Author Topic: FELP - Foresight Energy  (Read 299184 times)

BG2008

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2016, 04:16:24 PM »
Just to make this thread more entertaining, Chris Cline was dating Tiger Wood's ex wife.  We can all learn something from "Maximizing value" and "top ticking" from Elin Nordegren.  She walked away from Tiger with $100mm and she parted way with Chris Cline just as the coal market started to tank.  Smart gal! 

http://pagesix.com/2013/03/12/exclusive-tigers-ex-elin-nordegren-dating-billionaire-coal-magnate/



Picasso

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2016, 04:55:13 PM »
Yep, I thought about the Oaktree's of the world being in the debt as an issue.  I didn't see anything there that worried me, Blue Mountain is maybe the worst of the bunch but not aggressive loan to own guys.  DDJ clearly isn't. 

About 34% of the debt is held by pension plans or vanilla funds.  See attached.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 05:05:25 PM by Picasso »

roark33

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2016, 07:50:33 PM »


Door #3:  Nobody wants to give in and it gets thrown into bankruptcy anyway.  Cline doesn't want to make another billion dollars and thinks the billion he has is good enough.  Murray takes the last of his net worth and hires a hit man to take out Cline for being such a dick.

A lot can happen here, but door #1 seems most likely to me.

Picasso--if this files and the equity gets wiped out, I just want to let you know that you don't have to make it back the way you lost it, in other words, don't take the call from Murray for the Door #3 option...

Picasso

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2016, 10:31:35 PM »


Door #3:  Nobody wants to give in and it gets thrown into bankruptcy anyway.  Cline doesn't want to make another billion dollars and thinks the billion he has is good enough.  Murray takes the last of his net worth and hires a hit man to take out Cline for being such a dick.

A lot can happen here, but door #1 seems most likely to me.

Picasso--if this files and the equity gets wiped out, I just want to let you know that you don't have to make it back the way you lost it, in other words, don't take the call from Murray for the Door #3 option...

I imagine if this files the negotiations turned out a bit like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9CQscwXBt0

PullTheTrigger

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2016, 06:37:15 AM »
Quote
Door #1:  Cline can just come in and settle, make himself several hundreds of millions, the bond holders make their 30-40%, Murray lives to fight another day, and FELP shareholders get to see a 5 bagger from current levels.  It's not a $20 stock anymore but $5 is a lot better than $0.

Door #2:  Cline decides to take up sky diving this weekend and the parachute doesn't open on his first dive.  Bob Murray walks down into the various mines and lights them on fire.  The bond holders and banks get thrown into a nasty fight over what can be sold and what will be left and there will be no one to run Foresight during one of the most difficult environments for any coal business.

Door #3:  Nobody wants to give in and it gets thrown into bankruptcy anyway.  Cline doesn't want to make another billion dollars and thinks the billion he has is good enough.  Murray takes the last of his net worth and hires a hit man to take out Cline for being such a dick.

Let me ask a couple more questions.

1. Cline has the cash to come in and settle, but is Murray in any type of similar situation? Could he come in with some type of settlement himself or is too late to raise that amount of cash? I'm not sure about his company and ability to raise cash.
2. I understand you're reasoning on the upside for Cline to settle, but what is the downside? I mean he could presumably just walk and lose his 30%, which is peanuts compared to the cash Murray just paid him. Is it worth the headache to settle? Is there a chance of losing more money if he settles? There is a lot of cash flow here, so the downside seems limited.

I look at the industry and regulations and like BG2008 says, it's a slowly melting ice cube and it would seem FELP is in a good position given it's low cost coal, but are there some political risks here as well? If a Democrat wins the White House, the EPA regulations will likely be continued or accelerated. If it's a Republican, will they try to roll back some of the coal regulations?

I realize this is coin toss, but it does seem like the coin is slightly weighted to settle.

Thanks for the interesting thread! I've learned a ton.

Picasso

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2016, 09:35:05 AM »
Let me ask a couple more questions.

1. Cline has the cash to come in and settle, but is Murray in any type of similar situation? Could he come in with some type of settlement himself or is too late to raise that amount of cash? I'm not sure about his company and ability to raise cash.
2. I understand you're reasoning on the upside for Cline to settle, but what is the downside? I mean he could presumably just walk and lose his 30%, which is peanuts compared to the cash Murray just paid him. Is it worth the headache to settle? Is there a chance of losing more money if he settles? There is a lot of cash flow here, so the downside seems limited.

I look at the industry and regulations and like BG2008 says, it's a slowly melting ice cube and it would seem FELP is in a good position given it's low cost coal, but are there some political risks here as well? If a Democrat wins the White House, the EPA regulations will likely be continued or accelerated. If it's a Republican, will they try to roll back some of the coal regulations?

I realize this is coin toss, but it does seem like the coin is slightly weighted to settle.

Thanks for the interesting thread! I've learned a ton.

1) I don't think Murray has a lot of options to come in and help refund payment on the $606 million.  Murray Energy bonds have collapsed to $10 and it was very difficult to get the bonds to market when they acquired FELP in the first place.  That said, Bob Murray is an interesting guy and he might be able to chip in something.  Most of this is in Chris Cline's hands because he can fund everything on his own.

2a) On the downside, he loses over $50 million per year in distributions from FELP and SXCP.  He also loses a few hundred million on FELP and SXCP.  He might only lose $90 million on current market values for FELP and SXCP but I don't think he considers $1 for FELP as the real intrinsic value.  Last year FELP generated $136 million of DCF against a current market cap of $142 million.  What multiple do you give a coal business that can still turn significant positive cash flow at depression like conditions near the bottom of the cycle?  He's going to be giving that up.

2b) If he comes in with a bunch of new equity then I think you can make the argument he has capital at risk again.  I think if he came in with second lien 10% debt he would protect himself against a loss in equity value, being fulcrum in the case it enters bankruptcy in the future anyway, and there would still be over $120 million of 2015 DCF against a $142 million market cap. 

2c) Just for arguments sake, if he thought all equity was the best couse of action from a downside risk perspective (not sure why), you would end up with around $253 million of DCF on a $748 million market cap.  That's a lot of cash generation for Cline but it would bankrupt Murray.

2d) So it seems worth the headache to settle.  Unless he doesn't want to be in the coal business anymore.  His public comments certainly don't appear that to be the case.

I don't know how to handicap the political risks.  I think there's going to be a certain amount of diversification among sources of energy generation for various reasons and coal will be one of them.  But that's not why the stock is at $1, although it may be something Cline is considering when investing in the debt/equity at the current stage of the coal cycle.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 09:46:04 AM by Picasso »

PullTheTrigger

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2016, 10:55:10 AM »
Thank you for your generous time answering my questions!

BG2008

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2016, 01:49:17 PM »
Any idea what price the 7.875 bonds are currently trading at?  The most recent price according to the Finra website was from November 2015.  A lot could've changed since then. 

BG2008

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2016, 02:16:09 PM »
Picasso,

A simple clarification.  Do we know what the bond holders and FELP are currently negotiating over?  Are there rumor mills, NY Post etc articles about sticking points in negotiation etc?  You're suggesting that Cline comes in and pays cash for new equity/2nd lien debt?  I'm assuming that's what you're talking about all along.  Do we need to worry about the company being in default after the bonds are taken care of.  Put another way, does the current level of performance triggers defaults in more senior portion of the debt structure?  How do you envision that being taken care of?

Thanks

Picasso

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Re: FELP - Foresight Energy
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2016, 02:55:31 PM »
Any idea what price the 7.875 bonds are currently trading at?  The most recent price according to the Finra website was from November 2015.  A lot could've changed since then.

I attached the last few months.