Author Topic: Another win for unabated capitalism  (Read 3288 times)

NewbieD

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2019, 05:52:43 AM »
Reading this thread makes me think an easy way to get rich must be to become a doctor here in Scandinavia, prescribe a bit of the medication in question to your friend, let him buy it for a few $ and travel to the us to sell on the black market..

It might not be so scalable, since these drug co's prices probably makes even the state-run apparatus here pretty cost conscious. But it could probably work for a while.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 05:54:26 AM by NewbieD »


Castanza

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2019, 05:56:10 AM »


A lot of drug cost in the us can be contributed directly to R&D. America is unequivocally a testing ground for new drugs. This premium is passed on to citizens here. It's not passed on to citizens in say the UK because their government has put caps on prices (in general terms).

I don't think the best action forward would be for the US to adopt said caps. They are not a permanent solution to the issue. Eventually the UK will be forced to renegotiate their terms and ultimately prices will rise.

wachtwoord

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2019, 05:58:01 AM »
"The problem here is not capitalism, as any libertarian would tell you, but the rather absurd notion of patents. Discontinue patent protection (and copyright too please!) and the world will be a much better place."

Right... So who would invest $10's to $100's of millions upfront to find a cure and get approval with all associated risk of failure involved and get zero return over "x" predetermined years?

And even if there was no patent law, then the recipe never gets disclosed. The competitor has to redo the entire research process to find the cure with possibility of never finding it.


Do you have any proof to backup your claims? Extraordinary claims (no-one will invest to develop the drugs OMG OmG OMG) needs extraordinary evidence. I'm assuming at least the same as today but likely more as the opportunity for profit is far larger due to less regulation and government requirements and all wasted money on patent trolling and litigation as well as opportunities not pursued due to fear (legitimate or not) of treading on someone else's IP are avoided.

See I don't have any proof either, but than again I'm arguing for the absence of something while you are arguing for the existance of something (I see as societally detrimental).
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master"

Castanza

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2019, 06:28:14 AM »
"The problem here is not capitalism, as any libertarian would tell you, but the rather absurd notion of patents. Discontinue patent protection (and copyright too please!) and the world will be a much better place."

Right... So who would invest $10's to $100's of millions upfront to find a cure and get approval with all associated risk of failure involved and get zero return over "x" predetermined years?

And even if there was no patent law, then the recipe never gets disclosed. The competitor has to redo the entire research process to find the cure with possibility of never finding it.


Do you have any proof to backup your claims? Extraordinary claims (no-one will invest to develop the drugs OMG OmG OMG) needs extraordinary evidence. I'm assuming at least the same as today but likely more as the opportunity for profit is far larger due to less regulation and government requirements and all wasted money on patent trolling and litigation as well as opportunities not pursued due to fear (legitimate or not) of treading on someone else's IP are avoided.

See I don't have any proof either, but than again I'm arguing for the absence of something while you are arguing for the existance of something (I see as societally detrimental).

Laissez faire has been proven to work time and time again as the best way to produce innovation and affordable prices across all industries. The issue here is absolutely IPs and collusion between big government and big pharma. Basically government mandated monopolies. remove regulation, remove entry into the market etc. If someone can do it cheaper they will.

rkbabang

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2019, 06:44:53 AM »
The problem here is not capitalism, as any libertarian would tell you, but the rather absurd notion of patents. Discontinue patent protection (and copyright too please!) and the world will be a much better place.

Exactly.  And to the people who say no one is going to spend Billions to bring a drug to market without patents, the FDA is the main reason it costs Billions to bring a drug to market.  Where in the constitution does it give the federal government the power to regulate food and drugs?   Hmm, no, I can't find it either.


rukawa

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2019, 08:30:55 AM »
The whole story of healthcare from beginning to end is a story of extreme stupidity and market failure. Humans are insane when it comes to healthcare. Accept it. Grafting government or markets onto this solves nothing. Healthcare without government is just a pure story of charlatans peddling idiotic ideas. We know what it looks like because we lived through it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_medicine

and we are STILL living through it:
https://respectfulinsolence.com/2013/10/25/chairman-mao-inventor-of-traditional-chinese-medicine/

I basically view the FDA as doing a lot more good than harm. In fact I regard almost any system that prevents humans from consuming healthcare as probably doing more good than harm e.g. copays and rationing. Our healthcare today is light years beyond patent cures and folk medicine but its still filled with an enormous amount of bullshit that has no rational basis.

The libertarian argument is that markets will somehow solve these problems. I just regard this as delusional. Where have markets solved these problems? Even conventional medicine I regard is filled with tremendous amounts of complete nonsense. Government has in many cases made things much much much worse. For instance, Psychiatric medications are quackery and without tremendous government funding and advocacy would not have the impact they have had which is mostly negative. Government has also funded huge bureaucracies like bioethics which has retarded research and vastly increased its cost by orders of magnitude with zero benefits.

And finally the science is just fucking awful. Scientists are fucking awful. All of it is junk. Scientists are careless, sloppy in their arguments, and whole fields are a ridiculous mess. Statistics everywhere its used, is used badly. The foundations of scientific reasoning today are a mess. And I regard this as purely due to the impact that government funding has had on science.

So government or markets...all I see is failure.

rkbabang

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 09:08:08 AM »
I basically view the FDA as doing a lot more good than harm.


Sorry, but the FDA food pyramid alone has killed more people earlier than they otherwise would have lived for their time than all of the snake-oil and quackery in all of human history put together.  It is the largest example of medical quackery in the 20th century.  Driven entirely by politics and money, rather than science.  Eat mostly breads and cereals, use lots of high omega 6 oils, and replace butter and lard with transfats.  Don't eat meat or eggs. Replace avocados with frosted flakes. Great idea.  Before the 1980s type I diabetes was called child onset diabetes, because type II diabetes was unheard of in children.  Now type II diabetes is more common in children than type I and there are grossly obese kids everywhere you look. 


Quote
And finally the science is just fucking awful. Scientists are fucking awful. All of it is junk. Scientists are careless, sloppy in their arguments, and whole fields are a ridiculous mess. Statistics everywhere its used, is used badly. The foundations of scientific reasoning today are a mess. And I regard this as purely due to the impact that government funding has had on science.

So government or markets...all I see is failure.

And yet we all live longer healthier lives than people did 100 years ago. Well "all" until this current generation which grew up with parents who believed in the food pyramid anyway.  We will likely see a dip in life expectancy until this government created fat-bad, grains-good, nonsense works its way out of the brains of the population.

wachtwoord

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2019, 01:40:49 PM »
+1 rkabang . People say its hard to pick free market (distributed) or government (centralized) but it really isn't if you have the long term in mind. Kind of like value investing ;)
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meiroy

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2019, 03:51:38 AM »

LC, I think "unabated" is a wrong choice of words here.  Perhaps more appropriate would be crony/corrupt.  The system has been corrupted on many levels. That's why people like Ocasio Cortez win.

https://youtu.be/MHD-M1AG7Hs

I'm not saying everything she is claiming is wholly correct but it is indeed mostly correct.  She will get a ton of points for that.



Read the Footnotes

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Re: Another win for unabated capitalism
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2019, 08:48:46 AM »


Guess which industries are heavily subsidized and which are not. Shrink government and solve problems.

The issue is not capitalism. It's government involvement in capitalism.

This graph is really interesting to look at, but to me the most noteworthy elements are the sharply descending lines that show how much we have all benefitted from the progress of technology. Take the falling cost of televisions shown above and think about that for a moment. I don't know the specifics of the BLS methodology for this series (the only citation is that its from BLS), but the most challenging aspect of these data series is to account for the change in quality over time. So those very cheap televisions that are available to us today are likely much better in many ways than the televisions of 20 years ago, especially if you value the decrease in size and weight.

Technology has contributed heavily to decreasing the cost o of the descending price series (TVs, toys, software, wireless), but it likely CONTRIBUTED to the increase in education and healthcare costs which are much more technology intensive than they were twenty years ago.

The point of these discussion is usually to try to say that healthcare or education are unfairly taking advantage of demand inelasticity to inflate prices, which results in a poor deal for consumers. Undoubtedly there is some truth in that explanation. Undoubtedly government regulation and subsidy contribute to increasing the demand for education and healthcare and limiting the supply through regulation which combine to increase prices. But there are other issues such as the changes in the quality of education or healthcare, the costs of the inputs, the quantity of inputs and changes in the money supply which effect a price series. In fact, the price surveys such as this are often used as further data points to examine estimates of the money supply and its effects on prices, which can never truly be known, but only estimated. To evaluate the efficacy and value of the healthcare system is very difficult, and a simple price series should at most be one tiny data point among thousands.

There is an often repeated saying that may have little real value that you should expect real dollar equity returns of around 6-7% or nominal returns of 10-11%. The equivalent rule of thumb is to expect 3% inflation. If we had had 3% inflation over the past twenty years, we would expect prices to have moved even higher than this series tells us. On the one hand the government is known to have been managing the way CPI is calculated toward their own benefit and the were certainly increasing the money supply. On the other hand, technology including the creation of cheap energy from non-traditional oil and gas exploration has made a significant impact on the price series.

On the one hand the progress of technology is causing a lot of social disruption and frictional unemployment. On the other hand we have all benefitted enormously. Most of us would probably better off reflecting on how much things have changed for the better thanks to the progress of technology. This is one of the reasons that nostalgia is misspent. There are so many ways in which things have never been as great as they are now.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 11:50:21 AM by Read the Footnotes »