Author Topic: Canada has a race problem too.  (Read 3093 times)

stahleyp

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2020, 05:14:11 PM »
Yes, Canada definitely has its problems :-) The first step is admitting you have a problem.

Listen to the leader of Canada (Trudeau) and the leader of the US (Trump) speak on the race issue. Given what each leader is saying which country has a better chance of making progress on this issue?

Trudeau has a history of being a racist but hiding it better (you know, like a typical politician). Do you have any pictures of Trump in brown/blackface? What's the best evidence you have of Trump being racist?

Keep in mind, I'm not saying you don't have it or that there isn't better evidence, but I've not seen it.

I had To smile when i read your question. If you do not have the answer by now there is nothing i can add that will help :-)

Okay then, do you have something worse than this?

https://time.com/5680759/justin-trudeau-brownface-photo/

If not, why hold that opinion?

Yes, Trudeau did a couple stupid things when he was much younger. Are you suggesting this is worse behaviour than what we have seen from Trump the past 3 years?

Not sure if you are aware but Trudeau has apologized for his past behaviour and said it was wrong. Has Trump ever apologized for any of his much more terrible past behaviour the past three years (or before that)?

Cracks me up... i am generally NOT a Trudeau fan. Also cracks me up how many senior, Republican former Trump employees say Trump is unfit for office. And Bush, Powell and many, many more. And they explain why Trump is unfit for office in great detail for those who are interested in learning more. All of these Republicans explain things much, much better than i can.

The question wasn't about if Trump is unfit. You compared Trump vs Trudeau for race issues. I provided evidence that Trudeau has a racist past. You claimed that Trump is also racist. I would like your best evidence.

I know that places like the NY Times claim that Bush won't support Trump. But Bush's spokesman says otherwise:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/501702-report-that-bush-wont-support-trump-reelection-completely-made-up-spokesman
Paul


LC

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2020, 06:10:14 PM »
The question wasn't about if Trump is unfit. You compared Trump vs Trudeau for race issues. I provided evidence that Trudeau has a racist past. You claimed that Trump is also racist. I would like your best evidence.

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=trump+racism+examples
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stahleyp

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2020, 07:38:22 PM »
The question wasn't about if Trump is unfit. You compared Trump vs Trudeau for race issues. I provided evidence that Trudeau has a racist past. You claimed that Trump is also racist. I would like your best evidence.

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=trump+racism+examples

So let's go through a few of these one by one (found by your link):

https://www.huffpost.com/?icid=hjx004


He attacked Muslim Gold Star parents.

Islam isn't a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

He claimed a judge was biased because ďheís a Mexican.Ē

Being Mexican is also not a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

The Justice Department sued his company ― twice ― for not renting to black people.

 and

In fact, discrimination against black people has been a pattern in his career.

How do we know that he was in charge of the rent or other procedures?

He refused to condemn the white supremacists who are campaigning for him.

He has a fighting relationship with CNN. He later disavowed Duke. Is it concerning? Yes. But they fact that he disavowed later on reduces the concern.

He questioned whether President Obama was born in the United States.

It took Obama 3 years to come up with the long form of it. While I think Obama was born in the US, the long delay doesn't build confidence.

He treats racial groups as monoliths.

Seriously, putting "the" makes someone a racist?

He trashed Native Americans, too.

ďthey donít look like Indians to me... They donít look like Indians to Indians.Ē

Not eloquent but do you really find that super hateful (ie racist)?


He encouraged the mob justice that resulted in the wrongful imprisonment of the Central Park Five.

He wanted to bring back the death penalty for murder. Is that racist or just his view of being tough?

So, can we say that he is culturally insensitive? That's pretty fair.

Racist? Well, if you're going to say Trump is racist, you also have to say that Trudeau is. I find the evidence against Trudeau worse.





Paul

LC

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2020, 09:08:00 PM »
Quote
He attacked Muslim Gold Star parents.

Islam isn't a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

He claimed a judge was biased because ďheís a Mexican.Ē

Being Mexican is also not a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

Well, what you fail to see could fill a book. But your failures do not mean you are correct.
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SafetyinNumbers

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2020, 10:01:56 PM »
If already mentioned and I missed it, forgive me but I think the predominant reason these issues exist in Canada (and broadly around the world) is police culture. There are psychopaths in every population (some might even be racist too) and police are no exception. Unfortunately, police culture seems to be to protect your fellow officer over the general population. I think police who have unresolved issues may express them in violence and they choose marginalized communities because police culture and systemic racism will protect them.

I can understand how police culture evolved this way or why it has always been this way. People make mistakes and the policy decisions in order to lower the number of mistakes has been to increase punishment. Much like the criminal justice system, increasing punishment doesn't reduce crime. If you are police, you need to know if you make a mistake your fellow officer has your back because most people like to avoid punishment. Thatís especially true, if it means losing money through a suspension or loss of a pension.. So the "good cops" end up protecting "bad apples". That's why those cops in Minnesota stood by and watched.

I don't think the media should focus on the actual cop who may have murdered George Floyd. He was likely just an opportunistic psychopath. Alternatively, he could have been following his training within a reasonable margin of error in which case, I hope we should be able to agree that the training needs to be reformed.

The cop had been written up many times so he knew he could get away with a lot but this time he miscalculated badly. Why would he think he could get away with it? I think because George Floyd was black.

 I might be wrong in that specific case because apparently they knew each other before this encounter but it would not surprise me if that is the case around the country most of the time something terrible happens..

The argument from the "there is no racism" side is generally that certain populations are more prone to crime because of their culture/financial condition and the statistics demonstrate that so there is nothing to argue about". It's an unfair summation but I think it's well understood.

The problem with that argument is that it doesn't account for the over policing contributed to by revenue needs of municipalities. The Ferguson FBI report apparently demonstrated that black communities were overpoliced in order to generate additional revenue for the municipality. There is inflation everywhere and there are only so many revenue lines. If the city increases property taxes, everyone who donates money to campaigns will vote the incumbent out of office but the turmoil leading up to that election is not going to be fun for whoever is in office or in the police or on the bench. .

Other big revenue items are things like court fees or fines. Thatís something that can increase if police forces over police. So they do. They smother the population and try to write as many tickets as possible in order to generate revenue. These guys are like day traders trying to scalp half a cent. Just grinding.

I only read the summary of the Ferguson report because although I care, I donít think I have power to change anything. I canít see how people canít see it. Itís really startling to me but we all have different lenses and I donít judge anyone because I concede Iím probably entirely wrong. Anyway, this is an example of an encounter that was included in the Ferguson DOJ  report:

In the summer of 2012, an officer detained a 32-year-old African-American man who was sitting in his car cooling off after playing basketball. The officer arguably had grounds to stop and question the man, since his windows appeared more deeply tinted than permitted under Fergusonís code. Without cause, the officer went on to accuse the man of being a pedophile, prohibit the man from using his cell phone, order the man out of his car for a pat-down despite having no reason to believe he was armed, and ask to search his car. When the man refused, citing his constitutional rights, the officer reportedly pointed a gun at his head, and arrested him. The officer charged the man with eight different counts, including making a false declaration for initially providing the short form of his first name (e.g., ďMikeĒ instead of ďMichaelĒ) and an address that, although legitimate, differed from the one on his license. The officer also charged the man both with having an expired operatorís license, and with having no operatorís license in possession. The man told us he lost his job as a contractor with the federal government as a result of the charges.


https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf

To me itís incredibly sad and terrifying  how quickly a manís life has been turned upside down randomly. I think we can all agree that if this is happening to white people as much as it is happening  to black or indigenous people that we need to change that as a society. Itís just a lot of wasted social and economic potential. Some organizations are benefiting from short term cash flow as a result of the encounter, however, like the city, the police. lawyers, prisons. bail bondsmen and parole officers. Plus the unions of all of these groups. The loss in potential to society and the economy is potentially exponentially higher in the long term. Itís like the equivalent of harvesting wheat for food at the beginning of a Civilizations VI game. Sure, you get an extra citizen in the short term but the city may never reach its full potential because of the short term decision. Or you put a district there and it was a great call. These analogies are not well thought out. (If anyone wants to play let me know. I recently started playing Play By Cloud on Steam PC and itís fun against a human. I have only played against one person so far though.)

Some might argue just because police have been both incentivized and instructed to over police, it doesnít mean that marginalized communities are unfairly targeted. I suppose they just happen to be the people who the police see and that might be true. If general convention is applied then neighbourhoods with highest crime rates should have the most police. Thatís the explanation for all of the crime statistics if the incentives are having their effect. Itís not clear whether whatís the chicken and whatís the egg.

If police are revenue seeking then they are incentivized to agitate the population until it becomes almost unbearable. I have never had an issue with law enforcement, myself. I may be writing out of complete ignorance. I canít imagine what it would be like to get stopped by police multiple times a decade let alone multiple times a year or month just because.

I think we can all agree if this was done to the donor class, that whatever police chief and mayor who attempted it would be forced to resign the next month. But if you do it to marginalized communities, the mayor and police chief will have a few special interest groups that will get in their face.

To gain legitimacy and to show the mayor is committed to progress a few NPOs will get close to the city. The city then pays them to make speeches to their police officers about how they need to be better police officers. Maybe the city even pays for training but probably not because the budget is tight! But that might be about to change. Just more wasted money. That is usually enough to appease the community but it keeps costing more to run a city every year. The pension is underfunded and the unions are strong so the behavior continues.

Is that systemic racism? It seems like it to me. Arenít we incentivized to change the incentives in the system.

To me that is what Defund the Police is about. Itís about defunding the infrastructure that supports the above narrative.

I donít know if the narrative is legitimate but some of it has to ring true doesnít it?

Can we agree whatever system incentivized what happened to that man in Ferguson who had just finished playing basketball and was excited about his life to have it get taken off course by a revenue seeking model is a system in need of reform?.

Who knows what he was doing for the government? He was limitless potential and it got inhibited by a messed up system. I donít know how prevalent this sort of revenue model is around North America or really any place that has marginalized communities. I donít even hear people talking about this problem in these terms and I consume a dizzying amount of mainstream media. I am not certain I have any of my own thoughts but I am still accountable for them as much as one should be for thoughts.

So this to me is what Defund the Police is about. The police unions benefit heavily from having revenue generating police. The more revenue the city needs the more police it needs and the more people that need to be oppressed more aggressively. Itís a goddamn bonanza if you have no heart at all. The poorest people with the lowest discretionary income being targeted because of incentives.

Defund the Police to me is about looking at the problems in our communities and applying resources in the most efficient way to foremost reducing occurrence of problems. When someone has an interaction with a police officer it should be friendly unless something has gone terribly wrong.

The only time I have spoken to a police officer (with the exception of my cousin) for more than a few seconds in the past 10 years was half a dozen years ago when my brother was in a car accident with his pregnant wife and his kid in the backseat (everyone is fully recovered and wonderful). Something had gone terribly wrong. The police that were present were helpful, efficient and quick to the scene.. They contributed positively to one of the worst moments in my life and although I wasnít in the accident, I was close by and was there within minutes. I am eternally grateful and I love my cousin.

I live in Canada now so I donít think our issues are as bad as in the US and I have conflated the two here but also that is just a feeling and I have not studied either closely enough to write anything I have written here.

I still think that revenue driven systemic racism contributes to our problems. Sure they go after poor white people too. No one is saying that poor white people have it good. Drug addicts in particular would probably not have a lot people in their corner or gay or trans people. You get the idea. Itís marginalized communities that get the brunt of the police damage. Their special interest groups can be corrupt or ineffective like all others so far. Itís not getting better and maybe itís worse.

Itís where police are because thatís where crime is supposed to be. Also itís a way higher likelihood if you trample over the rights of a marginalized white woman she might have a rich great aunt somewhere that could make life difficult for the police officer or mayor. The police officers who commit those offences are likely dealt with appropriately..It probably doesnít take a genius to decide who itís safe to focus on. Just go back to the same pond where there are  lots of fish and if you sink itís shallow enough that you probably wonít drown unless something goes terribly wrong.

So the idea with Defund the Police to me is to take away the revenue incentive system. That canít be a revenue line for cities. For example one idea could be that money raised for municipal offences should be given directly to the community that it comes from as a UBI.. That would reduce the incentive for police to target marginalized communities in their communities but no system is perfect.

Of course Police with their culture and incentive system could still choose to oppress marginalized communities because there will always be ďbad applesĒ protected by ďgood copsĒ  Also, some racist mayor or police chief may decide they can stop marginalized communities from coming into their communities by stopping them disproportionately because they look suspicious. Isnít that exactly that behavior we see now? Right now it also generates revenue and it also discourages people from marginalized communities to come into wealthy ones..

Society canít just change itís incentive system it needs to change its culture too. 

Thanks to anyone that read this. I came on the site tonight to see if anyone had ever written on a junior gold stock I own that I think is exceptionally cheap wondering if I should bother writing it up and instead I spend a few too many hours on this.

Iím sure like the gold stock idea I was considering above, most of you will think what I wrote was nonsense. Like with any investment idea I have ever posted on social media that has failed, I might end up agreeing with you at some point and I am always invested and usually become more invested because they usually donít work right away or unfortunately sometimes ever.

I hope we can all agree, at least the PnL is certain (and to be clear my PnL is decidedly not good this year, FWIW).
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 03:21:51 AM by SafetyinNumbers »

stahleyp

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2020, 05:19:26 AM »
Quote
He attacked Muslim Gold Star parents.

Islam isn't a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

He claimed a judge was biased because ďheís a Mexican.Ē

Being Mexican is also not a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

Well, what you fail to see could fill a book. But your failures do not mean you are correct.

Since I'm failing to see something that seems to indicate that you "see" it.

Now, I know you enjoy changing the meaning of words (subjective = objective...errr feelings!) or sending links of people who like to change the meaning (like the secular humanism article) and now you're at it again.  ;)

But, you realize that Islam is a religion, right? It's not a race. You realize that Mexico is a country? Please explain to me why saying something about a religion or country is "racist."

Sure, if you want to redefine "religion" and "country" to mean race, I guess you can but that does not make it so. I know liberals have the tendency to redefine words to fit their agenda but I don't.

Do you see why I'm no longer a liberal?

With all of that said, do you think that Biden is racist?
Paul

bearprowler6

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2020, 05:51:56 AM »
Quote
He attacked Muslim Gold Star parents.

Islam isn't a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

He claimed a judge was biased because ďheís a Mexican.Ē

Being Mexican is also not a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

Well, what you fail to see could fill a book. But your failures do not mean you are correct.

Since I'm failing to see something that seems to indicate that you "see" it.

Now, I know you enjoy changing the meaning of words (subjective = objective...errr feelings!) or sending links of people who like to change the meaning (like the secular humanism article) and now you're at it again.  ;)

But, you realize that Islam is a religion, right? It's not a race. You realize that Mexico is a country? Please explain to me why saying something about a religion or country is "racist."

Sure, if you want to redefine "religion" and "country" to mean race, I guess you can but that does not make it so. I know liberals have the tendency to redefine words to fit their agenda but I don't.

Do you see why I'm no longer a liberal?

With all of that said, do you think that Biden is racist?

Paul....it seems your world view is leading you astray on this one....sad.....educating yourself on the subject would be helpful and as such this article will be a good starting point......

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/muslims-are-not-a-race_b_8591660

And while we are at it....you seem so scared of "feelings"....you do know that relying on logic in isolation is a flawed approach? That damn world view of yours again....oh well.... I "feel" this should help....

https://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making


stahleyp

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2020, 06:37:46 AM »
Quote
He attacked Muslim Gold Star parents.

Islam isn't a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

He claimed a judge was biased because ďheís a Mexican.Ē

Being Mexican is also not a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

Well, what you fail to see could fill a book. But your failures do not mean you are correct.

Since I'm failing to see something that seems to indicate that you "see" it.

Now, I know you enjoy changing the meaning of words (subjective = objective...errr feelings!) or sending links of people who like to change the meaning (like the secular humanism article) and now you're at it again.  ;)

But, you realize that Islam is a religion, right? It's not a race. You realize that Mexico is a country? Please explain to me why saying something about a religion or country is "racist."

Sure, if you want to redefine "religion" and "country" to mean race, I guess you can but that does not make it so. I know liberals have the tendency to redefine words to fit their agenda but I don't.

Do you see why I'm no longer a liberal?

With all of that said, do you think that Biden is racist?

Paul....it seems your world view is leading you astray on this one....sad.....educating yourself on the subject would be helpful and as such this article will be a good starting point......

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/muslims-are-not-a-race_b_8591660

And while we are at it....you seem so scared of "feelings"....you do know that relying on logic in isolation is a flawed approach? That damn world view of yours again....oh well.... I "feel" this should help....

https://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making

He agrees that Muslims are not a race. What's your point here? What, exactly, do you know about Islam (besides of your reading of Huffpost articles, of course)?

Do you think there are some cultures are "better" than others? If so, you are a racist then - according to this guy.

Oh, at least my worldview is rational. Do you think yours is? ;)

Paul

bearprowler6

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2020, 06:46:51 AM »
Quote
He attacked Muslim Gold Star parents.

Islam isn't a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

He claimed a judge was biased because ďheís a Mexican.Ē

Being Mexican is also not a race. I fail to see how that is racist.

Well, what you fail to see could fill a book. But your failures do not mean you are correct.

Since I'm failing to see something that seems to indicate that you "see" it.

Now, I know you enjoy changing the meaning of words (subjective = objective...errr feelings!) or sending links of people who like to change the meaning (like the secular humanism article) and now you're at it again.  ;)

But, you realize that Islam is a religion, right? It's not a race. You realize that Mexico is a country? Please explain to me why saying something about a religion or country is "racist."

Sure, if you want to redefine "religion" and "country" to mean race, I guess you can but that does not make it so. I know liberals have the tendency to redefine words to fit their agenda but I don't.

Do you see why I'm no longer a liberal?

With all of that said, do you think that Biden is racist?

Paul....it seems your world view is leading you astray on this one....sad.....educating yourself on the subject would be helpful and as such this article will be a good starting point......

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/muslims-are-not-a-race_b_8591660

And while we are at it....you seem so scared of "feelings"....you do know that relying on logic in isolation is a flawed approach? That damn world view of yours again....oh well.... I "feel" this should help....

https://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making

He agrees that Muslims are not a race. What's your point here? What, exactly, do you know about Islam (besides of your reading of Huffpost articles, of course)?

Do you think there are some cultures are "better" than others? If so, you are a racist then - according to this guy.

Oh, at least my worldview is rational. Do you think yours is? ;)

I know it hurts to change....to admit a flawed world view.....this will help....

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/jenniferlerner/files/annual_review_manuscript_june_16_final.final_.pdf

cwericb

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Re: Canada has a race problem too.
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2020, 06:56:01 AM »
"He agrees that Muslims are not a race. What's your point here?"

Paul, perhaps you missed this sentence in the article?

"Let me be clear here. There is nothing rational about Islamophobia. Treating Muslims poorly because they are Muslim is racism. It is that simple.Ē
Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason. - Mark Twain