Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 11:59:30 AM

Title: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 11:59:30 AM
What’s happening right now in DC is sedition pure and simple by a bunch of sore losers.

These are not patriots, but the opposite.

Egged on on a President who has shown repeated unfitness for office.

An utter disgrace.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 06, 2021, 12:15:49 PM
Republican legislators are calling this a coup attempt. Anyone who said that we didn't have to worry about a coup attempt has finally been proven wrong.

People are going to die over this. Probably more likely protestors than anyone else. There are reports of gunfire, and pipe bombs. I saw video of people being taken out in ambulances on stretchers.

Plus with COVID, it is likely that police and especially older members of government and staffers may die from this chaos and the need to seek shelter in cramped spaces.

Plus this will be all sorts of risks for the police and other security agencies.

The "law and order President" has just given the USA it's first coup.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 12:18:39 PM
“Just like any other President” “both sides” amirite?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 12:20:06 PM
LOL, now we care of law and order! What was the term? Peaceful protesters right? Oh yea, "largely" peaceful protesters. You earned it DC. Its amazing how much the "concern" swings depending upon which side is doing it.


Cant wait for the coup in which the new president takes office on the same date as all the prior ones did...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 06, 2021, 12:20:24 PM
Short term downside but long term upside as Trump utterly destroys himself.
He and his clan are likely done with politics; if not forever then at least for a long time.

Senators should be sharpening their proverbial knives now.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 12:22:11 PM
LOL, now we care of law and order! What was the term? Peaceful protesters right? Oh yea, "largely" peaceful protesters. You earned it DC. Its amazing how much the "concern" swings depending upon which side is doing it.


Cant wait for the coup in which the new president takes office on the same date as all the prior ones did...

Yes, this is exactly the same as BLM protestors on the streets...

Imagine the whining if they stormed the Capitol and forced Congress to bounce.

Guess you don’t mind a banana republic.

Love the logic of “if it didn’t happen, there was no risk”.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 12:23:57 PM
Eh, its only in DC. A worthy protest site. Not every big city in the county.

Ive got a dinner meeting in the NYC tonight...will let you know how many MAGA folks are burning down buildings. Hopefully my Lexus avoids the Air Jordan Bicycle Gang.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 12:24:52 PM
Eh, its only in DC. A worthy protest site. Not every big city in the county.

Ive got a dinner meeting in the NYC tonight...will let you know how many MAGA folks are burning down buildings. Hopefully my Lexus avoids the Air Jordan Bicycle Gang.

NYC? I thought you deemed it a crime ridden BLM infested, De Blasio run hellhole. Be careful !
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 06, 2021, 12:24:55 PM
Or if you know more recent history, this is the equivalent of Hitler‘s 1923 Beer Hall Putsch.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: LC on January 06, 2021, 12:27:53 PM
Sad day indeed. 20 years for all of them, I hope.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 12:28:43 PM
I leveraged my portfolio 10 to 1 last year and nothing bad happened.

Clearly anyone who warned me about the dangers was a dunce.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: gary17 on January 06, 2021, 12:35:47 PM
Xi, Putin, and Kim must be staying up watching this with popcorn.....
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 06, 2021, 12:36:59 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the failure of the two party system.

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 12:37:33 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the failure of the two party system.

Lol. Classic castanza. “Buh buh buh both sides”!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 12:38:40 PM
I leveraged my portfolio 10 to 1 last year and nothing bad happened.

Clearly anyone who warned me about the dangers was a dunce.

+17% for the index is pretty dangerous man. Be careful.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 12:39:38 PM
I leveraged my portfolio 10 to 1 last year and nothing bad happened.

Clearly anyone who warned me about the dangers was a dunce.

+17% for the index is pretty dangerous man. Be careful.

+170% with 10x leverage. Nothing can go wrong, me no worry about tail risks bc they r not real amirite Lehman bros?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 12:44:14 PM
It only goes wrong if you get it wrong. Everyone is accountable to the market.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 06, 2021, 12:44:26 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the failure of the two party system.

Lol. Classic castanza. “Buh buh buh both sides”!

These are for you. I'm sure that pair you've been wearing is getting quite worn.

https://www.horseloverz.com/english-horse-tack/horse-harness/tough-1-replacement-harness-blinders?mr:trackingCode=84002CD3-2C06-EA11-8106-00505694403D&mr:referralID=NA
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 12:46:07 PM
Short term downside but long term upside as Trump utterly destroys himself.
He and his clan are likely done with politics; if not forever then at least for a long time.

Senators should be sharpening their proverbial knives now.

Do you actually think this guy with 70M+ votes isn't going to dictate Republican politics for the next 20 years?  He, his children, their cronies, their media partners...they are just starting.  His children are as vindictive as he is, and they are going to destroy the Republican party and start their own. 

Charlie Munger was right a decade ago when said that while America will remain powerful, the peak of American power has peaked...I'm paraphrasing.  This is what the decay of American power looks like and will resonate for decades going forward with those countries who have long been waiting for this...Russia, China, Middle-East, North Korea, Cuba...they've been waiting for this.  Trump and his supporters are handing it to them on a silver platter! 

One of the most embarrassing days for the United States in the last 100 years!  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 12:48:14 PM
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1346904110969315332

Welp, looks like he denounced it! Not his fault! Aint that how this works?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 12:51:34 PM
Anyone here who still thinks the US doesn't look like a third world banana republic? Riots in the capitol as the President stands by watching.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 12:52:57 PM
Anyone here who still thinks the US doesn't look like a third world banana republic? Riots in the capitol as the President stands by watching.

This isnt the first day of riots in DC champ...but again, exhibit A...when one side does it.....
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 12:55:23 PM
So you agree.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 12:57:12 PM
LOL, now we care of law and order! What was the term? Peaceful protesters right? Oh yea, "largely" peaceful protesters. You earned it DC. Its amazing how much the "concern" swings depending upon which side is doing it.


Cant wait for the coup in which the new president takes office on the same date as all the prior ones did...

+1 Such Hypocrites Greg!  Give the boys a break - the DC Swamp is having a very bad day!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 12:58:50 PM
Yes this is just like other DC protests. Did Daddy give you your goodboy points for sticking with him through all these years?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 01:00:20 PM
I leave the floor to Trump bootlickers...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 01:01:45 PM
Sad day indeed. 20 years for all of them, I hope.

Sad day? Sad Day???

Are you for REAL dude???

Where you during the riots and burning engineered by BLM/Antifa and PROTECTED by the Democrats?

What a fucking joke!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 01:02:41 PM
LOL, now we care of law and order! What was the term? Peaceful protesters right? Oh yea, "largely" peaceful protesters. You earned it DC. Its amazing how much the "concern" swings depending upon which side is doing it.


Cant wait for the coup in which the new president takes office on the same date as all the prior ones did...

+1 Such Hypocrites Greg!  Give the boys a break - the DC Swamp is having a very bad day!

I heard poor AOC from the hood soiled her Louis Vuitton undies...gonna have to hit the tax payer up for some new ones.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 01:03:49 PM

One of the most embarrassing days for the United States in the last 100 years!  Cheers!

Yeah RIGHT Parsad - unless of course you don't count every day last summer!!

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Mephistopheles on January 06, 2021, 01:23:57 PM
The violent protestors on BOTH sides are bat shit crazy - BLM, antifa, MAGA folks, all scum of the earth.
Difference is that the ones on the far left don't have a President (or President elect) egging them on for years and especially in the past few months. I know none of this will resonate to the cultists on this thread but its important to point out.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 01:37:37 PM
^ It's important to point out that worthless President Elect and then Candidate Joe Biden and faker Komrade Kamala, last summer NEVER ONCE
condemn the summer of violence, looting, arson in our wonderful cities - NOT ONCE.

NOT ONE WORD at the Democratic National Convention about the terrible summer of violence. NOT ONE.

They did however - arrange bail for the thugs and criminals involved.

That is the difference - don't be a hypocrite.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 06, 2021, 01:41:22 PM
The violent protestors on BOTH sides are bat shit crazy - BLM, antifa, MAGA folks, all scum of the earth.
Difference is that the ones on the far left don't have a President (or President elect) egging them on for years and especially in the past few months. I know none of this will resonate to the cultists on this thread but its important to point out.
Amen, brother.

Or, I guess I'm supposed to say "Awoman, sibling."

Is it too late to place bets on President Pelosi?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 06, 2021, 01:42:01 PM
Short term downside but long term upside as Trump utterly destroys himself.
He and his clan are likely done with politics; if not forever then at least for a long time.

Senators should be sharpening their proverbial knives now.

Do you actually think this guy with 70M+ votes isn't going to dictate Republican politics for the next 20 years?  He, his children, their cronies, their media partners...they are just starting.  His children are as vindictive as he is, and they are going to destroy the Republican party and start their own. 

Charlie Munger was right a decade ago when said that while America will remain powerful, the peak of American power has peaked...I'm paraphrasing.  This is what the decay of American power looks like and will resonate for decades going forward with those countries who have long been waiting for this...Russia, China, Middle-East, North Korea, Cuba...they've been waiting for this.  Trump and his supporters are handing it to them on a silver platter! 

One of the most embarrassing days for the United States in the last 100 years!  Cheers!

Parsad, i am with Spek on this one. Trump made poor decisions and handed Democrats the White House. He continued with the poor decisions and handed the Democrats the senate (how it looks today). He is now ripping the Republican party apart.

My guess is the Republican establishment is in the process of figuring out how to get rid of Trump. It will likely take some time.

Trump has benefitted greatly from the protection being President affords. Some of it is legal. Some of it is moral (many Americans are very patriotic - and will support a sitting President through thick and thin).

However, once Trump is an ordinary citizen both the legal and moral protection will be gone. He will be judged more like a regular citizen. And he will face more severe consequences if he continues to say and do stupid things.

Now i do expect that a certain subset of the population will continue to support Trump, perhaps elevating him to god like status... donate vast sums to the cause... build churches in his name... a big portrait in every home (statues for the larger donors)... with frequent sermons from the book of Trump... lots of talk about devils (anyone who does not worship)...

But my guess is this group of close followers will be the problem of the Republican party not the Democratic party. It looks to me like there is a good chance the Republican party will splinter. This has happened to the right in Canada both federally and provincially and all it does is set the party back 10-15 years - and hand power to the opposite party for an extended period.

Trump is the gift that keeps giving to Democrats... and based on what we are seeing today he is not done giving :-)
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 06, 2021, 01:43:05 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the failure of the two party system.

Lol. Classic castanza. “Buh buh buh both sides”!

I think the behavior is abhorrent. I think Trump lost and should leave office. Whatever evidence of voter fraud is insignificant enough to not change the election. I was satisfied with the outcome of the investigations.

Massie had a good tweet today "Cold Hard Facts"
1.) If every Republican votes to disallow every Biden elector on Jan 6th, Biden will still win based on simple math.
2.) No state has sent a competing set of electors. No state legislature has asked congress to reject it's electors.
3.) Trumps new AG isn't investigating anything

I think the handful of Republicans who encouraged this should be prosecuted. I think the Democrats who encouraged/turned a blind eye to Antifa and other groups should also be prosecuted. The fact that you can look at this and see the country divided 50/50 while only putting blame on one side is simply amazing. This isn't a movement that happened over 4 years with Chief Orange Man Bad in office. This has been in the works for a long time. Trump (with this personality and loud mouth) was the match.

This absolutely is a two party system failure. Anytime you establish two group and force individuals to take hard stance that eventually get to "all or nothing" or "fundamental level" changes you will have issues. There is NO middle ground available for 99% of America. It's accept this or that extreme outcome.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 01:46:06 PM
Rioting over the illusion that the election was ‘stolen” and a couple of right wingers here think this is quite okay. They make excuses for the rioting and in essence condone it. And then they maintain that the US doesn’t look like a third world country.  What a sad and embarrassing situation for the United States.

It will be very difficult to for the US to try and lecture other countries about democracy.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 06, 2021, 01:53:22 PM
iTs ONly MaGA haTs. Never mind all the retweets of social media posts where Antifa leaders were telling their “comrades” to wear MAGA gear. Or the guy who showed up in a Buffalo hide with a spear and stood at the podium.


(https://twitter.com/mythreesons10/status/1346935412992839680?s=21)
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 01:53:51 PM
^ I have agreed with you that the US is now a third world country. Now to be ruled by crooked politicians in the DC Swamp.
Elections are now rigged. Brownshirt organizations, such as BLM and Antifa, are employed by 1 party to generate civil unrest.
The backers of those Brownshirts, allow the destruction of private property, and the occupation of Federal Property.

There is NO CRITICISM from this party.

Instead we are fed total GARBAGE like "Summer of Love", "Peaceful Protests", "Reparations" - and propaganda like this.

I fail to see our disconnect CW.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 06, 2021, 01:56:46 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the failure of the two party system.

Lol. Classic castanza. “Buh buh buh both sides”!

I think the behavior is abhorrent. I think Trump lost and should leave office. Whatever evidence of voter fraud is insignificant enough to not change the election. I was satisfied with the outcome of the investigations.

Massie had a good tweet today "Cold Hard Facts"
1.) If every Republican votes to disallow every Biden elector on Jan 6th, Biden will still win based on simple math.
2.) No state has sent a competing set of electors. No state legislature has asked congress to reject it's electors.
3.) Trumps new AG isn't investigating anything

I think the handful of Republicans who encouraged this should be prosecuted. I think the Democrats who encouraged/turned a blind eye to Antifa and other groups should also be prosecuted. The fact that you can look at this and see the country divided 50/50 while only putting blame on one side is simply amazing. This isn't a movement that happened over 4 years with Chief Orange Man Bad in office. This has been in the works for a long time. Trump (with this personality and loud mouth) was the match.

This absolutely is a two party system failure. Anytime you establish two group and force individuals to take hard stance that eventually get to "all or nothing" or "fundamental level" changes you will have issues. There is NO middle ground available for 99% of America. It's accept this or that extreme outcome.

Castanza, my view is slightly different. The 2 party system is the symptom. The core problem is people are not holding politicians accountable. People celebrate unethical behaviour. They celebrate politicians who lie. They celebrate politicians who are viciously flawed. Like i say to my kids... if you don’t like something in your life to fix it the best place to start is to look in the mirror.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 01:57:05 PM
^ It's important to point out that worthless President Elect and then Candidate Joe Biden and faker Komrade Kamala, last summer NEVER ONCE
condemn the summer of violence, looting, arson in our wonderful cities - NOT ONCE.

NOT ONE WORD at the Democratic National Convention about the terrible summer of violence. NOT ONE.

They did however - arrange bail for the thugs and criminals involved.

That is the difference - don't be a hypocrite.

Big fucking difference between attacking Senators, Congressmen, the Speaker of the House and the VP of the United States than simply rioting in the streets.  Even you can tell the difference, can't you?  Or are you too far gone and this is just tit for tat?  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 01:58:57 PM
Personally, I spoke out about riots and violence for most of 2020. It was not taken seriously. Since this is only day one, I think many would benefit if this continued for another 2-3 months. They deserve their discomfort. They really need to get the message. Violence and rioting is not ok. Unfortunately I dont think that will happened because the guy Trump condemned it on Twitter and sent in the National Guard on day 1. What a chump!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 02:00:52 PM
^ It's important to point out that worthless President Elect and then Candidate Joe Biden and faker Komrade Kamala, last summer NEVER ONCE
condemn the summer of violence, looting, arson in our wonderful cities - NOT ONCE.

NOT ONE WORD at the Democratic National Convention about the terrible summer of violence. NOT ONE.

They did however - arrange bail for the thugs and criminals involved.

That is the difference - don't be a hypocrite.

Big fucking difference between attacking Senators, Congressmen, the Speaker of the House and the VP of the United States than simply rioting in the streets.  Even you can tell the difference, can't you?  Or are you too far gone and this is just tit for tat?  Cheers!

^ Typical elitist view:  "I'm more important than you"

Mayor Lori Lightfoot of Chicago - protects her home from protestors, yet allows every one else's property to burn to the ground and be looted.
After all, they were due reparations and needed to blow off steam.

Nothing like 2 tier system of justice, is there Parsad?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 02:01:29 PM
^ It's important to point out that worthless President Elect and then Candidate Joe Biden and faker Komrade Kamala, last summer NEVER ONCE
condemn the summer of violence, looting, arson in our wonderful cities - NOT ONCE.

NOT ONE WORD at the Democratic National Convention about the terrible summer of violence. NOT ONE.

They did however - arrange bail for the thugs and criminals involved.

That is the difference - don't be a hypocrite.

Big fucking difference between attacking Senators, Congressmen, the Speaker of the House and the VP of the United States than simply rioting in the streets.  Even you can tell the difference, can't you?  Or are you too far gone and this is just tit for tat?  Cheers!

Let me guess, they are more important than regular people? I haven't quite kept up with the way you guys rank lives. All lives dont matter, but black lives do. Where do politicians fit in? Probably above all and below black? Just guessing, I really dont know. I personally just view a life as a life.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 02:01:41 PM
"Elections are now rigged."

Cubs that is just plain delusional. THERE IS NO PROOF, NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE that there was any mgnitude of voter fraud. How come sixty (60) cases were thrown out of court? Give it up man!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 02:03:37 PM
Why are some people here still condoning and making excuses for this insurrection? Sad.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 02:05:41 PM
"Elections are now rigged."

Cubs that is just plain delusional. THERE IS NO PROOF, NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE that there was any mgnitude of voter fraud. How come sixty (60) cases were thrown out of court? Give it up man!

You need to convince 70M+ citizens of this country, CW, not me.  You got your work cut out for you bro.

They saw it with their own eyes*, they lived it - and they are MAD.

Sorry you can't handle the truth CW.


*(thank you JRM, Value^2, etc for those valuable links)
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 02:08:17 PM
Then why hasn't it been presented in court? Don't be a pawn, think for yourself. Believe in your justice system.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: no_free_lunch on January 06, 2021, 02:09:33 PM
Just like BLM and antifa believes in the justice system?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 02:10:29 PM
Then why hasn't it been presented in court? Don't be a pawn, think for yourself. Believe in your justice system.

I would be a fool if I did. I never believed the Russian Hoax, The Ukrainian Hoax, -- it served me very well.

You, unfortunately, are still licking your wounds from those.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: no_free_lunch on January 06, 2021, 02:11:18 PM
I don't think violence is the way to go but I can see why people care upset. The left paved the way, set the precedent for this.  You guys never accepted or supported trump either.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 02:12:54 PM
Just like BLM and antifa believes in the justice system?

Oh so you now you condone this by using BLM and antifa as you criteria of responsible behaviour?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 06, 2021, 02:16:02 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the failure of the two party system.

Lol. Classic castanza. “Buh buh buh both sides”!

I think the behavior is abhorrent. I think Trump lost and should leave office. Whatever evidence of voter fraud is insignificant enough to not change the election. I was satisfied with the outcome of the investigations.

Massie had a good tweet today "Cold Hard Facts"
1.) If every Republican votes to disallow every Biden elector on Jan 6th, Biden will still win based on simple math.
2.) No state has sent a competing set of electors. No state legislature has asked congress to reject it's electors.
3.) Trumps new AG isn't investigating anything

I think the handful of Republicans who encouraged this should be prosecuted. I think the Democrats who encouraged/turned a blind eye to Antifa and other groups should also be prosecuted. The fact that you can look at this and see the country divided 50/50 while only putting blame on one side is simply amazing. This isn't a movement that happened over 4 years with Chief Orange Man Bad in office. This has been in the works for a long time. Trump (with this personality and loud mouth) was the match.

This absolutely is a two party system failure. Anytime you establish two group and force individuals to take hard stance that eventually get to "all or nothing" or "fundamental level" changes you will have issues. There is NO middle ground available for 99% of America. It's accept this or that extreme outcome.

Castanza, my view is slightly different. The 2 party system is the symptom. The core problem is people are not holding politicians accountable. People celebrate unethical behaviour. They celebrate politicians who lie. They celebrate politicians who are viciously flawed. Like i say to my kids... if you don’t like something in your life to fix it the best place to start is to look in the mirror.

It’s a respectable view. And I agree to an extent. Sort of a chicken and egg thing. But to go one step further, we wouldn’t need to hold politicians as accountable if we gave them less power and influence. This is why (at least to me) the political response of more government power to combat poor government driven outcomes is mind boggling. All it does is allow lobbyist, greed, and corruption to permeate more easily.

Humans are flawed. Any system that allows our flaws to affect the most people is failed from the beginning.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 02:16:53 PM
Just like BLM and antifa believes in the justice system?

Oh so you now you condone this by using BLM and antifa as you criteria of responsible behaviour?

Some of us spoke out and condemned violence and rioting all last year. Thankfully we have a president who is condemning this on day one.

https://nypost.com/2021/01/06/trump-releases-statement-telling-supporters-in-dc-to-go-home/
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 02:19:47 PM
I don't think violence is the way to go but I can see why people care upset. The left paved the way, set the precedent for this.  You guys never accepted or supported trump either.

That nets it out very well.

And, of course, the BLM/Antifa organizations provide the direct funding to the Democratic Party.
Hence, complete silence by the Cheat-to-Win Democratic Party on BLM/Antifa destructive behavior.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 02:20:37 PM
Just like BLM and antifa believes in the justice system?

Oh so you now you condone this by using BLM and antifa as you criteria of responsible behaviour?

Some of us spoke out and condemned violence and rioting all last year. Thankfully we have a president who is condemning this on day one.

https://nypost.com/2021/01/06/trump-releases-statement-telling-supporters-in-dc-to-go-home/

He did it after his own vice-president condemned what was happening, while Trump sat on his orange ass loving every moment from his office!  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 02:22:53 PM
Just like BLM and antifa believes in the justice system?

Oh so you now you condone this by using BLM and antifa as you criteria of responsible behaviour?

Some of us spoke out and condemned violence and rioting all last year. Thankfully we have a president who is condemning this on day one.

https://nypost.com/2021/01/06/trump-releases-statement-telling-supporters-in-dc-to-go-home/

You have got to be kidding!

Trump took to TV to essentially make a promo for his "the election was stolen" bull sh*t. 

And FYI four years ago I said here that protestors needed to stop rioting and give Trump six months to see how he would do as President.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 02:24:39 PM
^ It's important to point out that worthless President Elect and then Candidate Joe Biden and faker Komrade Kamala, last summer NEVER ONCE
condemn the summer of violence, looting, arson in our wonderful cities - NOT ONCE.

NOT ONE WORD at the Democratic National Convention about the terrible summer of violence. NOT ONE.

They did however - arrange bail for the thugs and criminals involved.

That is the difference - don't be a hypocrite.

Big fucking difference between attacking Senators, Congressmen, the Speaker of the House and the VP of the United States than simply rioting in the streets.  Even you can tell the difference, can't you?  Or are you too far gone and this is just tit for tat?  Cheers!

^ Typical elitist view:  "I'm more important than you"

Mayor Lori Lightfoot of Chicago - protects her home from protestors, yet allows every one else's property to burn to the ground and be looted.
After all, they were due reparations and needed to blow off steam.

Nothing like 2 tier system of justice, is there Parsad?

Nothing to do with an elitist view...they are attacking the seat of democracy in the United States...undermining their own government!  Can't you get that through your thick, occluded skull?

^ It's important to point out that worthless President Elect and then Candidate Joe Biden and faker Komrade Kamala, last summer NEVER ONCE
condemn the summer of violence, looting, arson in our wonderful cities - NOT ONCE.

NOT ONE WORD at the Democratic National Convention about the terrible summer of violence. NOT ONE.

They did however - arrange bail for the thugs and criminals involved.

That is the difference - don't be a hypocrite.

Big fucking difference between attacking Senators, Congressmen, the Speaker of the House and the VP of the United States than simply rioting in the streets.  Even you can tell the difference, can't you?  Or are you too far gone and this is just tit for tat? 

Let me guess, they are more important than regular people? I haven't quite kept up with the way you guys rank lives. All lives dont matter, but black lives do. Where do politicians fit in? Probably above all and below black? Just guessing, I really dont know. I personally just view a life as a life.

Again, they are attacking the capitol building...attacking government officials...even aiming their rhetoric at their own vice-president.  Nothing to do with regular people...they are undermining their own government.  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 02:33:38 PM
These Trump guys are just completely in denial of the significance of an attack on their own federal government. It may not mean anything to them, but it certainly does to the rest of the world.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 06, 2021, 02:39:52 PM
Here is a description of what happened today from a Republican senator. Holy shit batman!

—————————-
Live Updates: Pro-Trump Mob Breaches Capitol, Halting Vote Certification
- https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06/us/washington-dc-protests?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage&action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage#republican-senator-ben-sasse-unloads-on-trump

Senator Ben Sasse, Republican of Nebraska, was unsparing in his criticism of President Trump as the instigator of the day’s events.

“Today, the United States Capitol — the world’s greatest symbol of self-government — was ransacked while the leader of the free world cowered behind his keyboard — tweeting against his vice president for fulfilling the duties of his oath to the Constitution,” he said in a statement.

“Lies have consequences,” he continued. “This violence was the inevitable and ugly outcome of the president’s addiction to constantly stoking division.”

He added: “Americans are better than this: Americans aren’t nihilists. Americans aren’t arsonists. Americans aren’t French revolutionaries taking to the barricades.”
Title: Re: A Sad Day For Americaons
Post by: Spekulatius on January 06, 2021, 02:42:43 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the failure of the two party system.

Lol. Classic castanza. “Buh buh buh both sides”!

I think the behavior is abhorrent. I think Trump lost and should leave office. Whatever evidence of voter fraud is insignificant enough to not change the election. I was satisfied with the outcome of the investigations.

Massie had a good tweet today "Cold Hard Facts"
1.) If every Republican votes to disallow every Biden elector on Jan 6th, Biden will still win based on simple math.
2.) No state has sent a competing set of electors. No state legislature has asked congress to reject it's electors.
3.) Trumps new AG isn't investigating anything

I think the handful of Republicans who encouraged this should be prosecuted. I think the Democrats who encouraged/turned a blind eye to Antifa and other groups should also be prosecuted. The fact that you can look at this and see the country divided 50/50 while only putting blame on one side is simply amazing. This isn't a movement that happened over 4 years with Chief Orange Man Bad in office. This has been in the works for a long time. Trump (with this personality and loud mouth) was the match.

This absolutely is a two party system failure. Anytime you establish two group and force individuals to take hard stance that eventually get to "all or nothing" or "fundamental level" changes you will have issues. There is NO middle ground available for 99% of America. It's accept this or that extreme outcome.

Castanza, my view is slightly different. The 2 party system is the symptom. The core problem is people are not holding politicians accountable. People celebrate unethical behaviour. They celebrate politicians who lie. They celebrate politicians who are viciously flawed. Like i say to my kids... if you don’t like something in your life to fix it the best place to start is to look in the mirror.

The two party system is basically forced by the constitution and the winner take all system for elections. countries that have equal representation for each vote don‘t have two party system as more than two parties can be represented in bodies the government.

So when you ask for abolishment of the two party system, you are basically asking for a significant change in the Constitution.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: drzola on January 06, 2021, 02:47:42 PM
Just Napalm  the capital tonight with qty one f35  and wallah,  a generation of shat-show completed maybe eh!  lol????
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 02:49:43 PM
Here is a description of what happened today from a Republican senator. Holy shit batman!

—————————-
Live Updates: Pro-Trump Mob Breaches Capitol, Halting Vote Certification
- https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06/us/washington-dc-protests?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage&action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage#republican-senator-ben-sasse-unloads-on-trump

Senator Ben Sasse, Republican of Nebraska, was unsparing in his criticism of President Trump as the instigator of the day’s events.

“Today, the United States Capitol — the world’s greatest symbol of self-government — was ransacked while the leader of the free world cowered behind his keyboard — tweeting against his vice president for fulfilling the duties of his oath to the Constitution,” he said in a statement.

“Lies have consequences,” he continued. “This violence was the inevitable and ugly outcome of the president’s addiction to constantly stoking division.”

He added: “Americans are better than this: Americans aren’t nihilists. Americans aren’t arsonists. Americans aren’t French revolutionaries taking to the barricades.”

Eloquently stated...but just common sense.  Six years ago, this was a joke...then four years ago it became a reality show...two years ago it became shameful and ridiculous...today it has become essentially a coup and stain on American democracy.  No one took this seriously and now it could become a crisis of epic proportions.  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: drzola on January 06, 2021, 02:54:41 PM
I am still pissed American's beat Team Canada in hockey again that's all. More fierce competitor's scale-wise I spose eh!
Who knows.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 02:55:53 PM
A crisis of epic proportions! LOL this has been awesomely amusing for sure. Imagine if folks started taking riots and angry protesters serious 6 months ago? America would look like Zimbabwe or something.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 02:57:32 PM
Here is a description of what happened today from a Republican senator. Holy shit batman!

—————————-
Live Updates: Pro-Trump Mob Breaches Capitol, Halting Vote Certification
- https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06/us/washington-dc-protests?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage&action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage#republican-senator-ben-sasse-unloads-on-trump

Senator Ben Sasse, Republican of Nebraska, was unsparing in his criticism of President Trump as the instigator of the day’s events.

“Today, the United States Capitol — the world’s greatest symbol of self-government — was ransacked while the leader of the free world cowered behind his keyboard — tweeting against his vice president for fulfilling the duties of his oath to the Constitution,” he said in a statement.

“Lies have consequences,” he continued. “This violence was the inevitable and ugly outcome of the president’s addiction to constantly stoking division.”

He added: “Americans are better than this: Americans aren’t nihilists. Americans aren’t arsonists. Americans aren’t French revolutionaries taking to the barricades.”

Eloquently stated...but just common sense.  Six years ago, this was a joke...then four years ago it became a reality show...two years ago it became shameful and ridiculous...today it has become essentially a coup and stain on American democracy.  No one took this seriously and now it could become a crisis of epic proportions.  Cheers!



Some if us have been saying this for several years now only to be scoffed at by the Trumpists who still haven't figured it out.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 02:59:40 PM
A crisis of epic proportions! LOL this has been awesomely amusing for sure. Imagine if folks started taking riots and angry protesters serious 6 months ago? America would look like Zimbabwe or something.

I don't know if you understand the concept of 'credibility', but your country is losing theirs as we watch tonight. I know, I know, you don't care.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
These Trump guys are just completely in denial of the significance of an attack on their own federal government. It may not mean anything to them, but it certainly does to the rest of the world.


Try not and re-write history CW - I was HORRIFIED AND DISGUSTED all year last year. 

Meanwhile - Cheat-to-Win Democrats and DNC leadership losers Biden/Harris/Nadler/Pelosi, pretend NOTHING is happening.
All year long. It's all good. Peaceful protestors. Nothing to see here. Just blowing off steam. Reparations, blah, blah, blah.

What happened for 3-4 hours today is NOTHING compared to the travesty the Democrats perpetuated in 2020.

Alas, you and I agree - the world is watching and we are Third World.  Thanks for starting it all Barrack!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For Americaons
Post by: Castanza on January 06, 2021, 03:02:44 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the failure of the two party system.

Lol. Classic castanza. “Buh buh buh both sides”!

I think the behavior is abhorrent. I think Trump lost and should leave office. Whatever evidence of voter fraud is insignificant enough to not change the election. I was satisfied with the outcome of the investigations.

Massie had a good tweet today "Cold Hard Facts"
1.) If every Republican votes to disallow every Biden elector on Jan 6th, Biden will still win based on simple math.
2.) No state has sent a competing set of electors. No state legislature has asked congress to reject it's electors.
3.) Trumps new AG isn't investigating anything

I think the handful of Republicans who encouraged this should be prosecuted. I think the Democrats who encouraged/turned a blind eye to Antifa and other groups should also be prosecuted. The fact that you can look at this and see the country divided 50/50 while only putting blame on one side is simply amazing. This isn't a movement that happened over 4 years with Chief Orange Man Bad in office. This has been in the works for a long time. Trump (with this personality and loud mouth) was the match.

This absolutely is a two party system failure. Anytime you establish two group and force individuals to take hard stance that eventually get to "all or nothing" or "fundamental level" changes you will have issues. There is NO middle ground available for 99% of America. It's accept this or that extreme outcome.

Castanza, my view is slightly different. The 2 party system is the symptom. The core problem is people are not holding politicians accountable. People celebrate unethical behaviour. They celebrate politicians who lie. They celebrate politicians who are viciously flawed. Like i say to my kids... if you don’t like something in your life to fix it the best place to start is to look in the mirror.

The twomparty system is forced by the constitution and the winner take all system for elections. countries that have equal representation for each vote don‘t have two party system as more than two parties can be represented in bodies the government.

So when you ask for abolishment of the two party system, you are basically asking for a significant change in the Constitution.

The two party system becomes more engrained and more important with the expansion of the government at the Federal level. The stakes are higher the more powerful govt gets. Do you think this would be happening if there wasn’t the threat of sweeping changes at a federal level across the aisle? With every action there is an equal reaction.

Personally I like how the Swiss setup their version of Congress/Cabinet.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: dwy000 on January 06, 2021, 03:02:55 PM
Just like BLM and antifa believes in the justice system?

Oh so you now you condone this by using BLM and antifa as you criteria of responsible behaviour?

Some of us spoke out and condemned violence and rioting all last year. Thankfully we have a president who is condemning this on day one.

https://nypost.com/2021/01/06/trump-releases-statement-telling-supporters-in-dc-to-go-home/

Trump's video tweet telling supporters to go home has been tagged by Twitter and cannot be retweeted or replied to or liked due to a risk of violence.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 03:05:17 PM
^ Of course!!!


The Brownshirts are in charge of the Media censorship too!

Not only are we Third World - but we are full fledged Nazis!

Jack Dorsey is the new Goebbels.

Thanks for your divisive legacy Barrack - you really left your mark on the Nation!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 03:06:46 PM
"Trump's video tweet telling supporters to go home has been tagged by Twitter and cannot be retweeted or replied to or liked due to a risk of violence."

You mean the one where he rants about the "stolen' election and then mentions that people should go home and stop rioting? The one his staff had to force him to make?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 03:11:40 PM
This is probably the biggest crisis we've faced since WW2 and Hitler. I am glad Ive got a few guns.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 03:16:05 PM
Just tweeted by the twit...

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!


Time for the Twenty-fifth Amendment.

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 06, 2021, 03:17:35 PM
This is probably the biggest crisis we've faced since WW2 and Hitler. I am glad Ive got a few guns.
My grandparents had guns before WW2 and Hitler too. They didn’t help against either.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 03:20:50 PM
This is probably the biggest crisis we've faced since WW2 and Hitler. I am glad Ive got a few guns.

Your name is not McCloskey is it?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 03:23:15 PM
This is probably the biggest crisis we've faced since WW2 and Hitler. I am glad Ive got a few guns.
My grandparents had guns before WW2 and Hitler too. They didn’t help against either.

Amusing to hear people who were in an uproar when a Target got looted trying to brush today off as "no big deal"
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 03:25:33 PM
^ Sure, sure  Dalal - tell that to the 100 or so protestors and cops that were killed last year during all the Democrats "peaceful protests"
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 06, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Republican legislators are calling this a coup attempt. Anyone who said that we didn't have to worry about a coup attempt has finally been proven wrong.

People are going to die over this. Probably more likely protestors than anyone else. There are reports of gunfire, and pipe bombs. I saw video of people being taken out in ambulances on stretchers.

Plus with COVID, it is likely that police and especially older members of government and staffers may die from this chaos and the need to seek shelter in cramped spaces.

Plus this will be all sorts of risks for the police and other security agencies.

The "law and order President" has just given the USA it's first coup.
The first death has been announced. RIP poor victim of another Trump grift.

As sad as this all is, I do not think we should underestimate the probability of the following taking place:

-The joint session completes their constitutional duties as early as this evening. Process of Biden becoming the next President completed.
-25th Amendment being invoked within 24 hours
-Trump impeached within the next day or two
-Trump convicted and removed before the completion of his term

Other serious risks that currently exist is that Trump will flee the country. Impeaching, removing, and convicting Trump of sedition or some other crime and putting him behind bars, would remove the risk of him fomenting insurrection from exile or sharing the information he would take with him in his head with the enemies of the USA.

We also should consider that Giuliani, Stone and other dirty tricksters may find themselves behind bars again soon.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 03:27:05 PM
I don't remember Biden riling them up repeatedly, do you?



Also, these two things are not equivalent:

Black people killed repeatedly by cops --> people upset

Lose election fairly --> people upset
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 03:29:40 PM
Republican legislators are calling this a coup attempt. Anyone who said that we didn't have to worry about a coup attempt has finally been proven wrong.

People are going to die over this. Probably more likely protestors than anyone else. There are reports of gunfire, and pipe bombs. I saw video of people being taken out in ambulances on stretchers.

Plus with COVID, it is likely that police and especially older members of government and staffers may die from this chaos and the need to seek shelter in cramped spaces.

Plus this will be all sorts of risks for the police and other security agencies.

The "law and order President" has just given the USA it's first coup.
The first death has been announced. RIP poor victim of another Trump grift.

As sad as this all is, I do not think we should underestimate the probability of the following taking place:

-The joint session completes their constitutional duties as early as this evening. Process of Biden becoming the next President completed.
-25th Amendment being invoked within 24 hours
-Trump impeached within the next day or two
-Trump convicted and removed before the completion of his term

Other serious risks that currently exist is that Trump will flee the country. Impeaching, removing, and convicting Trump of sedition or some other crime and putting him behind bars, would remove the risk of him fomenting insurrection from exile or sharing the information he would take with him in his head with the enemies of the USA.

We also should consider that Giuliani, Stone and other dirty tricksters may find themselves behind bars again soon.

If there was any real justice in this world ...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 03:30:32 PM
I don't remember Biden riling them up repeatedly, do you?


Excellent point Dalal - where was ole Joe anyway during the "summer of love"?

Answer:  Hiding in his basement

How soon we forget.

Your leader, not mine bro.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 06, 2021, 03:32:09 PM
This is probably the biggest crisis we've faced since WW2 and Hitler. I am glad Ive got a few guns.
My grandparents had guns before WW2 and Hitler too. They didn’t help against either.

Amusing to hear people who were in an uproar when a Target got looted trying to brush today off as "no big deal"
I don’t think People realize how close we are to a Weimar Republic scenario when we led this ride a little bit further.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 03:32:25 PM
Republican legislators are calling this a coup attempt. Anyone who said that we didn't have to worry about a coup attempt has finally been proven wrong.

People are going to die over this. Probably more likely protestors than anyone else. There are reports of gunfire, and pipe bombs. I saw video of people being taken out in ambulances on stretchers.

Plus with COVID, it is likely that police and especially older members of government and staffers may die from this chaos and the need to seek shelter in cramped spaces.

Plus this will be all sorts of risks for the police and other security agencies.

The "law and order President" has just given the USA it's first coup.
The first death has been announced. RIP poor victim of another Trump grift.

As sad as this all is, I do not think we should underestimate the probability of the following taking place:

-The joint session completes their constitutional duties as early as this evening. Process of Biden becoming the next President completed.
-25th Amendment being invoked within 24 hours
-Trump impeached within the next day or two
-Trump convicted and removed before the completion of his term

Other serious risks that currently exist is that Trump will flee the country. Impeaching, removing, and convicting Trump of sedition or some other crime and putting him behind bars, would remove the risk of him fomenting insurrection from exile or sharing the information he would take with him in his head with the enemies of the USA.

We also should consider that Giuliani, Stone and other dirty tricksters may find themselves behind bars again soon.

Oh, my god, what a frickin' JOKE!

By your own standard - Cuomo and DeBlasio get the Gas Chamber for all the deaths they caused!!!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 03:34:35 PM
Cubs the only person who had to hide in the basement was Trump, your hero.

But so long as you keep ranting about the delusional “stolen, fixed, bogus election, no one is going to take you seriously. That is like trying to convince people that no one has landed on the moon, that the world is flat, that Trump won the election, ...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 06, 2021, 03:35:30 PM
Two bombs were found and defused in DC, including one in the RNC's building. It is confounding that some people in this thread fail to recognize this as an insurrection with acts of domestic terrorism that was fomented by Trump and a minority of Republicans, and that their fellow Republicans could have become victims of the insurrection or the bombers.

At a minimum, you could at least recognize that there is a serious issue of thesis creep.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 03:36:14 PM
This is probably the biggest crisis we've faced since WW2 and Hitler. I am glad Ive got a few guns.
My grandparents had guns before WW2 and Hitler too. They didn’t help against either.

Amusing to hear people who were in an uproar when a Target got looted trying to brush today off as "no big deal"
I don’t think People realize how close we are to a Weimar Republic scenario when we led this ride a little bit further.

Reading contemporaneous works from the 1920s and '30s in the part of the world shows how quickly people dismissed it all as just a passing fad and "no big deal"...

People thought that Adolf guy was just a clown who wouldn't achieve much.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 03:37:52 PM
This is probably the biggest crisis we've faced since WW2 and Hitler. I am glad Ive got a few guns.
My grandparents had guns before WW2 and Hitler too. They didn’t help against either.

Amusing to hear people who were in an uproar when a Target got looted trying to brush today off as "no big deal"
I don’t think People realize how close we are to a Weimar Republic scenario when we led this ride a little bit further.

I have come to the conclusion that Americans in general are completely ignorant of world history (and geography), which is why they run the risk of repeating it. They must not teach it in their schools and this is the price they pay.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 03:38:13 PM
I don't remember Biden riling them up repeatedly, do you?


Excellent point Dalal - where was ole Joe anyway during the "summer of love"?

Answer:  Hiding in his basement

How soon we forget.

Your leader, not mine bro.

Glad you admit "both sides" are not the same. Enjoy supporting a man who pours gasoline on fires.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For Americaons
Post by: boilermaker75 on January 06, 2021, 03:48:02 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the failure of the two party system.

Lol. Classic castanza. “Buh buh buh both sides”!

I think the behavior is abhorrent. I think Trump lost and should leave office. Whatever evidence of voter fraud is insignificant enough to not change the election. I was satisfied with the outcome of the investigations.

Massie had a good tweet today "Cold Hard Facts"
1.) If every Republican votes to disallow every Biden elector on Jan 6th, Biden will still win based on simple math.
2.) No state has sent a competing set of electors. No state legislature has asked congress to reject it's electors.
3.) Trumps new AG isn't investigating anything

I think the handful of Republicans who encouraged this should be prosecuted. I think the Democrats who encouraged/turned a blind eye to Antifa and other groups should also be prosecuted. The fact that you can look at this and see the country divided 50/50 while only putting blame on one side is simply amazing. This isn't a movement that happened over 4 years with Chief Orange Man Bad in office. This has been in the works for a long time. Trump (with this personality and loud mouth) was the match.

This absolutely is a two party system failure. Anytime you establish two group and force individuals to take hard stance that eventually get to "all or nothing" or "fundamental level" changes you will have issues. There is NO middle ground available for 99% of America. It's accept this or that extreme outcome.

Castanza, my view is slightly different. The 2 party system is the symptom. The core problem is people are not holding politicians accountable. People celebrate unethical behaviour. They celebrate politicians who lie. They celebrate politicians who are viciously flawed. Like i say to my kids... if you don’t like something in your life to fix it the best place to start is to look in the mirror.

The twomparty system is forced by the constitution and the winner take all system for elections. countries that have equal representation for each vote don‘t have two party system as more than two parties can be represented in bodies the government.

So when you ask for abolishment of the two party system, you are basically asking for a significant change in the Constitution.

The two party system becomes more engrained and more important with the expansion of the government at the Federal level. The stakes are higher the more powerful govt gets. Do you think this would be happening if there wasn’t the threat of sweeping changes at a federal level across the aisle? With every action there is an equal reaction.

Personally I like how the Swiss setup their version of Congress/Cabinet.

One thing the republicans and democrats have in common is no third party.

Many Swiss don't know who their president is, president is not that important.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 06, 2021, 03:56:09 PM
This is probably the biggest crisis we've faced since WW2 and Hitler. I am glad Ive got a few guns.
My grandparents had guns before WW2 and Hitler too. They didn’t help against either.

Amusing to hear people who were in an uproar when a Target got looted trying to brush today off as "no big deal"
I don’t think People realize how close we are to a Weimar Republic scenario when we led this ride a little bit further.

Reading contemporaneous works from the 1920s and '30s in the part of the world shows how quickly people dismissed it all as just a passing fad and "no big deal"...

People thought that Adolf guy was just a clown who wouldn't achieve much.

You and many others said the same thing about BLM protests and ANTIFA.....

Will you be willing to say the same thing if Omar, AOC, and the squad usher in socialist policies?

Some of the pictures being shown on social media show prominent Antifa members adorning maga gear.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 06, 2021, 04:00:44 PM
Two bombs were found and defused in DC, including one in the RNC's building. It is confounding that some people in this thread fail to recognize this as an insurrection with acts of domestic terrorism that was fomented by Trump and a minority of Republicans, and that their fellow Republicans could have become victims of the insurrection or the bombers.

At a minimum, you could at least recognize that there is a serious issue of thesis creep.

And what was Trump’s message to those who planted the bombs? American posters are OK with that messaging?

Just tweeted by the twit...

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!


Time for the Twenty-fifth Amendment.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: VersaillesinNY on January 06, 2021, 04:05:40 PM
While it’s a dark day in American history, Trump is enjoying running his turbulent show until the end of his presidency (13 days left and counting).
Today’s events are not a tentative putsch, but a masquerade of desperate Trump supporters living in denial and delusion after losing the Presidential election.

While the US capitol building complex is not easy to protect against a large crowd of punks, it’s surprising to watch the mob quickly storming the halls of Congress. It appears to me that DC's law enforcement was unprepared and outnumbered to face these violent rednecks. In the USA, riot control teams lack proper equipment, preparation and tactics. Today’s mess is a testament of their incompetence.
But American democracy and its institutions remain strong, the transition of power will take place!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Mephistopheles on January 06, 2021, 04:07:15 PM
^ It's important to point out that worthless President Elect and then Candidate Joe Biden and faker Komrade Kamala, last summer NEVER ONCE
condemn the summer of violence, looting, arson in our wonderful cities - NOT ONCE.

NOT ONE WORD at the Democratic National Convention about the terrible summer of violence. NOT ONE.

They did however - arrange bail for the thugs and criminals involved.

That is the difference - don't be a hypocrite.

Big fucking difference between attacking Senators, Congressmen, the Speaker of the House and the VP of the United States than simply rioting in the streets.  Even you can tell the difference, can't you?  Or are you too far gone and this is just tit for tat?  Cheers!

Parsad, no need to say any of this, just point out the lies instead:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-biden-condemn-violence/fact-check-joe-biden-has-condemned-violent-protests-in-the-last-three-months-idUSKBN25V2O1

Don't waste time arguing with liars or cult members or both.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: drzola on January 06, 2021, 04:17:34 PM
JT Trudeau should step up to the plate and seduce Ivanka Trump for Western Democaracy maybe Eh!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 04:23:45 PM
Hold on now, I think you should call for volunteers first...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: drzola on January 06, 2021, 04:39:50 PM
Haha I doubt I could compete but best of luck Sir Lol|
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Xaston on January 06, 2021, 05:01:56 PM
Boy if I was Chinese leadership thinking that war with the USA is an eventual inevitability I'd be having to think pretty hard about launching it preemptively right about now
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 05:10:29 PM
I don't remember Biden riling them up repeatedly, do you?


Excellent point Dalal - where was ole Joe anyway during the "summer of love"?

Answer:  Hiding in his basement

How soon we forget.

Your leader, not mine bro.

Glad you admit "both sides" are not the same. Enjoy supporting a man who pours gasoline on fires.

Enjoy your gutless hero Biden - who did nothing at all during 2020 to quell the unrest.   You like like losers obviously.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 05:20:09 PM
I don't remember Biden riling them up repeatedly, do you?


Excellent point Dalal - where was ole Joe anyway during the "summer of love"?

Answer:  Hiding in his basement

How soon we forget.

Your leader, not mine bro.

Glad you admit "both sides" are not the same. Enjoy supporting a man who pours gasoline on fires.

Enjoy your gutless hero Biden - who did nothing at all during 2020 to quell the unrest.   You like like losers obviously.

“Loser”—that’s a word reserved for someone who lost by 7M votes and can’t come to terms with it.

Somebody get your hero a teddy.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 05:21:36 PM
^ It's important to point out that worthless President Elect and then Candidate Joe Biden and faker Komrade Kamala, last summer NEVER ONCE
condemn the summer of violence, looting, arson in our wonderful cities - NOT ONCE.

NOT ONE WORD at the Democratic National Convention about the terrible summer of violence. NOT ONE.

They did however - arrange bail for the thugs and criminals involved.

That is the difference - don't be a hypocrite.

Big fucking difference between attacking Senators, Congressmen, the Speaker of the House and the VP of the United States than simply rioting in the streets.  Even you can tell the difference, can't you?  Or are you too far gone and this is just tit for tat?  Cheers!

Parsad, no need to say any of this, just point out the lies instead:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-biden-condemn-violence/fact-check-joe-biden-has-condemned-violent-protests-in-the-last-three-months-idUSKBN25V2O1

Don't waste time arguing with liars or cult members or both.


You're a joke and everyone knows it. Keep those lies coming brother.

Watch the ENTIRE DNC video from last August - and come up with clips where the Cheat-to-Win Democrats CONDEMNED the violence, murder and chaos in American cities.   

You won't be able to do it - because they don't exist.

So put up or shut up.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 05:48:24 PM
These Trump guys are just completely in denial of the significance of an attack on their own federal government. It may not mean anything to them, but it certainly does to the rest of the world.


Try not and re-write history CW - I was HORRIFIED AND DISGUSTED all year last year. 

Meanwhile - Cheat-to-Win Democrats and DNC leadership losers Biden/Harris/Nadler/Pelosi, pretend NOTHING is happening.
All year long. It's all good. Peaceful protestors. Nothing to see here. Just blowing off steam. Reparations, blah, blah, blah.

What happened for 3-4 hours today is NOTHING compared to the travesty the Democrats perpetuated in 2020.

Alas, you and I agree - the world is watching and we are Third World.  Thanks for starting it all Barrack!

Barack has nothing to do with this except he pissed off Trump by joking about him, and the fact that he was the first black President.  Otherwise, there was nothing...I repeat...NOTHING...that Obama did that compares to what Trump has done over the last four years in degrading the Presidency and acting like the most petulant statesman to ever exist!  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 05:49:50 PM
Cubs, accusations of someone being a joke coming from someone delusional enough to still believe the election was 'fixed' is really not very convincing.

You should clean up your own act first and at least admit reality, before you make disparaging remarks about others.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 05:53:32 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 05:54:08 PM
Cubs, accusations of someone being a joke coming from someone delusional enough to still believe the election was 'fixed' is really not very convincing.

You should clean up your own act first and at least admit reality, before you make disparaging remarks about others.

I so value your lectures CW when it comes to disparaging individuals and what I should believe or not believe.
Tell me more about Trump/Russia collusion, Ukrainian hoaxes and your socialist paradise Cuba.

I really value your opinion on this issue - you'll be 0 for 4.

You just never learn.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 05:56:57 PM
These Trump guys are just completely in denial of the significance of an attack on their own federal government. It may not mean anything to them, but it certainly does to the rest of the world.


Try not and re-write history CW - I was HORRIFIED AND DISGUSTED all year last year. 

Meanwhile - Cheat-to-Win Democrats and DNC leadership losers Biden/Harris/Nadler/Pelosi, pretend NOTHING is happening.
All year long. It's all good. Peaceful protestors. Nothing to see here. Just blowing off steam. Reparations, blah, blah, blah.

What happened for 3-4 hours today is NOTHING compared to the travesty the Democrats perpetuated in 2020.

Alas, you and I agree - the world is watching and we are Third World.  Thanks for starting it all Barrack!

Barack has nothing to do with this except he pissed off Trump by joking about him, and the fact that he was the first black President.  Otherwise, there was nothing...I repeat...NOTHING...that Obama did that compares to what Trump has done over the last four years in degrading the Presidency and acting like the most petulant statesman to ever exist!  Cheers!

You are correct Sanjeev - Obama did absolutely NOTHING during his 8 years. Nothing. 8 wasted years.

The more he lost power for his party, the more he divided the country.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 05:59:14 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: arcube on January 06, 2021, 06:04:40 PM
Cubs & Greg....!!!!

Lol. New show on Faux News starting Jan 21.

Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 06, 2021, 06:07:59 PM
Republican legislators are calling this a coup attempt. Anyone who said that we didn't have to worry about a coup attempt has finally been proven wrong.

People are going to die over this. Probably more likely protestors than anyone else. There are reports of gunfire, and pipe bombs. I saw video of people being taken out in ambulances on stretchers.

Plus with COVID, it is likely that police and especially older members of government and staffers may die from this chaos and the need to seek shelter in cramped spaces.

Plus this will be all sorts of risks for the police and other security agencies.

The "law and order President" has just given the USA it's first coup.
The first death has been announced. RIP poor victim of another Trump grift.

As sad as this all is, I do not think we should underestimate the probability of the following taking place:

-The joint session completes their constitutional duties as early as this evening. Process of Biden becoming the next President completed.
-25th Amendment being invoked within 24 hours
-Trump impeached within the next day or two
-Trump convicted and removed before the completion of his term

Other serious risks that currently exist is that Trump will flee the country. Impeaching, removing, and convicting Trump of sedition or some other crime and putting him behind bars, would remove the risk of him fomenting insurrection from exile or sharing the information he would take with him in his head with the enemies of the USA.

We also should consider that Giuliani, Stone and other dirty tricksters may find themselves behind bars again soon.
These predictions might have sounded crazy a couple of hours ago, but both houses are meeting to affirm the votes and CBS News is now reporting that the cabinet is meeting to discuss invoking the 25th amendment.

Oh, and the rats are clamoring over each other to jump ship both in the legislature and the White House.

Censure might be easier to achieve than impeachment and removal, but I wouldn't rule it out.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 06:08:21 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!

Yeah, Right Parsad!

Obama made Iran the world's most dangerous terrorist nation - and then FUNDED THEM!  What a fool!

Then Putin walks into Ukraine - and Obama give them BLANKETS instead of Missiles.

He lets his boy Biden, get bribed by the Chinese, Ukrainians and Russians.

Thanks to spineless Obama - the US became the world's patsy!

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 06:08:36 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!

You are correct. The most powerful man in the universe indeed! He created covid earlier in the year and now today, he used the remote control on his iPhone to program all them protesters!

Green A - drop kick
Yellow Y - punch

Go!

What else will you guys come up with. Maybe the punishment for the 13 arrested should be to take lessons from the ANTIFAs on how to be peaceful? At least work got done in Nancy Pelosi's office today.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 06:11:52 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!

Yeah, but he is no statesman, he is a disgraceful excuse for a politician. The man has had mental problems from day one and this election loss has pushed him over the edge into insanity.

Today, once again he claimed that he won the election - by a landslide! What amazes me is that there are delusional people who still believe this lying piece of crap won the election.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 06:22:43 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!

Yeah, Right Parsad!

Obama made Iran the world's most dangerous terrorist nation - and then FUNDED THEM!  What a fool!

Then Putin walks into Ukraine - and Obama give them BLANKETS instead of Missiles.

He lets his boy Biden, get bribed by the Chinese, Ukrainians and Russians.

Thanks to spineless Obama - the US became the world's patsy!

Hahahahaha!  Do you blame Obama when the milk in your fridge goes bad?!  That Barack...up to his no good self making my milk curdle!  Next time your wife tells you that she has a headache, blame Obama!  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 06:28:17 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!

You are correct. The most powerful man in the universe indeed! He created covid earlier in the year and now today, he used the remote control on his iPhone to program all them protesters!

Green A - drop kick
Yellow Y - punch

Go!

What else will you guys come up with. Maybe the punishment for the 13 arrested should be to take lessons from the ANTIFAs on how to be peaceful? At least work got done in Nancy Pelosi's office today.

I actually think the 13 arrested, if found to have broken into and rampaged the Capitol, should be charged with treason...they're lucky they weren't shot!  And if you think I'm being excessive, when a gunman entered Canadian parliament and was shot, I thought that was perfectly fine.  This was no different! 

If they were arrested outside...normal charges for obstruction, destruction of property, etc.  But if they broke in, or entered any of the offices, lock them up for 20 years!  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 06:37:57 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!

You are correct. The most powerful man in the universe indeed! He created covid earlier in the year and now today, he used the remote control on his iPhone to program all them protesters!

Green A - drop kick
Yellow Y - punch

Go!

What else will you guys come up with. Maybe the punishment for the 13 arrested should be to take lessons from the ANTIFAs on how to be peaceful? At least work got done in Nancy Pelosi's office today.

I actually think the 13 arrested, if found to have broken into and rampaged the Capitol, should be charged with treason...they're lucky they weren't shot!  And if you think I'm being excessive, when a gunman entered Canadian parliament and was shot, I thought that was perfectly fine.  This was no different! 

If they were arrested outside...normal charges for obstruction, destruction of property, etc.  But if they broke in, or entered any of the offices, lock them up for 20 years!  Cheers!

No cash bail though, right?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 06, 2021, 06:49:39 PM
So the TL;DR of today:

Buncha suckers conned into thinking their guy won the election experience deprival super reaction syndrome when they see it ain’t gonna happen...

Guess Trump, Cruz, Hawley disagree with Romney: “The best way we can show respect for the voters who are upset is by telling them the truth.”

Oh well, at least the Trump Super PAC is flush with cash...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2021, 06:50:54 PM

No cash bail though, right?

Shit! I can't stop laughing!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 06, 2021, 07:01:26 PM
Yes as SP said, guy entered Canadian Parliament with a gun and he was promptly put out of his misery. Permanently. As in dead.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 06, 2021, 07:34:25 PM
1.) Where is President Trump? Nothing from him? No address to the nation? Strangely quiet.

2.) 25th Amendment: what happens in the next 24 hours? Sounds like talks are being had.

3.) Will Trump end up unifying the US politically (at least for a while)? (Disgust of Trump being the catalyst)

4.) Is Trump now toxic waste (to borrow from Spec)?

Stocks were up today. Futures are pointing up for tomorrow. ???

What an absolute nutty 24 hours.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2021, 07:58:38 PM
^

1) All social media has censored him
2) What are we watching CNN/reading NYT again? 2 weeks left. You'll live.
3) who knows, seems everyone woke up to the dangers of violent protest today
4) As Sanjeev even admitted, if you think he's not going to be a political force, you are naive. 70m+ votes in a world where all these guys care about is votes...come on now.

Of course, if we'd like to wager on any of these differing opinions, I'm always game for that. Money where the mouth is.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Xerxes on January 06, 2021, 08:01:45 PM
Obama made Iran the world's most dangerous terrorist nation - and then FUNDED THEM!  What a fool!

Then Putin walks into Ukraine - and Obama give them BLANKETS instead of Missiles.

Cubsfan,
Your understanding of the middle eastern politics seem to be very narrow. Iran is not the shining beacon in the region, but neither are U.S. closes allies in the Gulf. One of them had a U.S.-permanent resident abducted, chopped off in pieces and melted in acid in an embassy in Istanbul. What did the tough republicans made-of-steel do ?   send Mike Pompeo to Saudi Arabia to the bend the knee to the Saudis, and politely asking them to be more discreet next time. Funded Iran ? you mean paying back the money that U.S. stole & froze for 35 years ago. The money that belongs to the Iranian people.

EDIT: and by the way, I was in Iran, when U.S. was busy helping Iraq guide/coordinate its chemical (WMD) attacks during the war with Iran in the mid/late 1980s. Not sure which nation was the terrorist then ... these labels keep moving around like badges.

I am not a fan of the regime back home in Iran, they are just thieves and crooks, .... but not unlike the other powers in the region and in fact for that matter, not unlike the current corrupt administration in the White House with its network of lackies. 

As far as Russia, I believe both sides of aisle kind of see Ukraine as part of Russia' sphere of influence. Geographical distance is inversely correlated to U.S. response. But definitely Russia-U.S. relations took a deep dive in 2014. I am unware of how Obama facilitated that transaction.

How about Trump's love affair with Kim Jung Un ? why are we leaving that out

I understand that most of the foreign policy stuff you guys get comes from Trump tweets or FOX, so naturally lacking depth ,,,, but there is slightly more to that.

On a final note, thank god U.S. (for its sake) has very strong democratic institutions that could at least withstand this latest shock. I was very impressed Mitch McConnell's speech earlier today. In my humble opinion, it is ok to have voted for Trump in 2016 and even in 2020, but for the sake of your democratic institutions if I were a Trump supporter I should be relived that McConnell and the system put stop to this (or at least i hope he did). It is kind of irreversible once you go that way ...

Obama had many flaws, as all leaders do, .... and Trump did some great work on the economy and unleashing the animal spirits. That he deserves 100%.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2021, 10:45:52 PM
In two weeks the Trump lowlifes who supported today's insurrection will crawl back under their rocks.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 11:40:09 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!

You are correct. The most powerful man in the universe indeed! He created covid earlier in the year and now today, he used the remote control on his iPhone to program all them protesters!

Green A - drop kick
Yellow Y - punch

Go!

What else will you guys come up with. Maybe the punishment for the 13 arrested should be to take lessons from the ANTIFAs on how to be peaceful? At least work got done in Nancy Pelosi's office today.

I actually think the 13 arrested, if found to have broken into and rampaged the Capitol, should be charged with treason...they're lucky they weren't shot!  And if you think I'm being excessive, when a gunman entered Canadian parliament and was shot, I thought that was perfectly fine.  This was no different! 

If they were arrested outside...normal charges for obstruction, destruction of property, etc.  But if they broke in, or entered any of the offices, lock them up for 20 years!  Cheers!

No cash bail though, right?

Better believe it.  You walk into Congress, White House, Parliament, Sussex Drive...threatening violence, carrying guns...you go down.  And if you are still standing, you go to prison.  It's not just any target...it's the bastion of democracy for the U.S. or Canada.  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2021, 11:54:36 PM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!

You are correct. The most powerful man in the universe indeed! He created covid earlier in the year and now today, he used the remote control on his iPhone to program all them protesters!

Green A - drop kick
Yellow Y - punch

Go!

What else will you guys come up with. Maybe the punishment for the 13 arrested should be to take lessons from the ANTIFAs on how to be peaceful? At least work got done in Nancy Pelosi's office today.

I actually think the 13 arrested, if found to have broken into and rampaged the Capitol, should be charged with treason...they're lucky they weren't shot!  And if you think I'm being excessive, when a gunman entered Canadian parliament and was shot, I thought that was perfectly fine.  This was no different! 

If they were arrested outside...normal charges for obstruction, destruction of property, etc.  But if they broke in, or entered any of the offices, lock them up for 20 years!  Cheers!

No cash bail though, right?

Better believe it.  You walk into Congress, White House, Parliament, Sussex Drive...threatening violence, carrying guns...you go down.  And if you are still standing, you go to prison.  It's not just any target...it's the bastion of democracy for the U.S. or Canada.  Cheers!

Greg & Cubs, this is the perfect example why your hypocritical arguments are almost cult-like.  Remember this tweet from Trump?  10 years minimum...no cash bail though, right? 

Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 07, 2021, 03:14:28 AM
They should all be prosecuted. Same with Antifa and BLM rioters.

You can’t call for the prosecution of some and not the others.

There were plenty of individuals on here irate over riot police and “unmarked federal agents” arresting a bunch of meth heads destroying Portland and setting up CHAZ. That is also treason no?

(Intended hyperbole)
I don’t see any outrage on here for the lady who was shot an killed? She may have done a criminal act of going into the Congress, but she was just taking a selfie. Yet we heard on here how James Blake a woman beater, child abuser with a knife who was resisting arrest shouldn't have been shot. We can’t just embrace our chosen flavor of law and order.

I think 99% of the country is simply fed up with hypocrisy on all sides. If you talk with Trump supporters it’s immediately “well the dems did this”, then turn a blind eye to this etc. Talk to dems and you hear the same arguments. And as human history dictates, people succumb to the primal nature of humanity. There is nothing new under the sun.

Order needs to be restored. Trump isn’t the guy. Unfortunately I don’t think Biden/Harris is either. Let’s all hope that there is a solid candidate come next election that 80% of the country can get behind. It’s been a long time since the US has had a true leader in the Oval Office.

Congress has been unhinged for 8 years now. It has not functioned as intended and has been anything but Democratic and deliberate. Ryan and Pelosi along with Cocaine Mitch have destroyed Congress. If this was a company, and you took the top five figure heads from both parties and had them on the board you’d be bankrupt before you got off the ground.


Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 07, 2021, 04:32:20 AM
I was sick to my stomach last night.  I probably had the largest one day gain on my portfolio ever (mark to market), but I was physically sick.  The dumbasses just blew the only chance for the country to hear the objections to the election.  It wasn't going to get overturned, but it was going on the record.

This mess has a long way to go to get cleaned up.  Hoping for the best.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 07, 2021, 05:26:07 AM
In two weeks the Trump lowlifes who supported today's insurrection will crawl back under their rocks.

Eric - where you been?

Go back to your AntiiFa/BLM crowd and burn down a US Federal Courthouse already?

-- Oh, sorry, already did that I see....

Better yet, burn down the Courthouse with people inside that are just trying to protect it?

-- Oh, sorry, already did that too...

Don't worry, Eric - it's a whole new year - I'm sure you will find an Occupy Zone to take over, so your buddies can murder some citizens.

Always good to have you weigh in on matters of "Law and Order"
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 07, 2021, 05:32:11 AM
I was sick to my stomach last night.  I probably had the largest one day gain on my portfolio ever (mark to market), but I was physically sick.  The dumbasses just blew the only chance for the country to hear the objections to the election.  It wasn't going to get overturned, but it was going on the record.

This mess has a long way to go to get cleaned up.  Hoping for the best.

Many, many people share your feeling JRM.

Personally, I can't stand the fake outrage from the LEFT over this. All of a sudden - Law and Order matters. What a concept. How convenient. How hypocritical.

I've said it a million times: No Law and Order, No Civilization  ---- unless of course, you're a Democrat burning down the country.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 06:10:19 AM
Sanj, you just used Trump and "statesman" in the same sentence. Trump is no statesman. A disgrace perhaps, but no statesman.

"A statesman or stateswoman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level. "

He's the President...the U.S.' most important statesman and representative.  Whether respected or not. 

Regardless, I have no idea how the Trump supporters keep aiming for Obama.  Obama lifted America's reputation globally...this guy is just a piece of shit who had the opportunity to help his country, but instead let his big f**king orange ego get in the way. 

Have no idea how Cubs or Greg, or anyone in their right mind can defend this guy at this point.  It's just a complete shit-show now and his actions are a disgrace as President, as an American and as a human being.   Makes Nixon look down right puritanical!  Cheers!

You are correct. The most powerful man in the universe indeed! He created covid earlier in the year and now today, he used the remote control on his iPhone to program all them protesters!

Green A - drop kick
Yellow Y - punch

Go!

What else will you guys come up with. Maybe the punishment for the 13 arrested should be to take lessons from the ANTIFAs on how to be peaceful? At least work got done in Nancy Pelosi's office today.

I actually think the 13 arrested, if found to have broken into and rampaged the Capitol, should be charged with treason...they're lucky they weren't shot!  And if you think I'm being excessive, when a gunman entered Canadian parliament and was shot, I thought that was perfectly fine.  This was no different! 

If they were arrested outside...normal charges for obstruction, destruction of property, etc.  But if they broke in, or entered any of the offices, lock them up for 20 years!  Cheers!

No cash bail though, right?

Better believe it.  You walk into Congress, White House, Parliament, Sussex Drive...threatening violence, carrying guns...you go down.  And if you are still standing, you go to prison.  It's not just any target...it's the bastion of democracy for the U.S. or Canada.  Cheers!

Greg & Cubs, this is the perfect example why your hypocritical arguments are almost cult-like.  Remember this tweet from Trump?  10 years minimum...no cash bail though, right? 

Cheers!

How is this hypocritical? I dont think I ever mentioned Trump or even what should happen to any of these people? I just asked you if they were included in the bail reform nonsense you guys support.

Some of you guys seem to be trying to make the argument that because they entered a federal building(while ignoring that protesters have been entering federal buildings consistently for the past 6 months, as recently as 2 days ago in Philly in fact!) or because some super duper important congress people got scared, that its a bigger deal. To me, a crime is a crime, a person is a person, and a life is a life. To you guys, thats not the case. I have no respect for politicians or journalists so simply having a protest get a little too close for comfort for them....I dont feel sorry. The way people acted yesterday was unacceptable, but thats become a common occurrence in America although its amusing at the double standard and, yes, hypocrisy, regarding how many reacted to yesterday's events, when they've had plenty of time to be outraged by violent riots and protesters and chose not to care...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: SharperDingaan on January 07, 2021, 06:47:17 AM
Just to add some context, as this is not the first time that something like this has happened.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-capitol-attack-history-1.5863856

It would seem that this is being treated as a failed coup d'etat. Fortunately, with yesterdays election results, and the military remaining stood down, the attempt collapsed. Universally, around the world, failed perpetrators do not fare well - so expect more disruption (social and market) until Inauguration Day.

US Institutions are pretty resilient, and democracy is not always pretty, but it works.
As the free men and women of Georgia, demonstrated yesterday.

Congratulations.
 
SD
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 07, 2021, 06:48:29 AM
Quote
I don’t see any outrage on here for the lady who was shot an killed? She may have done a criminal act of going into the Congress, but she was just taking a selfie.

Not true. I lamented the expected loss of life of protesters in this very thread before she was even shot. After her death was announced, I also lamented her death and placed the blame on the Trump grift.

It's also not true that she was "just taking a selfie". She was attempting to cross the threshold in to an area where protected persons were sheltering. The Capitol Police kept falling back and evacuating and sheltering people. Thanks to their efforts to fall back, to the best of my knowledge she was the only person shot and killed by capitol police. Though others made it in to the chambers after they were evacuated, to the best of my knowledge, she was also the only person to try to cross the threshold in to an area where Capital Police protective duty officers were guarding people and essentially holding a line of defense. Once that happened she encountered a completely different "attitude".

Think of it this way, the guys on the outside are more the equivalent of elite mall cops, or traffic cops, who are essentially there to keep everyone safe and actually regularly enable civil disobedience and protestors. The protective officers on the inside are on a different mission. Once you cross the line in to an area of protection in a mob, probably everyone who crossing the line is likely to be killed. It's really about as dumb as saying "I just wanted to break in to the oval office and take a selfie with president and my favorite knife." Do that by yourself, and you may not end up dead. Do that with a bunch of your buddies and you a very likely going to be shot or killed. Killing this poor woman also had the effect of stopping others who certainly would have followed her, and I absolutely believe those officers should have a mandate and follow it without wavering.

By the way, she was an Air Force vet, so who knows what training, skills or weapons she might have brought with her. She also had a large backpack, which would be a concern the officers. Though she clearly was not very bright, she didn't deserve to die for her ignorance. Donald Trump has her blood all over his hands. Rudy Giuliani called for "trial by combat" at the rally and also has blood on his hands. So does anyone else who promoted conspiracy theories and insurection that resulted in her death. I would very much like to see manslaughter charges brought against the Trumpists for her death and the death of the three others.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 06:53:49 AM
I'm just perplexed as to why the media abandoned its typical writing format for protester shootings. I have yet to read an article that describes the (white) women who was shot by an (insert color) police officer....
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 07, 2021, 06:56:35 AM
Just to add some context, as this is not the first time that something like this has happened.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-capitol-attack-history-1.5863856

It would seem that this is being treated as a failed coup d'etat. Fortunately, with yesterdays election results, and the military remaining stood  down, the attempt collapsed. Universally, around the world, failed perpetrators do not fare well - so expect more disruption (social and market) until Inauguration Day.

US Institutions are pretty resilient, and democracy is not always pretty, but it works.
As the free men and women of Georgia, demonstrated yesterday.

Congratulations.
 
SD

One thing people are failing to appreciate is how quickly things could proceed on the hill.

There is no mandated minimum time required to impeach and remove a president. If there was broad bipartisan agreement, to remove Trump and that for everyone's safety it should be done as quickly as possible., it could be accomplished in hours, not months. Much of the time spent on impeachments is actually time trying to sway people to get votes. If you already have the votes, then you don't need to spend time on it and the next limiting factors are simply making sure that it will work in the context of the current coup attempt, that it will have legal standing, and the most arduous task of all, making sure that every blowhard in the chamber doesn't try to get his speech in the record.

I've been saying for almost a year on this forum that when the time finally comes, it will come very quickly. And when it does come, we should not be surprised to see Trump in cuffs afterwards, or more likely, trapped in the White House "for his own safety." A president can't move anywhere without security, and security follows him after office too. So they could simply say, it's not safe for you to leave your bedroom, Mr. Trump.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 07, 2021, 07:08:25 AM
The emphasis on race as an explanation for how protestors were treated is really not helpful in this situation, it likely played some role, but there are other explanations too. For example, many of the people who entered the capitol are well known agitators who are known for causing trouble around the country for at least five years. Many of them would be people who would have been researched and anticipated by the Intelligence Anaylsis division of the USCP. It's likely that they knew exactly who these people were and what they are capable of. It is very unlikely these people will get away with it, it is just that for diffusing the situation, it is likely better to let them be when you are overwhelmed and they will be prosecuted later. The photographic evidence is copious, so their time will come.

Another issue is that breaking them in to smaller groups is the best way to deal with the ring leaders. Allowing them inside may have allowed them to be detained or diffused out of sight of the other protesters and out of sight of the cameras. Shooting a woman in the neck in a hallway was likely a better way of diffusing the situation than shooting people in the open.

The Capitol Police had the option to fall back and they did. As far as we know everyone who was under protection was ultimately fine and there was a lot of reserved fire power, but to use it would have resulted in a lot of death. All in all they showed a lot of patience. That doesn't mean that there should not have been an overwhelming show of force from multiple agencies.

Another explanation is that there is a long culture of allowing protests in the Capitol building so these officers have a lot of experience allowing protests in the building, they just don't have experience with a coup.

Finally, as I said earlier, there were likely many different details with different missions. Those that were most easily seen were those on the outside of the building who were just crowd control for the most part. The people we could not see who meant business were the ones engaged in protecting the people inside.

Still a giant failure that there was not an overwhelming show of force, but when you are anticipating a coup attempt, you also have to think about whether those forces could be used against you, etc.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 07, 2021, 07:12:28 AM
I think one thing to consider is if we have a functional government at the moment and for the next 2 weeks. I think the answer is that we do not.

It is debatable if we had a functional government since the election but that's the past and sort of a moot now. What matters is the future.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: rb on January 07, 2021, 09:28:56 AM
I think one thing to consider is if we have a functional government at the moment and for the next 2 weeks. I think the answer is that we do not.

It is debatable if we had a functional government since the election but that's the past and sort of a moot now. What matters is the future.
I think it's fair to say that America will not have a fully functioning government for the next 2 weeks. Trump essentially stopped being President on Jan 6. You can see it in the way he was not involved in deploying National Guard to DC. Do you think if he orders a military attack that is not in the "day to day scope" that will be carried out? I have serious doubts about that. I think that because it's only 2 weeks the plan is to just get through it as long as Trump doesn't do another nutty thing.

For the most part it's no big deal. Similar how it's no big deal for a large corporation to carry on if the CEO goes on vacation. The Federal government has a large career workforce that doesn't need the President to make the trains run on time. The largest problem would be if some foreign adversary takes the current state of weakness to strike the United States. But I think that the US Military still represents enough of a threat to keep those thoughts at bay.

Of course all of this will be put to the test once Trump regains access to his Twitter account.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Mephistopheles on January 07, 2021, 09:38:21 AM

The largest problem would be if some foreign adversary takes the current state of weakness to strike the United States. But I think that the US Military still represents enough of a threat to keep those thoughts at bay.


How about the cyber attack by the Russians that is ongoing
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 09:45:02 AM

The largest problem would be if some foreign adversary takes the current state of weakness to strike the United States. But I think that the US Military still represents enough of a threat to keep those thoughts at bay.


How about the cyber attack by the Russians that is ongoing

Lets play a game called, Who Said That?

In regards to Russia being a major threat to the US....

"The 1980s called, and they want their foreign policy back!"

Guesses?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: mattee2264 on January 07, 2021, 09:58:23 AM

 Let me think....flippant, arrogant, uninformed....must be a Democrat. Not Biden though.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 10:04:51 AM

 Let me think....flippant, arrogant, uninformed....must be a Democrat. Not Biden though.

The answer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Mephistopheles on January 07, 2021, 10:07:45 AM
Good point, I forgot that Barack Obama is still President
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Mephistopheles on January 07, 2021, 10:10:15 AM
LOL, so Obama in 2012 didn't have the foresight to see that the Russians in 2016 would spread misinformation or in 2020 do a cyber attack but let's blame him and ignore the actual attack and forget the maniac who's in charge at the moment
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 07, 2021, 11:02:29 AM
Obviously many MAGA individuals were involved. But here is a video showing some Antifa clown getting booed at and stopped from breaking windows.

https://twitter.com/ligia4508/status/1347248837375746049?s=21
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: SharperDingaan on January 07, 2021, 11:04:03 AM
Just to add some context, as this is not the first time that something like this has happened.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-capitol-attack-history-1.5863856

It would seem that this is being treated as a failed coup d'etat. Fortunately, with yesterdays election results, and the military remaining stood  down, the attempt collapsed. Universally, around the world, failed perpetrators do not fare well - so expect more disruption (social and market) until Inauguration Day.

US Institutions are pretty resilient, and democracy is not always pretty, but it works.
As the free men and women of Georgia, demonstrated yesterday.

Congratulations.
 
SD

One thing people are failing to appreciate is how quickly things could proceed on the hill.

There is no mandated minimum time required to impeach and remove a president. If there was broad bipartisan agreement, to remove Trump and that for everyone's safety it should be done as quickly as possible., it could be accomplished in hours, not months. Much of the time spent on impeachments is actually time trying to sway people to get votes. If you already have the votes, then you don't need to spend time on it and the next limiting factors are simply making sure that it will work in the context of the current coup attempt, that it will have legal standing, and the most arduous task of all, making sure that every blowhard in the chamber doesn't try to get his speech in the record.

I've been saying for almost a year on this forum that when the time finally comes, it will come very quickly. And when it does come, we should not be surprised to see Trump in cuffs afterwards, or more likely, trapped in the White House "for his own safety." A president can't move anywhere without security, and security follows him after office too. So they could simply say, it's not safe for you to leave your bedroom, Mr. Trump.

The other thing is that Trump needs to be both separated from past presidential tradition, and Trump nation, while it is still possible.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/politics/trump-impeachment-25th-amendment-congress-schumer/index.html

Vice exists for a reason, and few are going to be concerned with a now guaranteed two-week term, or less. Remove immunity from prosecution, and Trump will not be king-making anybody in 2024. Add to which Trump f***** u* BOTH the congress AND senate elections - well, everybody needs a scapegoat, and the man at the top is wearing milk-bone undies.

Rather suspect that prosecution will be permitted as a vehicle to bankruptcy, but not extradition. The poor, and stinking, cannot mount campaigns. If the man dies before extradition, well we tried ... but the man was 78+, erratic, and never really got over his presidential loss, and the subsequent collapse of his empire.

SD

 
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 11:06:45 AM
Castanza, I remember how oh so hard they continuously tried to find MAGAs at the ANTIFA/BLM parties behaving badly. I dont think they'll reciprocate that search here.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 07, 2021, 11:34:55 AM
Obviously many MAGA individuals were involved. But here is a video showing some Antifa clown getting booed at and stopped from breaking windows.

https://twitter.com/ligia4508/status/1347248837375746049?s=21
I'm not sure how ANTIFA managed to stay away from the "fun" of a violent riot, but it's simply not credible that Antifa and Trumpists were fighting shoulder to shoulder.

ANTIFA is a bunch of losers who live to fight Trumpists. Fighints is what they do for kicks on the weekends. They are full of violent jerks. The idea that they could coexist alongside MAGA types for any period of time is not credible. It's hard to believe any of them are organized or disciplined enough to do that, plus it would be a break from all previous experience with Antifa.

Now if you said that Antifa sucker punched some perceived fascist with a bike lock, I'd totally believe you.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 07, 2021, 12:18:57 PM
Nothing like the totalitarian rule of the Democrats - it's starting and we're in for quite the ride.

Spent all of 2020 destroying our statues and history. Followed by burning down our cities. DNC leaders look the other way and bail out the criminals.
A travesty of Law and Order ---- but now they care.

And Brownshirts Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerburg in full Goebbel's mode.

Between them, the media, and loser Democrats - they'll tell you what to think, what you can say or not say, what sex you are, what school you
can go to (if you're the right color) -- all the while destroying our culture and re-writing our history.

Welcome to the Totalitarian Regime of Nancy Pelosi and Criminal Joe Biden.

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 07, 2021, 01:22:59 PM
Obviously many MAGA individuals were involved. But here is a video showing some Antifa clown getting booed at and stopped from breaking windows.

https://twitter.com/ligia4508/status/1347248837375746049?s=21
I'm not sure how ANTIFA managed to stay away from the "fun" of a violent riot, but it's simply not credible that Antifa and Trumpists were fighting shoulder to shoulder.

ANTIFA is a bunch of losers who live to fight Trumpists. Fighints is what they do for kicks on the weekends. They are full of violent jerks. The idea that they could coexist alongside MAGA types for any period of time is not credible. It's hard to believe any of them are organized or disciplined enough to do that, plus it would be a break from all previous experience with Antifa.

Now if you said that Antifa sucker punched some perceived fascist with a bike lock, I'd totally believe you.

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Time will tell, I'm not going to make a claim with certainty. You go ahead though. Antifa hates the "system" hence their continued riots. It's not entirely about Trump and Biden to them. I think it's most certainly possible there were some. Could also be Proud Boys dressing up as Antifa.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 01:54:25 PM
Did anyone hear that Michele Obama is calling for Trumps ban from all the social media sites? The first amendment is popular with the left. Very much so. What I am hearing is that if 3 more lefties chime in about how this is such an "national embossment", "threat to democracy", or a "total disgrace", that it just might be the final straw!

In other news, I woke up today, kids had virtual class, bought some stocks, went to the post office and grocery store, and life was totally normal outside of the utter shame I carry for living in America knowing that all of our allies who I dont know and who dont know me, are totally besides themselves with what has happened to the country...oh yea, and China is laughing at us. That was annoying and bothered me while I was eating lunch.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JPerez on January 07, 2021, 02:00:58 PM
That is great Gregmal!
As long as it doesn't affect you.
There could be putting all Jews and blacks in concentration camps or they could cancelled all elections in America and make trump emperor for life.
As long as you can live in your tiny 3000sq foot house, your kids are ok and you can go grocery shopping and trading stocks who cares, right?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 02:05:10 PM
That is quite the read through my man. Ive been lucky to avoid the American concentration camps for sure. As have most of my Jewish and Black friends. Whew!

Edit: upon reflection, I think I should take some time to reflect. I will retreat to my 2,000 sq/ft finished basement Joe Biden style. Dont house shame me please!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 07, 2021, 03:33:40 PM
Obama made Iran the world's most dangerous terrorist nation - and then FUNDED THEM!  What a fool!

Then Putin walks into Ukraine - and Obama give them BLANKETS instead of Missiles.

Cubsfan,
Your understanding of the middle eastern politics seem to be very narrow. Iran is not the shining beacon in the region, but neither are U.S. closes allies in the Gulf. One of them had a U.S.-permanent resident abducted, chopped off in pieces and melted in acid in an embassy in Istanbul. What did the tough republicans made-of-steel do ?   send Mike Pompeo to Saudi Arabia to the bend the knee to the Saudis, and politely asking them to be more discreet next time. Funded Iran ? you mean paying back the money that U.S. stole & froze for 35 years ago. The money that belongs to the Iranian people.

EDIT: and by the way, I was in Iran, when U.S. was busy helping Iraq guide/coordinate its chemical (WMD) attacks during the war with Iran in the mid/late 1980s. Not sure which nation was the terrorist then ... these labels keep moving around like badges.

I am not a fan of the regime back home in Iran, they are just thieves and crooks, .... but not unlike the other powers in the region and in fact for that matter, not unlike the current corrupt administration in the White House with its network of lackies. 

As far as Russia, I believe both sides of aisle kind of see Ukraine as part of Russia' sphere of influence. Geographical distance is inversely correlated to U.S. response. But definitely Russia-U.S. relations took a deep dive in 2014. I am unware of how Obama facilitated that transaction.

How about Trump's love affair with Kim Jung Un ? why are we leaving that out

I understand that most of the foreign policy stuff you guys get comes from Trump tweets or FOX, so naturally lacking depth ,,,, but there is slightly more to that.

On a final note, thank god U.S. (for its sake) has very strong democratic institutions that could at least withstand this latest shock. I was very impressed Mitch McConnell's speech earlier today. In my humble opinion, it is ok to have voted for Trump in 2016 and even in 2020, but for the sake of your democratic institutions if I were a Trump supporter I should be relived that McConnell and the system put stop to this (or at least i hope he did). It is kind of irreversible once you go that way ...

Obama had many flaws, as all leaders do, .... and Trump did some great work on the economy and unleashing the animal spirits. That he deserves 100%.

Thanks for the feedback Xerxes - at least civil and well done.

First of all - Iran is in the BUSINESS of EXPORTING terrorism throughout the region. The Saudis are not. Who ever said the Saudis or Turks were
saints - certainly not me.  But there is no question the ONLY expansionist power in the Middle East is Iran. Just ask Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iraq.
Tell me  - what Middle East country, besides the Persians are actively taking over their neighbors??
The Persians hate the Arabs. Why are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Emirates, etc - now allied with ISRAEL against an expansionist Iran??

Iran is EASILY the most dangerous country in the Middle East - no contest.

So you think it's just great that Obama/Kerry FUNDED their terrorist expansion?  Sorry - agree to disagree here.

Russia:  It's pretty simple. Just check the record. Russia invaded Crimea after Obama drew one of his "red lines".
When the Ukrainians asked for Anti-tank missiles - Obama pussyed out and refused. But he did give them blankets and MRE's.
Trump's first act with Ukraine was to give them missiles. You must have missed it.

North Korea:  What's the little tyrant done during Trump's term. Answer: Nothing - why?  Trump laid down savage sanctions. Kim is not stupid.
Kim saw Trump kill 200 Russians in Syria, when Putin got out of line. Kim saw Trump use the MOAB in Afghanistan - and decided he didn't need
any of that.

So we can just agree to disagree.




Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 07, 2021, 03:34:19 PM
That is great Gregmal!
As long as it doesn't affect you.
There could be putting all Jews and blacks in concentration camps or they could cancelled all elections in America and make trump emperor for life.
As long as you can live in your tiny 3000sq foot house, your kids are ok and you can go grocery shopping and trading stocks who cares, right?

Hey, I am with Gregmal here and my political opinion is quite different. I don‘t like what’s happening, but not much I can do about it. I went to work and tonight we are celebrating our sons birthday. Live goes on. There are things you can control and things you can’t and worrying about the latter  gives you nothing but ulcers.

And yes, if Jews or blacks or anyone else would have to go in concentration camps that would be a different story but that’s not happening.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 07, 2021, 03:34:40 PM
Most country’s patriotic citizens take pride in their country and try in their own small way to make their country a great place to live.

Then there are some self-centred people who don’t care what the rest of the world thinks of their country so long as they are comfortable in their own insular lives.

These are the first people who cry and complain about other countries being “so unfair” to their country and get insulted when other nations don’t respect their country.

Its ironic that many of these same people fell for the propaganda “Make America Great Again” and then stood by as the exact opposite took place.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 07, 2021, 03:40:02 PM
It would be interesting to see the odds of what the betting markets are giving of Trump pardoning himself in the next 13 days. Or resigning and Pence pardoning him; my guess is the Pence option is much less likely given events the past 24 hours.

Trump has said in the past he has no reason to pardon himself as he has done nothing wrong. Given what he has said, if he does take the extraordinary step of pardoning himself it will likely be because he feels he has done something where he is at risk of prosecution. But by taking the extraordinary step of pardoning himself he will then likely force Biden's hand to actually prosecute (if nothing else to determine if a sitting President can pardon themself).

Trump better start to get his shit together; the clock is ticking. The sharks are circling and Trump had better stop throwing fish guts in the water right before he is about to jump off the diving board.
-------------------------
Trump Is Said to Have Discussed Pardoning Himself
- https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/us/politics/trump-self-pardon.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

The discussions occurred in recent weeks, and it was not clear whether he has brought it up since he incited supporters to march on the Capitol, where some stormed the site.

President Trump has suggested to aides he wants to pardon himself in the final days of his presidency, according to two people with knowledge of the discussions, a move that would mark one of the most extraordinary and untested uses of presidential power in American history.

In several conversations since Election Day, Mr. Trump has told advisers that he is considering giving himself a pardon and, in other instances, asked whether he should and what the effect would be on him legally and politically, according to the two people.

...No president has pardoned himself, so the legitimacy of prospective self-clemency has never been tested in the justice system, and legal scholars are divided about whether the courts would recognize it. But they agree a presidential self-pardon could create a dangerous new precedent for presidents to unilaterally declare they are above the law and to insulate themselves from being held accountable for any crimes they committed in office.

...Mr. Trump has considered a range of pre-emptive pardons for family, including his three oldest children — Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump and Ivanka Trump — for Ms. Trump’s husband, the senior White House adviser Jared Kushner, and for close associates like the president’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani. The president has expressed concerns to advisers that a Biden Justice Department might investigate all of them.

...The discussions between Mr. Trump and his aides about a self-pardon came before his pressure over the weekend on Georgia officials to help him try to overturn the election results or his incitement of the riots at the Capitol. Trump allies believe that both episodes increased Mr. Trump’s criminal exposure, and more potential problems emerged for the president on Thursday when the Justice Department said it would not rule out pursuing charges against him over his role in inciting Wednesday’s violence.

...As aides urged Mr. Trump to issue a strong condemnation on Wednesday and he rejected that advice, the White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone, warned Mr. Trump that he could face legal exposure for the riot given that he had urged his supporters to march to the Capitol and “fight” beforehand, according to people briefed on the discussion. The president had appeared to White House aides to be enjoying watching the scenes play out on television.

...A self-pardon would align with Mr. Trump’s unprecedented use of the pardon power. The framers of the Constitution gave the president almost total authority to grant clemency for federal crimes, positioning the head of the executive branch as a check on the judicial branch and as someone who could dip into the justice system to show grace and mercy on the downtrodden.

...But Mr. Trump has eschewed the formal Justice Department process set up to ensure pardons are handed out fairly. Instead, he has used his pardon power unlike any other president to help allies, undermine rivals and push his own political agenda. Of the 94 pardons and commutations Mr. Trump has granted, 89 percent were issued to people who had a personal tie to Mr. Trump, helped him politically or whose case resonated with him, according to a tabulation by Mr. Goldsmith.

...The Justice Department said in a short August 1974 opinion, just four days before Mr. Nixon resigned, that “it would seem” that presidents cannot pardon themselves “under the fundamental rule that no one may be a judge in his own case.”

...“Only a court can invalidate a self-pardon, and it can only do so if the Biden administration brings a case against Trump,” Mr. Goldsmith said. “A Trump self-pardon would thus make it more likely the Biden team prosecutes Trump for crimes committed in office.”
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 03:50:44 PM
If anyone honestly wants to "make a difference", like, a real difference, not sitting at a stupid rally or protest, but actually improving the world....focus on the elderly(quality of life stuff), kids(volunteering your time with youth sports programs or educational type stuff), and donate the material shit you dont use that folks like us have tons of and take for granted. Donating locally is great too because you know the people running the charities and you see the funds go to work in the community. Outside of that, you're a sucker if you think you have any control over anything...unless you are 9+ figure wealthy or something.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 07, 2021, 04:44:59 PM
If anyone honestly wants to "make a difference", like, a real difference, not sitting at a stupid rally or protest, but actually improving the world....focus on the elderly(quality of life stuff), kids(volunteering your time with youth sports programs or educational type stuff), and donate the material shit you dont use that folks like us have tons of and take for granted. Donating locally is great too because you know the people running the charities and you see the funds go to work in the community. Outside of that, you're a sucker if you think you have any control over anything...unless you are 9+ figure wealthy or something.

You mean the tens of thousands of the elderly that are dead now because Trump supporters don't need to wear masks in public, public areas, nursing homes, etc.?  Trump helped reduce their numbers...plus he wanted to cut off their Medicare!  Not blaming you Greg...just saying.  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 04:51:23 PM
^ I did see that. Hopefully one day Cuomo gets the SDNY on Trump. Hold him accountable for all those nursing home deaths. Justice will be served!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 07, 2021, 05:03:52 PM
Quote
I don’t see any outrage on here for the lady who was shot an killed? She may have done a criminal act of going into the Congress, but she was just taking a selfie.

Not true. I lamented the expected loss of life of protesters in this very thread before she was even shot. After her death was announced, I also lamented her death and placed the blame on the Trump grift.

It's also not true that she was "just taking a selfie". She was attempting to cross the threshold in to an area where protected persons were sheltering. The Capitol Police kept falling back and evacuating and sheltering people. Thanks to their efforts to fall back, to the best of my knowledge she was the only person shot and killed by capitol police. Though others made it in to the chambers after they were evacuated, to the best of my knowledge, she was also the only person to try to cross the threshold in to an area where Capital Police protective duty officers were guarding people and essentially holding a line of defense. Once that happened she encountered a completely different "attitude".

Think of it this way, the guys on the outside are more the equivalent of elite mall cops, or traffic cops, who are essentially there to keep everyone safe and actually regularly enable civil disobedience and protestors. The protective officers on the inside are on a different mission. Once you cross the line in to an area of protection in a mob, probably everyone who crossing the line is likely to be killed. It's really about as dumb as saying "I just wanted to break in to the oval office and take a selfie with president and my favorite knife." Do that by yourself, and you may not end up dead. Do that with a bunch of your buddies and you a very likely going to be shot or killed. Killing this poor woman also had the effect of stopping others who certainly would have followed her, and I absolutely believe those officers should have a mandate and follow it without wavering.

By the way, she was an Air Force vet, so who knows what training, skills or weapons she might have brought with her. She also had a large backpack, which would be a concern the officers. Though she clearly was not very bright, she didn't deserve to die for her ignorance. Donald Trump has her blood all over his hands. Rudy Giuliani called for "trial by combat" at the rally and also has blood on his hands. So does anyone else who promoted conspiracy theories and insurection that resulted in her death. I would very much like to see manslaughter charges brought against the Trumpists for her death and the death of the three others.

You lost me at “ By the way, she was an Air Force vet, so who knows what training, skills or weapons she might have brought with her.”

 ;D you’re digging deep with that comment. And my comment which you quoted wasn’t directed just at you.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 07, 2021, 05:16:06 PM
Most country’s patriotic citizens take pride in their country and try in their own small way to make their country a great place to live.

Then there are some self-centred people who don’t care what the rest of the world thinks of their country so long as they are comfortable in their own insular lives.

These are the first people who cry and complain about other countries being “so unfair” to their country and get insulted when other nations don’t respect their country.

Its ironic that many of these same people fell for the propaganda “Make America Great Again” and then stood by as the exact opposite took place.

And now the great Purge begins.  Off to the Gulag with the MAGA folks.  Welcome to the New Democratic Totalitarian Regime folks.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 07, 2021, 05:19:51 PM
Quote
I don’t see any outrage on here for the lady who was shot an killed? She may have done a criminal act of going into the Congress, but she was just taking a selfie.

Not true. I lamented the expected loss of life of protesters in this very thread before she was even shot. After her death was announced, I also lamented her death and placed the blame on the Trump grift.

It's also not true that she was "just taking a selfie". She was attempting to cross the threshold in to an area where protected persons were sheltering. The Capitol Police kept falling back and evacuating and sheltering people. Thanks to their efforts to fall back, to the best of my knowledge she was the only person shot and killed by capitol police. Though others made it in to the chambers after they were evacuated, to the best of my knowledge, she was also the only person to try to cross the threshold in to an area where Capital Police protective duty officers were guarding people and essentially holding a line of defense. Once that happened she encountered a completely different "attitude".

Think of it this way, the guys on the outside are more the equivalent of elite mall cops, or traffic cops, who are essentially there to keep everyone safe and actually regularly enable civil disobedience and protestors. The protective officers on the inside are on a different mission. Once you cross the line in to an area of protection in a mob, probably everyone who crossing the line is likely to be killed. It's really about as dumb as saying "I just wanted to break in to the oval office and take a selfie with president and my favorite knife." Do that by yourself, and you may not end up dead. Do that with a bunch of your buddies and you a very likely going to be shot or killed. Killing this poor woman also had the effect of stopping others who certainly would have followed her, and I absolutely believe those officers should have a mandate and follow it without wavering.

By the way, she was an Air Force vet, so who knows what training, skills or weapons she might have brought with her. She also had a large backpack, which would be a concern the officers. Though she clearly was not very bright, she didn't deserve to die for her ignorance. Donald Trump has her blood all over his hands. Rudy Giuliani called for "trial by combat" at the rally and also has blood on his hands. So does anyone else who promoted conspiracy theories and insurection that resulted in her death. I would very much like to see manslaughter charges brought against the Trumpists for her death and the death of the three others.

You lost me at “ By the way, she was an Air Force vet, so who knows what training, skills or weapons she might have brought with her.”

 ;D you’re digging deep with that comment. And my comment which you quoted wasn’t directed just at you.
I assumed it wasn't directed at me, but there does seem to be a pattern of people assuming that just because people aren't complaining about something that much doesn't mean that 80% of people aren't upset about it, same with the posters here. If you really want to know what the members of Corner think about Antifa, or BLM riots or whatever, why not post a poll rather than just make accusations. If I agree with you, I may not reply, that doesn't mean I don't agree. My guess is that many more people agree with you on these accusations and it's a waste of time making accusations.

Regarding training, yes, using base rate analysis, the odds are she drove a truck or peeled potatoes, but who knows? At the time I wrote that, video was not available. Now that the video is readily available, it's clear that she just crossed a line was immediately shot and killed, and anything else is likely irrelevant.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Castanza on January 07, 2021, 05:20:10 PM
That is great Gregmal!
As long as it doesn't affect you.
There could be putting all Jews and blacks in concentration camps or they could cancelled all elections in America and make trump emperor for life.
As long as you can live in your tiny 3000sq foot house, your kids are ok and you can go grocery shopping and trading stocks who cares, right?

That’s great JPerez!
As long as it’s not in America it doesn’t affect you.
There could be Muslims being killed in China, Christians being killed in Turkey, Villages being ravaged by Boka Haram in Africa, young girls being sold into sex slavery by the thousands, and dozens of desperate people being Beheaded by the cartel.
As long as you can live comfy in the richest most opportunistic country to ever exist.
Who cares, right?

Democracy is not ending folks.

This comment is on par with whoever said Coronavirus was an extinction level event. Hyperbole at its finest.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 07, 2021, 05:35:33 PM
Most country’s patriotic citizens take pride in their country and try in their own small way to make their country a great place to live.

Then there are some self-centred people who don’t care what the rest of the world thinks of their country so long as they are comfortable in their own insular lives.

These are the first people who cry and complain about other countries being “so unfair” to their country and get insulted when other nations don’t respect their country.

Its ironic that many of these same people fell for the propaganda “Make America Great Again” and then stood by as the exact opposite took place.

And now the great Purge begins.  Off to the Gulag with the MAGA folks.  Welcome to the New Democratic Totalitarian Regime folks.

What on earth are you talking about?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: no_free_lunch on January 07, 2021, 05:40:22 PM
It's going to be a tough 4 years for Republicans.  The Democrats had their police forces kill 4 Republican protesters as I understand it. Get used to it and adapt, this is the way socialism works, there is still police but they are focused on eliminating enemies of the state.  Given the demonization of Rs it won't be hard to find volunteers.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 07, 2021, 05:43:01 PM
Most country’s patriotic citizens take pride in their country and try in their own small way to make their country a great place to live.

Then there are some self-centred people who don’t care what the rest of the world thinks of their country so long as they are comfortable in their own insular lives.

These are the first people who cry and complain about other countries being “so unfair” to their country and get insulted when other nations don’t respect their country.

Its ironic that many of these same people fell for the propaganda “Make America Great Again” and then stood by as the exact opposite took place.

And now the great Purge begins.  Off to the Gulag with the MAGA folks.  Welcome to the New Democratic Totalitarian Regime folks.

What on earth are you talking about?
I'm pretty sure he's talking about this:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/08/trump-twitter-video-capitol-riot-response-national-guard-bash-sot-ebof-vpx.cnn

Quote
"Trump releases video message condemning rioters: You will pay"

Like McConnell and Pence learned this week, eventually he turns on everyone.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 07, 2021, 05:45:38 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/us/politics/a-capitol-police-officer-who-was-seriously-injured-wednesday-has-died-two-law-enforcement-officials-said.html
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 07, 2021, 05:52:14 PM
Most country’s patriotic citizens take pride in their country and try in their own small way to make their country a great place to live.

Then there are some self-centred people who don’t care what the rest of the world thinks of their country so long as they are comfortable in their own insular lives.

These are the first people who cry and complain about other countries being “so unfair” to their country and get insulted when other nations don’t respect their country.

Its ironic that many of these same people fell for the propaganda “Make America Great Again” and then stood by as the exact opposite took place.

And now the great Purge begins.  Off to the Gulag with the MAGA folks.  Welcome to the New Democratic Totalitarian Regime folks.

What on earth are you talking about?
I'm pretty sure he's talking about this:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/08/trump-twitter-video-capitol-riot-response-national-guard-bash-sot-ebof-vpx.cnn

Quote
"Trump releases video message condemning rioters: You will pay"

Like McConnell and Pence learned this week, eventually he turns on everyone.

Sounds like Trump was taken to the woodshed.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 07, 2021, 05:54:26 PM
Sounds like Trump was taken to the woodshed.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's running scared and is letting his lawyers make all the decisions from here on out. He's gone in to "full Trump deposition mode".
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 07, 2021, 06:12:09 PM
^ You boys just work on sharpening that Guillotine - you'll need to get rid of those MAGA opponents quick before the rest of the country catches on.

So far, everything is going as planned: You control the media, You got the empty suit leader with his Politburo, You got your fake crimes.
Maybe your show trials will work too?

Then all you need are your Gulags and Guillotines to cement your control for the millions that resist.

Remember: NO COMPROMISE - OFF WITH THEIR HEADS.

Then you will be able to "Bring the Country Together" - The Democatic Totalitarian Way.

Like the man above said:

Get used to it and adapt, this is the way socialism works, there is still police but they are focused on eliminating enemies of the state.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 07, 2021, 06:17:56 PM
Easy to see Trump has had a mental breakdown. But I'm starting to worry about Cubs...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 07, 2021, 06:25:07 PM
Easy to see Trump has had a mental breakdown. But I'm starting to worry about Cubs...

Not to worry. I'll be in hiding.

You, Viking, and RTF just get that "Night of the Long Knives"  purge going before it's to late. It worked wonders to consolidating Hitler's power.

It will work for you too.

Remember: The only thing that matters is propaganda and total power.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2021, 06:28:37 PM
cwericb, why dont you go fetch us another one of those covid updates....or are you winding down that operation because hero is taking office soon? Sanjeev mentioned earlier that Trump killed all the old people in nursing homes, can you get me that tally again?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 07, 2021, 06:46:27 PM
I can see you boys are going to have a great time with this. It's your moment guys. Don't blow it.

Just think - once you get rid of the MAGA leaders and followers - you get to re-write history completely.

Russian Hoax?                      No, No, No - Trump was a Russian Agent!
Ukraine Corruption?              No, No, No  - Not Joe Biden!  It was Trump along and he's gone now!
Covid?                                 No, No, No   - Not China!  It was Trump's fault all along!

Just think - the Great Patriots, Adam Schiff and Jerry Nadler were right all along.

Welcome Totalitarians - NO ROOM FOR DISSENT.

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 07, 2021, 08:28:56 PM
Easy to see Trump has had a mental breakdown. But I'm starting to worry about Cubs...

Not to worry. I'll be in hiding.

You, Viking, and RTF just get that "Night of the Long Knives"  purge going before it's to late. It worked wonders to consolidating Hitler's power.

It will work for you too.

Remember: The only thing that matters is propaganda and total power.

Cubs, i am not sure what your point is.

Nobody is going to do anything TO Trump.

Now when Trump does bat shit crazy things then there will be consequences. Trump is doing it to himself.

When he calls a rally, lies to and then incites the mob, instructs them where to go (when he knows congress will be in full session), to use force and then lots of people die (including law enforcement) and even more are injured (including more than 50 law enforcement), congress is ransacked, politicians including VP are put directly in harms way and then evacuated, a few bombs are planted, watches gleefully on TV, and then tells them ‘we love you; you are very special’ then, yes, there WILL be consequences for his words and actions.
- Like a bunch of his closest staffers resigning.
- Like a shitload of new Republican politicians saying his lies and behaviour is undermining American Democracy and it has to stop.
- Like all social media sites taking the unprecedented step of banning him for inciting a riot and to prevent more of the same.

What happens to Trump moving forward will be of his own doing. It will be the consequence of his words and actions. And that is called justice.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: LC on January 07, 2021, 09:05:32 PM
I can see you boys are going to have a great time with this. It's your moment guys. Don't blow it.

Just think - once you get rid of the MAGA leaders and followers - you get to re-write history completely.

Russian Hoax?                      No, No, No - Trump was a Russian Agent!
Ukraine Corruption?              No, No, No  - Not Joe Biden!  It was Trump along and he's gone now!
Covid?                                 No, No, No   - Not China!  It was Trump's fault all along!

Just think - the Great Patriots, Adam Schiff and Jerry Nadler were right all along.

Welcome Totalitarians - NO ROOM FOR DISSENT.

Cubs I think I found you @ 26:45 in this video. Your 30 seconds of fame!

https://m.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=1093705347748079&ref=watch_permalink&_rdr

:D
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 03:55:46 AM
Easy to see Trump has had a mental breakdown. But I'm starting to worry about Cubs...

Not to worry. I'll be in hiding.

You, Viking, and RTF just get that "Night of the Long Knives"  purge going before it's to late. It worked wonders to consolidating Hitler's power.

It will work for you too.

Remember: The only thing that matters is propaganda and total power.

Cubs, i am not sure what your point is.

Nobody is going to do anything TO Trump.

Now when Trump does bat shit crazy things then there will be consequences. Trump is doing it to himself.

When he calls a rally, lies to and then incites the mob, instructs them where to go (when he knows congress will be in full session), to use force and then lots of people die (including law enforcement) and even more are injured (including more than 50 law enforcement), congress is ransacked, politicians including VP are put directly in harms way and then evacuated, a few bombs are planted, watches gleefully on TV, and then tells them ‘we love you; you are very special’ then, yes, there WILL be consequences for his words and actions.
- Like a bunch of his closest staffers resigning.
- Like a shitload of new Republican politicians saying his lies and behaviour is undermining American Democracy and it has to stop.
- Like all social media sites taking the unprecedented step of banning him for inciting a riot and to prevent more of the same.

What happens to Trump moving forward will be of his own doing. It will be the consequence of his words and actions. And that is called justice.


If you held  your Loser-Cheat-to-Win Democratic Leadership to the same standard last summer - we would have far less deaths, destroyed businesses and destroyed lives in this country.

Law and Order is very convinient to you hypocrites when it suits you.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 08, 2021, 05:12:22 AM
Well, the sad man’s presidency effectively ended when he presented his neutered self on TV last night.

At the end of it all, the disgusting “human being’s” actions finally pushed even his closest allies into turning against him.

What a final chapter to a not-so-great Presidency.

Pathetic and a disgrace.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: SharperDingaan on January 08, 2021, 05:31:36 AM
Sounds like Trump was taken to the woodshed.

More to the point - a recorded video only, concurrent with shut-down of all his social media accounts, and released by somebody else in the WH.
To most, he's not in 'control' anymore.

SD
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: no_free_lunch on January 08, 2021, 06:12:30 AM
I remember when antifa was fighting nightly with the cops in Portland. I posted about these punks throwing bombs at cops and you guys thought it was funny. I'm not buying your feigned concern here. The shoe is on the other foot , Republicans have the blueprint, it's not their government so who cares.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 08, 2021, 06:20:45 AM
I remember when antifa was fighting nightly with the cops in Portland. I posted about these punks throwing bombs at cops and you guys thought it was funny. I'm not buying your feigned concern here. The shoe is on the other foot , Republicans have the blueprint, it's not their government so who cares.

“You guys thought it was funny”

I don’t know who you are referring to, but I would advise not looking at politics as a team sport and painting everyone with the same brush.

Just because 1 lib said they “thought it was funny” doesn’t mean every person on here who has expressed disapproval of Trump did so. There were many condemnations of violence/looting/fires.

We’re not talking about the Yankees vs Red Sox.

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 08, 2021, 06:21:59 AM
Sounds like Trump was taken to the woodshed.

More to the point - a recorded video only, concurrent with shut-down of all his social media accounts, and released by somebody else in the WH.
To most, he's not in 'control' anymore.

SD

Neutered and put in the time out corner, plain and simple.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 06:26:24 AM
Funny but also sad and absolutely true....

"Imagine if Ashli Babbitt was black and got killed by a white U.S. Capitol police officer. The media would have their puppet Lebron James threaten to go on strike and not play anymore basketball games until the police officer who killed her is charged with murder. Not one Congressman or Senator has come out publicly to even call for an in-depth investigation into why Ashli Babbitt was targeted and killed. There is no sign that any kind of murder investigation is taking place."
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 08, 2021, 06:33:30 AM
cwericb, why dont you go fetch us another one of those covid updates....or are you winding down that operation because hero is taking office soon? Sanjeev mentioned earlier that Trump killed all the old people in nursing homes, can you get me that tally again?

I don’t know what that has to do with Trump goons attacking the seat of your own government. I guess deflection is your last resort.

One would think you would be hesitant to bring Covid up considering you have been so wrong about Covid-19. You remember saying you would be concerned if the cases were more than the fingers on your hands? And your comments about how it was no big deal because it was only old people Covid was killing? Are you still maintaining that Covid-19 is just like the flu?

But since you ask, your country has killed off somewhere over 365,000 of your own citizens. Makes Pearl Harbor (2,400), 911 (3,000), Viet Nam (60,000), etc, pale in comparison. Total US deaths in WWII was “only” 292,000. Do you still think Covid is not that big a deal?

And because your country has made such a F-up of controlling the problem, you end up exporting it to other countries. Its like the irresponsible neighbour who never cuts his grass and lets his property run down effecting the whole neighbourhood. Because Canada is your largest trading partner, we are in the unfortunate situation where you also send us Covid along with every truck load we bring in every day.

And if you are asking for an update from where I live, here you go:
Unlike your advice, our Province has been very proactive in controlling the virus. While our third largest industry, tourism has been devastated, real estate, construction and other industries have been booming to the point people from other areas are buying homes here sight unseen..

You seem to be a numbers guy so here are our numbers. We have a population of 160,000. Yes relatively small, but if we apply US stats to that number we should have about 175 deaths by Covid and thousands of hospitalizations. At this point, we have had a total of about just 100 cases. We have zero deaths and have yet to have a single  hospitalization. How are you guys doing?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 06:48:57 AM
I remember when antifa was fighting nightly with the cops in Portland. I posted about these punks throwing bombs at cops and you guys thought it was funny. I'm not buying your feigned concern here. The shoe is on the other foot , Republicans have the blueprint, it's not their government so who cares.

It really wasn't that bad was it?  I mean it was only 30 or 40 days straight? 

Plus, several times they tried to completely burn down the Federal Building with people inside.

Oh, but according to the board hypocrites - it's "social justice" and for a "noble cause".

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 07:06:39 AM
cwericb, why dont you go fetch us another one of those covid updates....or are you winding down that operation because hero is taking office soon? Sanjeev mentioned earlier that Trump killed all the old people in nursing homes, can you get me that tally again?

I don’t know what that has to do with Trump goons attacking the seat of your own government. I guess deflection is your last resort.

One would think you would be hesitant to bring Covid up considering you have been so wrong about Covid-19. You remember saying you would be concerned if the cases were more than the fingers on your hands? And your comments about how it was no big deal because it was only old people Covid was killing? Are you still maintaining that Covid-19 is just like the flu?

But since you ask, your country has killed off somewhere over 365,000 of your own citizens. Makes Pearl Harbor (2,400), 911 (3,000), Viet Nam (60,000), etc, pale in comparison. Total US deaths in WWII was “only” 292,000. Do you still think Covid is not that big a deal?

And because your country has made such a F-up of controlling the problem, you end up exporting it to other countries. Its like the irresponsible neighbour who never cuts his grass and lets his property run down effecting the whole neighbourhood. Because Canada is your largest trading partner, we are in the unfortunate situation where you also send us Covid along with every truck load we bring in every day.

And if you are asking for an update from where I live, here you go:
Unlike your advice, our Province has been very proactive in controlling the virus. While our third largest industry, tourism has been devastated, real estate, construction and other industries have been booming to the point people from other areas are buying homes here sight unseen..

You seem to be a numbers guy so here are our numbers. We have a population of 160,000. Yes relatively small, but if we apply US stats to that number we should have about 175 deaths by Covid and thousands of hospitalizations. At this point, we have had a total of about just 100 cases. We have zero deaths and have yet to have a single  hospitalization. How are you guys doing?

Thanks. I always appreciate some good morning comedy. Looking forward to next weeks update.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 08, 2021, 07:27:37 AM
Sorry, Was it was beyond your comprehension level? I could give you more details if it would help you out.

You did ask the question though.

Jeez, no reason to be snarky just because you didn't like the answer..

I know, I know you still think that pesky Covid Flu thing is really funny. Did you miss the part that went, "How are you guys doing"?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 08, 2021, 07:34:13 AM
I think it's possible we'll look back someday and miss the peaceful times of Trump's presidency. And no, I'm not kidding.

In other words, I don't think Trump is the cause of all of these issues but he is a symptom of them. His leaving doesn't get rid of the cause (political correctness, overall corruption, wealth inequality, hallowing of the middle class, etc).
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 07:36:26 AM
I just think one would have to be a complete fool to think that an individual person, or a country, is responsible for a virus. I mean maybe if it was found that someone in the lab released it...sure. Or that a country purposely created it...sure. But otherwise? Pretty much par for the course for you.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 08, 2021, 07:59:46 AM
No one said one country was responsible for the virus. Just that not taking serious steps to control the outbreak in the early days simply because it could have been difficult financially, is a selfish step when you share a 9,000 km border with another country who did take steps to control it as best they could. There are still 150,000 vehicles crossing into Canada per month. Pretty difficult to control the diesase from entering the country with that kind of traffic.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 08:05:01 AM
I think it's possible we'll look back someday and miss the peaceful times of Trump's presidency. And no, I'm not kidding.

In other words, I don't think Trump is the cause of all of these issues but he is a symptom of them. His leaving doesn't get rid of the cause (political correctness, overall corruption, wealth inequality, hallowing of the middle class, etc).

Couldn't agree more - when your opposition party is in the process of stripping the Bill of Rights from their political opponents - expect the
real patriots to fight back. Now that the Cheat-to-Win Democrats are gearing up for their phony show trials - they will establish their excuse
for crushing individual civil liberties that oppose their political views.

USA - meet the Soviet Union of the Democrats.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 08, 2021, 08:25:27 AM
" Cheat-to-Win Democrats"

REALLY? Cubs after all that has happened this week are you really still under that delusion? That is hard to believe that anyone still thinks this.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 08, 2021, 08:27:10 AM
I think it's possible we'll look back someday and miss the peaceful times of Trump's presidency. And no, I'm not kidding.
So you're saying Trump left the USA in poor condition rather than Making America Great Again (TM)?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 08, 2021, 08:45:41 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 09:07:59 AM
No one said one country was responsible for the virus. Just that not taking serious steps to control the outbreak in the early days simply because it could have been difficult financially, is a selfish step when you share a 9,000 km border with another country who did take steps to control it as best they could. There are still 150,000 vehicles crossing into Canada per month. Pretty difficult to control the diesase from entering the country with that kind of traffic.

Sounds like you could use a wall?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 08, 2021, 09:12:49 AM
I think it's possible we'll look back someday and miss the peaceful times of Trump's presidency. And no, I'm not kidding.
So you're saying Trump left the USA in poor condition rather than Making America Great Again (TM)?

I think Clinton left the US in poor condition. I think Trump made it worse though (as did Obama and Bush).

 
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 08, 2021, 09:15:35 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

If you want to understand how truly messed up Trump is all you have to do is listen to what he said at the rally on Wednesday and then late on Thursday in his taped 2 minute message. He clearly states his position on all the relevant topics (no need to listen to media sources..l just watch the source material :-). He is a walking contradiction, a trainwreck of a person and at this point in time delusional, completely unpredictable and dangerous. Lots of Republicans agree; this is not a partisan thing.

Also, if people want to debate BLM there are a bunch of other threads to do that on. Not sure what that has to do with Trump, his mob, the people who were injured and died, the elected officials and law enforecement people who were put in harms way - the shit show that happened in Washington.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 08, 2021, 09:16:33 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 08, 2021, 10:04:43 AM
I think it's possible we'll look back someday and miss the peaceful times of Trump's presidency. And no, I'm not kidding.
So you're saying Trump left the USA in poor condition rather than Making America Great Again (TM)?

I think Clinton left the US in poor condition. I think Trump made it worse though (as did Obama and Bush).
Clinton introduced a bubble in the stock market, which was not responsible. Also, they pushed a social agenda a bit too fast for most of America to come with them, also a bad idea, but you can't really say that the Clinton administration left us with that much of a headache.

The Bush administration inherited the aftermath of the bubble and 9/11 and the response was to print money and tell us to go shopping, so the bubble just reinflated, in a different area of the economy and it was very predictable that the aftermath would be worse than the first bubble. This bubble was so bad that I predicted at the time it would only take about 10 years until we were at risk of civil war from right wing militia types.

Why was I worried about the right wing twelve or thirteen years ago? Simple, it's a matter of numbers. There are more of them! There would be far more uneducated white male workers that were likely to be out of a job, demoralized and vulnerable to subversive messages. What I neglected to think about was how large the criminal element is on the left that would be attracted to a BLM type message and want to take it to a level of violence. So in fact both far right and far left became an issue. The truth is though that no matter how odious  you may find the left, they are not presently storming the Capital.

The Obama administration, on the other hand I would give pretty good points except for the following. First they promised things, or people thought/assumed they promised a social agenda that they never explicitly promised and/or never intended to pursue, that left some disappointed and demoralized. Others felt that Obama had gone too far on progressive social policies. Obama and his administration definitely made mistakes in dealing with Donald Trump and the risk of inflaming the nutcases on the right. We are all now paying for those mistakes.

Trump, is a narcissistic psychopath and a cult leader.

Biden claims to want to reunite the country. We have so much going for us, there are some of us who have learned a lesson. The future might be much brighter than you are giving credit for. We will need to address some really nutty crap from the left, hopefully Biden and the Democratic leadership will be up for the job. I believe that we have a better chance of making this bright future possible if we will all just let go of Trump, let the courts take care of him. The agenda of the right including much of The Trump administrations purported agenda is not the problem, but Trump, the Trump administration, and Trumpists are the problem.

Anyone who can't see that Trump is the problem at this point is on the wrong side of history and unless we see the end of the United States of America and the Trump flag flies over this land in the future, those who cling to Trump in the future may find that society does not have much tolerance for them.

Note: at the time I wasn't worried about the impact of social media to amplify the message and expand the message that far beyond nutcase militia and white supremacist types because there was not much of a model for that at the time. It was still early in social media and the Arab Spring would not show what was possible with regime change for at least another three years. As a result of social media those who stormed the capital and broke through police lines included elected state and local republican officials, and people from many walks of life. that likely would have never fallen prey to Trump's lies without social media.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 08, 2021, 10:19:04 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

The closest we have been to civil war in 160 years, and more American dying needlessly due to a pandemic than in previous wars, the president turning his own people against each other? There are many Americans who are terrified on a daily basis, because of Trump. Yep, sounds peaceful.

You claim to be a christian. As a christian, can you feel no empathy for the people who are suffering in America and believe that Trump and Trumpists are to blame? So many people have lost their jobs due to the pandemic, and some portion of that is unnecessary. So many people have lost their lives this year due to the pandemic and some portion was completely preventable with better leadership.

As for the people on the left, especially the extreme left, I don't agree with many them, I probably wouldn't want to spend time with them, I expect I will find myself in opposition to their beliefs and opinions, but even though I am very fortunate not to be in their position, I would like to end their pain for them. Anyone who can't feel that kind of compassion when it would be so easy to put aside, and try to deescalate the situation and work together with reasonable moderates, should not call themself a christian or even a good citizen in my opinion.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Xerxes on January 08, 2021, 10:33:38 AM
Thanks for the feedback Xerxes - at least civil and well done.

First of all - Iran is in the BUSINESS of EXPORTING terrorism throughout the region. The Saudis are not. Who ever said the Saudis or Turks were
saints - certainly not me.  But there is no question the ONLY expansionist power in the Middle East is Iran. Just ask Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iraq.
Tell me  - what Middle East country, besides the Persians are actively taking over their neighbors??
The Persians hate the Arabs. Why are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Emirates, etc - now allied with ISRAEL against an expansionist Iran??

Iran is EASILY the most dangerous country in the Middle East - no contest.

So you think it's just great that Obama/Kerry FUNDED their terrorist expansion?  Sorry - agree to disagree here.

Russia:  It's pretty simple. Just check the record. Russia invaded Crimea after Obama drew one of his "red lines".
When the Ukrainians asked for Anti-tank missiles - Obama pussyed out and refused. But he did give them blankets and MRE's.
Trump's first act with Ukraine was to give them missiles. You must have missed it.

North Korea:  What's the little tyrant done during Trump's term. Answer: Nothing - why?  Trump laid down savage sanctions. Kim is not stupid.
Kim saw Trump kill 200 Russians in Syria, when Putin got out of line. Kim saw Trump use the MOAB in Afghanistan - and decided he didn't need
any of that.

So we can just agree to disagree.

cubsfan,
You are entirely correct that Iran is in the business of exporting its revolution. No argument there. They should be focused on developing the nation, it has been a few lost decades. My issue is about your labeling.

If you were a Yemenis and just saw your family incinerated before your very eyes by a Saudi F-15 armed with bombs exported from the U.S. You will feel terrorized when you are at the receiving end of a laser guided bomb. No matter how cool is the visuals. I understand you have been conditioned to see terrorism as whatever narrative is going against U.S. foreign policy. In my book, I like to ask the victims (ALL victims) how they felt when they get their lives shattered. How did the Vietnamese felt with B-52s dropping more tonnage on them, than they did on Germany and Japan combined. I bet they felt terrorized. To me, that is double standard. 

The double standard and hypocrisy that you and others are talking about here (how Trump is portrayed) is not wrong. You are atleast 80% correct about the left-leaning U.S. media and their latte-sipping Easter coast backers. It is just that it is the first time i have seen Americans tasting how they themselves treat the rest of the world with their double standard.

As far as Iran is concerned, it is more complicated than that. You need to go back to the 1980s, when Iraq (the other country) largely funded by the very same Gulf nations you just mentioned waged a war, backed by both superpowers. (name me 1 major conflict when a country had both superpowers against it).

The result:  a country led by a now-older group of people whose point of view was shaped in that war. Who are determined to stay in power, who are completely insecure (older peoples usually are) and will fight to stay in power. The sanctions has been a blessing for them and has entrenched them even more (unforutnately republicans leaders are too stupid to understand this). The revolutionary and interference is a reaction to ensure that nothing like the 1980-88 ever happens again. They learned from the U.S. that it is best to fight your wars elsewhere than in home front. Looking south to the Persian Gulf, they see the U.S. Fifth Fleet based in Bahrain, they see Saudi Arabia one of the the biggest weapon importer looking at it directly. I think that once that generation of leaders in Iran go away, we can have better relation with Tehran.
 
Which country are actively were working to take over their neighbors: Google search all countries where Emirates (in Africa, Yemen, Libya), Turkey (in Libya, Syria) and Saudi have military operations. The most obvious one is Saudi going after Yemen and Qatar. But not doubt you will say that it is reaction to Iran. But we wont get into that circular logic. They are PLENTY ! But you will not be convinced because of your double standard.

It shouldn't hard to understand, every country is protecting its perceived interests.

We (Canadians) and you (i am guessing you are Americans) are blessed to be geographically located in a continent where we have two larges oceans at our sides. Not all countries are that lucky.   


Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 08, 2021, 10:41:11 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

The closest we have been to civil war in 160 years, and more American dying needlessly due to a pandemic than in previous wars, the president turning his own people against each other? There are many Americans who are terrified on a daily basis, because of Trump. Yep, sounds peaceful.

You claim to be a christian. As a christian, can you feel no empathy for the people who are suffering in America and believe that Trump and Trumpists are to blame? So many people have lost their jobs due to the pandemic, and some portion of that is unnecessary. So many people have lost their lives this year due to the pandemic and some portion was completely preventable with better leadership.

As for the people on the left, especially the extreme left, I don't agree with many them, I probably wouldn't want to spend time with them, I expect I will find myself in opposition to their beliefs and opinions, but even though I am very fortunate not to be in their position, I would like to end their pain for them. Anyone who can't feel that kind of compassion when it would be so easy to put aside, and try to deescalate the situation and work together with reasonable moderates, should not call themself a christian or even a good citizen in my opinion.

I don't think we've seen the worst of it yet.  The wealth gap continues to widen.  This is not a partisan issue, but people need somebody to blame.  Blacks blame whites, republicans blame democrats, etc. People don't understand why Bezos and Musk are worth so much money while they are losing their jobs.  You can understand why people with little to lose attach themselves to extreme movements.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 08, 2021, 10:52:47 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

And you were hiding under your sheets under Obama? Your last sentence is hypocritical and basically what you accuse libs of doing.

Yeah, it's "the best it can get" the past 4 years. You know, pandemics causing masks/lockdowns, burning stores, tear gas, rioters interrupting Joint Sessions of Congress. The best 4 years ever! Unlike those Obama years when football players took a knee!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 08, 2021, 10:56:18 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

The closest we have been to civil war in 160 years, and more American dying needlessly due to a pandemic than in previous wars, the president turning his own people against each other? There are many Americans who are terrified on a daily basis, because of Trump. Yep, sounds peaceful.

You claim to be a christian. As a christian, can you feel no empathy for the people who are suffering in America and believe that Trump and Trumpists are to blame? So many people have lost their jobs due to the pandemic, and some portion of that is unnecessary. So many people have lost their lives this year due to the pandemic and some portion was completely preventable with better leadership.

As for the people on the left, especially the extreme left, I don't agree with many them, I probably wouldn't want to spend time with them, I expect I will find myself in opposition to their beliefs and opinions, but even though I am very fortunate not to be in their position, I would like to end their pain for them. Anyone who can't feel that kind of compassion when it would be so easy to put aside, and try to deescalate the situation and work together with reasonable moderates, should not call themself a christian or even a good citizen in my opinion.

I don't think we've seen the worst of it yet.  The wealth gap continues to widen.  This is not a partisan issue, but people need somebody to blame.  Blacks blame whites, republicans blame democrats, etc. People don't understand why Bezos and Musk are worth so much money while they are losing their jobs.  You can understand why people with little to lose attach themselves to extreme movements.

This is true, the worst may be yet to come. Hope it's not. In my view, it's the trickle down Republican economic farce along with liberal globalization policies that have caused the divide.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 08, 2021, 11:02:59 AM
I don't think we've seen the worst of it yet.  The wealth gap continues to widen.  This is not a partisan issue, but people need somebody to blame.  Blacks blame whites, republicans blame democrats, etc. People don't understand why Bezos and Musk are worth so much money while they are losing their jobs.  You can understand why people with little to lose attach themselves to extreme movements.
Yes, I didn't say it would be easy.

The USA's future is highly uncertain and highly path dependent.

Negotiating a way to preserve freedom of speech in the age of social media and other technology may be the hardest part of all, but I am guessing that Democrats AND Republicans cowering in their chambers probably has a way of focusing their thoughts even if some Republicans are now trying to project a different image after soiling their pants in front of their colleagues.

Kevin McCarthy was supposedly screaming at Trump and begging him to save them, and then went on to vote against certifying the vote. Is that theater? Or did he really learn nothing in the process.

It's now coming out that Trump's staff were horrified that he couldn't understand why his staff weren't gleeful watching the Capitol ransacked the way he was. His own staff is now saying that he was enjoying the show and didn't want it to end. The number of people who persist in claiming he is not a psychopath is diminishing rapidly inside the White House. The fact that he didn't do what he could to stop it because he was enjoying it may put everyone in greater legal jeopardy than even what he did on the rally stage that day.

Trump and his coterie of dirty tricksters are just the single biggest threat, there will be others to deal with simultaneously and afterwards.

By the way, some of the Trumpists who rampaged the capital are calling the Darwin Award winner a martyr and vowing to lay siege to the Capitol again tomorrow.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 11:36:37 AM
No one said one country was responsible for the virus. Just that not taking serious steps to control the outbreak in the early days simply because it could have been difficult financially, is a selfish step when you share a 9,000 km border with another country who did take steps to control it as best they could. There are still 150,000 vehicles crossing into Canada per month. Pretty difficult to control the diesase from entering the country with that kind of traffic.

Sounds like you could use a wall?

Oh, shit...don't go there...He's busted again!   LMAO

Poor CW
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 11:41:39 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

Brilliant!  Exactly - the natural state of the world is to be a war, unfortunately.  This country has been one of the best places in the world for decades.

Now with the Totalitarian Demcratic Regime coming into power - this will be threaten. Last summer was a small preview these losers encouraged, funded and condoned.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 08, 2021, 11:53:29 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

Brilliant!  Exactly - the natural state of the world is to be a war, unfortunately.  This country has been one of the best places in the world for decades.

Now with the Totalitarian Demcratic Regime coming into power - this will be threaten. Last summer was a small preview these losers encouraged, funded and condoned.

(https://grist-org.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/grist.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/obama-laughing.jpg?w=600)
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 08, 2021, 11:57:37 AM
Here's an update on some stupid libtards who just don't like Trump.

The Wall Street Journal editorial board calls for Trump to resign immediately:

Quote
Donald Trump’s Final Days
The best outcome would be for him to resign to spare the U.S. another impeachment fight.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-final-days-11610062773?mod=opinion_lead_pos1
Quote
It is best for everyone, himself included, if he goes away quietly.

I guess there are some downsides to "The Art of the Deal":

Quote
Mitch McConnell reportedly never wants to speak to Trump again after the Capitol riot
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mitch-mcconnell-reportedly-never-wants-to-speak-to-trump-again-after-the-capitol-riots/ar-BB1cArJg

Also, it appears that Mitch McConnell and Mike Pence are not the only Trump supporters who now realize that Trump threw them under the bus on Wednesday. This may be the best of all:

Quote
‘Coward’: MAGA internet turns on Trump
The president acknowledged his defeat and urged for political reconciliation. His online faithful didn’t take it well.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/08/maga-internet-turns-on-trump-456490

I think it would be more accurate to say Trump threw them under the bus and blamed them to try to save himself from prosecution.
 
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 12:06:00 PM
Thanks for the feedback Xerxes - at least civil and well done.

First of all - Iran is in the BUSINESS of EXPORTING terrorism throughout the region. The Saudis are not. Who ever said the Saudis or Turks were
saints - certainly not me.  But there is no question the ONLY expansionist power in the Middle East is Iran. Just ask Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iraq.
Tell me  - what Middle East country, besides the Persians are actively taking over their neighbors??
The Persians hate the Arabs. Why are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Emirates, etc - now allied with ISRAEL against an expansionist Iran??

Iran is EASILY the most dangerous country in the Middle East - no contest.

So you think it's just great that Obama/Kerry FUNDED their terrorist expansion?  Sorry - agree to disagree here.

Russia:  It's pretty simple. Just check the record. Russia invaded Crimea after Obama drew one of his "red lines".
When the Ukrainians asked for Anti-tank missiles - Obama pussyed out and refused. But he did give them blankets and MRE's.
Trump's first act with Ukraine was to give them missiles. You must have missed it.

North Korea:  What's the little tyrant done during Trump's term. Answer: Nothing - why?  Trump laid down savage sanctions. Kim is not stupid.
Kim saw Trump kill 200 Russians in Syria, when Putin got out of line. Kim saw Trump use the MOAB in Afghanistan - and decided he didn't need
any of that.

So we can just agree to disagree.

cubsfan,
You are entirely correct that Iran is in the business of exporting its revolution. No argument there. They should be focused on developing the nation, it has been a few lost decades. My issue is about your labeling.

If you were a Yemenis and just saw your family incinerated before your very eyes by a Saudi F-15 armed with bombs exported from the U.S. You will feel terrorized when you are at the receiving end of a laser guided bomb. No matter how cool is the visuals. I understand you have been conditioned to see terrorism as whatever narrative is going against U.S. foreign policy. In my book, I like to ask the victims (ALL victims) how they felt when they get their lives shattered. How did the Vietnamese felt with B-52s dropping more tonnage on them, than they did on Germany and Japan combined. I bet they felt terrorized. To me, that is double standard. 

The double standard and hypocrisy that you and others are talking about here (how Trump is portrayed) is not wrong. You are atleast 80% correct about the left-leaning U.S. media and their latte-sipping Easter coast backers. It is just that it is the first time i have seen Americans tasting how they themselves treat the rest of the world with their double standard.

As far as Iran is concerned, it is more complicated than that. You need to go back to the 1980s, when Iraq (the other country) largely funded by the very same Gulf nations you just mentioned waged a war, backed by both superpowers. (name me 1 major conflict when a country had both superpowers against it).

The result:  a country led by a now-older group of people whose point of view was shaped in that war. Who are determined to stay in power, who are completely insecure (older peoples usually are) and will fight to stay in power. The sanctions has been a blessing for them and has entrenched them even more (unforutnately republicans leaders are too stupid to understand this). The revolutionary and interference is a reaction to ensure that nothing like the 1980-88 ever happens again. They learned from the U.S. that it is best to fight your wars elsewhere than in home front. Looking south to the Persian Gulf, they see the U.S. Fifth Fleet based in Bahrain, they see Saudi Arabia one of the the biggest weapon importer looking at it directly. I think that once that generation of leaders in Iran go away, we can have better relation with Tehran.
 
Which country are actively were working to take over their neighbors: Google search all countries where Emirates (in Africa, Yemen, Libya), Turkey (in Libya, Syria) and Saudi have military operations. The most obvious one is Saudi going after Yemen and Qatar. But not doubt you will say that it is reaction to Iran. But we wont get into that circular logic. They are PLENTY ! But you will not be convinced because of your double standard.

It shouldn't hard to understand, every country is protecting its perceived interests.

We (Canadians) and you (i am guessing you are Americans) are blessed to be geographically located in a continent where we have two larges oceans at our sides. Not all countries are that lucky.

Ok - great post - and I learned a lot.

I still do not buy that Iran is NOT the biggest threat to stability in the Middle East. That Iran is NOT on a quest to expand their Persian empire
and they despise the Arabs. Yes, I am well aware of Saddam's aggression against the Iranians - so good point. I fail to understand their
takeover of Lebanon - except to crush Israel.  So you've got a hard sell there.

I'll do some work on Turkey (yup, they worry me), the Emirates and Saudi's - thanks for that.

I've met and worked with a number of Persians and they are great people. As far as those in power - smoking assholes like Qassem Soleimani
was a brilliant move - unlike Obama with his ridiculous Nobel Prize and olive branch approach. You don't deal with an expansionist terrorist
nation, like Iran with an olive branch. They only understand and respect strength.

Obama's idiotic moves cause a loss of deterrence, which Trump quickly reclaimed. Trump was not afraid of using the MOAB or smoking 200
Russians in Syria - right in the Taliban's face or Putin's face.

It's the loss of deterrence that leads to war. Moron Obama never understood that.

Just ask Neville Chamberlain and Adolf Hitler.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 08, 2021, 12:08:09 PM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

And you were hiding under your sheets under Obama? Your last sentence is hypocritical and basically what you accuse libs of doing.

Yeah, it's "the best it can get" the past 4 years. You know, pandemics causing masks/lockdowns, burning stores, tear gas, rioters interrupting Joint Sessions of Congress. The best 4 years ever! Unlike those Obama years when football players took a knee!


Are you hiding under your sheets under Trump? What, exactly, was Trump forcing people to do?

I didn't say it was the "best it can get." I said it's closer to that than "it can't get an worse." Do you not agree?

Read, your reply is more thoughtful then Dalal's, so I'll reply to that later. ;)

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 08, 2021, 12:12:06 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/LizAnnSonders/status/1347157427960111105/photo/1


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErIQijVXcAEIUUQ?format=jpg&name=large)

Herein lies a lot of the problem.

So, the "leaders" of this country let this happen. Manufacturing jobs go out (hurts the middle class). They then lower interest rates and taking on large amount of debt (which helps the wealthy keeping the economy afloat). If the middle class suffers, the Fed/government shouldn't insulate the wealthy. I'd love to see how well the wealthy would be doing if we ran brought up rates to a historical level.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 12:17:18 PM
^ You can certainly blame that problem on Democrats and Republicans equally - they gave a shit about those job losses.

Why do you think so much of the country loves Trump?   Because he was the first to stand up to these assholes and label China as the problem.

And they HATE him for it - disrupted their cozy little game - "a managed decline of the US" - the inevitable rise of China above and beyond the US.

Trump understood it did NOT have to be that way - and the people love him for it - unlike all the finance jerkoffs whose jobs would never be exported.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 08, 2021, 12:26:20 PM

Herein lies a lot of the problem.

So, the "leaders" of this country let this happen. Manufacturing jobs go out (hurts the middle class). They then lower interest rates and taking on large amount of debt (which helps the wealthy keeping the economy afloat). If the middle class suffers, the Fed/government shouldn't insulate the wealthy. I'd love to see how well the wealthy would be doing if we ran brought up rates to a historical level.

Yes the decline in US GDP over the last 20 years has been horrible. Check out this graph showing the collapse in US GDP due to trade:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=US
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 08, 2021, 12:31:22 PM
GDP rising does not mean there isn't sharp inequality. If billionaires get richer and everyone else poorer, GDP can rise, even on a per capita basis.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 08, 2021, 12:38:44 PM

Herein lies a lot of the problem.

So, the "leaders" of this country let this happen. Manufacturing jobs go out (hurts the middle class). They then lower interest rates and taking on large amount of debt (which helps the wealthy keeping the economy afloat). If the middle class suffers, the Fed/government shouldn't insulate the wealthy. I'd love to see how well the wealthy would be doing if we ran brought up rates to a historical level.

Yes the decline in US GDP over the last 20 years has been horrible. Check out this graph showing the collapse in US GDP due to trade:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=US

If you measure against the increase in debt, I'd imagine the GDP growth isn't that remarkable.



Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 12:47:09 PM
I've had the (dis)pleasure of being involved with a company who in 2010 or so had a market cap of $165M with no debt. In 2021 they had a market cap of around $200M with $300M in debt. They like to boast about how much they've grown and evolved. But I dont think anyone is much off except a select few...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: dwy000 on January 08, 2021, 01:01:34 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/LizAnnSonders/status/1347157427960111105/photo/1


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErIQijVXcAEIUUQ?format=jpg&name=large)

Herein lies a lot of the problem.

So, the "leaders" of this country let this happen. Manufacturing jobs go out (hurts the middle class). They then lower interest rates and taking on large amount of debt (which helps the wealthy keeping the economy afloat). If the middle class suffers, the Fed/government shouldn't insulate the wealthy. I'd love to see how well the wealthy would be doing if we ran brought up rates to a historical level.

What's your point here, that trade is bad???  Well paid manufacturing jobs are a historical relic.  The reason China took over the role as the world's manufacturer is because they were able to do it much, much cheaper price.  That's just efficiency and it's not coming back.  USA will never be the low cost manufacturer and consumers will never pay high prices just for a "made in America" logo.  $15 minimum wages with health insurance and social security taxes do not result in low prices for manufactured goods.  It results in mechanization and cross border trade.  Trade is here to stay.

China will pass the US in terms of Global GDP not because they are more efficient but because they have almost 5x the population. 
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 08, 2021, 01:05:27 PM

Herein lies a lot of the problem.

So, the "leaders" of this country let this happen. Manufacturing jobs go out (hurts the middle class). They then lower interest rates and taking on large amount of debt (which helps the wealthy keeping the economy afloat). If the middle class suffers, the Fed/government shouldn't insulate the wealthy. I'd love to see how well the wealthy would be doing if we ran brought up rates to a historical level.

Yes the decline in US GDP over the last 20 years has been horrible. Check out this graph showing the collapse in US GDP due to trade:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=US

If you measure against the increase in debt, I'd imagine the GDP growth isn't that remarkable.
Ah, so you are a fiscal conservative. I assume you did not support Trump, who has gone bankrupt six times and is in the process of going bankrupt for the seventh time as we speak? This is generous, he is likely already bankrupt and is benefiting from forbearance and grift.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/were-watching-trumps-7th-bankruptcy-unfold-171903858.html

Look at these amazing decreases in the deficit as a percent of GDP under Obama, and the huge increases in the deficit under Trump. Mismanagement has its costs. See the attachment from St. Louis Fed.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFSGDA188S#0
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 08, 2021, 01:10:51 PM

Herein lies a lot of the problem.

So, the "leaders" of this country let this happen. Manufacturing jobs go out (hurts the middle class). They then lower interest rates and taking on large amount of debt (which helps the wealthy keeping the economy afloat). If the middle class suffers, the Fed/government shouldn't insulate the wealthy. I'd love to see how well the wealthy would be doing if we ran brought up rates to a historical level.

Yes the decline in US GDP over the last 20 years has been horrible. Check out this graph showing the collapse in US GDP due to trade:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=US

If you measure against the increase in debt, I'd imagine the GDP growth isn't that remarkable.
Ah, so you are a fiscal conservative. I assume you did not support Trump, who has gone bankrupt six times and is in the process of going bankrupt for the seventh time as we speak? This is generous, he is likely already bankrupt and is benefiting from forbearance and grift.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/were-watching-trumps-7th-bankruptcy-unfold-171903858.html

Look at these amazing decreases in the deficit as a percent of GDP under Obama, and the huge increases in the deficit under Trump. Mismanagement has its costs. See the attachment from St. Louis Fed.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFSGDA188S#0

You're getting closer to the root cause.  Again not a partisan issue.  Clinton gets a pass because of a raging bull economy was the backdrop of his presidency, but since Greenspan the fed has enabled irresponsible spending and deficits.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 08, 2021, 01:15:13 PM
What's your point here, that trade is bad???  Well paid manufacturing jobs are a historical relic.  The reason China took over the role as the world's manufacturer is because they were able to do it much, much cheaper price.  That's just efficiency and it's not coming back.  USA will never be the low cost manufacturer and consumers will never pay high prices just for a "made in America" logo.  $15 minimum wages with health insurance and social security taxes do not result in low prices for manufactured goods.  It results in mechanization and cross border trade.  Trade is here to stay.

China will pass the US in terms of Global GDP not because they are more efficient but because they have almost 5x the population.
Awww.  :(

You jumped straight to the punchline, DWY. This was going to be so much fun to drag out.  ;)

Actually by many measures, manufacturing has increased in the USA, the difference is that we do more, cheaper, with fewer people. So measuring by cost or price does not fully recognize the the actual output. There is such deflation in manufactured good that it looks like we are producing less, because we are producing more and selling at a lower price.

GDP is notoriously bad at accounting for technological improvements for example. It is also primarily useful as a measure of aggregate activity and not necessarily that useful in the context that Paul intended it.

A great example is that Trump (and even AOC) droned on and on about coal. Well you could increase coal production dramatically but you probably aren't going to increase coal jobs due to technology and mechanization.

Also, China is going to be able to make more rapid progress than us because they are so far behind us and it is much easier to make progress on that part of the curve, there's not much anybody can do about that. Plus why does it even matter, this is just some sort of corrupt form of envy and I can't imagine why spending time on envy does anyone any good.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 08, 2021, 01:16:33 PM
You're getting closer to the root cause.  Again not a partisan issue.  Clinton gets a pass because of a raging bull economy was the backdrop of his presidency, but since Greenspan the fed has enabled irresponsible spending and deficits.
Good catch.
"The Maestro" my tuchus. Don't get me started.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 08, 2021, 01:33:45 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/LizAnnSonders/status/1347157427960111105/photo/1


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErIQijVXcAEIUUQ?format=jpg&name=large)

Herein lies a lot of the problem.

So, the "leaders" of this country let this happen. Manufacturing jobs go out (hurts the middle class). They then lower interest rates and taking on large amount of debt (which helps the wealthy keeping the economy afloat). If the middle class suffers, the Fed/government shouldn't insulate the wealthy. I'd love to see how well the wealthy would be doing if we ran brought up rates to a historical level.

What's your point here, that trade is bad???  Well paid manufacturing jobs are a historical relic.  The reason China took over the role as the world's manufacturer is because they were able to do it much, much cheaper price.  That's just efficiency and it's not coming back.  USA will never be the low cost manufacturer and consumers will never pay high prices just for a "made in America" logo.  $15 minimum wages with health insurance and social security taxes do not result in low prices for manufactured goods.  It results in mechanization and cross border trade.  Trade is here to stay.

China will pass the US in terms of Global GDP not because they are more efficient but because they have almost 5x the population.

I don't know if trade is good or bad. I suppose it's both depending on which side you're on.

I mean, is "free trade" fair if Chinese firms pay their employees significantly less, with far less regulation and far less environmental restrictions?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 08, 2021, 01:37:12 PM

Herein lies a lot of the problem.

So, the "leaders" of this country let this happen. Manufacturing jobs go out (hurts the middle class). They then lower interest rates and taking on large amount of debt (which helps the wealthy keeping the economy afloat). If the middle class suffers, the Fed/government shouldn't insulate the wealthy. I'd love to see how well the wealthy would be doing if we ran brought up rates to a historical level.

Yes the decline in US GDP over the last 20 years has been horrible. Check out this graph showing the collapse in US GDP due to trade:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=US

If you measure against the increase in debt, I'd imagine the GDP growth isn't that remarkable.
Ah, so you are a fiscal conservative. I assume you did not support Trump, who has gone bankrupt six times and is in the process of going bankrupt for the seventh time as we speak? This is generous, he is likely already bankrupt and is benefiting from forbearance and grift.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/were-watching-trumps-7th-bankruptcy-unfold-171903858.html

Look at these amazing decreases in the deficit as a percent of GDP under Obama, and the huge increases in the deficit under Trump. Mismanagement has its costs. See the attachment from St. Louis Fed.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFSGDA188S#0

I'm of the opinion that the government should run a balanced budget over the course of a number of years (even if that meant less economic "growth"). That is far, far more sustainable and keeps politicians (more) honest.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Xerxes on January 08, 2021, 02:27:11 PM
Ok - great post - and I learned a lot.

I still do not buy that Iran is NOT the biggest threat to stability in the Middle East. That Iran is NOT on a quest to expand their Persian empire
and they despise the Arabs. Yes, I am well aware of Saddam's aggression against the Iranians - so good point. I fail to understand their
takeover of Lebanon - except to crush Israel.  So you've got a hard sell there.

I'll do some work on Turkey (yup, they worry me), the Emirates and Saudi's - thanks for that.

I've met and worked with a number of Persians and they are great people. As far as those in power - smoking assholes like Qassem Soleimani
was a brilliant move - unlike Obama with his ridiculous Nobel Prize and olive branch approach. You don't deal with an expansionist terrorist
nation, like Iran with an olive branch. They only understand and respect strength.

Obama's idiotic moves cause a loss of deterrence, which Trump quickly reclaimed. Trump was not afraid of using the MOAB or smoking 200
Russians in Syria - right in the Taliban's face or Putin's face.

It's the loss of deterrence that leads to war. Moron Obama never understood that.

Just ask Neville Chamberlain and Adolf Hitler.

I think the right way to frame it is to say that, Iran is a greatest threat to the Middle East status quo, simply because they are a revolutionary regime bent on disrupting the current status quo. And that is why it needs to be contained, because we (the West) are aligned with the status quo and do not want to deviate from it.

That said, Iran is not the only one pushing to disrupt, there is a reason why Qatar and Turkey are also very close ... and are both in odds with the rest of the region specially the Saudis. Qatar has been disrupting the Arab landscape (i.e. Arab spring) through its soft powers (Al Jazeera) and Turkey has been disrupting more directly. The two of them almost got Egypt, which then had a coup d'etat and reverted back to Saudi-led block. Qatar and Turkey don't make the news on here in the West as the ultimate villains', because they are both allies in the West. But disrupters they are. 

Western media portray the Iran-Saudi thing as a clash for Shia and Sunni or Persian vs. Arab, as a historic way to frame. That is not entirely true. Qataris are all Sunni and yet are close to Iran, because of the circumstances. Pre-1979 Iran was very close with Israel. Israel was at odds with the Saudis etc. but not anymore. Alliances shifts around all the time. The common theme however are Saudi, Turkey and Iran, which are the big three power blocks. And nothing is going to change these facts. And Israel is a military superpower, that has lots of inertia but not critical mass.

Obama had the right idea with Iran, but the wrong approach.
While Republicans are clueless with Iran. Like fools, for decades they tried to suffocate its economy, and it didn't do anything but to hurt the commoners and reinforce the hardliners.

On a more global scale, I would say that U.S. is a on long term relative decline when it comes to its foreign influence and that started since it got distracted with Iraq right after 9/11 (we just didn't know it at the time) and that disengagement has been amplified by the shale revolution. It matters not who sits in the White House, the trend is that of long term dis-engagement. Biden, the internationalist, might reverse by 1 step, but it will get 2 steps back after that.

On Trump, credit does go to him for breaking the taboo in middle eastern politics. The peace treaty between Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco, are entirely to be credited to him and Kushner. Of course, the peace treaty comes with consequence, but fact is we already spent decades with the status quo. It needed disruption.

Going back full circle to my first paragraph, Trump's and the revolutionary regime in Iran then seem to have something in common. They are/were both disruptors of the status quo, but just had different national interests.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 03:18:44 PM
^ Awesome - quite insightful into the Middle East cauldron. Thanks much Xerxes.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 03:30:06 PM

I don't know if trade is good or bad. I suppose it's both depending on which side you're on.



Trade is good - sometimes. Handing it to the Chinese on a silver plater is not. Telling the population "don't worry - this will work out just fine"
for the last 30 years is not good. That's what your politicians, Wall Street and economists did.

There is no reason to cede our economic superiority to China by allowing wholesale theft of US intellectual property AND our jobs.

Just because China has 5X the population does not pre-ordain them to be the #1 economic superpower in the world. That is TOTAL nonsense.

China has a huge energy problem, natural resource, food and water problem. China is nowhere close to US lead in technology, food, energy, education.
Those factors put China at a serious disadvantage in spite of the number of people we have.

Don't give up so easily.

All Trump did was wake America up to it's potential. And he woke the entire world up to the dangers of being increasingly dependent on China.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: rb on January 08, 2021, 03:30:44 PM
No one said one country was responsible for the virus. Just that not taking serious steps to control the outbreak in the early days simply because it could have been difficult financially, is a selfish step when you share a 9,000 km border with another country who did take steps to control it as best they could. There are still 150,000 vehicles crossing into Canada per month. Pretty difficult to control the diesase from entering the country with that kind of traffic.

Sounds like you could use a wall?
Are you guys paying?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: gary17 on January 08, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Company
Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump
By Twitter Inc.
Friday, 8 January 2021   
After close review of recent Tweets from the @realDonaldTrump account and the context around them — specifically how they are being received and interpreted on and off Twitter — we have permanently suspended the account due to the risk of further incitement of violence.

In the context of horrific events this week, we made it clear on Wednesday that additional violations of the Twitter Rules would potentially result in this very course of action. Our public interest framework exists to enable the public to hear from elected officials and world leaders directly. It is built on a principle that the people have a right to hold power to account in the open.

However, we made it clear going back years that these accounts are not above our rules entirely and cannot use Twitter to incite violence, among other things. We will continue to be transparent around our policies and their enforcement.

The below is a comprehensive analysis of our policy enforcement approach in this case.

Overview

On January 8, 2021, President Donald J. Trump tweeted:

“The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!”

Shortly thereafter, the President tweeted:

“To all of those who have asked, I will not be going to the Inauguration on January 20th.”

Due to the ongoing tensions in the United States, and an uptick in the global conversation in regards to the people who violently stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021, these two Tweets must be read in the context of broader events in the country and the ways in which the President’s statements can be mobilized by different audiences, including to incite violence, as well as in the context of the pattern of behavior from this account in recent weeks. After assessing the language in these Tweets against our Glorification of Violence policy, we have determined that these Tweets are in violation of the Glorification of Violence Policy and the user @realDonaldTrump should be immediately permanently suspended from the service.

Assessment

We assessed the two Tweets referenced above under our Glorification of Violence policy, which aims to prevent the glorification of violence that could inspire others to replicate violent acts and determined that they were highly likely to encourage and inspire people to replicate the criminal acts that took place at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021.

This determination is based on a number of factors, including:

As such, our determination is that the two Tweets above are likely to inspire others to replicate the violent acts that took place on January 6, 2021, and that there are multiple indicators that they are being received and understood as encouragement to do so.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 08, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
The democrats and tech oligarchs are overplaying their hand.  This will not end well.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: rb on January 08, 2021, 03:58:33 PM
That is great Gregmal!
As long as it doesn't affect you.
There could be putting all Jews and blacks in concentration camps or they could cancelled all elections in America and make trump emperor for life.
As long as you can live in your tiny 3000sq foot house, your kids are ok and you can go grocery shopping and trading stocks who cares, right?

Hey, I am with Gregmal here and my political opinion is quite different. I don‘t like what’s happening, but not much I can do about it. I went to work and tonight we are celebrating our sons birthday. Live goes on. There are things you can control and things you can’t and worrying about the latter  gives you nothing but ulcers.

And yes, if Jews or blacks or anyone else would have to go in concentration camps that would be a different story but that’s not happening.
There's a lot to this. It's hard to affect the life of the regular person. For most people (95%?) the political system and freedom doesn't matter. They would mostly do the same stuff day in day out. A lot of people here bitch about how horrible China is with their Communist Party and the lack of freedom and the constant monitoring, etc. But 95% of people are not affected at all by it and probably don't even care.

You that if Jews would have to go into a concentration camp it would be a different story. Why? It wouldn't affect most people (Jews are about 2% of the population). The day they would put the Jews in camps, people would go to work, the stock market would open, people would have birthday parties, etc. Unless you're one of the 2%. Then you would have a really bad day.

So if my country were to one day go from being a democracy to an autocracy I don't expect it would affect me much. I just care cause I kinda like the democracy thing. Personal preference.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 08, 2021, 04:15:00 PM

You that if Jews would have to go into a concentration camp it would be a different story. Why? It wouldn't affect most people (Jews are about 2% of the population). The day they would put the Jews in camps, people would go to work, the stock market would open, people would have birthday parties, etc. Unless you're one of the 2%. Then you would have a really bad day.

So if my country were to one day go from being a democracy to an autocracy I don't expect it would affect me much. I just care cause I kinda like the democracy thing. Personal preference.

Well, I come from a country where Jews went into concentration camps. Yes, you may be able to live a normal live under these circumstances (if you are not Jew) but it won’t be long, it is just matter until they come after you in some way.That is why fighting discrimination should really be considered a self interest whether it targets you directly or not.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 04:25:04 PM
If 2% of people were effected, or specifically, Jews were going to concentration camps, it would most certainly effect the normal person simply due to community effect. People know people, degrees of separation type stuff. Much different than a lot of the current drama, which is really just people who are paranoid/unnecessarily scared(cwercib, viking, RTF, etc), angry(protesters, rioters, insurrectionists, etc), and scheming(establishment politicians and academics). All of which is inspired preeminently from outlandish news coverage and fueled by social media. Much like republicans who constantly think the communist/socialist takeover is right around the corner, the academics who obsess over this idea of "threats to democracy" fail to realize the idea is much bigger in their heads than it is in terms of anything in real life. We've seen constant talk and statements similar to " I just care cause I kinda like the democracy thing" but the truth is its been boys who cried wolf since before Trump took office and yet here we are, perfectly fine. At which point they move the needle again to something that extends the goalposts like "well we wouldn't have made it much longer or whatever". For all the "talk" from both sides, living in America is pretty damn easy and good. Except maybe in NYC right now, but we cant win them all.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 04:44:37 PM
^ Scroll down a bit and its amusing how the swamp/establishment is totally rallying around all this. If Trumps goal was to break up the establishment, he left with it stronger and more cohesive than ever before. Not that this is news. They all hated him before, but now theyre breathing new life knowing he's gone.

Disappointing though to see people who turned the other way the past 6 months while rioters and insurrectionists burned down buildings, murdered people, ruined lives, and committed violent acts for little reason, NOW show some outrage because a protest goes near "a special building" and make our jokester "public servants" uncomfortable. Theyre beyond outraged...can they just come out and say fuck you average Joe? How dare you go near "this" building, the one that houses people getting paid $15k a month by the taxpayer to do nothing. Go down the street to the mom and pop shop and torch the motherfucker! Thats ok.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 08, 2021, 04:53:49 PM
If 2% of people were effected, or specifically, Jews were going to concentration camps, it would most certainly effect the normal person simply due to community effect. People know people, degrees of separation type stuff. Much different than a lot of the current drama, which is really just people who are paranoid/unnecessarily scared(cwercib, viking, RTF, etc), angry(protesters, rioters, insurrectionists, etc), and scheming(establishment politicians and academics). All of which is inspired preeminently from outlandish news coverage and fueled by social media. Much like republicans who constantly think the communist/socialist takeover is right around the corner, the academics who obsess over this idea of "threats to democracy" fail to realize the idea is much bigger in their heads than it is in terms of anything in real life. We've seen constant talk and statements similar to " I just care cause I kinda like the democracy thing" but the truth is its been boys who cried wolf since before Trump took office and yet here we are, perfectly fine. At which point they move the needle again to something that extends the goalposts like "well we wouldn't have made it much longer or whatever". For all the "talk" from both sides, living in America is pretty damn easy and good. Except maybe in NYC right now, but we cant win them all.

Greg, i am happy to debate ideas. If you want to bring my name into your posts then please reply to my posts and lets have a debate about facts. Or if your want to know what i think please ask and i am happy to give you my thoughts. I would love to do that.

But please, stop with the constant misrepresenting what i post and what i believe.

This board cannot devolve into some posters name calling and labelling other posters. From my perspective that is crossing the line and it needs to stop. It is a slippery slope and it rarely ends well.

This is the second time i have asked.

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: ShaiDardashti on January 08, 2021, 04:54:33 PM
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/capitol-riots-private-party/

Modified above to replace my prior speculation with what presently seems to be reliable (and verified) data.

^ Scroll down a bit and its amusing how the swamp/establishment is totally rallying around all this. If Trumps goal was to break up the establishment, he left with it stronger and more cohesive than ever before. Not that this is news. They all hated him before, but now theyre breathing new life knowing he's gone.

Disappointing though to see people who turned the other way the past 6 months while rioters and insurrectionists burned down buildings, murdered people, ruined lives, and committed violent acts for little reason, NOW show some outrage because a protest goes near "a special building" and make our jokester "public servants" uncomfortable. Theyre beyond outraged...can they just come out and say fuck you average Joe? How dare you go near "this" building, the one that houses people getting paid $15k a month by the taxpayer to do nothing. Go down the street to the mom and pop shop and torch the motherfucker! Thats ok.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 05:01:14 PM
If 2% of people were effected, or specifically, Jews were going to concentration camps, it would most certainly effect the normal person simply due to community effect. People know people, degrees of separation type stuff. Much different than a lot of the current drama, which is really just people who are paranoid/unnecessarily scared(cwercib, viking, RTF, etc), angry(protesters, rioters, insurrectionists, etc), and scheming(establishment politicians and academics). All of which is inspired preeminently from outlandish news coverage and fueled by social media. Much like republicans who constantly think the communist/socialist takeover is right around the corner, the academics who obsess over this idea of "threats to democracy" fail to realize the idea is much bigger in their heads than it is in terms of anything in real life. We've seen constant talk and statements similar to " I just care cause I kinda like the democracy thing" but the truth is its been boys who cried wolf since before Trump took office and yet here we are, perfectly fine. At which point they move the needle again to something that extends the goalposts like "well we wouldn't have made it much longer or whatever". For all the "talk" from both sides, living in America is pretty damn easy and good. Except maybe in NYC right now, but we cant win them all.

Greg, i am happy to debate ideas. If you want to bring my name into your posts then please reply to my posts and lets have a debate about facts. Or if your want to know what i think please ask and i am happy to give you my thoughts. I would love to do that.

But please, stop with the constant misrepresenting what i post and what i believe.

This board cannot devolve into some posters name calling and labelling other posters. From my perspective that is crossing the line and it needs to stop. It is a slippery slope and it rarely ends well.

This is the second time i have asked.

Not really, you have consistently for the past several years posted largely conspiratorial opinions/theories about what was going to happen to the US, to Trump, to democracy, etc...along with the others mentioned and quite a few more posters. Pretty much none of that has proven accurate, and if the grand "I knew it" was a one day protest at a building deemed more important because government people were there......then I dont know what to say.

After the grand event yesterday, today it was back to business as usual. Including more pointless political stunts about impeachment even though theres less than 2 weeks til inauguration, and non stop media talk continuing to incite and monetize discord.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: rb on January 08, 2021, 05:06:55 PM
Like it or not, the parliament is different than a Target or a courthouse or most other buildings.

That fact becomes clear if you invert things a bit. If a foreign agent broke into a courthouse there will maybe be some sanctions but mostly nobody would give much of a shit. If these guys that went into the capitol were foreign agents instead of Trumpers the US navy would already be bombing that country while the Air Force would be drawing up plans for how to REALLY bomb it and the approval for the action would be almost unanimous.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 05:10:28 PM
Gregmal, I genuinely admire your perspectives and insights. Below also crossed my radar, and (again) I have no idea if it's genuine or fake/conspiracy. Hopefully, it's the latter, as I picked up on a reference to a count-joke and jokes about a soldier, etc. I completely hope I'm entirely off-base.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXM6h9elyTY

And, while seemingly (and perhaps this is all entirely fake) at the above location:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/08/politics/mike-lee-tommy-tuberville-trump-misdialed-capitol-riot/index.html

Best case, yesterday was just bunch of disenfranchised folk spontaneously expressing individualized frustrations against the establishment.  Otherwise it might be Art of the Deal turned Gunboat Diplomacy...

^ Scroll down a bit and its amusing how the swamp/establishment is totally rallying around all this. If Trumps goal was to break up the establishment, he left with it stronger and more cohesive than ever before. Not that this is news. They all hated him before, but now theyre breathing new life knowing he's gone.

Disappointing though to see people who turned the other way the past 6 months while rioters and insurrectionists burned down buildings, murdered people, ruined lives, and committed violent acts for little reason, NOW show some outrage because a protest goes near "a special building" and make our jokester "public servants" uncomfortable. Theyre beyond outraged...can they just come out and say fuck you average Joe? How dare you go near "this" building, the one that houses people getting paid $15k a month by the taxpayer to do nothing. Go down the street to the mom and pop shop and torch the motherfucker! Thats ok.

Its possible, but its also unlikely we ever get an honest answer because there is an inherent bias and deliberate effort to skew what information people end up seeing. A perfect example is with the voter fraud. These people and networks spent so much time trying to control the narrative. There likely wasnt much that materialized, but there was 100% definitely a handful of instances where dead peoples votes were counted. And when there were, the media combs through all of it, ignores everything, except, they cherry pick one instance where a dead person voted for Trump and give that the headline story.

That GA "secretly recorded" call for instance...what did they play? The stuff that suited their agenda. Many probably arent aware that on the same call, the GA secretary outright admitted they had several instances of dead people voting. That was not mentioned anywhere though.

Its all about the narrative. Things will settle down although I wouldn't be shocked to see another "insurrection" on inauguration day, but after that...its back to pre 2017 normal. Folks need to move on.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 08, 2021, 05:13:18 PM
Like it or not, the parliament is different than a Target or a courthouse or most other buildings.

That fact becomes clear if you invert things a bit. If a foreign agent broke into a courthouse there will maybe be some sanctions but mostly nobody would give much of a shit. If these guys that went into the capitol were foreign agents instead of Trumpers the US navy would already be bombing that country while the Air Force would be drawing up plans for how to REALLY bomb it and the approval for the action would be almost unanimous.

^ Like it or not - you are making excuses for the thugs and criminals of BLM/Antifa. And you are also excusing the behavior
of the politicians that are sworn to uphold the law.

Try telling this dumb viewpoint to the 25+ people that were murdered during the Antifa/BLM riots. To those that lost
their property, businesses and lively hoods during the riots - encouraged by Democratic politicians. And to those
victims who saw the criminals bailed out by the Democratic Party.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2021, 05:21:34 PM
Like it or not, the parliament is different than a Target or a courthouse or most other buildings.

That fact becomes clear if you invert things a bit. If a foreign agent broke into a courthouse there will maybe be some sanctions but mostly nobody would give much of a shit. If these guys that went into the capitol were foreign agents instead of Trumpers the US navy would already be bombing that country while the Air Force would be drawing up plans for how to REALLY bomb it and the approval for the action would be almost unanimous.

Thats definitely valid, however it raises the question...these folks dont have updated systems that derisk traditional brick and mortar structure in the name of national security? I mean the entire event yesterday was effectively some hoity toity, bullshit "look at how important I am" celebrity event where these pompous douchebags certified votes that were already voted by the EC after being audited several times over prior after having been counted several times before that....yea thats what $15k a month per pond scummer gets us....and now theyre gonna ask to raise taxes....this type of inefficiency is breathtaking, and they wonder why people want to burn the thing down(really both sides, look at both groups of protesters....totally pissed off, furious at the system, but unfortunately most are media manipulating into thinking each other is the enemy rather than their government)....
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 08, 2021, 06:30:07 PM

I think the right way to frame it is to say that, Iran is a greatest threat to the Middle East status quo, simply because they are a revolutionary regime bent on disrupting the current status quo. And that is why it needs to be contained, because we (the West) are aligned with the status quo and do not want to deviate from it.

That said, Iran is not the only one pushing to disrupt, there is a reason why Qatar and Turkey are also very close ... and are both in odds with the rest of the region specially the Saudis. Qatar has been disrupting the Arab landscape (i.e. Arab spring) through its soft powers (Al Jazeera) and Turkey has been disrupting more directly. The two of them almost got Egypt, which then had a coup d'etat and reverted back to Saudi-led block. Qatar and Turkey don't make the news on here in the West as the ultimate villains', because they are both allies in the West. But disrupters they are. 

Western media portray the Iran-Saudi thing as a clash for Shia and Sunni or Persian vs. Arab, as a historic way to frame. That is not entirely true. Qataris are all Sunni and yet are close to Iran, because of the circumstances. Pre-1979 Iran was very close with Israel. Israel was at odds with the Saudis etc. but not anymore. Alliances shifts around all the time. The common theme however are Saudi, Turkey and Iran, which are the big three power blocks. And nothing is going to change these facts. And Israel is a military superpower, that has lots of inertia but not critical mass.

Obama had the right idea with Iran, but the wrong approach.
While Republicans are clueless with Iran. Like fools, for decades they tried to suffocate its economy, and it didn't do anything but to hurt the commoners and reinforce the hardliners.

On a more global scale, I would say that U.S. is a on long term relative decline when it comes to its foreign influence and that started since it got distracted with Iraq right after 9/11 (we just didn't know it at the time) and that disengagement has been amplified by the shale revolution. It matters not who sits in the White House, the trend is that of long term dis-engagement. Biden, the internationalist, might reverse by 1 step, but it will get 2 steps back after that.

On Trump, credit does go to him for breaking the taboo in middle eastern politics. The peace treaty between Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco, are entirely to be credited to him and Kushner. Of course, the peace treaty comes with consequence, but fact is we already spent decades with the status quo. It needed disruption.

Going back full circle to my first paragraph, Trump's and the revolutionary regime in Iran then seem to have something in common. They are/were both disruptors of the status quo, but just had different national interests.

Awesome insight especially regarding Iran, but I expect nothing less from someone with the screen name Xerxes.

Iran interests me, as I have relatives who lived in Iran when Khomeini gained power and some of them  have become hardline islamists and other are very moderate - a long story by itself.

My thinking is that over time, the Iranian hard lines have morphed from crazies to actually become more rational over time. I think that over the long run With the changes with Saudii leadership,  the Saudi’s may become the bigger threat to the West than the Iranians ever have been.

You are correct (imo) that allegiances are constantly shifting and that makes it problematic to align ourself with any nation but Israel there. i think the good News is that with the lower dependency from crude the strategic importance of this region and the Saudi’s has diminished and it is probably the best thing that ever happened to us.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 08, 2021, 08:14:47 PM
If 2% of people were effected, or specifically, Jews were going to concentration camps, it would most certainly effect the normal person simply due to community effect. People know people, degrees of separation type stuff. Much different than a lot of the current drama, which is really just people who are paranoid/unnecessarily scared(cwercib, viking, RTF, etc), angry(protesters, rioters, insurrectionists, etc), and scheming(establishment politicians and academics). All of which is inspired preeminently from outlandish news coverage and fueled by social media. Much like republicans who constantly think the communist/socialist takeover is right around the corner, the academics who obsess over this idea of "threats to democracy" fail to realize the idea is much bigger in their heads than it is in terms of anything in real life. We've seen constant talk and statements similar to " I just care cause I kinda like the democracy thing" but the truth is its been boys who cried wolf since before Trump took office and yet here we are, perfectly fine. At which point they move the needle again to something that extends the goalposts like "well we wouldn't have made it much longer or whatever". For all the "talk" from both sides, living in America is pretty damn easy and good. Except maybe in NYC right now, but we cant win them all.

Greg, i am happy to debate ideas. If you want to bring my name into your posts then please reply to my posts and lets have a debate about facts. Or if your want to know what i think please ask and i am happy to give you my thoughts. I would love to do that.

But please, stop with the constant misrepresenting what i post and what i believe.

This board cannot devolve into some posters name calling and labelling other posters. From my perspective that is crossing the line and it needs to stop. It is a slippery slope and it rarely ends well.

This is the second time i have asked.

Not really, you have consistently for the past several years posted largely conspiratorial opinions/theories about what was going to happen to the US, to Trump, to democracy, etc...along with the others mentioned and quite a few more posters. Pretty much none of that has proven accurate, and if the grand "I knew it" was a one day protest at a building deemed more important because government people were there......then I dont know what to say.

After the grand event yesterday, today it was back to business as usual. Including more pointless political stunts about impeachment even though theres less than 2 weeks til inauguration, and non stop media talk continuing to incite and monetize discord.

Greg... SHOW ME THE MONEY :-) What phantom posts are you talking about? Where is the post where i said what you said i said?  I post lots... should be easy to find. But i honestly have no idea what you are talking about. But given that, according to you, i am the one doing the talking, i am at a bit of a disadvantage because i am not able to get inside your head.

Let’s have a big boy debate.... you know one with facts (like an actual post i made and something i actually said). I might learn something and... you might too (yes, i hate that too when it happens :-).

Is the problem that you do not want to debate the facts? Or is it that when you say something it automatically just becomes a fact (my wife says i am like that sometimes)? Or is it that you don’t care about facts at all, and your having a bad day, and you just need to vent?

Everybody agrees fake news is a major problem these days. There is an easy solution... debate what people on the board actually say when they say it. And cut out the paraphrasing and mischaracterizations of what they say or believe after the fact.

Pease note, i am not saying that i don’t post dumb things from time to time (and maybe more than that). Maybe those are the posts you are referencing. The problem is, i have no idea what you are talking about.

And, yes, i do enjoy skewering Trump (lately, its been like taking candy from a baby); when i skewer him i usually try and be fact based. From time to time, Prem as well. Happy to debate those facts.

I try not to skewer members of this board. Or speak for them. If i do, please let me know when i do and i will back off. My view is that is crossing the line. Hitting below the belt. R E S P E C T

My view is everyone on this board is on the same team. Yes, we all come from very different backgrounds. We have different values. And we have very different views. The diversity of opinion (and how that flows through to investing ideas and general discussion topics) is the secret sauce that has made this board work for decades.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 09, 2021, 02:56:38 AM
^ Geez ... more "he said, she said" hair on fire stuff
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 03:32:07 AM
The democrats and tech oligarchs are overplaying their hand.  This will not end well.
Nah, it's just a sign that Melania won her war against online bullying.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/bebest/
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 03:41:57 AM
https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1347011413101998080

(I hope above is all tin-foil hat and/or fake news nonsense...)
Nope, not tin foil and he wasn't the only one either. Their primary targets for hostage taking from multiple reports (including some idiots who actually gave interviews) were Mike Pence, Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi. Over time more of this information will likely come out.

Taken in the context of Trump withholding allowing the National Guard to go in, or neighboring police forces to offer assistance, while simultaneously Trump and Giuliani placed phone calls to Republicans inside the Capital to ask that they delay the process or stage objections, how can you NOT consider this an attempted coup?

At a minimum it is putting peoples lives at risk in order to exert bargaining pressure. Let's not forget that we are in the middle of the pandemic and simply forcing Capitol Police, and the rest of the workers and elected officials in to close quarters is putting people's health at risk and will almost certainly result in deaths.

Let's not forget that it was one week ago today that Trump was on the phone threatening Georgia election officials, and we don't know the details of the discussions he had later that day with the other five states he was pressuring.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: vinod1 on January 09, 2021, 05:11:36 AM
Why do Trump supporters on this board hate America so much? Why do they denigrate, despise, spit on America?

MAGA is a great slogan. Anyone can say it out. The hard part is how you act and think.

America has a wonderful election system. Brilliantly designed to prevent subversion with lots of checks and balances. There are 50 states each with their own procedures in place. There are checks and balances via courts and more importantly they are run half by one party and half by the other party.

In an election with 150 million voters, there would be some amount of mischief. Do you expect not even one single vote from fraud in a total of 150 million votes? Do you think all the votes in 2016 election are perfect?

Only a banana republic could have a presidential result be changed due to fraud. So when you say there is fraud, you are saying USA is such a country.

If you have any principles any love for the country, have the courage to call out Trump for his actions in inciting mob violence on US Capitol.

Are you guys really that submissive to Trump that you do not even have the balls to condemn him?

As I mentioned before there are several policies that Trump implemented that are great. There is a lot of nonsense from the left that I despise and violence over the summer that should have been ruthlessly dealt with.

Now, which one of you Trump supporters are willing to put America first and show some independent thinking and condemn Trump unequivocally?

I know the response is one of two (1) Silence (2) Some version of "Do you think Biden/xxx is better?"
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 09, 2021, 05:16:11 AM
https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1347011413101998080

(I hope above is all tin-foil hat and/or fake news nonsense...)
Nope, not tin foil and he wasn't the only one either. Their primary targets for hostage taking from multiple reports (including some idiots who actually gave interviews) were Mike Pence, Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi. Over time more of this information will likely come out.

Taken in the context of Trump withholding allowing the National Guard to go in, or neighboring police forces to offer assistance, while simultaneously Trump and Giuliani placed phone calls to Republicans inside the Capital to ask that they delay the process or stage objections, how can you NOT consider this an attempted coup?

At a minimum it is putting peoples lives at risk in order to exert bargaining pressure. Let's not forget that we are in the middle of the pandemic and simply forcing Capitol Police, and the rest of the workers and elected officials in to close quarters is putting people's health at risk and will almost certainly result in deaths.

Let's not forget that it was one week ago today that Trump was on the phone threatening Georgia election officials, and we don't know the details of the discussions he had later that day with the other five states he was pressuring.

The capitol sacking wasn’t a spontaneous event, it was planned on more obscure social media platforms by far right groups (QAnon etc) that weren’t well monitored apparently.

Actually the Washington Post has a story about this too:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2021/politics/trump-insurrection-capitol/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2021/politics/trump-insurrection-capitol/)
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: vinod1 on January 09, 2021, 05:20:10 AM
Like it or not, the parliament is different than a Target or a courthouse or most other buildings.

That fact becomes clear if you invert things a bit. If a foreign agent broke into a courthouse there will maybe be some sanctions but mostly nobody would give much of a shit. If these guys that went into the capitol were foreign agents instead of Trumpers the US navy would already be bombing that country while the Air Force would be drawing up plans for how to REALLY bomb it and the approval for the action would be almost unanimous.

Thats definitely valid, however it raises the question...these folks dont have updated systems that derisk traditional brick and mortar structure in the name of national security? I mean the entire event yesterday was effectively some hoity toity, bullshit "look at how important I am" celebrity event where these pompous douchebags certified votes that were already voted by the EC after being audited several times over prior after having been counted several times before that....yea thats what $15k a month per pond scummer gets us....and now theyre gonna ask to raise taxes....this type of inefficiency is breathtaking, and they wonder why people want to burn the thing down(really both sides, look at both groups of protesters....totally pissed off, furious at the system, but unfortunately most are media manipulating into thinking each other is the enemy rather than their government)....

There is a reason for the process. Efficiency is not everything. Resilience should count for something. Let us give our American forefathers some benefit of the doubt.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-electoral-college-saved-the-election-11610133725

The Electoral College—having done all it could do to mediate the campaign, having delivered in classic fashion on Election Day—saved its strongest performance for last. In the days following the election, Mr. Trump proclaimed he had won in a landslide only to have victory snatched away by massive election fraud. Many of his supporters—aware that the Democrats, media, and permanent government were willing to play dirty—rallied boisterously to his side.

The president’s claims were then adjudicated over several weeks in scores of local forums by hundreds of state and local election officials and state and federal judges, in six battleground states whose initial returns had gone narrowly for Mr. Biden—Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. The Trump team won a few procedural rulings, but ultimately lost every significant claim, drawing sharp rebukes for the flimsiness of its claims from several judges, including Trump appointees.

As the court losses mounted, Mr. Trump called on Republican legislatures to cast their states’ electoral votes directly for him, and on state governors and election officials to recalibrate their election results in his favor. In every case, he was firmly rebuffed. The states certified their final election results, and the 538 electors, meeting on Dec. 14, elected Mr. Biden, 306–232. Their votes were counted before a joint session of Congress on Jan. 6-7, where vote challenges were rejected on grounds of constitutional deference to the state certifications, even as a mob of Trump partisans stormed the Capitol, incited by the president’s mad claim that the session might reverse the election result.

This was the Electoral College system of diversified, independent, state-centered authority in action—steering sturdily through gales of hysteria, settling an election in an exceedingly dangerous storm. There had been more than the usual election irregularities, arising from lax procedures for mail-in voting and late counting introduced shortly before the election, and these certainly justify a commission of inquiry and tighter procedures in future elections. But if enough fraud and chicanery had existed to steal the election, hard evidence would have turned up somewhere. The most conspicuous irregularities were Mr. Trump’s own egregious efforts to subvert the Electoral College’s structure and procedures, which are ending his presidency in ruination and disgrace.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: vinod1 on January 09, 2021, 05:31:01 AM
A very good read:

https://thedispatch.com/p/trumps-rebellion-against-reality

The riot itself is no threat to the stability of our republic. The Capitol Building has seen more than its share of violence and trouble over the years. The British famously set parts of it on fire in the War of 1812. It faced intense crowds of rioters several times in the 19th century, and many times in the 20th.

....

The bigger problem, the more fundamental challenge to the stability of our republic on display on Wednesday, was a set of interconnected failures of responsibility—failures to take ownership of the fate of our society, and especially failures to deal with reality. The mob of rioters obviously behaved irresponsibly. Too many congressional Republicans did, too—flirting with lies and conspiracies for political gain, knowing it was all for show. But above all, it was the president’s irresponsibility that made Wednesday’s drama a real threat to our national stability.

Like so much of what Trump has wrought, the attack on the Capitol had the feel of fiction, and even many of the people involved seemed to be playing out a fantasy in their heads, living in a world in which sinister forces had stolen the election from their lion-hearted hero and they had come to set things straight by a show of strength. It’s all a lie, every part of it, yet the actions taken by the crowd were very real, and very dangerous.


Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 09, 2021, 05:48:50 AM
Why do Trump supporters on this board hate America so much? Why do they denigrate, despise, spit on America?

I despise the "systematic racism" total bullshit that you LEFTIES signed up for.
I despise the destruction of our cities, history and culture in the name of a bogus "social justice" hoax.
I despise a bunch of hypocrites that don't walk the talk - but lay down rules for one set of people, turn around and live by another set.
I despise the destruction of free speech, like the Gestapo Cheat-to-Win Democrats
I despise the destruction of careers by hypocrites that don't share your views - and cloak it with "let's all come together" , after I destroy you.
I despise your ruthless cancel culture, doxing, and harassment of ordinary citizens that don't share your vitriolic values.
I despise you tearing down of the greatest country in the world, while you take care of yourself.
I despise the fact that you do not believe in truth, honor, integrity and fairness.
I despise the fact that YOU are the pot that calls the kettle black.
I despise the fact that you incite violence and destroy our country with no apology or retribution for your agents of destruction.
I despise the fact that you hate God, unborn children, the family unit and people that don't have your own skin color,
I despise that fact that you control the media, like Goebbels and have turned it into your propaganda machine
I despise the fact that you are hell bent on destroy Civil Liberties and the Bill of Rights - with NO apology
I despise the fact that you have absolutely no tolerance for opposing viewpoints and seek to destroy the values that have made this country great.
I despise the fact that you FORCE me to call you a woman, when you are indeed a dude
I despise the fact that you attack our President for the very actions you incited and condoned all summer in our great American cities.
I despise the fact that you have chosen to align yourself with lying, dishonest, selfish, hypocritical, divisive and incompetent political leaders like Schiff, Nadler, Pelosi, etc


The LEFT are the true scum of this great nation.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 06:05:52 AM
Why do Trump supporters on this board hate America so much? Why do they denigrate, despise, spit on America?

I despise the "systematic racism" total bullshit that you LEFTIES signed up for.
I despise the destruction of our cities, history and culture in the name of a bogus "social justice" hoax.
I despise a bunch of hypocrites that don't walk the talk - but lay down rules for one set of people, turn around and live by another set.
I despise the destruction of free speech, like the Gestapo Cheat-to-Win Democrats
I despise the destruction of careers by hypocrites that don't share your views - and cloak it with "let's all come together" , after I destroy you.
I despise your ruthless cancel culture, doxing, and harassment of ordinary citizens that don't share your vitriolic values.
I despise you tearing down of the greatest country in the world, while you take care of yourself.
I despise the fact that you do not believe in truth, honor, integrity and fairness.
I despise the fact that YOU are the pot that calls the kettle black.
I despise the fact that you incite violence and destroy our country with no apology or retribution for your agents of destruction.
I despise the fact that you hate God, unborn children, the family unit and people that don't have your own skin color,
I despise that fact that you control the media, like Goebbels and have turned it into your propaganda machine
I despise the fact that you are hell bent on destroy Civil Liberties and the Bill of Rights - with NO apology
I despise the fact that you have absolutely no tolerance for opposing viewpoints and seek to destroy the values that have made this country great.

The LEFT are the true scum of this great nation.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 09, 2021, 06:24:44 AM
I have a few friends who are democrats who are highly educated and highly skilled (mostly doctors and surgeons).  However, most of my democrat friends are the types who went to college for some useless liberal arts degree and still live in their parent's basement at age 30.  Ironically, they are in the same boat as the deplorables.  They don't have any skills or useful knowledge; similarly many of the deplorables have obsolete skills and/or knowledge. 

I was thinking more about the extreme movements and how people get attracted to them (on both sides).  Loss aversion is a behavior many investors are familiar with.  People tend to take higher risks when they are down because the pain of loss is greater than the joy of gain.

The censorship that is going on now is scary, and I think the democrats are projecting their guilt on their opponents.  Biden accuses Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz of acting like Joseph Goebbels while Michelle Obama demands that Trump is completely censored.  The democrats seem to be the ones acting erratically for apparently no reason.  Trump has 11 more days.  Why are they so hell bent on impeachment?  Why are they acting so desperate when they "won"?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: no_free_lunch on January 09, 2021, 06:34:53 AM
Good to hear JRM.

I agree. I was initially very opposed to the capitol hill protesters. Now as I see the response I am moving towards, who cares. I only feel bad for the officers who were injured and the protesters who were executed or arrested.

Interesting that trump has the ability to pardon the protesters en mass.  This power extends to the end of his presidency.

Meanwhile let's work on building block chain based social media so we don't rely on silicon valley scumbags.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 06:46:34 AM
Lets also not overlook the case being made by Apple and Google for antitrust violations. I am aware of nothing anybody associated with Parlor did yesterday, yet both collude to remove the app and effectively to try kill the business to protect their buddy Dorsey.

I've never in my life had a Facebook, Twitter, etc account, so I have no dog in the fight. But if we're talking big business collusion and abuse of power, between the Epic games thing, and now this, it should be pretty obvious for all parties to see there is an issue with these two.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: vinod1 on January 09, 2021, 07:14:33 AM
Why do Trump supporters on this board hate America so much? Why do they denigrate, despise, spit on America?

I despise the "systematic racism" total bullshit that you LEFTIES signed up for.
I despise the destruction of our cities, history and culture in the name of a bogus "social justice" hoax.
I despise a bunch of hypocrites that don't walk the talk - but lay down rules for one set of people, turn around and live by another set.
I despise the destruction of free speech, like the Gestapo Cheat-to-Win Democrats
I despise the destruction of careers by hypocrites that don't share your views - and cloak it with "let's all come together" , after I destroy you.
I despise your ruthless cancel culture, doxing, and harassment of ordinary citizens that don't share your vitriolic values.
I despise you tearing down of the greatest country in the world, while you take care of yourself.
I despise the fact that you do not believe in truth, honor, integrity and fairness.
I despise the fact that YOU are the pot that calls the kettle black.
I despise the fact that you incite violence and destroy our country with no apology or retribution for your agents of destruction.
I despise the fact that you hate God, unborn children, the family unit and people that don't have your own skin color,
I despise that fact that you control the media, like Goebbels and have turned it into your propaganda machine
I despise the fact that you are hell bent on destroy Civil Liberties and the Bill of Rights - with NO apology
I despise the fact that you have absolutely no tolerance for opposing viewpoints and seek to destroy the values that have made this country great.
I despise the fact that you FORCE me to call you a woman, when you are indeed a dude
I despise the fact that you attack our President for the very actions you incited and condoned all summer in our great American cities.
I despise the fact that you have chosen to align yourself with lying, dishonest, selfish, hypocritical, divisive and incompetent political leaders like Schiff, Nadler, Pelosi, etc


The LEFT are the true scum of this great nation.

Dear cubsfan,

To keep things in perspective, I contributed to Trump's 2020 campaign!

I share many of your concerns, but not all. I understand you hate the left. I dislike the extreme elements both of the left and the right.

You did not answer my question though. All I am asking is if you are capable of looking at Trump rationally. You can say he did a 100 good things, 1, 2, 3... etc. but here are a few that I think are wrong. Can you say that with Trump at all?  You are obviously a smart guy and I fail to understand how one can be so uncritical of a person in power. Even the greatest presidents of all time have some flaws. Wouldn't it be dangerous to endow someone to be of such wisdom that they are always 100% right?

To take an example, Trump used Obama birth certificate to great advantage in 2016. It is a brilliant marketing strategy. Absolutely best and any marketing student should study it. But it is not true as I hope you would agree.

Vinod
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 09, 2021, 08:00:34 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

The closest we have been to civil war in 160 years, and more American dying needlessly due to a pandemic than in previous wars, the president turning his own people against each other? There are many Americans who are terrified on a daily basis, because of Trump. Yep, sounds peaceful.

You claim to be a christian. As a christian, can you feel no empathy for the people who are suffering in America and believe that Trump and Trumpists are to blame? So many people have lost their jobs due to the pandemic, and some portion of that is unnecessary. So many people have lost their lives this year due to the pandemic and some portion was completely preventable with better leadership.

As for the people on the left, especially the extreme left, I don't agree with many them, I probably wouldn't want to spend time with them, I expect I will find myself in opposition to their beliefs and opinions, but even though I am very fortunate not to be in their position, I would like to end their pain for them. Anyone who can't feel that kind of compassion when it would be so easy to put aside, and try to deescalate the situation and work together with reasonable moderates, should not call themself a christian or even a good citizen in my opinion.

If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I didn't say that it was "peaceful". I'm saying that we are much, much closer to peace then destruction. Is it more peaceful than in the 90s? No but that was an abnormal time. Personally, I would feel much safer today than say during the Cold War when a nuclear war could start off at any moment. Americans have been coddled for too long and it has made us weak.

I feel empathy for people, sure. With that said, just because they "feel" Trump is to blame that doesn't mean they're right. Sure, different leadership could have prevented more covid deaths. But, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have lead to the increase of other deaths.

By the way, why do you capitalize Trump and America but not Christian? I can assure you that the later one is far more important and will last longer than the first two. ;)


Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 09, 2021, 09:08:36 AM
Why do Trump supporters on this board hate America so much? Why do they denigrate, despise, spit on America?

I despise the "systematic racism" total bullshit that you LEFTIES signed up for.
I despise the destruction of our cities, history and culture in the name of a bogus "social justice" hoax.
I despise a bunch of hypocrites that don't walk the talk - but lay down rules for one set of people, turn around and live by another set.
I despise the destruction of free speech, like the Gestapo Cheat-to-Win Democrats
I despise the destruction of careers by hypocrites that don't share your views - and cloak it with "let's all come together" , after I destroy you.
I despise your ruthless cancel culture, doxing, and harassment of ordinary citizens that don't share your vitriolic values.
I despise you tearing down of the greatest country in the world, while you take care of yourself.
I despise the fact that you do not believe in truth, honor, integrity and fairness.
I despise the fact that YOU are the pot that calls the kettle black.
I despise the fact that you incite violence and destroy our country with no apology or retribution for your agents of destruction.
I despise the fact that you hate God, unborn children, the family unit and people that don't have your own skin color,
I despise that fact that you control the media, like Goebbels and have turned it into your propaganda machine
I despise the fact that you are hell bent on destroy Civil Liberties and the Bill of Rights - with NO apology
I despise the fact that you have absolutely no tolerance for opposing viewpoints and seek to destroy the values that have made this country great.
I despise the fact that you FORCE me to call you a woman, when you are indeed a dude
I despise the fact that you attack our President for the very actions you incited and condoned all summer in our great American cities.
I despise the fact that you have chosen to align yourself with lying, dishonest, selfish, hypocritical, divisive and incompetent political leaders like Schiff, Nadler, Pelosi, etc


The LEFT are the true scum of this great nation.

Dear cubsfan,

To keep things in perspective, I contributed to Trump's 2020 campaign!

I share many of your concerns, but not all. I understand you hate the left. I dislike the extreme elements both of the left and the right.

You did not answer my question though. All I am asking is if you are capable of looking at Trump rationally. You can say he did a 100 good things, 1, 2, 3... etc. but here are a few that I think are wrong. Can you say that with Trump at all?  You are obviously a smart guy and I fail to understand how one can be so uncritical of a person in power. Even the greatest presidents of all time have some flaws. Wouldn't it be dangerous to endow someone to be of such wisdom that they are always 100% right?

To take an example, Trump used Obama birth certificate to great advantage in 2016. It is a brilliant marketing strategy. Absolutely best and any marketing student should study it. But it is not true as I hope you would agree.

Vinod

Of course I can be critical of Trump. His is a blunt instrument. A hammer. A bull in a China shop. An imperfect individual. A fighter. He is what was needed at a time of a takeover by the LEFT, given the failure of Republican leadership. He is Dirty Harry all over again, loved by millions.

Someone does not have to be perfect to be great. And a great President he is.

So what do I care about a "nit" like Obama's birth certificate. I never believed it. Big deal. Hillary started the Obama birth certificate movement.
So Obama was called a faker. Trump has been called a Traitor, Racsist, Bigot, Russian Asset, Nazi and much much worse. It's how the LEFT plays the game.

The LEFT can't stand he fights back. Big deal.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 09, 2021, 09:36:00 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

The closest we have been to civil war in 160 years, and more American dying needlessly due to a pandemic than in previous wars, the president turning his own people against each other? There are many Americans who are terrified on a daily basis, because of Trump. Yep, sounds peaceful.

You claim to be a christian. As a christian, can you feel no empathy for the people who are suffering in America and believe that Trump and Trumpists are to blame? So many people have lost their jobs due to the pandemic, and some portion of that is unnecessary. So many people have lost their lives this year due to the pandemic and some portion was completely preventable with better leadership.

As for the people on the left, especially the extreme left, I don't agree with many them, I probably wouldn't want to spend time with them, I expect I will find myself in opposition to their beliefs and opinions, but even though I am very fortunate not to be in their position, I would like to end their pain for them. Anyone who can't feel that kind of compassion when it would be so easy to put aside, and try to deescalate the situation and work together with reasonable moderates, should not call themself a christian or even a good citizen in my opinion.

If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I didn't say that it was "peaceful". I'm saying that we are much, much closer to peace then destruction. Is it more peaceful than in the 90s? No but that was an abnormal time. Personally, I would feel much safer today than say during the Cold War when a nuclear war could start off at any moment. Americans have been coddled for too long and it has made us weak.

I feel empathy for people, sure. With that said, just because they "feel" Trump is to blame that doesn't mean they're right. Sure, different leadership could have prevented more covid deaths. But, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have lead to the increase of other deaths.

By the way, why do you capitalize Trump and America but not Christian? I can assure you that the later one is far more important and will last longer than the first two. ;)

Have you heard of a person named Brian Sicknick? (My guess is his family might disagree with you.)  And the 50 law enforcement injured? 2 bombs planted? The elected officials who were evacuated... a big, big overreaction?

Now i understand... Trump had nothing to do with any of this. Its not like he called the rally, spoke to the crowd, incited them, told them where to  go or commended them for their actions afterwards...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 09, 2021, 09:40:52 AM
Well, looks like Trump will be impeached again. If Trump is impeached successfully, I believe that Congress can prevent him from ever running for President again. 2/3 majority is needed and the vote is public, so it is an interesting way to find the Trump loyalists until the bitter end.

The coming week should be interesting. I have no opinion whether the impeachment actually succeeds.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 09, 2021, 09:55:32 AM
If impeached, I believe Trump would lose his federal pension, lifetime secret service protection and all the other perks that former presidents are entitled to that are paid for by the taxpayer. Given that he essentially quit his job as president immediately after the election and has since done everything in his power to cause disruption rather than help resolve the internal problems in the country, one would think he should be rightfully fired for dereliction of duty.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 09, 2021, 09:58:04 AM
Well, looks like Trump will be impeached again. If Trump is impeached successfully, I believe that Congress can prevent him from ever running for President again. 2/3 majority is needed and the vote is public, so it is an interesting way to find the Trump loyalists until the bitter end.

The coming week should be interesting. I have no opinion whether the impeachment actually succeeds.

Probably will happen - that is the way a totalitarian regime operates.

Don't forget to get the gallows ready for Don Jr, Eric, and the rest of the MAGA loyalists.

In fact, be good Bolsheviks - and make you shoot that little fucker Baron - he might be a problem to your party later.

After all, Lenin and Stalin would, definitely Hitler and Saddam.  Joe will do it - he's just a puppet for your movement anyway.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 10:04:10 AM

If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.


Yup. 100% accurate and this comment alone should be the end of the thread LOL.

As Ive said before, the majority of the "concerns/fears/etc" are basically just the result of sour, academic minded, 1-5%er, middle aged white folks who could use a hobby.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 10:07:50 AM
Well, looks like Trump will be impeached again. If Trump is impeached successfully, I believe that Congress can prevent him from ever running for President again. 2/3 majority is needed and the vote is public, so it is an interesting way to find the Trump loyalists until the bitter end.

The coming week should be interesting. I have no opinion whether the impeachment actually succeeds.

Probably will happen - that is the way a totalitarian regime operates.

Don't forget to get the gallows ready for Don Jr, Eric, and the rest of the MAGA loyalists.

In fact, be good Bolsheviks - and make you shoot that little fucker Baron - he might be a problem to your party later.

After all, Lenin and Stalin would, definitely Hitler and Saddam.  Joe will do it - he's just a puppet for your movement anyway.

Thats the way it works. A few libtards start something, then the MSM chimes in, then the other libs chip in with their "I agree" circle jerk...obviously making it a fact, and then they all run around the echo chamber using each other as "proof" what they are saying must be true.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Mephistopheles on January 09, 2021, 10:18:25 AM
If impeached, I believe Trump would lose his federal pension, lifetime secret service protection and all the other perks that former presidents are entitled to that are paid for by the taxpayer. Given that he essentially quit his job as president immediately after the election and has since done everything in his power to cause disruption rather than help resolve the internal problems in the country, one would think he should be rightfully fired for dereliction of duty.

Looks like the Senate trial will not take place until after the inauguration. In which case, I am curious what happens if they do get the 2/3 majority and convict him after he has already left. Is it still a valid conviction in terms of the things you stated above?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
If impeached, I believe Trump would lose his federal pension, lifetime secret service protection and all the other perks that former presidents are entitled to that are paid for by the taxpayer. Given that he essentially quit his job as president immediately after the election and has since done everything in his power to cause disruption rather than help resolve the internal problems in the country, one would think he should be rightfully fired for dereliction of duty.

Looks like the Senate trial will not take place until after the inauguration. In which case, I am curious what happens if they do get the 2/3 majority and convict him after he has already left. Is it still a valid conviction in terms of the things you stated above?
There is a precedent for a trial with a conviction after leaving office, so it has been done before.

Disqualification is the interesting part. It would destroy Trump's and his family's future even more than simply impeachment or conviction. It would take away his secret service protection after leaving office, it would take away his annual travel budget, and it would take away his pension. Given all the lawsuits, criminal cases, debt repayments and business failures he may be facing in the future, he might really like to have a pension.

Disqualification would of course also prevent ever serving again, so he couldn't continue selling the dream of Trump 2024.

This is all part of the "negotiation" that is going on right now. Trump is threatening violence through his disinformation on one side. On the other side the Congress is threatening more speeches, stern rebukes, and finally the nuclear option of Disqualification.

A part of the truce is that the cabinet and staff are making assurances that they aren't going to listen to Trump and there is a "defacto 25th Amendment" in place. I'm not sure why anyone should trust some of these Cabinet members such as Mike Pompeo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2CbabWH56Y
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 11:28:18 AM
If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I think Mike Pence and a bunch of other Republicans may need to seek mental health.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/twitter-trending-hang-mike-pence

I was watching coverage live as it happened. I had expected something like this was planned. The fear I saw in the faces and behavior of Republicans was real. They are keeping their mouths shut, but they know.

It's interesting that Republican Representative Adam Kinzinger says he told his staff to stay home because he thought it was too dangerous for them to come to work that day. I guess he needs some mental health too.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 09, 2021, 11:33:38 AM
Well after having a person who was mentally ill as President, nothing is a surprise.
Can anyone read these definitions of mental illnesses and not see how they describe Trump?

Narcissist:
One of several types of personality disorders. It is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

Sociopath:
A sociopath is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can’t understand others’ feelings. They’ll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause.

Paranoia:   
Symptoms of paranoia and delusional disorders include intense and irrational mistrust or suspicion, which can bring on sense of fear, anger, and betrayal. Some identifiable beliefs and behaviors of individuals with symptoms of paranoia include mistrust, hypervigilence, difficulty with forgiveness, defensive attitude in response to imagined criticism, preoccupation with hidden motives, fear of being deceived or taken advantage of, inability to relax, or are argumentative

Pathological Liar:
Described as a habituation of lying. It is when an individual consistently lies for no personal gain. There are many consequences of being a pathological liar. Due to lack of trust, most pathological liars' relationships and friendships fail. If this continues to progress, lying could become so severe as to cause legal problems, including, but not limited to, fraud.

Delusional:
Characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

Bipolar disorder:
Is a chronic or episodic (occurring at irregular intervals) mental disorder. It can cause unusual, often extreme and fluctuating changes in mood, energy, activity, and concentration or focus.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 09, 2021, 11:40:20 AM
If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I think Mike Pence and a bunch of other Republicans may need to seek mental health.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/twitter-trending-hang-mike-pence

I was watching coverage live as it happened. I had expected something like this was planned. The fear I saw in the faces and behavior of Republicans was real. They are keeping their mouths shut, but they know.

It's interesting that Republican Representative Adam Kinzinger says he told his staff to stay home because he thought it was too dangerous for them to come to work that day. I guess he needs some mental health too.

You may be referring to something different, but I was watching the joint session live too.  I was watching the House of Reps breakout.  In the middle of the debate (not sure if that's what it's called), a republican was speaking.  You couldn't see anyone's faces except for his.  There was some commotion and he asked for order in the house, then a different camera angle showed the democrats in the house orderly and calmly walking out the door.  The republicans appeared to be confused and not understanding what was going on.  They remained in their seats while the democrats filed out.  Again, you couldn't see their faces.  A few minutes later it was announced that the capital was under attack.  One of the most bizarre events I've ever seen from start to finish.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 11:49:40 AM
If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I think Mike Pence and a bunch of other Republicans may need to seek mental health.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/twitter-trending-hang-mike-pence

I was watching coverage live as it happened. I had expected something like this was planned. The fear I saw in the faces and behavior of Republicans was real. They are keeping their mouths shut, but they know.

It's interesting that Republican Representative Adam Kinzinger says he told his staff to stay home because he thought it was too dangerous for them to come to work that day. I guess he needs some mental health too.

You may be referring to something different, but I was watching the joint session live too.  I was watching the House of Reps breakout.  In the middle of the debate (not sure if that's what it's called), a republican was speaking.  You couldn't see anyone's faces except for his. There was some commotion and he asked for order in the house, then a different camera angle showed the democrats in the house orderly and calmly walking out the door.  The republicans appeared to be confused and not understanding what was going on.  They remained in their seats while the democrats filed out.  Again, you couldn't see their faces.  A few minutes later it was announced that the capital was under attack.  One of the most bizarre events I've ever seen from start to finish.

LOL more of the same. Besides you don't need to read faces when you can read minds like they all claim to be able to do.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 11:51:14 AM
If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I think Mike Pence and a bunch of other Republicans may need to seek mental health.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/twitter-trending-hang-mike-pence

I was watching coverage live as it happened. I had expected something like this was planned. The fear I saw in the faces and behavior of Republicans was real. They are keeping their mouths shut, but they know.

It's interesting that Republican Representative Adam Kinzinger says he told his staff to stay home because he thought it was too dangerous for them to come to work that day. I guess he needs some mental health too.

You may be referring to something different, but I was watching the joint session live too.  I was watching the House of Reps breakout.  In the middle of the debate (not sure if that's what it's called), a republican was speaking.  You couldn't see anyone's faces except for his.  There was some commotion and he asked for order in the house, then a different camera angle showed the democrats in the house orderly and calmly walking out the door.  The republicans appeared to be confused and not understanding what was going on.  They remained in their seats while the democrats filed out.  Again, you couldn't see their faces.  A few minutes later it was announced that the capital was under attack.  One of the most bizarre events I've ever seen from start to finish.

Classic JRM conspiracy peddling. A not-so-subtle suggestion that Dems were in on it somehow.

Surely you recognize all the Dem and Republican House members by their appearance like you do your aunts and uncles.

Was Hugo Chavez/Dominion involved in this conspiracy too? Must be intergalactic Lord Xenu pulling the strings.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 11:54:33 AM
If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I think Mike Pence and a bunch of other Republicans may need to seek mental health.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/twitter-trending-hang-mike-pence

I was watching coverage live as it happened. I had expected something like this was planned. The fear I saw in the faces and behavior of Republicans was real. They are keeping their mouths shut, but they know.

It's interesting that Republican Representative Adam Kinzinger says he told his staff to stay home because he thought it was too dangerous for them to come to work that day. I guess he needs some mental health too.

Same thing happened to Fox News, Mitch McConnell, and sensible Republicans like Romney now branded as "RINOs" by Trumptards.

They thought they could control the Frankenstein they have created over years.

Now it turns on them, answering only to Master Trump--the ultimate puppet string puller.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 12:00:04 PM
I hear Republicans hide under their desk when they are confused.

I also hear Republican sometimes scream at my fellow republicans when they are confused.

I hear the Republican Minority Leader of the House frequently screams at Donald Trump when he is "confused".

I do admit it's a little hard to see their faces when they are face down on the ground.

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 09, 2021, 12:00:07 PM
If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I think Mike Pence and a bunch of other Republicans may need to seek mental health.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/twitter-trending-hang-mike-pence

I was watching coverage live as it happened. I had expected something like this was planned. The fear I saw in the faces and behavior of Republicans was real. They are keeping their mouths shut, but they know.

It's interesting that Republican Representative Adam Kinzinger says he told his staff to stay home because he thought it was too dangerous for them to come to work that day. I guess he needs some mental health too.

You may be referring to something different, but I was watching the joint session live too.  I was watching the House of Reps breakout.  In the middle of the debate (not sure if that's what it's called), a republican was speaking.  You couldn't see anyone's faces except for his.  There was some commotion and he asked for order in the house, then a different camera angle showed the democrats in the house orderly and calmly walking out the door.  The republicans appeared to be confused and not understanding what was going on.  They remained in their seats while the democrats filed out.  Again, you couldn't see their faces.  A few minutes later it was announced that the capital was under attack.  One of the most bizarre events I've ever seen from start to finish.

Classic JRM conspiracy peddling. A not-so-subtle suggestion that Dems were in on it somehow.

Surely you recognize all the Dem and Republican House members by their appearance like you do your aunts and uncles.

Was Hugo Chavez/Dominion involved in this conspiracy too? Must be intergalactic Lord Xenu pulling the strings.

That was my observation of watching what was going on.  I only provided the comment because ReadtheFootnotes said he could see republicans recoiling in fear.  Quit putting words in my mouth.  Did you watch the joint session live?  What did you observe?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 12:03:28 PM
If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I think Mike Pence and a bunch of other Republicans may need to seek mental health.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/twitter-trending-hang-mike-pence

I was watching coverage live as it happened. I had expected something like this was planned. The fear I saw in the faces and behavior of Republicans was real. They are keeping their mouths shut, but they know.

It's interesting that Republican Representative Adam Kinzinger says he told his staff to stay home because he thought it was too dangerous for them to come to work that day. I guess he needs some mental health too.

You may be referring to something different, but I was watching the joint session live too.  I was watching the House of Reps breakout.  In the middle of the debate (not sure if that's what it's called), a republican was speaking.  You couldn't see anyone's faces except for his.  There was some commotion and he asked for order in the house, then a different camera angle showed the democrats in the house orderly and calmly walking out the door.  The republicans appeared to be confused and not understanding what was going on.  They remained in their seats while the democrats filed out.  Again, you couldn't see their faces.  A few minutes later it was announced that the capital was under attack.  One of the most bizarre events I've ever seen from start to finish.

Classic JRM conspiracy peddling. A not-so-subtle suggestion that Dems were in on it somehow.

Surely you recognize all the Dem and Republican House members by their appearance like you do your aunts and uncles.

Was Hugo Chavez/Dominion involved in this conspiracy too? Must be intergalactic Lord Xenu pulling the strings.

That was my observation of watching what was going on.  I only provided the comment because ReadtheFootnotes said he could see republicans recoiling in fear.  Quit putting words in my mouth.  Did you watch the joint session live?  What did you observe?

I was at work but I watched it later on YouTube.

Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM2g3-HOX0Q&t=5603s

Start it around 1:12:20 and then watch a few minutes.

Go ahead and provide some evidence to your outlandish claims. I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 12:10:44 PM
Here's the Senate Session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27WCKB4g3So

Start at 1:58:00.

An aide walks up to the speaking Republican senator and lets him know "protestors are in the building, Senator". Yet you're going to claim only the Dems knew right?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 09, 2021, 12:11:02 PM
yep, that's it.  Back to my original point.  you can't see any of their faces, so don't tell me how scared they were.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 12:11:51 PM
yep, that's it.  Back to my original point.  you can't see any of their faces, so don't tell me how scared they were.

You can't see their faces, but you know they're Dems walking out of the chamber based on their backsides right?

And let me know what you think of the Senate video.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 09, 2021, 12:15:56 PM
yep, that's it.  Back to my original point.  you can't see any of their faces, so don't tell me how scared they were.

You can't see their faces, but you know they're Dems walking out of the chamber based on their backsides right?

And let me know what you think of the Senate video.

So it sounds like we've established that we can't see their faces.  The only one I can read is Gozar, and he seems confused.  That's of course my biased opinion.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 12:16:03 PM
I also hear that Republicans sometimes scream "this is because of you" or in some cases "this is what you've gotten" at other Trump supporting Republicans when they are confused.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 12:17:03 PM
yep, that's it.  Back to my original point.  you can't see any of their faces, so don't tell me how scared they were.

You can't see their faces, but you know they're Dems walking out of the chamber based on their backsides right?

And let me know what you think of the Senate video.

So it sounds like we've established that we can't see their faces.

I'm calling out this quote from you as hogwash:

Quote
"a different camera angle showed the democrats in the house orderly and calmly walking out the door.  The republicans appeared to be confused and not understanding what was going on.  They remained in their seats while the democrats filed out"

As if implying the Dems knew beforehand. Perhaps that's not how you meant it in which case it's a moot point.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 12:19:08 PM
I also hear that Republicans sometimes scream "this is because of you" or in some cases "this is what you've gotten" at other Trump supporting Republicans when they are confused.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/capitol-riot-senior-trump-official-calls-him-a-fascist.html

Quote
This adviser, who spoke to Trump on Wednesday amid the siege, said Trump watched the events on television intently...

The adviser told me that Trump expressed disgust on aesthetic grounds over how “low class” his supporters looked. “He doesn’t like low-class things,” the adviser said, explaining that Trump had a similar reaction over the summer to a video of Brad Parscale, his former campaign manager, shirtless and drinking a beer in his driveway during a mental-health emergency in which police tackled him and seized his weapons.

But he will manipulate them to his advantage.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 09, 2021, 12:19:42 PM
That's fair.  After watching it again I didn't see what I thought I saw live.  Do you agree that Gozar looks more confused than fearful for his life?  I'm not sure why any of this even matters at this point.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 12:23:36 PM
I mean I don't mock anyone for being panicked in a situation like that other than perhaps those who stoked the rioters, but even that might be harsh.

Note also in the Senate session that President of the Senate Mike Pence who is supposed to be chairing the Senate session is missing. I'm betting Secret Service got him out of there early.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 12:28:17 PM
So it sounds like we've established that we can't see their faces.
Nope. But I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. There is literally hours and hours of footage out there. Some people can look at it with an open mind. Other people might pick a ten second clip and say "you can't see their faces". There is also a ton of still photography available too.

Plus body language and whether the body language is consistent with facial expression can be the most telling of all.

For example, Mitch McConnell was "helped" by Capitol Hill Police to flee because he wasn't able to run fast enough. Which was interesting body language, I'm sure. If you were still awake and still watching live in the wee hours of the morning, you would have seen Democrats making veiled references to what they had seen.

I'm not sure what channel I was watching at that point, but they explained that they were making reference to Mitch McConnell's inability to run due to his age and childhood polio. I'm not sure if they carried him like a sack of potatoes, but I'm guessing it was also sort of a "what happens in the Capitol could stay in the Capitol kind of moment".

Whatever it was there were members of congress who said they had never seen anything like it.

Edit:

Plus afterwards Mitch said that he was so "confused" that he didn't ever want to speak to Trump again.
The next day Mitch's wife was so "confused" that she resigned from Trump's cabinet.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 12:31:17 PM
Obviously if an angry mob is showing up at your door, you will have some sense of urgency...does this surprise anyone? Mobs are thoughtless and indiscriminately violent.

And yes, it was probably the ultimate wake up call for many Congressional Republicans because they finally faced a real world consequence from Trump's antics.

Up until then, the dangers of Trump were largely theoretical as far as they were concerned.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 09, 2021, 12:31:23 PM
I agree its not worth arguing about.  I quit watching the resumption of the counting after Hawley's objection got shot down 92-7.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 12:40:56 PM
That is an interesting evolution of the original "fear in their faces" claim.

You weren't watching the right channel, but I cant name you the channel I was watching

It wasnt really their faces but their "body language"(I never took the "body language" course in school, so maybe I missed it)

Obviously you are biased so you arent willing to see their faces...there are hours of footage out there (that I cant seem to find)

Then we talk about Mitch's running skills, which was never part of the discussion to begin with.


Like I said, more of the same as we've seen over and over again for years. Their minds get the best of them sometimes. For years they've been seeing all these things that never seemed to play out. Almost, conspiracy theory like. I remember a 25th amendment claim maybe 3 years ago, for instance. But its ok. It will all be over in less than 2 weeks. Hopefully the pain and anguish TDS has inflicted upon them won't be long lasting.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 12:42:53 PM
The folks I saw on Wednesday looked to be suffering from much more severe levels of derangement than any liberal I've seen in the past 4 years.

But yeah, Trump has succeeded in making derangement bipartisan.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 12:44:08 PM
May God or whatever higher power is out there and PC have mercy on them too then. The nation needs to heal!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 09, 2021, 12:49:36 PM
None of Trump's supporters seem to take any issue with the mental illnesses defined earlier.

The man is, and has been, mentally ill and recent events only further confirm that fact. So why do some continue to support him? As an individual, that is fine but as a leader that makes no sense.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 12:56:46 PM
Also, the point that you the viewer would realize what was going on, was NOT the point at which THEY realized what was going on. Many in Congress said were all getting texts and calls from staff, friends and family before the moment referenced by Dalal and possibly by JRM.

You also need to remember that they knew that they were on camera and that the whole world could watch, so you have to factor in that they would put a poker face on.

I really don't want to continue this discussion further. Hopefully it was interesting to someone, but I recognize that some people on this board probably lack empathy and have difficulty reading facial expressions, so it's really not the best forum to engage broadly in this discussion.

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 01:01:18 PM
None of Trump's supporters seem to take any issue with the mental illnesses defined earlier.

The man is, and has been, mentally ill and recent events only further confirm that fact. So why do some continue to support him? As an individual, that is fine but as a leader that makes no sense.
There are reports that Mnuchin and Pompeo spoke with reporters and basically said they have engaged in discussion with the Cabinet and that they were not going to pursue the 25th amendment because there wasn't enough time and it was not practical.

They could have said that his mental state is fine, but instead the cabinet chose to say we aren't going to say that Trump is crazy because there's not enough time? If that isn't a signal that he's not in charge and they think he's crazy or that the best choice is to imply he's crazy, I don't know what is.

It clearly didn't come from Trump, because if it came from Trump, the argument would have been that "it's Fake News because he's the smartest, most "sanest" person ever and everybody says so."
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 01:03:31 PM
"and have difficulty reading facial expressions"

Have to be able to see them to read them my man. That said, there is a term for seeing something that isnt there.....

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&source=hp&ei=khn6X5OXMY-4ggeUqYiQAQ&q=word+for+seeing+something+that+isn%27t+there&oq=word+for+seeing+something+that&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAxgAMgUIABDJAzIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB46CAgAELEDEIMBOgsILhCxAxDHARCjAjoFCAAQsQM6AggAOg4ILhCxAxCDARDHARCjAjoICC4QsQMQgwE6DgguEMcBEK8BEMkDEJMCOgUILhCxAzoICAAQsQMQyQM6CwgAELEDEIMBEMkDUJQDWN4mYMIvaABwAHgAgAFIiAHCDZIBAjMwmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab

May we all heal and enjoy the rest of the weekend.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 01:54:26 PM
That's fair.  After watching it again I didn't see what I thought I saw live.  Do you agree that Gozar looks more confused than fearful for his life?  I'm not sure why any of this even matters at this point.
JRM, sorry I missed this post, it could have been interesting to discuss, but it seems neither of us are interesting in sitting around a providing links and timestamps on video as some people might have us do.

I would have been interested in hearing more about what you meant by "after watching it again I didn't see what I thought I saw live". I am sure if I wanted to spend time doing it, I would probably learn more and perceive some things differently too.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: JRM on January 09, 2021, 01:57:05 PM
That's fair.  After watching it again I didn't see what I thought I saw live.  Do you agree that Gozar looks more confused than fearful for his life?  I'm not sure why any of this even matters at this point.
JRM, sorry I missed this post, it could have been interesting to discuss, but it seems neither of us are interesting in sitting around a providing links and timestamps on video as some people might have us do.

I would have been interested in hearing more about what you meant by "after watching it again I didn't see what I thought I saw live". I am sure if I wanted to spend time doing it, I would probably learn more and perceive some things differently too.

Well, I remembered some of the details correctly.  I really thought I remembered the democrats walking out while Gozar was standing there with his hands in the air like "wtf?".  That's not exactly what happened.  Interesting case in mis-remembering.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 09, 2021, 02:15:01 PM
"Well, I remembered some of the details correctly.  I really thought I remembered the democrats walking out while Gozar was standing there with his hands in the air like "wtf?".  That's not exactly what happened.  Interesting case in mis-remembering."

That is an interesting subject in itself.

Recently I saw something and was absolutly positive of what I saw. I later saw the situation on video and what I was absolutly positive I had seen, simply did not occur. I just can't account for that but I do I wonder how many people are in prison because of faulty eye witness testimony.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 02:45:44 PM
You guys must not have had enough fun in your youth. This is a fairly common occurrence at various points in one's life. Usually in your more adventurous years and imaginably again once you start getting up there in age. After a while it became just a shoulder shrug when the smoking hot 10 you swore you took home from the bar isnt quite the same smoking hot 10 you wake up with. As long as the end product is still a 5, the ego doesnt get too bruised. And two nickels always equals a dime, as they say. Although "it wasnt what I remembered it to be/I dont remember at all" may be a subject for the more fun political commentators like LC, IDK.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 09, 2021, 03:38:41 PM
Man , I've been at the gym most of the day, then with the wife.

Looks like I missed an the incredible liberal circle jerk - you guys can talk yourself into anything.

Don't worry boys - you GOT Trump this time. You figured the terror out. What an awful event.

No need to worry about the 20 children those BLM supporters killed in Chicago the last 6 months.
BTW - Murders in Chicago doubled in 2020 - amazing - so happy to hear your outrage on that.
Car Jackings are up 180% in 1 year.  So much for LAW AND ORDER.

But continue on with the Law and Order Breakdown in Washington DC while all these children were murdered by other blacks!

I read today's posts with great interest:   Taleb's diagnosis of you LEFTY Academics  -- Intellectual yet Idiots
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 09, 2021, 03:42:47 PM
Great news! Giuliani heads Trump’s impeachment defense team:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/09/politics/donald-trump-impeachment-lawyers-dershowitz-giuliani/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/09/politics/donald-trump-impeachment-lawyers-dershowitz-giuliani/index.html)
#lawnandorder
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 09, 2021, 03:43:55 PM
^ Never fear Dude - you GOT him this time!!!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: LC on January 09, 2021, 03:48:20 PM
You guys must not have had enough fun in your youth. This is a fairly common occurrence at various points in one's life. Usually in your more adventurous years and imaginably again once you start getting up there in age. After a while it became just a shoulder shrug when the smoking hot 10 you swore you took home from the bar isnt quite the same smoking hot 10 you wake up with. As long as the end product is still a 5, the ego doesnt get too bruised. And two nickels always equals a dime, as they say. Although "it wasnt what I remembered it to be/I dont remember at all" may be a subject for the more fun political commentators like LC, IDK.

Can’t misremember if you were too inebriated to remember in the first place. Win-win! ;)
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 03:53:48 PM
So if a resolution to allow imbibing of fine spirits on the floor is passed they 1) won't have fear on their faces for people to see/not see/read/hear/imagine, and 2) may actually get something done....or do we need cocaine for that?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 09, 2021, 04:15:22 PM
Will Trump use an insanity defense?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 09, 2021, 04:29:01 PM
Will you try Adam Schiff for concocting a Russian Hoax?
Will you try Fat-Boy Jerry Nadler for his Impeachment fiasco, when he had NO WITNESSES?
Will you try Joe, James & Hunter Biden for selling their influence to China, Ukraine and Russia in return for millions?
Will you try James Comey, Andrew McCabe, James Clapper, John Brennan for lying to Congress?
Will you try Susan Rice and Hillary Clinton for lying to Congress and the American people about Benghazi?
Will you try Barrack Obama for spying on the Trump campaign?

Will you?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 09, 2021, 04:35:59 PM
Former Navy Seal and Republican Representative Dan Crenshaw had some interesting things to say about whether his colleagues were scared or "confused". I'm not sure if he got to see their faces or not, but here are his impressions.

Quote
As GOP Rep. Dan Crenshaw of Texas, a Trump loyalist who nevertheless voted to certify the election results, put it to his hometown paper: "All of the members who called for everyone to come and fight and make their last stand, all of those members were scattered like cowards while the Capitol Police had to do the fighting."

https://www.nationaljournal.com/s/711979?unlock=Q23P8J3P9C0I17KJ

Quote
“Let me tell you something very clearly: They’ve been lying to people,” he said on Fox News. “They’ve been lying to millions. They’ve been lying that Jan. 6 was going to be this big solution for election integrity. It was never going to be.”

He continued that “when people fought … those same members of Congress who called people to fight, well, they were nowhere to be found.”

“It was all fun and games to them,” he said. “They never knew what a real fight was. Real fights are scary. Bullets flying, that’s scary. Glass breaking, that’s really scary. … They’ve been talking about the courage to stand up to this. … But when it came down to it, there was no courage.”

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2021/01/08/there-was-no-courage-houston-rep-dan-crenshaw-rips-lawmakers-who-called-people-to-fight-ahead-of-capitol-riot/

Looks like Dan Crenshaw thought he saw what I thought I saw. I'll take his word for it, he probably knows them better than me so he has a better baseline for their facial expressions, body language and it sounds like he got to see their running gait too. Plus I'm sure he had a better view than I did.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 09, 2021, 04:45:25 PM
“Will you try Adam Schiff for concocting a Russian Hoax?"
You still think that was a hoax? Have you ever heard Trump say a bad word about Putin or Russia?

“Will you try Fat-Boy Jerry Nadler for his Impeachment fiasco, when he had NO WITNESSES?
No witnesses? Where are all the witnesses to your “fixed election”? We’re still waiting.

“Will you try Joe, James & Hunter Biden for selling their influence to China, Ukraine and Russia in return for millions?
What elected positions did those people hold over the past four years?

“Will you try James Comey, Andrew McCabe, James Clapper, John Brennan for lying to Congress?
Oh man, this coming from a supporter of the Liar in Chief - the guy who has lied to everyone everywhere.

“Will you try Susan Rice and Hillary Clinton for lying to Congress and the American people about Benghazi?
Last I heard Trump had told 40,000 lies to the American people. Most didn't believe him. Some here did.

“Will you try Barrack Obama for spying on the Trump campaign?
You mean the guy without a birth certificate?

Trump is insane, why do you still defend him?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Gregmal on January 09, 2021, 05:17:26 PM
If 2% of people were effected, or specifically, Jews were going to concentration camps, it would most certainly effect the normal person simply due to community effect. People know people, degrees of separation type stuff. Much different than a lot of the current drama, which is really just people who are paranoid/unnecessarily scared(cwercib, viking, RTF, etc), angry(protesters, rioters, insurrectionists, etc), and scheming(establishment politicians and academics). All of which is inspired preeminently from outlandish news coverage and fueled by social media. Much like republicans who constantly think the communist/socialist takeover is right around the corner, the academics who obsess over this idea of "threats to democracy" fail to realize the idea is much bigger in their heads than it is in terms of anything in real life. We've seen constant talk and statements similar to " I just care cause I kinda like the democracy thing" but the truth is its been boys who cried wolf since before Trump took office and yet here we are, perfectly fine. At which point they move the needle again to something that extends the goalposts like "well we wouldn't have made it much longer or whatever". For all the "talk" from both sides, living in America is pretty damn easy and good. Except maybe in NYC right now, but we cant win them all.

Greg, i am happy to debate ideas. If you want to bring my name into your posts then please reply to my posts and lets have a debate about facts. Or if your want to know what i think please ask and i am happy to give you my thoughts. I would love to do that.

But please, stop with the constant misrepresenting what i post and what i believe.

This board cannot devolve into some posters name calling and labelling other posters. From my perspective that is crossing the line and it needs to stop. It is a slippery slope and it rarely ends well.

This is the second time i have asked.

Not really, you have consistently for the past several years posted largely conspiratorial opinions/theories about what was going to happen to the US, to Trump, to democracy, etc...along with the others mentioned and quite a few more posters. Pretty much none of that has proven accurate, and if the grand "I knew it" was a one day protest at a building deemed more important because government people were there......then I dont know what to say.

After the grand event yesterday, today it was back to business as usual. Including more pointless political stunts about impeachment even though theres less than 2 weeks til inauguration, and non stop media talk continuing to incite and monetize discord.

Greg... SHOW ME THE MONEY :-) What phantom posts are you talking about? Where is the post where i said what you said i said?  I post lots... should be easy to find. But i honestly have no idea what you are talking about. But given that, according to you, i am the one doing the talking, i am at a bit of a disadvantage because i am not able to get inside your head.

Let’s have a big boy debate.... you know one with facts (like an actual post i made and something i actually said). I might learn something and... you might too (yes, i hate that too when it happens :-).

Is the problem that you do not want to debate the facts? Or is it that when you say something it automatically just becomes a fact (my wife says i am like that sometimes)? Or is it that you don’t care about facts at all, and your having a bad day, and you just need to vent?

Everybody agrees fake news is a major problem these days. There is an easy solution... debate what people on the board actually say when they say it. And cut out the paraphrasing and mischaracterizations of what they say or believe after the fact.

Pease note, i am not saying that i don’t post dumb things from time to time (and maybe more than that). Maybe those are the posts you are referencing. The problem is, i have no idea what you are talking about.

And, yes, i do enjoy skewering Trump (lately, its been like taking candy from a baby); when i skewer him i usually try and be fact based. From time to time, Prem as well. Happy to debate those facts.

I try not to skewer members of this board. Or speak for them. If i do, please let me know when i do and i will back off. My view is that is crossing the line. Hitting below the belt. R E S P E C T

My view is everyone on this board is on the same team. Yes, we all come from very different backgrounds. We have different values. And we have very different views. The diversity of opinion (and how that flows through to investing ideas and general discussion topics) is the secret sauce that has made this board work for decades.

I didnt see this earlier, but in any event...we can agree to disagree on what interpretations were. You are more objective than some of the worst offenders for sure. It seems you want to distance yourself from the others, which is understandable. I dont think the stuff youve stated prior has been as egregiously wrong, time and time again, as they have been, so Ill give you that.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Xerxes on January 09, 2021, 06:43:04 PM
Awesome insight especially regarding Iran, but I expect nothing less from someone with the screen name Xerxes.

Iran interests me, as I have relatives who lived in Iran when Khomeini gained power and some of them  have become hardline islamists and other are very moderate - a long story by itself.

My thinking is that over time, the Iranian hard lines have morphed from crazies to actually become more rational over time. I think that over the long run With the changes with Saudii leadership,  the Saudi’s may become the bigger threat to the West than the Iranians ever have been.

You are correct (imo) that allegiances are constantly shifting and that makes it problematic to align ourself with any nation but Israel there. i think the good News is that with the lower dependency from crude the strategic importance of this region and the Saudi’s has diminished and it is probably the best thing that ever happened to us.

Thanks Spekulatius.
I think we have one more round of craziness to go in Tehran. The hardliner will most likely take power in 2021 election. Their platform in 2015-16 has been that the more moderates Iranian working with the Americans during the nuclear negotiations were fools to make a deal with U.S. and that you cannot trust U.S. and that they will screw you at the end. Sadly, this is exactly what transpired and no economic benefit came to Iran with all the additional sanctions. I dont know what will happen but I think another decade is needed, until that 1980s generation is gone, retired etc. Wars are often short, scars however runs for decades. The thing to watch is the supreme leader's diminishing health and which faction will replace him.

I think that constantly shifting web of alliances will see to it, that neither Iran, nor Turkey nor Saudi Arabia reign supreme in the middle east. All three will remain great power, but no one of them will be too dominant. That said, it will not stop the three power blocks in their proxy conflicts.

On Saudi Arabia, couple of headwinds for them, aside the more obvious one which the future of oil:

- House of Salman vs. House of Saud:
For decades, the Kingdom functioned as a consensus, where sons of Saud ib al Aziz held power through different mediums but always worked in consensus. For example, if one was king, another brother would foreign minister while another would US Ambassador. So the different factions within House of Saud, all had a say and skin in the game. That meant the Kingdom moved slowly but was more conservative, working in the background. Egyptians, Pakistani were all on Saudi payroll in their proxy wars.

Then the current King, Salman, had his son MBS appointed as crown prince. And effectively the power structure became very centralized around specifically the House of Salman. Maybe that is what the Kingdom needed, fresh blood and more speed. However, the young man had only made mistakes since 2015: the war in Yemen, the blockade of Qatar, the assassination in Istanbul etc. to name the big ones.

- Yemen:
Iran has a lot of influence in Lebanon, Iraq and Syria, but not much in Yemen at the onset of the Saudi invasion. The invasion was more a coming out party for the new crown prince showcasing a new Saudi Arabia which is more active and at the forefront and leading the Arab world. Sadly, it became their Vietnam. Not only that, the war gave Iran a reason to get involved with the Houthi. Iran's influence increased a lot because of the Saudi. Yemen was a call option that Iran had, and Saudis drove it past its strike price. Even the U.S. Congress (surprisingly) grew a spine, and said something about no longer authorizing U.S. tankers refueling Saudi fighter planes on their way to bomb the Yemenis. Emiratis withdraw from the war-about-nothing I think a year ago or so. This is just bad decision making by a 30 year old crown prince at a helm of country, playing Age of Empires, in one of the most volatile region in the world.

We wont get into Qatar. Difference is that Qatar was extremely wealthy and had Turkey as a close ally, and also incidentally a U.S. air base in Doha. If Qatar was not the wealthy country that it was, it would have slaughtered by the Saudis just like what they did in Yemen.


- Population:
The Kingdom has about 33 million souls. Compared with 80 million in Iran and similar number in Turkey. Saudi Arabia looks huge on the map, but with a very small population. It has been effectively being able to hit above its weight due to the petrodollars windfall. So no doubt that they feel insecure (due to their much smaller population) when looking north at Iran and its potential, and vice versa Iran feels insecure when it sees itself surrounded by U.S. military bases everywhere.

In my opinion, to be able to have critical mass as a great power, you need to have a large working population that is not rely on handouts.  Saudi Arabia does not have that. They know how to spend on military procurement, but do not know how to fight wars. They do not know how to die for their country, simply because, they always paid others to do their work. Iran on the other hand, out of nothing has build up a foreign legion force pinning down its enemies outside Iran proper, and all that with the whole world against it. Yet, that ingenuity, energy and resource would have been far better spent in developing the country rather than empire building.

I only hope that both Tehran and Riyah come to their senses.

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 09, 2021, 06:59:34 PM
Yes it is a sad day for America.

As Trump’s mind further unravels and he becomes more isolated and dangerous as he descends further into his own delusional world, even his most faithful supporters must see how dangerous and deranged the man has become.
                                    
Many of his supporters have maintained that Trump would go peacefully if he lost the election, just as those who in 2016 said that he would become more reasonable and ‘presidential” if he won. Obviously nothing could be further from the truth as he continues to his war to undermine American democracy.

What a gift to the leaders of Russia, China and North Korea - remember, those same three leaders that he told us were his best friends? They were, as they set him up to drag the country down and embarrass the very idea of democracy.

His encouragement of insurrection has resulted in the deaths of several people and yet millions still support him giving tacit approval to his actions.

How can the US continue to be a democracy if every US election is followed by ever more serious unrest and violence? Can there be any doubt that Trump has wanted to become the autocratic ruler of the United States even if it involved a coup, bloody or not? Remember his words to the Proud Boys, "Stand back and stand by"? He has been planning this for some time.

This is not over. It doesn’t take a psychologist or a psychiatrist to see that man is mentally ill - even Pence has not ruled out using the 25th Amendment out and the calls for his resignation and impeachment are increasing.

The problems he is creating within the country leave it very vulnerable to both internal and external terrorist action.  And those who continue to support him share responsibility for what is happening because he thrives on their support and sees it as validation.

It is indeed a sad day - not only for America, but for democracy around the free world.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 09, 2021, 08:24:04 PM
Ironically, in my view--with Wednesday's events, Trump played himself. As usual, he can't get out of his own way.

Before all of this, I had good odds on him playing a major role in the GOP going forward and either successfully getting nomination in 2024 or having a proxy run for him.

Now that he hit every single member of Congress directly enough shake many of them up and piss them off, I've lowered the chances of the above happening to well below 50%. Maybe now ~15%.

I still won't count the sociopath completely out. He has skill in manipulation.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 09, 2021, 11:13:14 PM
Awesome insight especially regarding Iran, but I expect nothing less from someone with the screen name Xerxes.

Iran interests me, as I have relatives who lived in Iran when Khomeini gained power and some of them  have become hardline islamists and other are very moderate - a long story by itself.

My thinking is that over time, the Iranian hard lines have morphed from crazies to actually become more rational over time. I think that over the long run With the changes with Saudii leadership,  the Saudi’s may become the bigger threat to the West than the Iranians ever have been.

You are correct (imo) that allegiances are constantly shifting and that makes it problematic to align ourself with any nation but Israel there. i think the good News is that with the lower dependency from crude the strategic importance of this region and the Saudi’s has diminished and it is probably the best thing that ever happened to us.

Thanks Spekulatius.
I think we have one more round of craziness to go in Tehran. The hardliner will most likely take power in 2021 election. Their platform in 2015-16 has been that the more moderates Iranian working with the Americans during the nuclear negotiations were fools to make a deal with U.S. and that you cannot trust U.S. and that they will screw you at the end. Sadly, this is exactly what transpired and no economic benefit came to Iran with all the additional sanctions. I dont know what will happen but I think another decade is needed, until that 1980s generation is gone, retired etc. Wars are often short, scars however runs for decades. The thing to watch is the supreme leader's diminishing health and which faction will replace him.

I think that constantly shifting web of alliances will see to it, that neither Iran, nor Turkey nor Saudi Arabia reign supreme in the middle east. All three will remain great power, but no one of them will be too dominant. That said, it will not stop the three power blocks in their proxy conflicts.

On Saudi Arabia, couple of headwinds for them, aside the more obvious one which the future of oil:

- House of Salman vs. House of Saud:
For decades, the Kingdom functioned as a consensus, where sons of Saud ib al Aziz held power through different mediums but always worked in consensus. For example, if one was king, another brother would foreign minister while another would US Ambassador. So the different factions within House of Saud, all had a say and skin in the game. That meant the Kingdom moved slowly but was more conservative, working in the background. Egyptians, Pakistani were all on Saudi payroll in their proxy wars.

Then the current King, Salman, had his son MBS appointed as crown prince. And effectively the power structure became very centralized around specifically the House of Salman. Maybe that is what the Kingdom needed, fresh blood and more speed. However, the young man had only made mistakes since 2015: the war in Yemen, the blockade of Qatar, the assassination in Istanbul etc. to name the big ones.

- Yemen:
Iran has a lot of influence in Lebanon, Iraq and Syria, but not much in Yemen at the onset of the Saudi invasion. The invasion was more a coming out party for the new crown prince showcasing a new Saudi Arabia which is more active and at the forefront and leading the Arab world. Sadly, it became their Vietnam. Not only that, the war gave Iran a reason to get involved with the Houthi. Iran's influence increased a lot because of the Saudi. Yemen was a call option that Iran had, and Saudis drove it past its strike price. Even the U.S. Congress (surprisingly) grew a spine, and said something about no longer authorizing U.S. tankers refueling Saudi fighter planes on their way to bomb the Yemenis. Emiratis withdraw from the war-about-nothing I think a year ago or so. This is just bad decision making by a 30 year old crown prince at a helm of country, playing Age of Empires, in one of the most volatile region in the world.

We wont get into Qatar. Difference is that Qatar was extremely wealthy and had Turkey as a close ally, and also incidentally a U.S. air base in Doha. If Qatar was not the wealthy country that it was, it would have slaughtered by the Saudis just like what they did in Yemen.


- Population:
The Kingdom has about 33 million souls. Compared with 80 million in Iran and similar number in Turkey. Saudi Arabia looks huge on the map, but with a very small population. It has been effectively being able to hit above its weight due to the petrodollars windfall. So no doubt that they feel insecure (due to their much smaller population) when looking north at Iran and its potential, and vice versa Iran feels insecure when it sees itself surrounded by U.S. military bases everywhere.

In my opinion, to be able to have critical mass as a great power, you need to have a large working population that is not rely on handouts.  Saudi Arabia does not have that. They know how to spend on military procurement, but do not know how to fight wars. They do not know how to die for their country, simply because, they always paid others to do their work. Iran on the other hand, out of nothing has build up a foreign legion force pinning down its enemies outside Iran proper, and all that with the whole world against it. Yet, that ingenuity, energy and resource would have been far better spent in developing the country rather than empire building.

I only hope that both Tehran and Riyah come to their senses.

Xerxes, we need to start a thread on the middle east to capture your posts. It is a region i understand only a little. Your posts have helped, especially with understanding Iran. I have been trying to understand Obama’s pivot and then Trumps shift again (in US policy). There has been so much going on in that region in the past 5-10 years (Turkey, Arab Spring etc).
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 10, 2021, 05:47:10 AM
Lol “peaceful” Trump years of riots across the country and in the Capitol and rise of leftist and right wing extremism.

What a “peaceful” time it was having a guy who routinely pours gasoline on fires as POTUS!

He sure gave one peaceful speech on the lawn on Wednesday. He’s like a soothing balm. A healer.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite peaceful here - even under Trump. I think people are lulled into thinking that the world is a peaceful place. It isn't.

We are much closer to "best it can get" then we are "can't get any worse." If the Democrats force their way, there will be consequences - and probably severe.

The closest we have been to civil war in 160 years, and more American dying needlessly due to a pandemic than in previous wars, the president turning his own people against each other? There are many Americans who are terrified on a daily basis, because of Trump. Yep, sounds peaceful.

You claim to be a christian. As a christian, can you feel no empathy for the people who are suffering in America and believe that Trump and Trumpists are to blame? So many people have lost their jobs due to the pandemic, and some portion of that is unnecessary. So many people have lost their lives this year due to the pandemic and some portion was completely preventable with better leadership.

As for the people on the left, especially the extreme left, I don't agree with many them, I probably wouldn't want to spend time with them, I expect I will find myself in opposition to their beliefs and opinions, but even though I am very fortunate not to be in their position, I would like to end their pain for them. Anyone who can't feel that kind of compassion when it would be so easy to put aside, and try to deescalate the situation and work together with reasonable moderates, should not call themself a christian or even a good citizen in my opinion.

If people are afraid of Trump, they need to seek mental health. I'm serious. I'm quite sure for the vast majority of people if they turned off their computer/tv/phone and didn't talk about politics to anyone and lived their life from 2016-2020 they wouldn't know anything was different.

I didn't say that it was "peaceful". I'm saying that we are much, much closer to peace then destruction. Is it more peaceful than in the 90s? No but that was an abnormal time. Personally, I would feel much safer today than say during the Cold War when a nuclear war could start off at any moment. Americans have been coddled for too long and it has made us weak.

I feel empathy for people, sure. With that said, just because they "feel" Trump is to blame that doesn't mean they're right. Sure, different leadership could have prevented more covid deaths. But, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have lead to the increase of other deaths.

By the way, why do you capitalize Trump and America but not Christian? I can assure you that the later one is far more important and will last longer than the first two. ;)

Have you heard of a person named Brian Sicknick? (My guess is his family might disagree with you.)  And the 50 law enforcement injured? 2 bombs planted? The elected officials who were evacuated... a big, big overreaction?

Now i understand... Trump had nothing to do with any of this. Its not like he called the rally, spoke to the crowd, incited them, told them where to  go or commended them for their actions afterwards...

It's sad that he was killed. Though, I said for the vast majority of would have no idea that things are different if they just lived their lives. Look at Obama and his pushing of transgender propaganda and "everyone one is racist" nonsense.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/obama-administration-title-ix-transgender-student-rights-223149

I didn't say Trump "had nothing to do with any of this." The guy is a nut job but he's better than the liberals who call "hate" on everything they disagree with.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 10, 2021, 06:05:21 AM
It's sad that he was killed. Though, I said for the vast majority of would have no idea that things are different if they just lived their lives. Look at Obama and his pushing of transgender propaganda and "everyone one is racist" nonsense.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/obama-administration-title-ix-transgender-student-rights-223149

I didn't say Trump "had nothing to do with any of this." The guy is a nut job but he's better than the liberals who call "hate" on everything they disagree with.

"I think it's possible we'll look back someday and miss the peaceful times of Trump's presidency." Just live your lives, get off the computer, and stop focusing on political things that don't affect your lives like mob violence a few days ago that stopped a joint session of Congress.

-Also-

"Here is a totally irrelevant article about Obama from 2016 about his views on gender/racism" !

Love our "moderates".
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cwericb on January 10, 2021, 07:13:58 AM
“I didn't say Trump "had nothing to do with any of this." The guy is a nut job ...”

Right there. Why is that so difficult to understand? Trump is NUTS.

Paul and I don’t agree on a lot but Paul sees Trump for what he is and admits it. Trump is nuttier than a fruitcake. The man is off his rocker. Yet others here still continue to support and make excuses for this mentally ill jackass. You guys aren’t stupid, surely there are others on the right who are more deserving of your support. Those who still believe Trump's delusional lies, like the "fixed election", need to step back and take a closer look at their source of information. 
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 10, 2021, 07:16:10 AM
It's sad that he was killed. Though, I said for the vast majority of would have no idea that things are different if they just lived their lives. Look at Obama and his pushing of transgender propaganda and "everyone one is racist" nonsense.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/obama-administration-title-ix-transgender-student-rights-223149

I didn't say Trump "had nothing to do with any of this." The guy is a nut job but he's better than the liberals who call "hate" on everything they disagree with.

"I think it's possible we'll look back someday and miss the peaceful times of Trump's presidency." Just live your lives, get off the computer, and stop focusing on political things that don't affect your lives like mob violence a few days ago that stopped a joint session of Congress.

-Also-

"Here is a totally irrelevant article about Obama from 2016 about his views on gender/racism" !

Love our "moderates".

My point is that Obama is much more forceful pushing his agenda.

So, what in your life has changed from a day to day perspective since Trump took office?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: no_free_lunch on January 10, 2021, 07:19:16 AM
It was not a coup attempt, it was a protest.  If it was a coup attempt there would be a lot more bodies.  By the way 4 out of 5 killed were trump supporters. Good chance the cop who died was right wing as well.

The big issue right now is why big tech is censoring the right. After the Twitter games trump shifted to Parler. Now Amazon has shut off the hosting for that site.  I repeat they shut down an entire social media site because trump was using it.  Wtf is this?

You guys are not going to talk to me about democracy when you are controlling the media.

Regarding Trump's future with the GOP. The plan is clearly that a new party will be created.  Seems like it could create some real issues for conservatives with the vote split but nevertheless that's the plan.  Maybe gop swings to the center and Dems go even further left.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 10, 2021, 07:30:23 AM
Just live your lives, get off the computer, and stop focusing on political things that don't affect your lives like mob violence a few days ago that stopped a joint session of Congress.

You didn't seem to shed a tear during last year's arson and murder-fest...

Oh, I understand now ---  "It was such a noble cause" . "It was in the name of systematic racism"

Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 10, 2021, 08:02:34 AM
My point is that Obama is much more forceful pushing his agenda.

So, what in your life has changed from a day to day perspective since Trump took office?

Clearly Barack Obama is still affecting your day to day life.

I find it amusing that you advise to rise above the moment and not get steeped in politics when you keep bringing up former Presidents and ignoring transgressions of current Presidents...

Most moderates, even those with R's next to their names like Pence, Romney, and Murkowski recognize the seriousness of Wednesday's events. Even if it doesn't "affect day to day life", they will go in the history books because they have significance.

It's a tail event and your and other's efforts to dismiss it as "but my life from waking to bed is unchanged!" is laughable. If that's the threshold for worthwhile discussion on here, then we should halt all discussion of the politics section.

Does Obama's views on gender/race from 5 years ago affect your day to day life? Sounds like a chronic case of Obama Derangement Syndrome.

Clearly you don't believe your own points and are merely just trying to deflect from the transgressions of the current President.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 10, 2021, 08:11:57 AM
Just live your lives, get off the computer, and stop focusing on political things that don't affect your lives like mob violence a few days ago that stopped a joint session of Congress.

You didn't seem to shed a tear during last year's arson and murder-fest...

Oh, I understand now ---  "It was such a noble cause" . "It was in the name of systematic racism"

Nah, I spoke out against the violence/arson/looting at the time and still do. Nice try.

Hope Maxine isn't keeping you up at night!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 10, 2021, 08:31:29 AM
^ Noted Dalal.

Nah, even with Maxine around, I sleep like a baby knowing that Trump is in charge of the country.

It will be different with Joe Hiden and the Komrade running the joint.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 10, 2021, 08:41:24 AM
Lol, we’ll see. If he’s “Hiden”, you have nothing to worry about.

My optimistic prediction is that politics will go back to being mucho boring very soon.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 10, 2021, 12:24:24 PM
My point is that Obama is much more forceful pushing his agenda.

So, what in your life has changed from a day to day perspective since Trump took office?

Clearly Barack Obama is still affecting your day to day life.

I find it amusing that you advise to rise above the moment and not get steeped in politics when you keep bringing up former Presidents and ignoring transgressions of current Presidents...

Most moderates, even those with R's next to their names like Pence, Romney, and Murkowski recognize the seriousness of Wednesday's events. Even if it doesn't "affect day to day life", they will go in the history books because they have significance.

It's a tail event and your and other's efforts to dismiss it as "but my life from waking to bed is unchanged!" is laughable. If that's the threshold for worthwhile discussion on here, then we should halt all discussion of the politics section.

Does Obama's views on gender/race from 5 years ago affect your day to day life? Sounds like a chronic case of Obama Derangement Syndrome.

Clearly you don't believe your own points and are merely just trying to deflect from the transgressions of the current President.

Well, you see, Obama's forceful policies do affect my day to day life. I have small children and I don't want them being taught that they can choose their gender nor do I want my daughter being denied athletic achievements to a biological male.

I'm not ignoring Trump or the things that he's done. As I've said before, the guy is a turd. But, what alternative do I have?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Spekulatius on January 10, 2021, 01:22:54 PM

Well, you see, Obama's forceful policies do affect my day to day life. I have small children and I don't want them being taught that they can choose their gender nor do I want my daughter being denied athletic achievements to a biological male.

I'm not ignoring Trump or the things that he's done. As I've said before, the guy is a turd. But, what alternative do I have?

You really are quite something with your transgender phobia. I have fiends with kids in 3 different states and none of them had issues with this about transgenders competing against girls either anywhere.
Raising kids isn’t easy, but you really getting hung up on a nothingburger.

None of this has anything to do with Obama anyways.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 10, 2021, 01:23:08 PM
Well, you see, Obama's forceful policies do affect my day to day life. I have small children and I don't want them being taught that they can choose their gender nor do I want my daughter being denied athletic achievements to a biological male.

I'm not ignoring Trump or the things that he's done. As I've said before, the guy is a turd. But, what alternative do I have?

I somehow doubt former President Obama's "forceful policies" affect you today or any day since post January 2017.

Trump's attacks on the rule of law have the potential to affect me and everyone I know. I imagine everyone on here too.

His radicalization of large swaths of the population by feeding them misinformation (whilst grifting from them) also has large risk to many people who abide by the rule of law. As you saw, these folks can easily be turned into a mob to unleash onto the Capitol or a pizzeria.

I'm more worried about the rule of law than what my kids are taught in school as far as social issues.

I'd give my kids the benefit of doubt when it comes to critical thinking skills if they were taught b.s. in school.

You seem to think gender issues will be forced down society. Well if people like Joe Manchin and myself don't agree with leftist views on these things, what chance will they be passed with their slim majority? Will these things be taught nationwide like in small towns in TX?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 10, 2021, 01:38:00 PM
If you don't like Dems, you should hope they blow their political capital on such issues. Doing so will alienate a very large portion of the electorate and bite them in the behind.

That's usually their level of strategery anyway...Nancy just panders on such issues and leaves the meat--immigration, healthcare, economic packages--on the backburner.

Compare that to Mitch--he'll let the crazy R's go off on their radical rhetoric while he actually works behind the scenes passing the meat as legislation. He's actually stolen 2 Supreme Court seats from Dems too.

IMO shows how clueless Trump supporters are for turning against McConnell...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 10, 2021, 01:53:51 PM
^ A very good point worth considering. Well done Dalal.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 10, 2021, 02:23:21 PM
If you don't like Dems, you should hope they blow their political capital on such issues. Doing so will alienate a very large portion of the electorate and bite them in the behind.

That's usually their level of strategery anyway...Nancy just panders on such issues and leaves the meat--immigration, healthcare, economic packages--on the backburner.

Compare that to Mitch--he'll let the crazy R's go off on their radical rhetoric while he actually works behind the scenes passing the meat as legislation. He's actually stolen 2 Supreme Court seats from Dems too.

IMO shows how clueless Trump supporters are for turning against McConnell...
I would add some additional thoughts for those who identify with Trump.

A lot of the nutty left are reacting to Trump and Trumpists. If we can agree to get rid of Trump, the nutty parts of the left will have their power will be stolen from them. Some of them, like AOC clearly look up to Trump for his social media tactics and emulate them.

The belligerent BS from Trump and Steven Miller are what we have to blame for the popularity of the more radical elements. Steven Miller and this "owning libs" would never come to any good. Triggering people intentionally is not a good long-term strategy for anything other than creating enemies.

The repugnant people on the left utilize outrage and anger on social media just like those on the right have.
If we can dump Trump, and move toward a more civil, respectful society, the nutbags on both sides will lose all their power and those of us who aren't completely lost to the extreme cults of the right, or the the left will all be happier. Those who are essentially cultists may not enjoy the coming years nearly as much, if the trend of moderation is successful.

If you don't want regulation of hateful speech on social media or limits on the ability to organize insurrections, maybe you should think about the fact that the Trumpists are unlikely to win and the USA will likely remain, but radical elements on the right and the left is learning their tricks. Do you really want the left to have a better shot at successfully overthrowing the US Gov't in a few years? Plus these are now lessons that foreign adversaries have learned.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 10, 2021, 02:34:32 PM
^ What's lost on this viewpoint is that the "Center" of the Republican Party IS TRUMP.

It's the "working class" - which use to be Democratic - but was left behind by the Democrats.  Republicans never gave a shit about the working class.
Like it or not, Trump fought the ENTIRE Republican Party, and transformed it into a whole new party.

Issues like open borders, illegal immigration, job losses, rebuilding Middle America and exposing China were ALL brilliant Trump initiatives -
much to the embarrassment of the old gutless Republican Party.

No one is going to get behind a loser like Mitt Romney ever again. He's more of the same old Republicans shtick that gives two shits about Middle America.

The Republican Leadership may not be with Trump - but they will never survive as a viable party without him. There is no going back.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 10, 2021, 03:37:42 PM
Former Republican governor of CA who grew up in Austria shares views of Wednesday's events. I thought it was on point:

https://twitter.com/Schwarzenegger/status/1348249481284874240?s=20



I'm sure many people went about their "normal day to day life" the day after Kristallnacht as well, doesn't mean it wasn't a significant and dark day...
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 10, 2021, 03:53:21 PM
^ Yeah, and it was very interesting about how Arnold left out the other half of the story. I've always been a big Arnold fan.
Too bad his premise is built on a foundation of lies. No mention of the Biden Crime Family and their significant efforts to enrich themselves,
while agents of the Federal Government. China, Ukraine, Russia. Not one word. No mention of the DNC leadership failures leading to the
destruction of our cities. Not one word about the thousands of sworn affidavits on election fraud.

Nice try though Arnold. If you want to get the other 75M behind you - try telling both sides of the story instead of producing a propaganda hit piece.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 10, 2021, 04:29:03 PM
The Republican Leadership may not be with Trump - but they will never survive as a viable party without him. There is no going back.

If the Senate convicts Trump he will be ineligible.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: adesigar on January 10, 2021, 04:37:09 PM
The Republican Leadership may not be with Trump - but they will never survive as a viable party without him. There is no going back.

If the Senate convicts Trump he will be ineligible.

Won’t happen. The Republicans need the votes of his cult followers.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 10, 2021, 04:43:06 PM
The Republican Leadership may not be with Trump - but they will never survive as a viable party without him. There is no going back.

If the Senate convicts Trump he will be ineligible.
Corporate America is going to end the party before they even get a chance to convict. Citibank is the fourth and latest major corporation to ban giving to Trumpists. The flood of corporations that have pledged not to give money to those who objected to counting the votes has just started. No money=no party. Also, the myth that  business loves Trump is about to vanish.

In other news, The PGA has banned all business with Trump. Wouldn't surprise me if the USGA refuses to do business with Trump in the future. Those golf courses aren't going to be as valuable if you can't use the handicapping system.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 10, 2021, 04:47:26 PM
The Republican Leadership may not be with Trump - but they will never survive as a viable party without him. There is no going back.

If the Senate convicts Trump he will be ineligible.

Won’t happen. The Republicans need the votes of his cult followers.
It's going to happen, but it may not happen for about three months, and Trump and his cronies may be in handcuffs by then. Convicting Trump in the Senate will be a lot easier for Republicans when the narrative has evolved over the next three months and voters are already used to seeing Trump in a jumpsuit.

In addition to the political risk, the risk of being executed by a mob will be much lower for Republicans in three months. Plus they will be able to share the risk with the judiciary. The Judicial Branch is also more equipped to deal with dangerous criminals, and will likely be busy locking up many Trumpists at all levels.

We've seen that Republicans and Trump supporters in particular have a remarkable ability to lap up absolute fictions, so the Republicans have about three months to create some slowly evolving fiction that allows the party to bring as many voters along as possible, but the complete destruction or at least a splintering of the Republican Party is also very likely.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 10, 2021, 04:56:53 PM
You guys just kill me with your comedy routine.

Obama and Hillary led 4 heroes to their death in Benghazi but refusing to protect/re-inforce them when they rushed to protect the US Embassy.
Such utter and complete incompetence.

Worse yet, they concocted a bogus cover-up and lied to the Nation for weeks - until emails from Hillary to Chelsea were discovered by Judicial-Watch.

By your standards - both should have been impeached/executed for causing the murder of 4 brave Americans.

What a bunch of hypocritical clowns!!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Viking on January 11, 2021, 05:23:47 PM
We are starting to see the fallout for Trump from his actions last week. When your most staunch supporters want nothing to do with you, you are in deep, deep shit. Money tap is also being turned off (is money important in US politics?). Ban on social media (no megaphone).

This has got to be driving the man crazy... except, can it get any worse for him?

Patriots’ Belichick won’t accept Presidential Medal of Freedom.
- https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/bill-belichick-medal-of-freedom.html?action=click&module=Alert&pgtype=Homepage
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: cubsfan on January 11, 2021, 05:26:07 PM
^ Agree - There is NOTHING like the Cancel Culture of the LEFT in action. Congratulations.

It's a lonely place for Trump and 75M+ Americans.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: stahleyp on January 12, 2021, 05:12:53 AM

Well, you see, Obama's forceful policies do affect my day to day life. I have small children and I don't want them being taught that they can choose their gender nor do I want my daughter being denied athletic achievements to a biological male.

I'm not ignoring Trump or the things that he's done. As I've said before, the guy is a turd. But, what alternative do I have?

You really are quite something with your transgender phobia. I have fiends with kids in 3 different states and none of them had issues with this about transgenders competing against girls either anywhere.
Raising kids isn’t easy, but you really getting hung up on a nothingburger.

None of this has anything to do with Obama anyways.


I don't think the term phobia is really appropriate here (people use it because it's emotionally charged). A phobia is an irrational fear. There is evidence that this kind of stuff is already happening.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9886252/bbc-schools-children-100-genders/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/05/13/california-wants-teach-kindergartners-about-gender-identity-seriously/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-why-the-surge-in-gender-dysphoria-among-teenage-girls/

Now, you might be right in saying that I'm overweighting the probability of this occurring but it certainly is occurring. I suppose it doesn't help that my brother is a teacher and he said this is increasing too.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: LC on January 12, 2021, 10:50:25 AM
For the folks arguing that trade is sometimes bad:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-11/how-china-won-trump-s-good-and-easy-to-win-trade-war?srnd=premium

Interesting how Trump's trade war with China resulted in an increased trade deficit w China. Economics 101 fail from Donny Stumps and his blind supporters.
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on January 12, 2021, 11:28:20 AM
Well Trump clearly won the “easy to win” Trade War, banned Tiktok, built That Wall, fixed healthcare, now leaving us to be awed for his final week: infrastructure week!

So many tangible victories that have made us “great” again...Tired of winning?
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Parsad on January 14, 2021, 08:26:19 AM
^ Agree - There is NOTHING like the Cancel Culture of the LEFT in action. Congratulations.

It's a lonely place for Trump and 75M+ Americans.

Hmmm, I would probably drop that number down to about 55M after what happened at the Capitol.  Alot of those in the middle have firmly moved away from  the orange ass blossom and his administration!  Cheers!
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 18, 2021, 07:27:44 AM
Republican legislators are calling this a coup attempt. Anyone who said that we didn't have to worry about a coup attempt has finally been proven wrong.

People are going to die over this. Probably more likely protestors than anyone else. There are reports of gunfire, and pipe bombs. I saw video of people being taken out in ambulances on stretchers.

Plus with COVID, it is likely that police and especially older members of government and staffers may die from this chaos and the need to seek shelter in cramped spaces.

Plus this will be all sorts of risks for the police and other security agencies.

The "law and order President" has just given the USA it's first coup.
So this post was written has it happened. How have these forecasts turned out?

1) Plenty of Republican leaders are continuing to call this a coup attempt. So that statement of fact has only grown as more legislators, governors and retired Republican leaders.  So that one stands the test of time. Plus respected news publications and academic experts and military experts all agree. With time more truth will come out, the time line will be further developed and extended back in time and culpability will be more broadly understood by the public.

2) Though this was written before the reports of any deaths, we now know that:

-Officer Sicknick died from being beaten to death with a fire extinguisher
-Another officer committed suicide. 
(https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/01/10/another-capitol-police-death-officer-dies-by-suicide-after-responding-to-pro-trump-riot/?sh=41ce61de70dd)
-One seditionist shot and killed by a USCP officer on protective detail
-One seditionist killed when trampled by the mob
-One seditionist killed after accidentally tazing himself
-One seditionist killed after falling off a wall he was climbing

-One seditionist killed himself after being arrested
(https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-man-arrested-following-capitol-insurrection-has-died-by-suicide/TYSJF7II6JG63G7K6JGON522JQ/)
-One financial supporter who paid $522,000 for the riot committed suicide after his contribution was exposed
 (https://news.yahoo.com/500k-bitcoin-sent-france-us-162856976.html)

3) At least five members of congress seem to blame their contracting COVID on the riots
(https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2021/01/14/a-fifth-lawmaker-has-tested-positive-for-coronavirus-after-sheltering-in-place-during-the-capitol-riot/?sh=18e76cd96e08)

4) Regarding COVID and police and other security forces, I doubt we will have much information released to the public due to ongoing security risks. It would seem to reason that USCP were at greater risk than than the Congress due to a lack of masks among the seditionists, the close quarters and the extended physicality of the melee. So if people in congress contracted it, there must be a lot of USCP who contracted it.

Seems like these forecasts have held up well.


Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 18, 2021, 07:53:21 AM

The first death has been announced. RIP poor victim of another Trump grift.

As sad as this all is, I do not think we should underestimate the probability of the following taking place:

-The joint session completes their constitutional duties as early as this evening. Process of Biden becoming the next President completed.
-25th Amendment being invoked within 24 hours
-Trump impeached within the next day or two
-Trump convicted and removed before the completion of his term

Other serious risks that currently exist is that Trump will flee the country. Impeaching, removing, and convicting Trump of sedition or some other crime and putting him behind bars, would remove the risk of him fomenting insurrection from exile or sharing the information he would take with him in his head with the enemies of the USA.

We also should consider that Giuliani, Stone and other dirty tricksters may find themselves behind bars again soon.
This post was written while the capitol was still under siege. How did my immediate impressions hold up?

First, if I had taken more time to write this post, I likely would have written something more like "we should not underestimate the probability that any one of the following might happen". I think would have more accurately captured my point regarding a Bayesian approach to updating estimates regarding potential outcomes and the time required to achieve an outcome.

Seen in that light, it seems spot on, especially given that most all Trumpists seemed to think I was nuts at the time.

1) Yes, the Congress did return that evening and confirmed Biden during a session that lasted way in to the evening. There were no real substantive attempts to object and no real attempts to delay the proceedings by Republicans.

2) No the 25th was not formally inacted, but YES many cabinet members and others have said they are acting under a "defacto-25th amendment". There are many indications that the military and others including cabinet members have stopped listening to Trump and do everything they can to avoid any interaction with Trump. Apparently Cipollone was recommending that behavior for some time.

3) Yes Trump was impeached in the fastest process ever seen. How many people before the self-coup attempt, or at the time that the insurrection was still happening would have believed that:
4) Trump has not been tried and I think that it makes sense that the earliest a trial could probably start is after January 20th, but at the same time, it might make sense that the trial not start for another three months. By that time support for Trump may be so low that Republican Senators might face little political risk if they vote to convict.

Ultimately, a trial in the Senate doesn't really matter, and all of this is more likely resolved in the courts, or at least first in the courts and then in the Senate. The Senate already knows the truth and has the votes if they all voted by conscious, but the issue is getting it done without putting national security at risk, or risking losing too many Republican supporters. Therefore delay is the most likely choice for Republican Senators.

Also, a trial in the Senate doesn't really matter because there is also the lower bar of the 14th amendment section 3, which only requires a simple majority vote in the House and Senate. That could be achieved with zero support from Republicans.

The rest of the predictions regarding Giuliani, Stone, Trump family members and others, I think it is too early to say but we can say that things don't look good for them. I guess we will find out soon.

https://daysuntiltrumpisgone.com/
Title: Re: A Sad Day For America
Post by: Read the Footnotes on January 18, 2021, 07:58:18 AM
Cubsfan,
Your understanding of the middle eastern politics seem to be very narrow.
This was great. Now do the USA.