Author Topic: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest  (Read 20298 times)

Cigarbutt

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #250 on: December 18, 2019, 12:27:04 PM »
^I value highly personal responsibility but your arguments could be used to build a case.

Like you alluded to before, given the relatively activist propensity in some states against access to abortion, one would expect corresponding support for family-friendly or baby-friendly policies. However, the real outcome tends to be the opposite. Alabama and states with similar policies towards abortion tend to also have the least family- or baby-friendly policies. How can one reconcile that with the stated objective?
https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-to-have-a-baby/6513/

I hear Paul saying that lives need to be saved...but at what cost (human or otherwise)?


LC

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #251 on: December 18, 2019, 01:44:18 PM »
Heh, I also value personal responsibility, after all what else can we do in this crazy world but take responsibility for ourselves and our actions? But this is a lesson that takes decades to learn, and we have the bias of (I assume) relatively comfortable lives. Not everyone has such luxuries and even if they did, at the age of 15 how could we expect them to?

So to continue my streak of disagreement (after all what is the point of discussion otherwise...)

My problem with the "Lives must be saved" argument is that it is in my estimation full of unproven assumptions and contradictions:

-assumes a fetus is a life at a given point in the pregnancy

-assumes a third party has the authority to make such claims

-forces the mother to put her life in jeopardy to do so

-forces potential long-term (generational) economic ruin on the mother, her child, and other associated parties

-ignores all second- and third- order effects (e.g. imagine a 15 year old woman who aborts her fetus, goes on to become an incredible success, has four children who are well loved and cared for, all of whom go on an contribute exponentially to society, etc....as opposed to living in poverty and regret with her child at 15, etc.)

So ultimately, there are very practical reasons for abortions. And empirically we see this to be true: this is why abortions have been performed for over thousands of years and in almost every (if not every) human civilization which has been studied, and will continue to do so regardless of legislation.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 02:10:30 PM by LC »
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Spekulatius

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #252 on: December 18, 2019, 06:16:50 PM »
Just sponsor trips to neighboring states where absorption is legal. Problem solved.
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Gregmal

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #253 on: December 18, 2019, 06:31:40 PM »
Abortion is a funny thing. Fundamentally I think its reprehensible. Its arrogant, and its selfish. But, when you look at the numbers, the majority of abortions, strictly on a statistical basis involve bringing more people into the world that ultimately turn out to be people we dont need more of. Every day we are reminded of this. Someone going for an abortion is more than likely irresponsible. Theyre also most likely going to be a deadbeat parent. They also likely dont have the means to provide for their offspring. They are just losers.

At the core, I still say I am against abortions. Its not fair the the future child. But the practical argument is its not fair to society so let the idiots off themselves or their future offspring. Its a problems when, spin a wheel and pick a crime committed by a minor, and I can more often than not, guess what child looks like, and what type of home they come from. We need less of those. The Tessa Majors murder...3 Jewish kids wearing sweater vests, moccasins, and yarmulkes, from a $350K home with a mom and a dad right?

Liberalism has eroded family values. Its all an equation and the ugliness of the sausage is just because the ingredients continue to get worse. I say, less ingredients!

Parsad

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #254 on: December 18, 2019, 07:09:46 PM »
Abortion is a funny thing. Fundamentally I think its reprehensible. Its arrogant, and its selfish. But, when you look at the numbers, the majority of abortions, strictly on a statistical basis involve bringing more people into the world that ultimately turn out to be people we dont need more of. Every day we are reminded of this. Someone going for an abortion is more than likely irresponsible. Theyre also most likely going to be a deadbeat parent. They also likely dont have the means to provide for their offspring. They are just losers.

At the core, I still say I am against abortions. Its not fair the the future child. But the practical argument is its not fair to society so let the idiots off themselves or their future offspring. Its a problems when, spin a wheel and pick a crime committed by a minor, and I can more often than not, guess what child looks like, and what type of home they come from. We need less of those. The Tessa Majors murder...3 Jewish kids wearing sweater vests, moccasins, and yarmulkes, from a $350K home with a mom and a dad right?

Liberalism has eroded family values. Its all an equation and the ugliness of the sausage is just because the ingredients continue to get worse. I say, less ingredients!

So essentially you are saying that women are irresponsible, since men cannot get pregnant.  If men could, God the number of abortions would probably increase 100 fold.  So the males that end up impregnating the loser females who get pregnant, are not culpable in this whole thing.  And they are generally minority, impoverished, women that society doesn't need more of. 

Greg, I would imagine that if you and I simply sat together and watched a football or hockey game, we probably would get along great.  But reading what you write in a sterile environment like this disgusts me.  Your comments seems extremely insensitive and judgmental.  Cheers!
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Gregmal

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #255 on: December 18, 2019, 07:24:42 PM »
What I am saying is that irresponsible people are doing the world no favors. The abortion issue is tricky because I do think every child deserves a voice and a chance. I also do think, as you correctly point out, that the skew of blame perhaps unfairly hones in on women, when in reality it isn't entirely that clear. But at the same time, women chose their mating partners(or at least should), they consent to certain actions, and proceed to make decisions thereafter. There are no shortage of irresponsible men. Probably many more than the number of women. Buts thats a different issue than abortion. Unfortunately, our great society that seems to have no problem imposing restrictions and rules on every area of our lives, feels no need to bind men to the responsibility of raising their children...

I am judgmental; it is what it is. Ive gotten to a fairly decent place in my life, on my owns terms, making judgment calls. I think everyone deserves to be free and live their lives however they want. The pursuit of happiness. And at the same time I am so sick and tired of seeing low life scoundrels rape our country and brutalize innocent people who are just living their lives. Most of these people fit a certain pattern. If it was an investing theme, it's one I would either avoid or short. However when it comes to life, we are somehow discouraged from looking at things with such honest vitriol. That doesnt make sense to me.

Parsad

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #256 on: December 18, 2019, 07:49:10 PM »
What I am saying is that irresponsible people are doing the world no favors. The abortion issue is tricky because I do think every child deserves a voice and a chance. I also do think, as you correctly point out, that the skew of blame perhaps unfairly hones in on women, when in reality it isn't entirely that clear. But at the same time, women chose their mating partners(or at least should), they consent to certain actions, and proceed to make decisions thereafter. There are no shortage of irresponsible men. Probably many more than the number of women. Buts thats a different issue than abortion. Unfortunately, our great society that seems to have no problem imposing restrictions and rules on every area of our lives, feels no need to bind men to the responsibility of raising their children...

I am judgmental; it is what it is. Ive gotten to a fairly decent place in my life, on my owns terms, making judgment calls. I think everyone deserves to be free and live their lives however they want. The pursuit of happiness. And at the same time I am so sick and tired of seeing low life scoundrels rape our country and brutalize innocent people who are just living their lives. Most of these people fit a certain pattern. If it was an investing theme, it's one I would either avoid or short. However when it comes to life, we are somehow discouraged from looking at things with such honest vitriol. That doesnt make sense to me.

Personally, I wish the need for abortion didn't exist.  If everyone was equally morally culpable and equally able to get pregnant, then I would have less of a problem with those that want to see the elimination of abortion.  The problem is that reality says that generally poor women with limited opportunities often have unplanned pregnancies, while their respective partners flee the scene and provide no support.  You end up creating a vicious cycle where these young boys and girls grow up in poverty, limited opportunity, and also end up pregnant at an early age or get someone pregnant at an early age.  These "losers" are a product of society...not the scoundrels generally raping the country and brutalizing innocent people.  There are bad seeds in every apple, and apples with seeds in every community.  Two different things.  Cheers!
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Cigarbutt

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #257 on: December 18, 2019, 08:04:30 PM »
Abortion is a funny thing. Fundamentally I think its reprehensible. Its arrogant, and its selfish. But, when you look at the numbers, the majority of abortions, strictly on a statistical basis involve bringing more people into the world that ultimately turn out to be people we dont need more of. Every day we are reminded of this. Someone going for an abortion is more than likely irresponsible. Theyre also most likely going to be a deadbeat parent. They also likely dont have the means to provide for their offspring. They are just losers.

At the core, I still say I am against abortions. Its not fair the the future child. But the practical argument is its not fair to society so let the idiots off themselves or their future offspring. Its a problems when, spin a wheel and pick a crime committed by a minor, and I can more often than not, guess what child looks like, and what type of home they come from. We need less of those. The Tessa Majors murder...3 Jewish kids wearing sweater vests, moccasins, and yarmulkes, from a $350K home with a mom and a dad right?

Liberalism has eroded family values. Its all an equation and the ugliness of the sausage is just because the ingredients continue to get worse. I say, less ingredients!
Are you suggesting some kind of eugenic control?

In another life, especially during training, I was exposed to newborns suffering from a withdrawal syndrome (I'm sure you can figure out what this means). These babies are terribly sick, are simply inconsolable and already live with a checkered past (and are destined for a very uncertain future). This exposure forced me to do some thinking. Interestingly, today in my jurisdiction, a group announced recommendations to budget for selective measures that would involve targeting vulnerable mothers (compulsory declaration upon pregnancy, using specific criteria) for punctual social service involvement during the pregnancy, for regular involvement during the early life of the newborn and to facilitate integration into subsidized day care as early as possible. I support those measures. Wouldn't you? But I can't help thinking about how these poor outcomes could be avoided, in a preventive way. I can think of a few potential solutions that could be discussed but getting rid of these people is not one of them.

Gregmal

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #258 on: December 18, 2019, 08:26:23 PM »
Abortion is a funny thing. Fundamentally I think its reprehensible. Its arrogant, and its selfish. But, when you look at the numbers, the majority of abortions, strictly on a statistical basis involve bringing more people into the world that ultimately turn out to be people we dont need more of. Every day we are reminded of this. Someone going for an abortion is more than likely irresponsible. Theyre also most likely going to be a deadbeat parent. They also likely dont have the means to provide for their offspring. They are just losers.

At the core, I still say I am against abortions. Its not fair the the future child. But the practical argument is its not fair to society so let the idiots off themselves or their future offspring. Its a problems when, spin a wheel and pick a crime committed by a minor, and I can more often than not, guess what child looks like, and what type of home they come from. We need less of those. The Tessa Majors murder...3 Jewish kids wearing sweater vests, moccasins, and yarmulkes, from a $350K home with a mom and a dad right?

Liberalism has eroded family values. Its all an equation and the ugliness of the sausage is just because the ingredients continue to get worse. I say, less ingredients!
Are you suggesting some kind of eugenic control?

In another life, especially during training, I was exposed to newborns suffering from a withdrawal syndrome (I'm sure you can figure out what this means). These babies are terribly sick, are simply inconsolable and already live with a checkered past (and are destined for a very uncertain future). This exposure forced me to do some thinking. Interestingly, today in my jurisdiction, a group announced recommendations to budget for selective measures that would involve targeting vulnerable mothers (compulsory declaration upon pregnancy, using specific criteria) for punctual social service involvement during the pregnancy, for regular involvement during the early life of the newborn and to facilitate integration into subsidized day care as early as possible. I support those measures. Wouldn't you? But I can't help thinking about how these poor outcomes could be avoided, in a preventive way. I can think of a few potential solutions that could be discussed but getting rid of these people is not one of them.

What I am saying is that Ive largely been a pro life advocate my entire life. And the debate is almost always polarizing and passionate on both ends. But at the same time, as I get older, and at least I think wiser, its impossible not to notice whats going on in the world. Another week goes by and another killing of young girl by a bunch of savage animals. Its everywhere. People cant take the subways without being slashed by loitering teen gangbangers. Women are being assaulted in broad daylight walking around in Queens. These people, in these areas, make up a large population of the abortion crowd, demographically speaking. So am I really making a wise decision, supporting a policy, thats end result, is laying the foundation for more of these types of people? Genetically hardwired to be prone to certain behaviors or tendencies? Guaranteed to be raised in an environment that harbors and condones these types of behaviors? So on the surface, no. Not a good idea. And philosophically, if this is what they want to do...I guess let them. Especially if the benefit is a net positive.

stahleyp

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Re: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest
« Reply #259 on: December 19, 2019, 06:50:20 AM »
Human rights either exist or they don't. They shouldn't be determined based on arbitrary rules like location or age. Anything less than that is dehumanizing the person (just a lump of cells or just a fetus). It's the same approach Trump uses to dehumanize people crossing the border (they're rapists and criminals).

A fetus is a human as is a baby or teenager or adult. It's just a human in a different stage of life. Now, we can argue that human rights don't really exist and that each individual's rights are based only in what a government allows or doesn't allow... in which case lc shouldn't mind what's happening with immigrants crossing the border or religious minorities in China. It's not right to adjust who gets rights and who doesn't based on catchy slogans like "my body, my choice." If that's the case, we can say it's China's country, and their choice on what to do with their people too then.

If the argument that abortion is good since it reduces crime, I can't argue with that. I would say a better route (if the goal is to reduce crime) would be to terminate first time offenders. Rarely is a murder someone's first crime. This is more of a surgical approach (take out the offenders) than the shotgun (terminating people who haven't done anything).

I would be all for a law that if a man gets a women pregnant, that she would have the ability to "abort" him if he doesn't support her or the baby (within reason). Men need to step up and take responsibility. If they don't, then they're not men and, we as a society, need people who will take responsibility. This isn't a violation of human rights if he knows the rules before the game is played. ;)

If one wants the ability to abort, then they should also be okay with the man not paying child support. Her body (though I really don't understand the argument that it's her body but that is different conversation), her choice. His paycheck, his choice. That seems fair. Both parties need to be held accountable.


Paul