside but high potential upside through this "REaaS = Real Estate as a Service" and expansion program. And you have this spawning potential like they have done over the last years.  Look at their 30 years history: https://www.shinoken.co.jp/en/about/history/

Thanks. I think it may be higher quality than most of the typical japanese value traps. However, its not rare to find solid businesses trading below book in Japan. I guess I was trying to figure out why this one has caught on all of a sudden. Jeremy is a really smart guy who I respect. He's also fluent in Japanese, so I trust him more than myself on this haha.
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: RetroRanger on February 23, 2021, 10:24:54 PM
"I guess I was trying to figure out why this one has caught on all of a sudden. Jeremy is a really smart guy who I respect. He's also fluent in Japanese, so I trust him more than myself on this haha."

From what i found out from other japanese investors via twitter...  locals are very "careful" about this one since the Loan Scandals of "Tateru" , "Suruga" , "Leopalace".
That would be one explanation.  But i guess the most compelling difference for me is simply the REaaS = Real Estate as a Service.
They dont rely purely on real estate building/selling anymore.

Shinoken is a company that is 30 years old, survived the real estate crisis/bubble in Japan and is ( thats what it looks like ) able to transform their business model into something more crisis stable.
And thats really working out. Also you have to look closely to Indonesia.. Its important that the model works their too. If so, you have an additional catalysator for healthy growth in the next 10-15 years. If you read through their long term vision, they are planing to do this in more and more external locations.


The biggest risk is, that the undervaluation is never really "seen" by the market or the trust of people is broken for those kind of companies ( like with the telekom stocks back than in Germany).
Another risk is, that the company does not act in a gaijin friendly shareholder perspective...  But the management Team "delievered" the last 15-20 years.

But Pabrai owns nearly 7% of the company. So i guess he even has some more insights we dont see or get.

Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: zuminsan on February 24, 2021, 12:29:04 PM
Hey there,
First time getting involve in the forum and love the back and forth on the story!
Just a personal income, they were not quite as friendly as I thought even, I actually try calling their headquarter and try to speak to someone at the IR department, they donít have a separate number for people who speak English even though the PowerPoint slide indicated to call. When I finally transfer over to someone who speaks English, they took down my name and promised someone will call back. Unfortunately, all I got was a email and telling me to schedule meeting through brokerage.

Not quite sure what they mean by silent period. Maybe they assume that I was gonna ask about their earning before they release it, I donít know. I thought it was pretty interesting and wanna share it with everyone.
 

_______


Hi,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I'm afraid we are currently in our silent period prior to our
disclosure (FY 2020 results) on February 12.

If you wish for a conference call after that as an institutional investor,
please provide the background information of
your company or that of your partnership fund.
And kindly request through a stock broker company to arrange it.

As for our company information,
Please refer to our material we have on our website.
https://www.shinoken.co.jp/press_ens/get_img/181/file1_path
(If you already have, my apologies..)

Thank you so much and best regards,
Yuki Otowa
Shinoken Group
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: RetroRanger on February 24, 2021, 01:45:44 PM
From what i know this is practicle behaviour. Meeting/Calls will only be hold/scheduled during specific times.

I guess if you were a fund with 1.000.000 shares it would be different.

Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: RetroRanger on February 26, 2021, 02:56:47 AM
New stuff from Shinoken:
https://www.shinoken.co.jp/press_ens/get_img/185/file1_path/20210226_185.pdf

Shinoken Office Service (Further referred to as SKO), a subsidiary of
Shinoken Group Co., Ltd. (Tokyo Headquarters: Minato-ku, Tokyo, President
Hideaki Shinohara, TSE Ticker 8909, further referred to as Shinoken, including
the whole group) has acquired all shares and subsidiarized Computer
System Co., Ltd. (Headquarters: Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo, CEO Keiichi Tamura,
further referred to as CSC) as of today, February 26th, 2021. SKO initiates
information system and shared services of administration operations, and
CSC is a software developer.

So an aquisition for their internal digital transformation they need to improve in order to make Reit as a service work in the future :)
Title: Re: 8909 - Shinoken Group Co
Post by: zuminsan on March 01, 2021, 01:24:42 PM
Thanks for the new stuff