Author Topic: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites  (Read 2213 times)

LC

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2020, 06:30:04 AM »
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Academia is one of the unique places where discrimination and harmful ideologies are not only rampant, but encouraged and widely accepted. And when you look at the institutional breakdowns, along party lines....its not 90% Republican/conservatives....

Perhaps it is more meritocratic than you imagine  ;D
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cubsfan

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2020, 07:16:51 AM »

So when it comes to the above topic....who cares if an overqualified candidate gets squeezed out? The objective is to get under-qualified candidates in! Then we can use them as tokens of accomplishment to showcase the success of our platform!

The folks who may have it the worst within the Asian sub groups, I am beginning to see, are possibly Indians.

Everyone should be treated as equal and all discrimination should be rebuked. Academia is one of the unique places where discrimination and harmful ideologies are not only rampant, but encouraged and widely accepted.

The quickest way to earn your stripes in America has always been to bust your ass and work hard. Its sad when we see policies that punish that or promote the opposite.

+1 - it's so, so obvious. Asians/Indians don't whine and complain like the BLM/LGBTQ crowd.

rkbabang

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2020, 08:14:30 AM »
There was once a guy liberals liked who said he dreamed of a society where you were judged by the content of your character not by the color of your skin.  Unfortunately the leftists of today think that is racist.  A colorblind society is no longer a liberal goal.  A society where being 1/1024th of a minority group gives you bragging rights and advantages over others is what's considered social justice and is what they are after.  The left's views on race today is as sick and twisted as their economic views.  The left is a lost cause.

doc75

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2020, 10:19:43 AM »
There was once a guy liberals liked who said he dreamed of a society where you were judged by the content of your character not by the color of your skin.  Unfortunately the leftists of today think that is racist. A colorblind society is no longer a liberal goal.  A society where being 1/1024th of a minority group gives you bragging rights and advantages over others is what's considered social justice and is what they are after.  The left's views on race today is as sick and twisted as their economic views.  The left is a lost cause.

With respect I think this is a lazy analysis and overly general.  There are plenty of liberal-leaning people that hold a colorblind society as a goal, but have a different view than you on how to get to there from here.   Some folks believe in a "sink or swim" paradigm, and others feel this is an unfair position to take after holding someone's head underwater, so they want to offer support (ranging from flutterboard to yacht, apparently). 

Consider the similar issue of gender diversity in academics.  Let's simplify by pretending it's 1999 and there are 2 genders.   

There's a crazy male/female imbalance in many STEM areas.  There are surely many reasons for this, but I think you'd have to contort yourself not to admit that some amount of lingering bias in the system (after centuries of overt bias) is playing a role. 

So we have a complex machine that is producing output that most folks agree is undesirable. Nobody knows exactly how the machine works, but a bunch of well-meaning people really want to alter the output.

Unfortunately, in my view, the conversation now gets hijacked by people who ascribe to the motto that doing something is always better than doing nothing, which in many cases just isn't true.   The machine is complicated.  Turning dials closer to the input is difficult and requires great patience, as these changes take a long time to percolate.  So instead people focus on tweaking the machine closer to the output.  For example, with regards to academic hiring, this often results in murky rules that are either so broad as to be useless or so specific that they are grossly unfair to male candidates.

I'm personally of a mixed mind on this issue.  The ingrained gender bias is not apparent if I just go about my day, yet at the same time it's obvious if I pay attention.  I want things to be different.  However, it kills me to see better qualified candidates lose out because of social engineering.    Smart colleagues of mine tell me that the system just needs a big push toward another equilibrium -- that the  unfairness to some candidates in the short-term is unfortunate but necessary collateral damage along the way.

This message is a bit meandering.  If you're still with me, a summary:  Painting important issues in stark "Right" vs "Left" language isn't helpful.  I think modern media is amplifying fringe opinion and we're losing sight of the fact that there are a lot of good people out there who share many common goals but have different views on how to reach them.  For my kids' sake I hope the trend toward divisiveness and tribalism begins to reverse sometime in the next decade. 



aryadhana

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2020, 10:56:21 AM »
I dunno about all this gender oppression stuff.  The preeminent lady physicist to date was a Jew in Germany in the 1930s and the only person to win two real Nobel prizes was a Slavic woman born in the 19th century.  Women used to make more substantive contributions at the highest levels of math and science a century ago than they do today, and I think you can actually infer a lot about the proclivities and idiosyncrasies of a population by looking at the very right end of the curve. 

doc75

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2020, 11:02:29 AM »
I dunno about all this gender oppression stuff.  The preeminent lady physicist to date was a Jew in Germany in the 1930s and the only person to win two real Nobel prizes was a Slavic woman born in the 19th century.  Women used to make more substantive contributions at the highest levels of math and science a century ago than they do today, and I think you can actually infer a lot about the proclivities and idiosyncrasies of a population by looking at the very right end of the curve.

I very much doubt this is true.   I'm more familiar with math than science.   Examples?

Also:  John Bardeen and Frederick Sanger each won two Nobel prizes, physics and chemistry,  respectively.


aryadhana

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2020, 11:32:20 AM »
Sorry, I meant first, not only, person to win two real Nobels.

I was thinking Marie Curie and Emmy Noether, and I can't think of anyone today nearly as eminent relative to the top as those two were in their time.  Jennifer Doudna is a more recent name that comes to mind, and of course Maryam Mirzakhani.  I guess it's hard to compare since the magnitude of discovery has fallen across the board (no man alive is a Planck, Einstein, or even close). 

Unfortunately I at least intuitively feel quite strongly about this though I'll gladly admit evidence is a little sparse.  For what it's worth, you see the same thing with blacks as well.  Stuyvesant used to have more blacks in the 1970s than it does today.  I'm pretty sure the man who coded the first UNIX shell was black.  Thomas Jefferson is said to have thought quite highly of the amateur astronomer born a slave, Ben Banneker (and they were all amateurs in some manner, back then).  No doubt there are at least a handful more examples from the past I am forgetting.  Today -- without the impediments of literal slavery or segregation and despite enormous subsidy and funding -- I can't really think of anything comparable.  Again, I might be reasoning a little too much from the very right end of the curve which I think is harder for society to game, but I bet you'll see the same if you look at black enrollment at specialized high schools over time. 

It really is quite apart from the story of European Jews who very quickly ascended from superstitious folk segregated in their ghettoes to the very top of French and German science after emancipation.

LC

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2020, 11:35:05 AM »
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I guess it's hard to compare since the magnitude of discovery has fallen across the board (no man alive is a Planck, Einstein, or even close).

Exactly.

I'd wager most Americans can't name a current contributing physicist, but they know who Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson are.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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aryadhana

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2020, 11:55:35 AM »
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I guess it's hard to compare since the magnitude of discovery has fallen across the board (no man alive is a Planck, Einstein, or even close).

Exactly.

I'd wager most Americans can't name a current contributing physicist, but they know who Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson are.

To be honest it's not obvious to me there has been much contribution to begin with.  I have a lay interest in this stuff and can immediately appreciate the beauty and elegance of prewar science, whereas I have no idea what it would mean if theories of leading physicists today turn out to be true or false, or what true and false even mean.  And that's not just a question of things getting more specialized (a common retort).  People loved science when they could appreciate its meaning, and that hasn't really been the case since the Apollo program (and that was all old science). 

Commercial science is probably a more apt place to look for substantive contribution. 

LC

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Re: Affirmative actions at elite STEM institutions screws asians not whites
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2020, 11:59:00 AM »
Discovery of the Higgs Boson was quite important and was discovered at CERN, which is publicly funded primarily by EU states.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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