Author Topic: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market  (Read 2478 times)

RuleNumberOne

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2020, 08:13:31 PM »
The cost of "college education" is not going to get fixed. Universities maintain a 1:1 ratio for students:staff. I think the teaching staff are a small minority (something like 10%) of the university employees. Why do you need that many non-teaching employees and so many useless majors?

The average pension for a U. of California employee is $88,000 per year.

If you consider that you might have one pensioner per active student, plus one university employee per active student, you can see why college costs can never come down.

University employees are unionized and no politician wants to alienate the unions.

I think Bernie has a good chance of winning because he is clever enough to never reveal how he intends to pay for his promises. In 2016, his promised expenditures were 3-5x greater than his tax revenues.

Every college student or person with student debt or parent whose child may be going soon to college would turn out to vote for Bernie if he promises to cancel student debt and make college free.

Bernie never bothered giving detailed plans in 2016. When taxpayers are forced to pay $200k for partying teenagers majoring in useless stuff, the nation's competitiveness goes down.

I've got some bad news...

The country is ALREADY paying for $200k degrees in useless nonsense.

How is that?  There is something called IBR (Income Based Repayment).  If you make a certain amount of income, you can get on it.  Most people qualify for it.  Once you are on it, you pay a percentage of your income, between 0 and 20%?  After 20 years, if you stay in the program, and if you have not paid off your student loan, it is discharged.

A huge percentage of people on IBR pay little or nothing.

So a large percentage of student loan debt is never going to get repaid, one way or the other.  There are two problems with that:

A). Students buried under hopeless debt have it for 20+ years.  Makes family formation, retirement savings, and other things much more difficult.  If they have a "bum degree", let them bankrupt out after a shorter period of time? 

B). The skools laugh all the way to the bank.  They get their money up front, and have no vested interest in the financial or professional outcomes of their students.  Skools have to take some responsibility and can't be selling useless pieces of paper.  They are also going to have to lower price, increase quality and WORK a lot harder.  When I was in skool, it was SHOCKING how lazy some of professors were.  Maybe increase their workweek from 12 hours to 50?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 08:22:14 PM by RuleNumberOne »


cubsfan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2020, 05:30:14 AM »
The cost of "college education" is not going to get fixed. Universities maintain a 1:1 ratio for students:staff. I think the teaching staff are a small minority (something like 10%) of the university employees. Why do you need that many non-teaching employees and so many useless majors?

The average pension for a U. of California employee is $88,000 per year.

If you consider that you might have one pensioner per active student, plus one university employee per active student, you can see why college costs can never come down.

University employees are unionized and no politician wants to alienate the unions.


You pretty much nailed it. There is so much bloat in these universities with useless administration staffs. The costs have gone nuts.
There is no incentive to control costs, only expand their empires.

These guys need accountability.  If you have strict entrance tests, like ACT/SAT's , you ought to have strict exit tests to expose those
universities that offer no learning value.

cherzeca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2641
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2020, 08:26:39 AM »
saw a stat that there are twice the number of administrative staff as faculty in the U of California college system. absurd.

LC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4016
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2020, 08:41:36 AM »
The cost of "college education" is not going to get fixed. Universities maintain a 1:1 ratio for students:staff. I think the teaching staff are a small minority (something like 10%) of the university employees. Why do you need that many non-teaching employees and so many useless majors?

The average pension for a U. of California employee is $88,000 per year.

If you consider that you might have one pensioner per active student, plus one university employee per active student, you can see why college costs can never come down.

University employees are unionized and no politician wants to alienate the unions.

It's incredible that on a value investing website, factual evidence is treated to casually.

According to the National Center for Education Statistics, the national average for college student-to-faculty ratios is 18:1.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
brk.b | irm | mo | nlsn | pm | t | v

RuleNumberOne

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2020, 09:14:53 AM »
LC, I think you missed this in my post in the heat of the moment. I said the teaching staff are a small minority (like 10%) of the total university employee count.

The link below from the U. of California website clearly shows the faculty are just one-tenth of the employee count at the U. of California.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/infocenter/uc-employee-headcount

If you add up the faculty, it comes to 23k while the total university employee count is 236k.

The average pension for a UC employee is $88k. There are just 280k students enrolled. Universities need to get more efficient. Just shut down the useless majors.

The cost of "college education" is not going to get fixed. Universities maintain a 1:1 ratio for students:staff. I think the teaching staff are a small minority (something like 10%) of the university employees. Why do you need that many non-teaching employees and so many useless majors?

The average pension for a U. of California employee is $88,000 per year.

If you consider that you might have one pensioner per active student, plus one university employee per active student, you can see why college costs can never come down.

University employees are unionized and no politician wants to alienate the unions.

It's incredible that on a value investing website, factual evidence is treated to casually.

According to the National Center for Education Statistics, the national average for college student-to-faculty ratios is 18:1.

LC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4016
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2020, 09:49:01 AM »
I think my average of 18:1 includes all college faculty, not just teachers. I doubt there is a single college with a 1:1 student:staff ratio (maybe some tiny lib arts college in the middle of nowhere)

But I completely agree with the spirit of your responses in terms of efficiency. Too many middle managers, too little actual academic staff.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
brk.b | irm | mo | nlsn | pm | t | v

boilermaker75

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1208
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2020, 10:24:18 AM »
Just a few quick comments. You are putting many employees in the administration category who are not administrators but aid in the educational mission of the UC system. For instance, the 25,972 teaching assistants. Many of these do direct teaching. For a freshman general chemistry class at Cal you might have 520 students in the class. This would consist of three hours of lecture per week, which might be two sections with a faculty member would teach in a 260-seat lecture hall. Then there would be a three-hour laboratory per week. This would be a laboratory classroom that might accommodate 26 students. You would have 20 of these sections per week and a teaching assistant would teach two of these sections.

There are 6,491 postdoctoral scholars and 6,034 medical interns/residents. In a sense these are students getting more experience/training but not with an end degree as the goal. Also, the funding for the postdoctoral scholars does not come from the UC system. This funding would come from the contracts and grants of faculty members who hire these postdocs. The funding for the interns and residents would come from patient fees.

I donít disagree there has been growth in number of administrators. Some of this is due to increased federal regulations. To deal with FERPA, the American Disabilities Act, etc. requires increased administration. For 20 years I never knew that students in my class may have learning disabilities. Today about 4% of my students have accommodations. This means special situations for testing that is done at other locations/times than the exams I give my class. It takes staff to administer all these individual tests.

LC, I think you missed this in my post in the heat of the moment. I said the teaching staff are a small minority (like 10%) of the total university employee count.

The link below from the U. of California website clearly shows the faculty are just one-tenth of the employee count at the U. of California.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/infocenter/uc-employee-headcount

If you add up the faculty, it comes to 23k while the total university employee count is 236k.

The average pension for a UC employee is $88k. There are just 280k students enrolled. Universities need to get more efficient. Just shut down the useless majors.

The cost of "college education" is not going to get fixed. Universities maintain a 1:1 ratio for students:staff. I think the teaching staff are a small minority (something like 10%) of the university employees. Why do you need that many non-teaching employees and so many useless majors?

The average pension for a U. of California employee is $88,000 per year.

If you consider that you might have one pensioner per active student, plus one university employee per active student, you can see why college costs can never come down.

University employees are unionized and no politician wants to alienate the unions.

It's incredible that on a value investing website, factual evidence is treated to casually.

According to the National Center for Education Statistics, the national average for college student-to-faculty ratios is 18:1.

Gregmal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2947
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2020, 10:34:44 AM »
He s a novel idea. Privatize education. Make them all for profit. And get the government out of lending. Then they'll have to compete. And competition breeds success. Why pay $35K a year? Because x% of students get in, and out of those, x% graduate, and of those x% get jobs inside of 6 months from graduation in a field related to their studies making $xx,000 on average. On average, student loans are repaid in x years after graduating". Of course, the consumer would need to conduct their own due diligence with respect to the reliability of the "marketing material" but the universities would also then have to underwrite much of their loan book... you'd at least have accountability somewhere.

Right now....Sally studies sea shells at Wesleyan paying $55k a year. Whats the graduation rate for those applicants? dunno. Whats the employment figures? Dunno. How much does she make? dunno. Does she ever repay her loans? dunno

The problem with higher education is that its become viewed as a rite of passage rather than a life decision with financial consequences.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 10:37:23 AM by Gregmal »

RuleNumberOne

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2020, 11:09:15 AM »
I support TAs, RAs, faculty, postdocs, medical residents. TA/RAs are paid around $1300 per month and don't get a pension. Postdocs and medical residents don't get a pension either. So they are very cheap and efficient. Faculty deserve their pensions. But all departments in the university cannot be treated the same.

The UC system added 19,000 full-time non-academic employees in the last 5 years alone. The average UC employee gets a $88k pension guaranteed by California's taxpayers. The current UC student enrollment is just 280k.

I was thinking along the same lines as Gregmal. The universities should make the student loans and hold them on their balance sheet. If students cannot repay, it comes out of the employee pensions and salaries (first thing to go should be the Dean's salary). Then universities would be very careful about what departments they keep, how many employees they hire, how much they pay whom in which department, whether non-faculty should get pensions etc.


Just a few quick comments. You are putting many employees in the administration category who are not administrators but aid in the educational mission of the UC system. For instance, the 25,972 teaching assistants. Many of these do direct teaching. For a freshman general chemistry class at Cal you might have 520 students in the class. This would consist of three hours of lecture per week, which might be two sections with a faculty member would teach in a 260-seat lecture hall. Then there would be a three-hour laboratory per week. This would be a laboratory classroom that might accommodate 26 students. You would have 20 of these sections per week and a teaching assistant would teach two of these sections.

There are 6,491 postdoctoral scholars and 6,034 medical interns/residents. In a sense these are students getting more experience/training but not with an end degree as the goal. Also, the funding for the postdoctoral scholars does not come from the UC system. This funding would come from the contracts and grants of faculty members who hire these postdocs. The funding for the interns and residents would come from patient fees.

I donít disagree there has been growth in number of administrators. Some of this is due to increased federal regulations. To deal with FERPA, the American Disabilities Act, etc. requires increased administration. For 20 years I never knew that students in my class may have learning disabilities. Today about 4% of my students have accommodations. This means special situations for testing that is done at other locations/times than the exams I give my class. It takes staff to administer all these individual tests.

LC, I think you missed this in my post in the heat of the moment. I said the teaching staff are a small minority (like 10%) of the total university employee count.

The link below from the U. of California website clearly shows the faculty are just one-tenth of the employee count at the U. of California.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/infocenter/uc-employee-headcount

If you add up the faculty, it comes to 23k while the total university employee count is 236k.

The average pension for a UC employee is $88k. There are just 280k students enrolled. Universities need to get more efficient. Just shut down the useless majors.

The cost of "college education" is not going to get fixed. Universities maintain a 1:1 ratio for students:staff. I think the teaching staff are a small minority (something like 10%) of the university employees. Why do you need that many non-teaching employees and so many useless majors?

The average pension for a U. of California employee is $88,000 per year.

If you consider that you might have one pensioner per active student, plus one university employee per active student, you can see why college costs can never come down.

University employees are unionized and no politician wants to alienate the unions.

It's incredible that on a value investing website, factual evidence is treated to casually.

According to the National Center for Education Statistics, the national average for college student-to-faculty ratios is 18:1.

RuleNumberOne

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Bernie Sanders casts sinister shadow over the stock market
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2020, 11:28:31 AM »
I may be completely wrong in talking about the UC because its possible the UC has no share in the student loan crisis. I have come across interns from expensive very-low-ranked private colleges (lot more expensive than a UC) who don't know any Unix commands even with one year left for graduation in computer science.

We need a breakdown of the outstanding student loans by major and by college. If colleges hold all the loans on their balance sheets, and reported loan losses on their income statements just like banks, we would be fine.