Author Topic: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!  (Read 1487 times)

Castanza

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I understand the removal of confederate statues from public places. I understand renaming military bases which have been named after confederate generals. The confederacy was an enemy of the state. I still think these have their place in society, but more so in a museum. If we look at countries who have overcome dictators and brutal leaders what have they done? They tear down the statues. People complaining about the confederate monuments being removed from public places are a bit ignorant.

But....

Tearing down statues of Teddy Roosevelt at the Natural History Museum? That man was probably one of the best leaders this country had. He established the national parks. established programs to help the poor, and was one of (if not the) first to have a black advisor in the white house! He helped build the Panama canal and established relations with South America....ffs....Somehow it's racist that he is on a horse and the Native American and African American next to him are not. The man was a Rough Rider...he is almost always depicted on a horse...

But yes, let's erase history from the books. Let's deface WWII monuments, let's tear down Washington D.C monuments and even castings of Stevie Ray Vaughn...Let's rename Columbus "Flavortown" LOL (tbh I don't really care about Columbus. He wasn't even American, nor was he the first individual to "discover North America".)

"Every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered....History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." - 1984 - George Orwell



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cwericb

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Re: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2020, 07:41:56 AM »
I pretty much agree with Castanza's comments.

Modern society needs to remember these wise words... 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' (George Santayana-1905)

Tearing down statues will never change history, it merely covers it up.
Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason. - Mark Twain

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2020, 07:48:43 AM »
I pretty much agree with Castanza's comments.

Modern society needs to remember these wise words... 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' (George Santayana-1905)

Tearing down statues will never change history, it merely covers it up.

So where are the statues of slaves and early prominent black scholars and leaders?  A familiar argument has long been that the real coverup is in not teaching and memorializing African American history.

"The museum has asked to remove the Theodore Roosevelt statue because it explicitly depicts black and indigenous people as subjugated and racially inferior."

https://news.yahoo.com/theodore-roosevelt-statue-removed-york-102125173.html
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 08:03:03 AM by ERICOPOLY »

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2020, 08:16:01 AM »
Tearing down statues of Teddy Roosevelt at the Natural History Museum? That man was probably one of the best leaders this country had.

He was amazing but the statue is in poor taste and offensive, similar to the "kung flu" comment.  People have called for it's removal for years.  It is distracting from the positive things that he accomplished.

Castanza

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Re: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2020, 08:27:53 AM »
Tearing down statues of Teddy Roosevelt at the Natural History Museum? That man was probably one of the best leaders this country had.

He was amazing but the statue is in poor taste and offensive, similar to the "kung flu" comment.  People have called for it's removal for years.  It is distracting from the positive things that he accomplished.

One bullshit interpretation of the statue claims it's racist without proof of anything other than a personal interpretation. Complete nonsense Eric....

The two walking figures have been construed as representations of continents, not individuals in a narrative, and that was common practice in public sculpture, of which London's Albert Memorial is a prominent example. At the same time, the "pyramidal composition" with Roosevelt at its apex "implies a hierarchy". One analysis of the work, after examining the careers of both Roosevelt and Fraser, concludes that "Both men evidently believed in white dominance as natural order. However, Roosevelt and Fraser also had sincere, if paternalistic, admiration for indigenous cultures and a desire to preserve images and artifacts in what was, for the time, a relatively respectful manner."[6] As an early champion of civil rights and equality for black and native Americans during the early 20th century, many feel the statue depicts Roosevelt as leading minority persons in the U.S. forward towards the promises made to all under the U.S. constitution. Roosevelt's relationship with Booker T. Washington and his appointment of Minnie Cox as the first black regional postmaster in the United States (Indianola, MS) is seen as further cementing this view. Roosevelt's own comments regarding race indicated that he believed all the races were equal, but some cultures were superior due to their greater technological advances over time. The sculptor of the statue, James Earle Fraser, stated the intent with these words: “The two figures at [Roosevelt’s] side are guides symbolizing the continents of Africa and America, and if you choose may stand for Roosevelt’s friendliness to all races.”
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rb

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Re: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2020, 08:37:14 AM »
I agree with everything you say Castanza. I think the explanation to what you see is because these monuments should have been gone a long time ago.

The statues are not coming down now because we rationally arrived at the conclusion that they've outlived their purpose. These statues are coming down because of a boiling over of anger and frustration of the system and what these monuments represent. When you've created that situation and pushed it to this point I think you should expect that it will go too far.

Of course Teddy Roosevelt is too far. But when a person or movement boils over in anger is not gonna sit down and question oh is this or that action reasonable? That's why when there's a blaze going on firefighters try to control it and not fan the flames.

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2020, 10:00:29 AM »
Tearing down statues of Teddy Roosevelt at the Natural History Museum? That man was probably one of the best leaders this country had.

He was amazing but the statue is in poor taste and offensive, similar to the "kung flu" comment.  People have called for it's removal for years.  It is distracting from the positive things that he accomplished.

One bullshit interpretation of the statue claims it's racist without proof of anything other than a personal interpretation. Complete nonsense Eric....

The two walking figures have been construed as representations of continents, not individuals in a narrative, and that was common practice in public sculpture, of which London's Albert Memorial is a prominent example. At the same time, the "pyramidal composition" with Roosevelt at its apex "implies a hierarchy". One analysis of the work, after examining the careers of both Roosevelt and Fraser, concludes that "Both men evidently believed in white dominance as natural order. However, Roosevelt and Fraser also had sincere, if paternalistic, admiration for indigenous cultures and a desire to preserve images and artifacts in what was, for the time, a relatively respectful manner."[6] As an early champion of civil rights and equality for black and native Americans during the early 20th century, many feel the statue depicts Roosevelt as leading minority persons in the U.S. forward towards the promises made to all under the U.S. constitution. Roosevelt's relationship with Booker T. Washington and his appointment of Minnie Cox as the first black regional postmaster in the United States (Indianola, MS) is seen as further cementing this view. Roosevelt's own comments regarding race indicated that he believed all the races were equal, but some cultures were superior due to their greater technological advances over time. The sculptor of the statue, James Earle Fraser, stated the intent with these words: “The two figures at [Roosevelt’s] side are guides symbolizing the continents of Africa and America, and if you choose may stand for Roosevelt’s friendliness to all races.”

Way to disregard a view you don't agree with.  That's the real "bullshit". 

Show some tolerance to the contribution of another.  This isn't a shoutdown contest, stomp your feet and demand consent to your opinion.

You quote George Orwell.  How would he feel about your response to me?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 10:06:16 AM by ERICOPOLY »

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2020, 10:26:40 AM »

“The statue has long been controversial because of the hierarchical composition that places one figure on horseback and the others walking alongside,” the museum said in a statement. “Many of us find its depictions of the Native American and African figures and their placement in the monument racist.”

Even many of Roosevelt’s supporters agreed.

Theodore Roosevelt IV, a great-grandson of the former president and museum trustee, told The New York Times he was fine with the removal.

“The composition of the Equestrian Statue does not reflect Theodore Roosevelt’s legacy,” he said in a statement to the newspaper. “It is time to move the statue and move forward.”


https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/ben-stiller-teddy-roosevelt-statue-083805358.html
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 10:37:09 AM by ERICOPOLY »

Castanza

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Re: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2020, 11:17:54 AM »
Tearing down statues of Teddy Roosevelt at the Natural History Museum? That man was probably one of the best leaders this country had.

He was amazing but the statue is in poor taste and offensive, similar to the "kung flu" comment.  People have called for it's removal for years.  It is distracting from the positive things that he accomplished.

One bullshit interpretation of the statue claims it's racist without proof of anything other than a personal interpretation. Complete nonsense Eric....

The two walking figures have been construed as representations of continents, not individuals in a narrative, and that was common practice in public sculpture, of which London's Albert Memorial is a prominent example. At the same time, the "pyramidal composition" with Roosevelt at its apex "implies a hierarchy". One analysis of the work, after examining the careers of both Roosevelt and Fraser, concludes that "Both men evidently believed in white dominance as natural order. However, Roosevelt and Fraser also had sincere, if paternalistic, admiration for indigenous cultures and a desire to preserve images and artifacts in what was, for the time, a relatively respectful manner."[6] As an early champion of civil rights and equality for black and native Americans during the early 20th century, many feel the statue depicts Roosevelt as leading minority persons in the U.S. forward towards the promises made to all under the U.S. constitution. Roosevelt's relationship with Booker T. Washington and his appointment of Minnie Cox as the first black regional postmaster in the United States (Indianola, MS) is seen as further cementing this view. Roosevelt's own comments regarding race indicated that he believed all the races were equal, but some cultures were superior due to their greater technological advances over time. The sculptor of the statue, James Earle Fraser, stated the intent with these words: “The two figures at [Roosevelt’s] side are guides symbolizing the continents of Africa and America, and if you choose may stand for Roosevelt’s friendliness to all races.”

Way to disregard a view you don't agree with.  That's the real "bullshit". 

Show some tolerance to the contribution of another.  This isn't a shoutdown contest, stomp your feet and demand consent to your opinion.

You quote George Orwell.  How would he feel about your response to me?

Disregard? I read the multitude of views and came to the conclusion that they are complete bullshit. Society (and apparently you) have this new conceived notion that everything moving forward needs to be met with some type of middle ground to appease everyone. I think that's nonsense. I think these views stretch themselves and the context of the monument in order to perceive it as racist.

From now on, lets draw the Earth as an oval, that way we can be inclusive of all views. It's not quite flat, but it's also not quite round! See everyone is happy! Hakuna Matata!

If anything the statue for the time period when it was created was quite radical. Teddy Roosevelt was also considered pretty radical at times with some of the things he did alongside minorities. I think the later interpretation is the correct one and the former one I mentioned bears ZERO evidence of being true. Appeasing opinions simply because they exist is ridiculous. It's a race baiting opinion. Why stop at the statue? TR basically filled the museum himself with hunting trips to Africa. One of these trips him and his party killed over 11,400 specimens including 7 white rhinos. Maybe we should empty the museum because by today's standards it would be wrong to do that. If we want to talk about museums though we should skip on over the Pond and look at the UK who basically stole and pillaged every artifact they have.

Anyways, the sculptor himself said the monument was made to paint all three figures as heroic. Art should be interpreted with in the context (time) it was created and within the context of the artists view point. Teddy was not without his racial antics. But he was light years ahead of the majority of his peers in terms of racial relations. I am not a major Teddy fanboy. Some of his policies I don't really agree with. Or specifically how he accomplished them. But I still think he was a great leader in American history and did some good things.

Society should be moving forward while remembering the past. Not trying to white wash everything out. To your above point about Slavery monuments I think we should have that. I'm also a big advocate to have in HS an entire mandatory course which does nothing but teach about slavery and the history of it in (mostly) and outside of the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL2CW8bZ0to

Let's keep going though.

I think we should tear down Mount Rushmore.

I think we should tear down the pyramids because slaves built them.

I think we should tear down ancient South American cities and pyramids because slaves likely contributed to their construction.

I think we should tear down the Colosseum because they used to take Christians, sew them in animal carcasses and then feed them to lions. 

Let's make Turkey pay reparations to every person of African decent because they are responsible for starting the African Slave trade (sorry Tim Kane)

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Castanza

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Re: Burn the Books, Smash the Paintings, and Tear Down the Monuments!
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2020, 07:48:09 AM »
CNN: "President Trump to give a speech in front of two slave owners on stolen land."

Propaganda pandering at it's finest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3FzFUSyS_c
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