Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: BG2008 on June 15, 2020, 02:27:41 PM

Title: #CHAZ
Post by: BG2008 on June 15, 2020, 02:27:41 PM
Why is it so hard to find information on CHAZ?  The media doesn't really cover much of it
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 15, 2020, 02:47:19 PM
This is from a right wing site but helps add perspective (NYT and WP are pretty left wing these days, regardless of what they like to claim):

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/nyt-and-wapo-fawn-over-seattle-autonomous-zone-anarchists/

I was pretty hardcore liberal for a long time...not anymore.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 15, 2020, 03:07:02 PM
Yea "pretty liberal" has also changed quite a bit. You used to be liberal if you thought paying a little bit more in taxes and providing some welfare programs was acceptable. Now? It involves paying people for something they had no involvement in(reparations), wiping out everyones debts, eliminating police and border patrol/immigration, and basically whatever else CNN feeds you. Which in and of itself is quite amusing and batshit crazy sometimes. Like how on one hand they run adds about an apple not being a banana or whatever, but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man..... bizarre times. As long as these whackadoos stay in the liberal cities I dont really care.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Jurgis on June 15, 2020, 03:10:07 PM
Why is it so hard to find information on CHAZ?  The media doesn't really cover much of it

O rly? Took single Google:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 15, 2020, 03:10:33 PM
Why is it so hard to find information on CHAZ?  The media doesn't really cover much of it
Why not just count your blessings where you find them? This is not a bad thing.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 15, 2020, 03:19:17 PM
Why is it so hard to find information on CHAZ?  The media doesn't really cover much of it

O rly? Took single Google:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone

The only thing I see from "the most trusted name in news" CNN's homepage is reporting about Fox's reporting of it.

Yes, I'm sure the news that Jaws is 45 is more noteworthy but...yeah, no it's not.

Found this on a google search:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/06/15/inside-seattle-autonomous-zone-chaz-simon-pkg.cnn/video/playlists/top-news-videos/

Peaceful, meditation society. That place is like utopia!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 15, 2020, 03:25:50 PM
but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man.....

“it is impossible to discriminate against a person for being homosexual or transgender without discriminating against that individual based on sex.”

“If the employer retains an otherwise identical employee who was identified as female at birth, the employer intentionally penalizes a person identified as male at birth for traits or actions that it tolerates in an employee identified as female at birth. Again, the individual employee’s sex plays an unmistakable and impermissible role in the discharge decision.”

- Justice Gorsuch, today.

(and Trump nominated him, so don't blame the Liberals)
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: rb on June 15, 2020, 03:30:51 PM
Yea "pretty liberal" has also changed quite a bit. You used to be liberal if you thought paying a little bit more in taxes and providing some welfare programs was acceptable. Now? It involves paying people for something they had no involvement in(reparations), wiping out everyones debts, eliminating police and border patrol/immigration, and basically whatever else CNN feeds you. Which in and of itself is quite amusing and batshit crazy sometimes. Like how on one hand they run adds about an apple not being a banana or whatever, but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man..... bizarre times. As long as these whackadoos stay in the liberal cities I dont really care.
Behold Gregmal... the expert on liberalism.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Jurgis on June 15, 2020, 03:40:15 PM
It's so hard to be conservative nowadays. Just when you think you have your guy in the White House, he sends out $1200 checks to everyone in the country. With his name on them. And even boasts of it.

And that conservative Supreme Court... Eric covered that already...

Tough shit.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 15, 2020, 04:05:30 PM
but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man.....

“it is impossible to discriminate against a person for being homosexual or transgender without discriminating against that individual based on sex.”

“If the employer retains an otherwise identical employee who was identified as female at birth, the employer intentionally penalizes a person identified as male at birth for traits or actions that it tolerates in an employee identified as female at birth. Again, the individual employee’s sex plays an unmistakable and impermissible role in the discharge decision.”

- Justice Gorsuch, today.

(and Trump nominated him, so don't blame the Liberals)

This deals with discrimination, not biology. 
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 15, 2020, 04:13:13 PM
 
Why is it so hard to find information on CHAZ?  The media doesn't really cover much of it

So is the purpose of this topic to discuss CHAZ or CHOP or whatever it's called?

Or is it to discuss your assertion that the media isn't "really covering" it?

I think the former is a potentially interesting topic of discussion, but the latter is...well let's just say I am doing my best not to past a "Let me google that for you" link :D
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 15, 2020, 04:25:59 PM
but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man.....

“it is impossible to discriminate against a person for being homosexual or transgender without discriminating against that individual based on sex.”

“If the employer retains an otherwise identical employee who was identified as female at birth, the employer intentionally penalizes a person identified as male at birth for traits or actions that it tolerates in an employee identified as female at birth. Again, the individual employee’s sex plays an unmistakable and impermissible role in the discharge decision.”

- Justice Gorsuch, today.

(and Trump nominated him, so don't blame the Liberals)

This deals with discrimination, not biology.

What is it that you object to exactly? 

If you have it the way you want, you are going to wind up with individuals who were born female and who look just like men in the women's room.

If you don't have it the way you want, you are going to have individuals who were born male who look just like women in the women's room.

Why don't you just roll with it?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 15, 2020, 04:35:46 PM
You want this person to be required to use the men's room instead of the women's room?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/df/be/1bdfbea39e175f552cdf621de8b5675a.jpg

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 15, 2020, 04:57:56 PM
It doesnt really have anything to do with what one looks like. If chicks want to use the mens room, then thats less objectionable than dudes who want to use the ladies room. No biological women should really pose a threat to a biological man(physically at least, and generally speaking). If you have widely known co-ed bathrooms, that too solves an issue. People know what they are getting into. But the idea of a dude or ex-dude who now "claims" to feel like a lady sniffing around the same restrooms where mothers bring their little children and young girls go, just doesnt sit right with me. Too much of a stretch there. There are a lot of Jareds from Subway in the world.

Speaking of Subway's, what a total scam they are perpetrating on their franchisees. Running a 2/$10 promo to revitalize sales even though that isn't profitable for the unit owner, while taking 8% royalties on gross sales...
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 15, 2020, 05:03:29 PM
Liberalism has gotten so bad that I'll probably vote for Trump. I was like a Bernie liberal too - not even Clinton level (there are some things I still like about Bernie though).

If you would have said that I would be voting for Trump back in 2015/2016...there is no way I would have believed it.

I still remember making fun of his "have Mexico pay for the wall" speech and all of his other nonsense. I think the guys is incompetent and corrupt but really what other choice do I have?

I know several people who either voted for Clinton or didn't vote in 2016 who will most likely voting for Trump this year. I didn't vote for anyone in 2016 and have never voted for a Republican president. That's how insane the Democrats have gotten. And I don't even like Trump!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 15, 2020, 05:05:32 PM
But the idea of a dude or ex-dude who now "claims" to feel like a lady sniffing around the same restrooms where mothers bring their little children and young girls go, just doesnt sit right with me.

They (women) are very accepting.

I never let my little ones go into the restrooms unattended; a man can hide in a women's restroom, there's no guard keeping them out.

I've seen people born as female who have gone through female-to-male transition.  They just look like hairy dudes now.  And how are you going to keep men who were born as men out of the women's room if femaile-to-maie people are also forced to go in there?  You are going to tell them all apart?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 15, 2020, 05:11:57 PM
If chicks want to use the mens room, then thats less objectionable than dudes who want to use the ladies room.

You are looking at it from the viewpoint of whether it does or does not bother Greg.

How about the person's own safety?  Is it safe for women (biological or not) to go into the men's restroom?  If that is considered safe by you, then it must also be safe for biological males to go into the women's restroom. 

There isn't always a unisex restroom option because they are not required by law.

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 15, 2020, 05:25:11 PM
It's funny that when Justice Alito dissented, his explanation actually supports the majority opinion when he writes "Instead, all the debate concerned discrimination on the basis of biological sex".  That was exactly what the majority opinion was, that you can't discriminate against a worker for a given behavior solely on the basis of biological sex.


In dissent, however, Justice Samuel Alito, joined by Justice Clarence Thomas, called the majority’s reasoning “preposterous.” Rather than strictly reading the statute, he wrote, “there is only one word for what the Court has done today: legislation.”

“‘Sex,’ ‘sexual orientation,’ and ‘gender identity,’ are different concepts,” Justice Alito wrote, observing that repeated efforts to explicitly add the latter terms to Title VII have died in Congress. During debates over the 1964 Civil Rights Act, no member of Congress “said one word about the possibility that the prohibition of sex discrimination might have that meaning. Instead, all the debate concerned discrimination on the basis of biological sex,” Justice Alito wrote.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/supreme-court-rules-for-gay-rights-in-the-workplace-11592230310
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: rb on June 15, 2020, 05:32:06 PM
Liberalism has gotten so bad that I'll probably vote for Trump. I was like a Bernie liberal too - not even Clinton level (there are some things I still like about Bernie though).

If you would have said that I would be voting for Trump back in 2015/2016...there is no way I would have believed it.

I still remember making fun of his "have Mexico pay for the wall" speech and all of his other nonsense. I think the guys is incompetent and corrupt but really what other choice do I have?

I know several people who either voted for Clinton or didn't vote in 2016 who will most likely voting for Trump this year. I didn't vote for anyone in 2016 and have never voted for a Republican president. That's how insane the Democrats have gotten. And I don't even like Trump!
AS i remember it Bernie was kinda cool with the free college thing AND cancelling student debt.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 15, 2020, 05:39:11 PM
but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man.....

“it is impossible to discriminate against a person for being homosexual or transgender without discriminating against that individual based on sex.”

“If the employer retains an otherwise identical employee who was identified as female at birth, the employer intentionally penalizes a person identified as male at birth for traits or actions that it tolerates in an employee identified as female at birth. Again, the individual employee’s sex plays an unmistakable and impermissible role in the discharge decision.”

- Justice Gorsuch, today.

(and Trump nominated him, so don't blame the Liberals)

This deals with discrimination, not biology.


The worst thing about this transgender thing is the mental aspect. Many of these people are seriously screwed up. A dude thinks he's a woman, but he's not.  Gender dysphoria (gender identity disorder) is a real and serious psychological disorder.  I would never wish that on anyone I know.
This impairs many aspects of their lives.

The suicide rate for transgenders is 40%+ --- you want your children mixed up in that?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 15, 2020, 05:44:18 PM
The suicide rate for transgenders is 40%+ --- you want your children mixed up in that?

There is no choice about the matter unless a law is passed to require unisex bathrooms.

There are female-to-male individuals, and there are male-to-female individuals.

You'll need to haul a portable toilet in your truck and homeschool your kids.



Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: BG2008 on June 15, 2020, 05:45:11 PM
Okay guys

My goal is to try to aggregate information on CHAZ.  My motivation is to understand 1) what exactly is going on and 2) When and how the government will react and 3) lasting effects of this

My primary interest is driven by the fact that I invest in a lot of RE assets.  As you can imagine, if people start going into your neighborhood and start occupying it and effectively takes away your property rights, it's a big deal.  I am genuinely having a lot of trouble finding any information on it.  It is literally a real time experiment on a rather crazy idea.   

This is scary
https://twitter.com/VenturaReport/status/1272423863402426370
https://twitter.com/ShawnGui_/status/1272507245591269377
https://twitter.com/ShawnGui_/status/1272507247193550848
https://twitter.com/ShawnGui_/status/1272507251601752066
https://twitter.com/jason_howerton/status/1272617748829519873
https://twitter.com/CamEdwards/status/1272645022698156034

I really have to scrub twitter and reddit for information.  Yes, I can Google.


And Stop with the bullshit with the genders debates.  This thread is about CHAZ. 
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: BG2008 on June 15, 2020, 05:46:40 PM
https://twitter.com/Doranimated/status/1272671770319949824
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: BG2008 on June 15, 2020, 05:53:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX_byGODnfM
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: rb on June 15, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man.....

“it is impossible to discriminate against a person for being homosexual or transgender without discriminating against that individual based on sex.”

“If the employer retains an otherwise identical employee who was identified as female at birth, the employer intentionally penalizes a person identified as male at birth for traits or actions that it tolerates in an employee identified as female at birth. Again, the individual employee’s sex plays an unmistakable and impermissible role in the discharge decision.”

- Justice Gorsuch, today.

(and Trump nominated him, so don't blame the Liberals)

This deals with discrimination, not biology.


The worst thing about this transgender thing is the mental aspect. Many of these people are seriously screwed up. A dude thinks he's a woman, but he's not.  Gender dysphoria (gender identity disorder) is a real and serious psychological disorder.  I would never wish that on anyone I know.
This impairs many aspects of their lives.

The suicide rate for transgenders is 40%+ --- you want your children mixed up in that?
Whoa! Let me get this straight. If the transgender thing is a mental disorder as you say. Are you then saying that you're at risk at catching a mental disorder from someone taking a shit in the next stall?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 15, 2020, 05:55:58 PM
They've taken over a part of Seattle and established their own government.  Let's make peace with them and put up statues to them and name our military installations after them so that we don't forget our history.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: BG2008 on June 15, 2020, 05:59:55 PM
but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man.....

“it is impossible to discriminate against a person for being homosexual or transgender without discriminating against that individual based on sex.”

“If the employer retains an otherwise identical employee who was identified as female at birth, the employer intentionally penalizes a person identified as male at birth for traits or actions that it tolerates in an employee identified as female at birth. Again, the individual employee’s sex plays an unmistakable and impermissible role in the discharge decision.”

- Justice Gorsuch, today.

(and Trump nominated him, so don't blame the Liberals)

This deals with discrimination, not biology.


The worst thing about this transgender thing is the mental aspect. Many of these people are seriously screwed up. A dude thinks he's a woman, but he's not.  Gender dysphoria (gender identity disorder) is a real and serious psychological disorder.  I would never wish that on anyone I know.
This impairs many aspects of their lives.

The suicide rate for transgenders is 40%+ --- you want your children mixed up in that?
Whoa! Let me get this straight. If the transgender thing is a mental disorder as you say. Are you then saying that you're at risk at catching a mental disorder from someone taking a shit in the next stall?

Please take the gender debate elsewhere.  This thread is for CHAZ
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: BG2008 on June 15, 2020, 06:00:43 PM
Just read an account from someone whose mother lives in the area, and she's seventy. She tearfully said people were beating on her door demanding food and supplies, and refusal means getting your house spray painted, and they're pooping in her yard. Trash trucks have stopped, and she has no idea if an ambulance would come if she needed one. Certainly the police won't.

From a Youtube comment, obviously not verfied. 
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 15, 2020, 06:16:44 PM
Check the Daily Wire - there has been extensive coverage of CHAZ

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-police-chief-challenges-democrat-mayor-says-rapes-robberies-occurring-in-chaz-with-force-unable-to-respond

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-the-chaz-anti-police-graffiti-on-sidewalks-buildings-windows

https://www.dailywire.com/news/capitol-hill-autonomous-zone-now-has-armed-community-patrol-mayors-office-responds

https://www.dailywire.com/news/seattles-chaz-changes-its-name-to-chop-drops-autonomous-after-complaints

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-chaz-black-female-street-preacher-informs-white-woman-about-why-blacks-should-vote-against-democrat-party

https://www.dailywire.com/news/protesters-in-asheville-portland-nashville-and-chicago-try-to-create-autonomous-zones-police-arent-having-it


Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 15, 2020, 06:27:20 PM
Go to Breitbart News - and click on the "Lawless In Seattle" tab.

Breitbart is a news aggregator. Lots of coverage on CHAZ.

https://www.breitbart.com/tag/seattle/
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 15, 2020, 06:33:40 PM
A couple nice clips of "Law Enforcement" inside CHAZ:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/15/oann-jack-posobiec-chaz-chop-seattle/

Pulling guns, etc.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: BG2008 on June 15, 2020, 08:29:32 PM
A couple nice clips of "Law Enforcement" inside CHAZ:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/15/oann-jack-posobiec-chaz-chop-seattle/

Pulling guns, etc.

Thanks for the clips Cubsfan, this is exactly what I was looking to find.  CNN and other tends to paint a different picture.  I wanted a different view point.  Obviously, I am a bit biased.  I wouldn't want this anywhere near any of the properties that I own or REITs that I own. 
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 16, 2020, 04:53:18 AM
Liberalism has gotten so bad that I'll probably vote for Trump. I was like a Bernie liberal too - not even Clinton level (there are some things I still like about Bernie though).

If you would have said that I would be voting for Trump back in 2015/2016...there is no way I would have believed it.

I still remember making fun of his "have Mexico pay for the wall" speech and all of his other nonsense. I think the guys is incompetent and corrupt but really what other choice do I have?

I know several people who either voted for Clinton or didn't vote in 2016 who will most likely voting for Trump this year. I didn't vote for anyone in 2016 and have never voted for a Republican president. That's how insane the Democrats have gotten. And I don't even like Trump!
AS i remember it Bernie was kinda cool with the free college thing AND cancelling student debt.

I didn't agree with everything he said. ;)
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 16, 2020, 07:02:47 AM
A couple nice clips of "Law Enforcement" inside CHAZ:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/15/oann-jack-posobiec-chaz-chop-seattle/

Pulling guns, etc.

Thanks for the clips Cubsfan, this is exactly what I was looking to find.  CNN and other tends to paint a different picture.  I wanted a different view point.  Obviously, I am a bit biased.  I wouldn't want this anywhere near any of the properties that I own or REITs that I own.

It's a pleasure BG.

Be sure to check out the enclosed video clip here, of the "Summer of Love" and "Block Party":

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-the-chaz-anti-police-graffiti-on-sidewalks-buildings-windows
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 16, 2020, 07:07:44 AM
A couple nice clips of "Law Enforcement" inside CHAZ:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/15/oann-jack-posobiec-chaz-chop-seattle/

Pulling guns, etc.

Thanks for the clips Cubsfan, this is exactly what I was looking to find.  CNN and other tends to paint a different picture.  I wanted a different view point.  Obviously, I am a bit biased.  I wouldn't want this anywhere near any of the properties that I own or REITs that I own.

It's a pleasure BG.

Be sure to check out the enclosed video clip here, of the "Summer of Love" and "Block Party":

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-the-chaz-anti-police-graffiti-on-sidewalks-buildings-windows

It would be funny if they had a CHAZ II but with her neighborhood.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 16, 2020, 07:51:19 AM
A couple nice clips of "Law Enforcement" inside CHAZ:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/15/oann-jack-posobiec-chaz-chop-seattle/

Pulling guns, etc.

Thanks for the clips Cubsfan, this is exactly what I was looking to find.  CNN and other tends to paint a different picture.  I wanted a different view point.  Obviously, I am a bit biased.  I wouldn't want this anywhere near any of the properties that I own or REITs that I own.

I watched this guy’s footage for 15 min. What was found here? A guy walking around at night commenting? There was zero footage of anything he claimed.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: mcliu on June 16, 2020, 01:18:43 PM
Yea "pretty liberal" has also changed quite a bit. You used to be liberal if you thought paying a little bit more in taxes and providing some welfare programs was acceptable. Now? It involves paying people for something they had no involvement in(reparations), wiping out everyones debts, eliminating police and border patrol/immigration, and basically whatever else CNN feeds you. Which in and of itself is quite amusing and batshit crazy sometimes. Like how on one hand they run adds about an apple not being a banana or whatever, but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man..... bizarre times. As long as these whackadoos stay in the liberal cities I dont really care.

Also be a vegan, drive a Prius and hate guns.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 16, 2020, 02:42:31 PM
Yea "pretty liberal" has also changed quite a bit. You used to be liberal if you thought paying a little bit more in taxes and providing some welfare programs was acceptable. Now? It involves paying people for something they had no involvement in(reparations), wiping out everyones debts, eliminating police and border patrol/immigration, and basically whatever else CNN feeds you. Which in and of itself is quite amusing and batshit crazy sometimes. Like how on one hand they run adds about an apple not being a banana or whatever, but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man..... bizarre times. As long as these whackadoos stay in the liberal cities I dont really care.

Also be a vegan, drive a Prius and hate guns.

And you are a bigot now if you don't want your daughter facing a biological male in an athletic competition.

Speaking of which, if you can change your gender based on feelings, why can't you do the same for race? Race is way more ambiguous.

The bigots at the NYT said that Delozal was "pretending" to be black. But why isn't it okay to say that Jenner "pretends" to be female?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/25/us/rachel-dolezal-welfare-fraud.html

If you are going to self identify in a subjective manner, why is gender okay but not race?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: rb on June 16, 2020, 02:48:23 PM
Yea "pretty liberal" has also changed quite a bit. You used to be liberal if you thought paying a little bit more in taxes and providing some welfare programs was acceptable. Now? It involves paying people for something they had no involvement in(reparations), wiping out everyones debts, eliminating police and border patrol/immigration, and basically whatever else CNN feeds you. Which in and of itself is quite amusing and batshit crazy sometimes. Like how on one hand they run adds about an apple not being a banana or whatever, but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man..... bizarre times. As long as these whackadoos stay in the liberal cities I dont really care.

Also be a vegan, drive a Prius and hate guns.

And you are a bigot now if you don't want your daughter facing a biological male in an athletic competition.

Speaking of which, if you can change your gender based on feelings, why can't you do the same for race? Race is way more ambiguous.

The bigots at the NYT said that Delozal was "pretending" to be black. But why isn't it okay to say that Jenner "pretends" to be female?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/25/us/rachel-dolezal-welfare-fraud.html

If you are going to self identify in a subjective manner, why is gender okay but not race?
Too bad Michael Jackson is dead. You would have had a great time debating this stuff with him.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 16, 2020, 02:49:24 PM
Yea "pretty liberal" has also changed quite a bit. You used to be liberal if you thought paying a little bit more in taxes and providing some welfare programs was acceptable. Now? It involves paying people for something they had no involvement in(reparations), wiping out everyones debts, eliminating police and border patrol/immigration, and basically whatever else CNN feeds you. Which in and of itself is quite amusing and batshit crazy sometimes. Like how on one hand they run adds about an apple not being a banana or whatever, but then tell you with a straight face that a woman can actually be a man..... bizarre times. As long as these whackadoos stay in the liberal cities I dont really care.

Also be a vegan, drive a Prius and hate guns.

And you are a bigot now if you don't want your daughter facing a biological male in an athletic competition.

Speaking of which, if you can change your gender based on feelings, why can't you do the same for race? Race is way more ambiguous.

The bigots at the NYT said that Delozal was "pretending" to be black. But why isn't it okay to say that Jenner "pretends" to be female?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/25/us/rachel-dolezal-welfare-fraud.html

If you are going to self identify in a subjective manner, why is gender okay but not race?
Too bad Michael Jackson is dead. You would have had a great time debating this stuff with him.

But you're still here, rb. ;)
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: rb on June 16, 2020, 02:51:14 PM
Yea, but I'm so much more boring than he was. Was MJ black or white? Gay or Straight? Dude or Chick? Munch on that for a while.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 16, 2020, 02:53:07 PM
Yea, but I'm so much more boring than he was. Was MJ black or white? Gay or Straight? Dude or Chick? Munch on that for a while.


In this day and age, it's all on a spectrum so he can be whatever he wanted to be on any given day.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 16, 2020, 03:26:35 PM
Deal struck with the city:

The Seattle Department of Transportation is installing concrete barriers in the middle of Pine Street, running East and West, which will split the road for both pedestrian and vehicle traffic. This will allow for emergency service vehicles to pass through the area.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-deal-chop-temporary-roadblocks

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 16, 2020, 03:34:09 PM
Deal struck with the city:

The Seattle Department of Transportation is installing concrete barriers in the middle of Pine Street, running East and West, which will split the road for both pedestrian and vehicle traffic. This will allow for emergency service vehicles to pass through the area.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-deal-chop-temporary-roadblocks

Sooo...is thing permanent then? Concrete is more permanent than wooden barrier. 
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 16, 2020, 03:34:54 PM
Deal struck with the city:

The Seattle Department of Transportation is installing concrete barriers in the middle of Pine Street, running East and West, which will split the road for both pedestrian and vehicle traffic. This will allow for emergency service vehicles to pass through the area.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-deal-chop-temporary-roadblocks

It's always a good thing to give into the mob. Nice job "woke" mayor. Let the Summer of Love continue.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/anarchy-and-chaos-journalist-describes-seattles-chop-at-night

See clip - nice job saving the owners business before it got torched by the mob.

“Unfortunately, last night that was made very clear, when one person on a microphone and a loudspeaker was able to sic a mob of probably more than 100 people to chase down this business that was several blocks away. They just all descended on it. It was pure anarchy,” Ngo told Fox News, referring to CHOP’s dual nature.

“They pushed up against the fence and all rushed in. It could have been extremely violent,” he continued. “Fortunately it wasn’t, according to what I heard from the owner and staff. They had detained one of the comrades of this camp for alleged arson and theft. And, because of that, all [of] his comrades came to help get him out.”




Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 16, 2020, 03:38:02 PM
Disappointed that Trump didn't go WACO 2.0?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 16, 2020, 04:25:07 PM
It shrinks the area by a factor of 4. And it allows medical and emergency vehicles road access.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 16, 2020, 06:21:09 PM
Disappointed that Trump didn't go WACO 2.0?

Not one bit actually. I think Seattle is an awesome city.

If the citizens of Seattle and Washington state are happy with their woke politicians - they will get what they voted for.
It will be a high price in terms of destruction and respect for property rights, etc - but hey, it's their choice.

The new "residents" of CHAZ should have no problem destroying whatever is left - let the anarchists have their fun.
Just not in my town.

I really think Trump will be smart to let the local politicians face the music with their own voters.
After all, the residents are the ones that put this lunatic mayor, Jenny Durkan, in place. Hope they are happy with the "block party".
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 17, 2020, 03:10:23 PM
Law and Order in CHAZ:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/owner-of-store-bordering-chaz-says-he-called-911-numerous-times-while-mob-showed-up-says-police-never-came

complete with video..
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: winjitsu on June 17, 2020, 04:59:26 PM
I live here in Seattle, went to a few marches, have spoken to Raz, and have been to CHOP a few times. There some straight bullsh*t reporting on what's going on there and clear media agendas from the left and right. Absent of actually going there, I'm sure there are several live-streams of the area to give a better sense of the general vibe.

Happy to answer any questions about my experience there.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 18, 2020, 06:58:16 AM
I live here in Seattle, went to a few marches, have spoken to Raz, and have been to CHOP a few times. There some straight bullsh*t reporting on what's going on there and clear media agendas from the left and right. Absent of actually going there, I'm sure there are several live-streams of the area to give a better sense of the general vibe.

Happy to answer any questions about my experience there.

Please expand - I think it would be interesting to hear about your firsthand experiences.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 18, 2020, 07:03:53 AM
Its not about the "vibe". The issue is how that area was occupied. The police surrendered it to tame down the violence and because they were concerned the police precinct was going to be burned down.  Just a classic case of lefties using violence to get their way.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 18, 2020, 07:10:17 AM
Its not about the "vibe". The issue is how that area was occupied. The police surrendered it to tame down the violence and because they were concerned the police precinct was going to be burned down.  Just a classic case of lefties using violence to get their way.

That is a much too rational explanation of the issue. 
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 18, 2020, 07:21:29 AM
Just a classic case of lefties using violence to get their way.
Your post is a classic case of generalizing and cherry picking.

You conveniently ignore decades of police brutality, particularly towards blacks. And the non-violent forms of protest that occurred over that timeframe.

If police organizations had reformed their abusive practices years ago, this would be a non-issue and you might have a decent point.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 18, 2020, 08:17:58 AM
Just a classic case of lefties using violence to get their way.
Your post is a classic case of generalizing and cherry picking.

You conveniently ignore decades of police brutality, particularly towards blacks. And the non-violent forms of protest that occurred over that timeframe.

If police organizations had reformed their abusive practices years ago, this would be a non-issue and you might have a decent point.

Sure, let's fight racism with more racism, and some anarchy/lawlessnes to boot.

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 18, 2020, 08:40:37 AM
I don't think fighting anything with racism helps.

But in terms of the anarchy/violence/lawlessness: we've tried peaceful methods for DECADES. That hasn't worked.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 18, 2020, 11:01:25 AM
Soooooo, we have an issue. Police brutality or racism? Lets figure out the best way to attempt to solve this problem.

People(of all colors) experiencing issues with police officer conduct, rally against the current culture and demand reform amongst the training and use of force protocols throughout the country. Unite everybody, and single out no specific cops but rather let them ALL know that society is mandating a new way of doing business, so to speak. Not dissimilar from restructuring a business....

OR

Highlight cases of criminals having deadly encounters with police, make it ALL about one sub-fraction of the country, declare ALL cops are bad, and attack ANYONE who dares not boisterously jump on your bandwagon....


Hmmmmm. I can either assume many people are just plain stupid, or simply they do not actually want to solve the problem.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: winjitsu on June 18, 2020, 11:29:28 AM
Its not about the "vibe". The issue is how that area was occupied. The police surrendered it to tame down the violence and because they were concerned the police precinct was going to be burned down.  Just a classic case of lefties using violence to get their way.

Roping everyone into "lefties" is a bad simplification. There are BLM, Antifa, Anarchist, Proud-Boys, Communists, Gangs traveling in opportunistic looting caravans etc. A violent minority (Anarchist and Gangs) are taking away the narrative from a larger, more peaceful majority.

Police decided to militarize up, set-up a barricades, tear gas & flash bang protestors as marches were heating up. They did this in response to people throwing water bottles. They got massive backlash from the mayor, city council, and residents. They left to defuse the situation, but the situation was created by themselves.

Overly militarization of the police is exactly what the people are protesting against. None of the Seattle area precincts have been targeted or attacked ... and even without the police there now, the Cap hill precinct is boarded-up and untouched (save for some pro BLM graffiti on the outside). The risk was massively overstated and the police response was unjustified. It emblematic of the police culture that people are trying to change.

There was no violence used to take over CHOP. When the police left, the police scanners mentioned armed Proud-Boys were headed to the area to take over. Raz and his crew heard this and call people to the area to prevent them from taking over. In the end, nothing happened.

At CHOP, there was one person visibility armed when I was there, but looking at Fox News coverage, you would think the situation is much worse (https://petapixel.com/2020/06/15/fox-news-ran-photoshopped-photos-of-seattle-protests/). It's fear mongering and far from the truth.

Seattle has issues w/ large transient populations, mental health, and drug use (and associated petty crimes). These predate CHOP. One of the demands is to defund the police and redirect the funding that can solve these issues.

I've avoided the politics section for many years. It disheartening to see investors that approach companies with an open mindset, ask a a lot of questions, analyze things like company PR releases with a healthy dose of skepticism suddenly lose that ability when it comes to politics.

My question to people on this thread is: how many of you are approaching this (or BLM for that matter) with an open-mind and looking to learn more about the situation? Or are these events just detail point in a narrative you've already set your mind on?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 18, 2020, 11:54:40 AM
Here is an account of the protesters throwing Improvised Explosive... "water bottles" at the police last week.

Quote
Officials with the Seattle Police Department say several officers were injured during a clash with protesters outside the East Precinct in Capitol Hill Saturday night.

Around 7:30 p.m., police said demonstrators began moving barricades set up near 11th and Pine.

Police said they made multiple requests for them to stop.

Some of the demonstrators then began throwing rocks, bottles and “improvised explosives” at officers, police said.

The police department tweeted out a picture of what appears to be the remnants of a candle and a glass container in their original report about the “improvised explosives.”

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/police-officers-injured-after-protesters-throw-improvised-explosives-seattle/LGJ624HG5FHKJDYRKLY7X7NQ6A/

You want to see your society go to hell in 15 minutes you start backing people who throw bombs at police officers.  Of course this is not coincidence, that is exactly what the left is trying to do.  Go spend a few minutes watching interviews of CHAZ occupiers and you will hear them talk about revolution.

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 11:54:46 AM
It is total nonsense that citizens can overtake certain sections of a city and declare it as their own. What about all of the small business in the area or other citizens that don't want that?

It is.  However, done the 'right' way several states can be overtaken under the flag of 'Confederacy' and in the end they'll put up statues and monuments to remember forever what you've done.

The point of not shooting or hanging the Confederate officers after the war was to negotiate a peaceful settlement.  I don't think the city disagrees with you that it's total nonsense, but they don't want to just "Army up" and go in there with force as Trump proposed, because they are tired of the violence.

We could see another Waco with the guns blazing approach.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 18, 2020, 12:07:50 PM
It is total nonsense that citizens can overtake certain sections of a city and declare it as their own. What about all of the small business in the area or other citizens that don't want that?

It is.  However, done the 'right' way several states can be overtaken under the flag of 'Confederacy' and in the end they'll put up statues and monuments to remember forever what you've done.

The point of not shooting or hanging the Confederate officers after the war was to negotiate a peaceful settlement.  I don't think the city disagrees with you that it's total nonsense, but they don't want to just "Army up" and go in there with force as Trump proposed, because they are tired of the violence.

We could see another Waco with the guns blazing approach.

I don't disagree.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: rb on June 18, 2020, 12:09:04 PM
LOL a candle is now an improvised explosive?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 18, 2020, 12:30:14 PM
LOL a candle is now an improvised explosive?

Agree, fire away. Everyone throw candles packed inside glass bottles. Total safe and civilized.

But yes, a candle inside of a glass bottle that can explode would be the literal definition of an improvised explosive. But surely its just the dramatic deadline you object to. I recall you consistently being outraged, and against dramatized headlines in the past. Specifically when you post all the sarcasm about the MSNBC headlines so regularly...at least you are consistent!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: winjitsu on June 18, 2020, 12:36:10 PM

You want to see your society go to hell in 15 minutes you start backing people who throw bombs at police officers.  Of course this is not coincidence, that is exactly what the left is trying to do.  Go spend a few minutes watching interviews of CHAZ occupiers and you will hear them talk about revolution.


Bomb? Someone lit a firework. But again, you wouldn't know that unless you actually look into the situation or we're there like my friends were. Police and their PR have their own agenda too. The protests were peaceful through the whole day and some provocateurs stayed late in the night. These are a minority of the people protesting and the more you give attention to these people, the further you stray from the goal of the majority of the people and what they are advocating for.

I don't need to see cherry picked interviews of CHOP protestors because I actually can go there, talk to people and get a sense of the real "vibe." Frankly, you can hop on a flight and check it out too. I'm sure some people want revolution, there are communists and anarchist there too calling for the dismantling of capitalism. But these are NOT the majority -- who want demilitarization and defunding of the police and redirecting of money to fixing the long-term societal issues (mental health, homeless, education).

I edited my previous post, but i'll state my question to you again incase you missed it. Are approaching this (or BLM for that matter) with an open-mind and looking to learn more about the situation? Or are these events just detail point in a narrative you've already set your mind on?




Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 12:46:49 PM
But yes, a candle inside of a glass bottle that can explode

How does that explode?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Jurgis on June 18, 2020, 12:49:57 PM
But yes, a candle inside of a glass bottle that can explode

How does that explode?

I did not know that terrorist organization has infiltrated malls across the US:

https://www.yankeecandle.com/

Ban scented candles (in glass jars)! Make America Breathe Again!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 18, 2020, 12:52:28 PM
But yes, a candle inside of a glass bottle that can explode

How does that explode?

I'm no arson expert, but can imagine if you stuff the top with a rag it would resemble a molotov cocktail. Bigger point is really how one looks whats going on and comes to the conclusion their concern rests with the verbiage used to describe objects being thrown at police officers.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 12:55:07 PM
But yes, a candle inside of a glass bottle that can explode

How does that explode?

I'm no arson expert, but can imagine if you stuff the top with a rag it would resemble a molotov cocktail. Bigger point is really how one looks whats going on and comes to the conclusion their concern rests with the verbiage used to describe objects being thrown at police officers.

Okay, stuff the top with a rag.  How then does the candle stay lit without oxygen?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: rb on June 18, 2020, 12:58:19 PM
LOL a candle is now an improvised explosive?

Agree, fire away. Everyone throw candles packed inside glass bottles. Total safe and civilized.

But yes, a candle inside of a glass bottle that can explode would be the literal definition of an improvised explosive. But surely its just the dramatic deadline you object to. I recall you consistently being outraged, and against dramatized headlines in the past. Specifically when you post all the sarcasm about the MSNBC headlines so regularly...at least you are consistent!
I don't care about the headline, the police tweeted the candle as an improvised explosive.

No I don't think anyone should throw glass candles at police. But that just goes to show again the problems with police. A glass candle turns into an explosive in police reports.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Jurgis on June 18, 2020, 12:58:57 PM
But yes, a candle inside of a glass bottle that can explode

How does that explode?

I did not know that terrorist organization has infiltrated malls across the US:

https://www.yankeecandle.com/

Ban scented candles (in glass jars)! Make America Breathe Again!

What kind of leftie liberal scum are you, Jurgis?

You are going to take scented candles from our dead fingers.

This is against 2nd amendment right to bear candles.

Bring scented candle to the Tulsa rally!

Make America Smell Again!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 18, 2020, 01:00:19 PM
But yes, a candle inside of a glass bottle that can explode

How does that explode?

I'm no arson expert, but can imagine if you stuff the top with a rag it would resemble a molotov cocktail. Bigger point is really how one looks whats going on and comes to the conclusion their concern rests with the verbiage used to describe objects being thrown at police officers.

Okay, stuff the top with a rag.  How then does the candle stay lit without oxygen?

As I said, Im no arson expert, nor a terrorist. I just dont see the point to being outraged at, of all things, the description of the items being used to assault other people. Probably the definition of forest for the trees mentality. So lets say its not an "explosive".... you're cool with people chucking glass candles at you?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 01:02:52 PM
But yes, a candle inside of a glass bottle that can explode

How does that explode?

I'm no arson expert, but can imagine if you stuff the top with a rag it would resemble a molotov cocktail. Bigger point is really how one looks whats going on and comes to the conclusion their concern rests with the verbiage used to describe objects being thrown at police officers.

Okay, stuff the top with a rag.  How then does the candle stay lit without oxygen?

As I said, Im no arson expert, nor a terrorist. I just dont see the point to being outraged at, of all things, the description of the items being used to assault other people. Probably the definition of forest for the trees mentality. So lets say its not an "explosive".... you're cool with people chucking glass candles at you?

As long as I can write in my report that they were firing missiles at me.  Are you cool with the falsification of police records?  I think it's you that is missing the point here.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 01:06:47 PM
If you were afraid of the glass bottles being thrown at you and you feared for your lives/safety, then write "protestors threw glass bottles at us and we feared for officer safety" in your police report.  But don't write "incendiary bombs thrown at officers" or some BS like that.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: winjitsu on June 18, 2020, 02:05:52 PM


As I said, Im no arson expert, nor a terrorist. I just dont see the point to being outraged at, of all things, the description of the items being used to assault other people. Probably the definition of forest for the trees mentality. So lets say its not an "explosive".... you're cool with people chucking glass candles at you?


One person throws a glass candle in a crowd of 200 peaceful protestors, does that give you a right to tear gas and flash bang all of 200 of them? Then beat a few that don't clear out on time?

I think you're the one missing the point.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 02:24:48 PM
One person throws a glass candle in a crowd of 200 peaceful protestors, does that give you a right to tear gas and flash bang all of 200 of them? Then beat a few that don't clear out on time?

I think you're the one missing the point.

And that's why it was described as an improvised explosive device, and not just a glass bottle.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 02:38:13 PM
For everyone who is making a false boogeyman out of the CHAZ, however, there are an equal number of jokes that discredit the movement as being idealist, utopian, or just plain goofy. Yet nothing could be more Seattle. Known today for its strong liberal leanings (the election of Kshama Sawant to Seattle city council back in 2014 made her, at the time, the first socialist elected in a major U.S. city in decades), Seattle, and Washington state by extension, have long "nurtured a reputation for radicalism and reform," with "such progressive reforms as [women's] suffrage, industrial compensation, and direct legislation measures," writes historian Charles Pierce LeWarne in Utopias on Puget Sound, 1885-1915. By the count of one of LeWarne's colleagues, Washington has seen some 130 or more "intentional communities" during the course of its known history, all of which were established in rejection of social, religious, political, or governmental norms.

But at risk of painting Washington state as some rugged bastion of American progressivism, it is worth remembering that many of these communes were established by colonialists pre-statehood, and sadly reflected their values. One of the earliest such autonomous zones, the Puget Sound Cooperative Colony, founded in 1887 "on the principle that people could improve themselves and their lot in life through cooperation and unity," planted the seeds of the modern city of Port Angeles but was originally an extension of anti-Chinese riots in Seattle by white labor activists who were afraid of losing their jobs.

Minority-led occupations in Seattle have had more laudable intentions, as Vanishing Seattle recently recounted in a series of posts on their Instagram feed, and as incoming CHAZ protesters would bear to keep in mind. In March 1970, a group of some 100 Native Americans, led by activist Bernie Whitebear, "invaded" the recently-decommissioned Fort Lawton in south Seattle, turning it into a sort of "FLAZ" of its time. "We, the Native Americans, reclaim the land known as Fort Lawton in the name of all American Indians by right of discovery," the protesters announced. Occupation eventually turned into negotiations, and led the city to establish the Daybreak Star Indian Cultural Center on the land, with the fort's grounds becoming Discovery Park, the largest city park in Seattle. "The episode," wrote The Seattle Post-Intelligencer at the time, "is a heartwarming example of how major civic disputes can be resolved to the satisfaction of all, given responsible attitudes on the part of the participants and common concern for the community welfare."



https://theweek.com/articles/919853/seattles-policefree-autonomous-zone-no-anomaly
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 18, 2020, 03:11:56 PM
I don't think fighting anything with racism helps.

But in terms of the anarchy/violence/lawlessness: we've tried peaceful methods for DECADES. That hasn't worked.

LC you never seemed like the kind of guy that would condone such behavior - but once in a while you surprise me.

Anarchy it will be!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 18, 2020, 03:59:49 PM
You want anarchy? Welcome to hell.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/atlanta-mayor-acknoweldges-police-morale-is-down-ten-fold-begs-officers-to-return-to-work-after-walkout?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms acknowledged that police morale is “down ten-fold” in the city Wednesday night after dozens of officers reportedly called in sick or refused to leave their precincts

She also begged police to honor their commitment to their community and return to patrol.








Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 18, 2020, 04:06:21 PM
You want anarchy? Welcome to hell.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/atlanta-mayor-acknoweldges-police-morale-is-down-ten-fold-begs-officers-to-return-to-work-after-walkout?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms acknowledged that police morale is “down ten-fold” in the city Wednesday night after dozens of officers reportedly called in sick or refused to leave their precincts

She also begged police to honor their commitment to their community and return to patrol.

Make your bed, now lay in it. Some of these governors pandered to the crazies, and now lie in an Olympic pool sized tub of shit. I will enjoy watching them try to swim their way out of it now. Seattle too.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 04:22:31 PM
You want anarchy? Welcome to hell.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/atlanta-mayor-acknoweldges-police-morale-is-down-ten-fold-begs-officers-to-return-to-work-after-walkout?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms acknowledged that police morale is “down ten-fold” in the city Wednesday night after dozens of officers reportedly called in sick or refused to leave their precincts

She also begged police to honor their commitment to their community and return to patrol.

Make your bed, now lay in it. Some of these governors pandered to the crazies, and now lie in an Olympic pool sized tub of shit. I will enjoy watching them try to swim their way out of it now. Seattle too.

I'm surprised the officers are protesting the murder charge. 

Their fellow officer shot dead a man known to be unarmed in the back as he was running away from them.  The victim had discharged the taser twice, and the officer who fired knew it could not be discharged a third time (it's his own 2-shot taser).

You just can't shoot an unarmed man in the back these days, I quit.

According to Howard, Rolfe knew that the taser Brooks held while running away was inoperable after having been fired twice.

https://www.alternet.org/2020/06/fired-atlanta-cop-who-shot-rayshard-brooks-twice-in-the-back-to-be-charged-with-murder/
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 18, 2020, 04:26:25 PM
You want anarchy? Welcome to hell.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/atlanta-mayor-acknoweldges-police-morale-is-down-ten-fold-begs-officers-to-return-to-work-after-walkout?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms acknowledged that police morale is “down ten-fold” in the city Wednesday night after dozens of officers reportedly called in sick or refused to leave their precincts

She also begged police to honor their commitment to their community and return to patrol.

Make your bed, now lay in it. Some of these governors pandered to the crazies, and now lie in an Olympic pool sized tub of shit. I will enjoy watching them try to swim their way out of it now. Seattle too.

The mayors and governors are the ones who deserve all types of shit, along with senior police management. They are trying to play both sides. They have been pandering to police departments for years, are now trying to do the same by attempting to soothe protesters and progressives.

The reality is that police departments have screwed up. Public discontent has been growing for years now. And rather than making cultural changes in response, they chose to "hold individuals accountable". Well, that didn't work and now it is time to pay the piper - cut funding, limited roles, and de-fang union benefits and protections.

It is the mayors' and governors' responsibility to enforce these punitive measures.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 18, 2020, 04:48:59 PM
You want anarchy? Welcome to hell.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/atlanta-mayor-acknoweldges-police-morale-is-down-ten-fold-begs-officers-to-return-to-work-after-walkout?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms acknowledged that police morale is “down ten-fold” in the city Wednesday night after dozens of officers reportedly called in sick or refused to leave their precincts

She also begged police to honor their commitment to their community and return to patrol.

Make your bed, now lay in it. Some of these governors pandered to the crazies, and now lie in an Olympic pool sized tub of shit. I will enjoy watching them try to swim their way out of it now. Seattle too.

The mayors and governors are the ones who deserve all types of shit, along with senior police management. They are trying to play both sides. They have been pandering to police departments for years, are now trying to do the same by attempting to soothe protesters and progressives.

The reality is that police departments have screwed up. Public discontent has been growing for years now. And rather than making cultural changes in response, they chose to "hold individuals accountable". Well, that didn't work and now it is time to pay the piper - cut funding, limited roles, and de-fang union benefits and protections.

It is the mayors' and governors' responsibility to enforce these punitive measures.

Theres a fine line. De Blasio has similar problems. Buffetts adage of give praise specifically and blame generally definitely doesnt apply to this situation. Some of these politicians have gone very far out of their way to paint all cops with a bad brush and undetermined them consistently. If you ask anyone who's on a police force, they'll tell you that criticism is fine, but the way some of these guys are doing it is jeopardizing their safety. Typically, I would say that its never wise to alienate someone that you need. And in big cities, you need police to maintain order.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 18, 2020, 04:50:26 PM
You want anarchy? Welcome to hell.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/atlanta-mayor-acknoweldges-police-morale-is-down-ten-fold-begs-officers-to-return-to-work-after-walkout?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms acknowledged that police morale is “down ten-fold” in the city Wednesday night after dozens of officers reportedly called in sick or refused to leave their precincts

She also begged police to honor their commitment to their community and return to patrol.

Make your bed, now lay in it. Some of these governors pandered to the crazies, and now lie in an Olympic pool sized tub of shit. I will enjoy watching them try to swim their way out of it now. Seattle too.

I'm surprised the officers are protesting the murder charge. 

Their fellow officer shot dead a man known to be unarmed in the back as he was running away from them.  The victim had discharged the taser twice, and the officer who fired knew it could not be discharged a third time (it's his own 2-shot taser).

You just can't shoot an unarmed man in the back these days, I quit.

According to Howard, Rolfe knew that the taser Brooks held while running away was inoperable after having been fired twice.

https://www.alternet.org/2020/06/fired-atlanta-cop-who-shot-rayshard-brooks-twice-in-the-back-to-be-charged-with-murder/

Easy to say when you are not a cop. Worth listening to this CNN interview of a black cop discussing what cops are taught:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYXFhbUKElc
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on June 18, 2020, 04:50:49 PM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 18, 2020, 07:58:37 PM
Oh cmon. Criticism is what you get when you miss deadlines. When your project is delivered late. When you go over budget. When you mismanage your contractors.

When you have a history of brutalizing and murdering members of the public, you cannot expect public officials to suddenly be concerned about your personal safety.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 08:46:48 PM
You want anarchy? Welcome to hell.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/atlanta-mayor-acknoweldges-police-morale-is-down-ten-fold-begs-officers-to-return-to-work-after-walkout?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms acknowledged that police morale is “down ten-fold” in the city Wednesday night after dozens of officers reportedly called in sick or refused to leave their precincts

She also begged police to honor their commitment to their community and return to patrol.

Make your bed, now lay in it. Some of these governors pandered to the crazies, and now lie in an Olympic pool sized tub of shit. I will enjoy watching them try to swim their way out of it now. Seattle too.

I'm surprised the officers are protesting the murder charge. 

Their fellow officer shot dead a man known to be unarmed in the back as he was running away from them.  The victim had discharged the taser twice, and the officer who fired knew it could not be discharged a third time (it's his own 2-shot taser).

You just can't shoot an unarmed man in the back these days, I quit.

According to Howard, Rolfe knew that the taser Brooks held while running away was inoperable after having been fired twice.

https://www.alternet.org/2020/06/fired-atlanta-cop-who-shot-rayshard-brooks-twice-in-the-back-to-be-charged-with-murder/

Easy to say when you are not a cop. Worth listening to this CNN interview of a black cop discussing what cops are taught:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYXFhbUKElc

I saw that a day or two ago when it was initially put on CNN.  He says there was "nothing sadistic" about the way the officers behaved.  The officer who was charged with felony murder is captured on video kicking Brooks after the officer had shot him.  Nothing sadistic, what do you call kicking the man on the ground after having shot him twice?  Two minutes passed before they tried to help him after having shot him.

Prior to that video, CNN had another video where a former Philadelphia Police Chief and Police Commissioner was walking the viewer through it step by step.  He points out that the officers asked Brooks if he had a weapon, and he said no.  The officers then are seen patting Brooks down, so they knew he did not have a weapon.  Only the officer's taser, which had been fired twice and could not fire again.  This former Police Chief and Police Commissioner did not feel the officer was in any danger at the time he fired, and thus was unjustified in using deadly force.  Would you say to this former police chief what you said to me, "easy to say when you are not a cop?"

Rayshard Brooks was kicked, denied medical care
Department policy does not allow officers to fire a Taser at a fleeing suspect, much less shoot them, Howard said.
https://news.yahoo.com/rayshard-brooks-kicked-denied-medical-225319513.html


One of the officer's shots struck a witness' car while the witness was sitting in it. 

In a prior incident, Officer Rolff had been disciplined for improperly drawing his weapon.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 09:04:46 PM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/

25 years ago, you had to blow up a Federal building to be a terrorist.  That crazy right wing guy Timothy McVeigh.  Now you only need to be a vandal or an arsonist.

I know a guy who worked with me at Microsoft who is officially designated a domestic terrorist by the FBI for arson -- he was involved in a group who burned down animal research facilities.  Arsonists.

A terrorist targets civilians.  This is sticky because our country has targeted civilians in the past.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 18, 2020, 09:23:09 PM
https://apnews.com/7267abcb991ec5210f85aa03eb7ed433

Quote
The largest labor group in the Seattle area has expelled the city’s police union, saying the guild representing officers failed to address racism within its ranks.

The vote Wednesday night by the King County Labor Council to exclude the Seattle Police Officers Guild comes after weeks of protests in the city over police brutality and racism following the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

It’s also significant as the labor council is politically influential. Local elected leaders are reluctant to go against the umbrella group of more than 150 unions and 100,000 workers.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 19, 2020, 06:06:33 AM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/

Let's do what liberals do and change the definition of words to fit the agenda.

This isn't "domestic terrorism". We'll call this an "invitation to the block party."
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 19, 2020, 06:10:46 AM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/

Let's do what liberals do and change the definition of words to fit the agenda.

This isn't "domestic terrorism". We'll call this an "invitation to the block party."

Paul, the mayor is a Democrat.  Read the article.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: stahleyp on June 19, 2020, 06:14:00 AM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/

Let's do what liberals do and change the definition of words to fit the agenda.

This isn't "domestic terrorism". We'll call this an "invitation to the block party."

Paul, the mayor is a Democrat.  Read the article.

I know and I did.

The Mayor of Seattle called something a block party (that seems pretty similar). The Mayor of Olympia calls it domestic terrorism. I wonder what Durkan would have called the "block party" if it happened in her upscale neighborhood?

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 19, 2020, 06:30:53 AM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/

Let's do what liberals do and change the definition of words to fit the agenda.

This isn't "domestic terrorism". We'll call this an "invitation to the block party."

Paul, the mayor is a Democrat.  Read the article.

I know and I did.

The Mayor of Seattle called something a block party (that seems pretty similar). The Mayor of Olympia calls it domestic terrorism. I wonder what Durkan would have called the "block party" if it happened in her upscale neighborhood?

The Democratic mayor calls it terrorism when her front door is spray-painted.  Over-the-top drama.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 19, 2020, 06:47:39 AM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/

Let's do what liberals do and change the definition of words to fit the agenda.

This isn't "domestic terrorism". We'll call this an "invitation to the block party."

Paul, the mayor is a Democrat.  Read the article.

I know and I did.

The Mayor of Seattle called something a block party (that seems pretty similar). The Mayor of Olympia calls it domestic terrorism. I wonder what Durkan would have called the "block party" if it happened in her upscale neighborhood?

The Democratic mayor calls it terrorism when her front door is spray-painted.  Over-the-top drama.

The Democratic mayor and supporter of the LEFT is learning:  there is no way to satisfy the tyranny of the mob. Just ask Roebspierre.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 19, 2020, 07:01:15 AM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/

Let's do what liberals do and change the definition of words to fit the agenda.

This isn't "domestic terrorism". We'll call this an "invitation to the block party."

Paul, the mayor is a Democrat.  Read the article.

I know and I did.

The Mayor of Seattle called something a block party (that seems pretty similar). The Mayor of Olympia calls it domestic terrorism. I wonder what Durkan would have called the "block party" if it happened in her upscale neighborhood?

The Democratic mayor calls it terrorism when her front door is spray-painted.  Over-the-top drama.

The Democratic mayor and supporter of the LEFT is learning:  there is no way to satisfy the tyranny of the mob. Just ask Roebspierre.

I see, we'd have a revolution if she called it vandalism.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 19, 2020, 07:24:50 AM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/

Let's do what liberals do and change the definition of words to fit the agenda.

This isn't "domestic terrorism". We'll call this an "invitation to the block party."

Paul, the mayor is a Democrat.  Read the article.

I know and I did.

The Mayor of Seattle called something a block party (that seems pretty similar). The Mayor of Olympia calls it domestic terrorism. I wonder what Durkan would have called the "block party" if it happened in her upscale neighborhood?

The Democratic mayor calls it terrorism when her front door is spray-painted.  Over-the-top drama.

The Democratic mayor and supporter of the LEFT is learning:  there is no way to satisfy the tyranny of the mob. Just ask Roebspierre.

I see, we'd have a revolution if she called it vandalism.

The irony of the situation is just too perfect:  The supporters of her cause turn on her - and she is beside herself.

Like Gregmal says : you get what you asked for. But when it comes to your neighborhood, you are appalled.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 19, 2020, 02:12:51 PM
Not liking it so much when the shoe is on the other foot.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/democratic-mayor-calls-blm-domestic-terrorism-over-vandalism/

Let's do what liberals do and change the definition of words to fit the agenda.

This isn't "domestic terrorism". We'll call this an "invitation to the block party."

Paul, the mayor is a Democrat.  Read the article.

I know and I did.

The Mayor of Seattle called something a block party (that seems pretty similar). The Mayor of Olympia calls it domestic terrorism. I wonder what Durkan would have called the "block party" if it happened in her upscale neighborhood?

The Democratic mayor calls it terrorism when her front door is spray-painted.  Over-the-top drama.

The Democratic mayor and supporter of the LEFT is learning:  there is no way to satisfy the tyranny of the mob. Just ask Roebspierre.

I see, we'd have a revolution if she called it vandalism.

The irony of the situation is just too perfect:  The supporters of her cause turn on her - and she is beside herself.

Like Gregmal says : you get what you asked for. But when it comes to your neighborhood, you are appalled.

Do you think these vandals are supporters of her cause?  They want to defund the police, she does not.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 19, 2020, 02:19:07 PM
It has been reported that the Republican mayor of Tulsa notified the White House that protestors are heading to Tulsa to cause unrest in and around the rally.  An order for a curfew was given, and reportedly the White House asked for the order to be lifted when police reported that Trump supporters would not be able to camp out in the area due to the curfew.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tulsa-mayor-implements-federal-exclusion-zone-curfew-ahead-of-trumps-rally
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: mcliu on June 20, 2020, 11:10:23 AM
Summer of love:

https://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2020/06/20/homicide-investigation-inside-protest-area/
Homicide detectives are investigating following a fatal shooting that occurred early Saturday morning at 10th Avenue and East Pine Street. One man was declared deceased at the hospital and another male is being treated for life-threatening injuries.

On June 20th, at approximately 2:30 AM, East Precinct officers responded to a report of shots fired in Cal Anderson Park. This is inside the area referred to as the Capitol Hill Organized Protest (CHOP). Officers attempted to locate a shooting victim but were met by a violent crowd that prevented officers safe access to the victims. Officers were later informed that the victims, both males, had been transported to Harborview Medical Center by CHOP medics.
Officers responded to Harborview and were informed that one of the victims, a 19-year-old male, had died from injuries. The other victim, also a male, unknown age, remains in the hospital with life-threatening injuries.
The suspect or suspect(s) fled and are still at large. There is no description at this time.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: BG2008 on June 20, 2020, 12:08:02 PM
Pretty good summary from a New York Post article of an undercover inside the zone. 

https://nypost.com/2020/06/20/my-terrifying-5-day-stay-inside-seattles-autonomous-zone/

That shooting is a little crazy

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 20, 2020, 02:13:01 PM
Pretty good summary from a New York Post article of an undercover inside the zone. 

https://nypost.com/2020/06/20/my-terrifying-5-day-stay-inside-seattles-autonomous-zone/

That shooting is a little crazy

Nothin' but a Block Party!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 21, 2020, 02:59:55 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/seattle-council-member-who-encouraged-chop-claims-shooting-could-be-right-wing-attack-says-president-trump-bears-direct-responsibility?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

More lunacy from the block party.

Seattle Council Member Who Encouraged CHOP Claims Shooting Could Be ‘Right Wing’ Attack, Says President Trump ‘Bears Direct Responsibility’

Shockingly, Sawant also accuses Seattle mayor Jenny Durkan, who notably called CHOP a “block party” and a “summer of love” of being complicit in CHOP’s reputation for having a violent atmosphere.

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 22, 2020, 09:38:19 PM
Block party over.  No more luvin' this summer:

Seattle will move to dismantle 'CHOP' zone after shootings, mayor says

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-will-move-to-dismantle-chop-zone-after-shootings-mayor-says
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 29, 2020, 10:17:20 AM
More killing and shootings in the Utopian Hell created by CHAZ:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/chop-shooting-leaves-one-dead-one-in-critical-condition-as-protests-move-to-take-over-police-precinct

Let the "Summer of Love" continue.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 30, 2020, 07:00:55 AM
2 black teenagers shot, 1 dead in CHAZ.  This time by the security of the autonomous zone. This is crazy. They are now literally getting away with murder.  I though this was about black lives, what is going on?

There are also now law suits against the city from local businesses in the area.  They will win or they will leave.

What a joke you guys are for backing this.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 30, 2020, 08:18:34 AM
Who here is backing this?

Once can simultaneously criticize black community violence and police brutality at the same time.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on June 30, 2020, 11:49:36 AM
Brought to you by Black Lives Matter and Mayor "Summer of Love":

https://www.dailywire.com/news/father-of-black-teen-killed-in-chop-its-time-to-bring-in-the-national-guard?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Father Of Black Teen Killed In CHOP: It’s Time To Bring In The National Guard

Horace Lorenzo Anderson, the father of a 19-year-old black teen shot and killed inside Seattle’s Capitol Hill Occupied Protest (CHOP) is speaking out and demanding the city bring in the National Guard to help break up the increasingly violent protest, now in its third week.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 30, 2020, 07:57:10 PM
None of this should come as a surprise.  What the lefties were ignoring was the whole thing was founded on violence.  While you guys were making candle jokes you were implicitly backing this movement and you gave it the oxygen it needed. Now they are executing people.

This is a perfect case study of what life without police looks like. This is what you lefties want right?  Imagine no countries, it isn't hard to do.. yeah fuck right off. Communists running the show now from what I can tell and they are yelling, spitting, punching , kicking, shooting anyone who disagrees.

I will admit there is an upside to this whole thing. It exposes the masses to the reality of the far left.

Cue dem pivot to law and order.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on June 30, 2020, 08:46:28 PM
Your post illustrates exactly what keeps this issue so divisive: refusal or inability to understand to the opposing position.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 01, 2020, 02:56:07 AM
Your post illustrates exactly what keeps this issue so divisive: refusal or inability to understand to the opposing position.

No, that is not right at all and you know it.  You don't negotiate with extortionists, looters and criminals.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 01, 2020, 06:18:39 AM
Nobody is arguing for that.

There are very legitimate criticisms of systematic police brutality in society over the past 20 years.

One such proposed solution to 'defund police' involves (1) removing military weaponry and (2) reallocating resources to deal with non-violent cases from police to other public servants.

This is a reasonable solution.

However no_free_lunch's post does not address this at all. Instead, he lumps "the left" into this characterization: "This is what you lefties want right?  Imagine no countries, it isn't hard to do.. yeah fuck right off. Communists running the show now from what I can tell and they are yelling, spitting, punching , kicking, shooting anyone who disagrees."

Hence, my point about refusal or inability to understand to the opposing position.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: no_free_lunch on July 01, 2020, 07:26:01 AM
LC this no longer has anything to do with police brutality. Your failure to address Chaz itself, the entire point of this thread says it all.

Recent events at Chaz include targeting by protest of the mayor's home. Apparently the address is not public knowledge and one of the leftust city council gave it up.   The mayor was pissed that her little sanctuary was targeted.  Its all good until it affects Democrats personally.

I have read that today chaz was dismantled and police are clearing.  So in the end she signed the order and the police did their job.  This idiotic center left flirtation with the far left has been cancelled.

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 01, 2020, 07:37:16 AM
Quote
LC this no longer has anything to do with police brutality. Your failure to address Chaz itself, the entire point of this thread says it all.

Of course it does. This entire wave of protests and riots is centered around police brutality and police marginalization of weaker groups.

Now when the people behave brutally, you get upset and say "this is no longer about police".

This was exactly MLK's point which I echoed in another thread.

I do find it incredible how little we learn from history - either through naivete or outright refusal.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 01, 2020, 07:57:57 AM
Nobody is arguing for that.

There are very legitimate criticisms of systematic police brutality in society over the past 20 years.

One such proposed solution to 'defund police' involves (1) removing military weaponry and (2) reallocating resources to deal with non-violent cases from police to other public servants.

This is a reasonable solution.

However no_free_lunch's post does not address this at all. Instead, he lumps "the left" into this characterization: "This is what you lefties want right?  Imagine no countries, it isn't hard to do.. yeah fuck right off. Communists running the show now from what I can tell and they are yelling, spitting, punching , kicking, shooting anyone who disagrees."

Hence, my point about refusal or inability to understand to the opposing position.

What military equipment would you not want the police to have and why? This sounds more like an emotional talking point than a practical solution that would actually change anything. The majority of people shot by and abused by police are not abused with "military equipment". Nonsensical talking point equivalent to "assault rifle."

If you want to change the police you change two things.

1.) Accountability and legal protections
2.) Increased training

Instead of common sense we have the classic liberal approach to issues. Surface level analysis and surface level feel good solutions. Yes...lets ban choke holds. In fact, lets just ban touching in general. Police should now have to ask criminals to handcuff themselves. Let's have social workers be called first that way they can show up and ask the criminal if they have any intention of being violent.

Joe Biden: "We should be teaching police that when an UNARMED man approaches them WITH A KNIFE, they should shoot for the legs and not the heart."

How to handle a 911 call

1.) Guy is high on drugs out of his mind in a gas station.
2.) Gas station clerk calls 911 because the guy is acting crazy talking to himself and pacing around the room (no violence yet).
3.) Social worker arrives on the scene. It's a 5'4" 110lb girl with a degree in social work and big heart heart full of love.
4.) She tries to talk with the individual and say "everything is going to be okay, just come with me and we can get this taken care of."

What happens next?
- Guy flips out, beats the shit out of the girl  knocks over merchandise in the gas station, beats the clerk and runs off.
- Guy goes outside with the girl changes his mind, beats the shit out of her and runs off.
- Guy goes out to her car, punches her, steals her car, drives away high on drugs, and kills someone in an accident.
- Guy comes to his sense and says. "You know what, I am fucking crazy and I need to change my life. Yes, I will gladly come with you. " A few months later he graduates from MIT with a degree in Physics.

What's the better solution? (The one that already exists)
1.) Police show up
2.) They try to talk to the man to see what state of mind he is in.
3.) If he doesn't cooperate they submit him (with their newly enforced training), put him in the car, and bring him to prison to sober up or chill out for a bit.
4.) The next day once he is cleaned up they call a social worker to help him put the pieces together.

In 99% of cases it's better to have the police show up first. Anything else is just ignorant and puts others in unnecessary danger.


Split second decisions are not easy to make
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g&t=23s
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on July 01, 2020, 08:00:30 AM
So......

When a bunch of folks take over a National Park, and then, largely in a civil and peaceful manner, request to be left alone, we brand them white supremists, bring in the FBI, and go in guns blazing....

But when a bunch of hooligans violently take over a city center, use those premises to distribute drugs and utilize violence to enforce their own little version of utopia, and viciously target people who they dont like/disagree with, in many cases with violence.... its peace love and happiness bro!

Amazing.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: winjitsu on July 01, 2020, 10:55:38 AM
https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/protests/seattle-police-capitol-hill-chop-chaz/281-6253a20a-127b-4cd7-93dd-43f3f008afd0

CHAZ retaken this morning
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: rb on July 01, 2020, 11:04:55 AM
I love how they went there on their bikes.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 01, 2020, 12:02:24 PM
Quote
What military equipment would you not want the police to have and why? This sounds more like an emotional talking point than a practical solution that would actually change anything. The majority of people shot by and abused by police are not abused with "military equipment". Nonsensical talking point equivalent to "assault rifle."

How about we start with tear gas and armored vehicles and go from there.

The point is not that the cops are out leveling streets with grenade launchers. But when your department gets 10 free grenade launchers, anti-mine vehicles, submachine guns, long range sniper rifles, heavy body armor, night vision tools, motion detection tools, grenades... it changes the psychology and culture of the entire group (which is the root cause of this problem in the first place!!!)

Quote
Instead of common sense we have the classic liberal approach to issues. Surface level analysis and surface level feel good solutions. Yes...lets ban choke holds. In fact, lets just ban touching in general. Police should now have to ask criminals to handcuff themselves. Let's have social workers be called first that way they can show up and ask the criminal if they have any intention of being violent.
I know you're a deep thinker and the "classic liberals" are not.

And since you're so interested in going beyond "surface level analysis", perhaps you should get off the slippery slope of mischaracterizing the opposing argument from rethinking chokeholds to: "let's ban touching in general" "let's ask the criminal to handcuff themselves".

Unless you just want to use that high powered military equipment to take down a few of these:

(https://wp-media.patheos.com/blogs/sites/321/2014/01/StrawMan2.jpg)
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 01, 2020, 12:47:24 PM
How about we start with tear gas and armored vehicles and go from there.

The point is not that the cops are out leveling streets with grenade launchers. But when your department gets 10 free grenade launchers, anti-mine vehicles, submachine guns, long range sniper rifles, heavy body armor, night vision tools, motion detection tools, grenades... it changes the psychology and culture of the entire group (which is the root cause of this problem in the first place!!!)

I know you're a deep thinker and the "classic liberals" are not.

And since you're so interested in going beyond "surface level analysis", perhaps you should get off the slippery slope of mischaracterizing the opposing argument from rethinking chokeholds to: "let's ban touching in general" "let's ask the criminal to handcuff themselves".

Unless you just want to use that high powered military equipment to take down a few of these:

Rethinking chokeholds and replace it with what? Judo (ever hear of it?) is a non-lethal method of subduing individuals. Remove these methods and you will have police resort to more violent methods which cause more violent reactions from criminals. The issue isn't the methods and it isn't the equipment. It's the training. I discussed this with some former spec ops guys I know and that was their opinion on it as well.

Do I think restrictions on what police should be extremely strict? Absolutely. I think they should be held accountable. I think what equipment police are allowed to use should also be highly regulated and left for very specific situations. I think their justifications for things have gotten too lenient.

I can already see it now. We strip police of their gear, we go too far with liability issues and make the police extremely vulnerable to lawsuits, prosecution, etc. Then say we get a school shooting, a terrorist attack, or some heavily armed bank robbers. People will be calling for the heads of the police because they didn't respond in a meaningful way because they don't have the equipment, they don't have the training, and they are terrified of doing anything because their life will be torn apart.

It's feel good solutions done in some visible manner to make themselves and others feel like they're actually doing something. Exactly why the Dems rejected Tim Scott's bill. They haven't mentioned Justin Amash's bill which was the first bill drafted to revoke qualified immunity!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: KJP on July 01, 2020, 12:56:42 PM

In 99% of cases it's better to have the police show up first. Anything else is just ignorant and puts others in unnecessary danger.


"99%" seems quite high.  I realize you're talking about 911 calls, but thinking more broadly at the role of the police, do we really need an armed person with the power of arrest to have primary responsibility or be among the first responders to any the following:

1) Car accidents
2) Enforcement of all rules of the road  (traffic stops represent a large percentage of police interactions -- see, e.g., pg. 8 https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf)
3) Drug overdoses

These are just three examples.  There are others.  The police have a very difficult job.  Why not hand off these categories (among others) to somebody else so we can have fewer armed police who would perhaps be better trained and better paid?  I realize this may not be particularly feasible in smaller or rural communities where the sheriff serves as a jack-of-all-trades.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 01, 2020, 01:08:31 PM
On chokeholds I could be convinced either way. I can imagine circumstances where it is useful, also circumstances where it is unnecessary. Perhaps there are better ways to subdue people, I am sure the great minds in law enforcement could think of something.  ::)

On military gear - I disagree. In fact I think the only feel good aspect here is the authoritarian comfort some people feel knowing their "big brother" has the biggest and baddest guns to protect them.

Ultimately I'd rather have police equipped for traffic stops, domestic violence calls, etc. rather than equipped for insurrections, terrorist assaults, a Russ-Chino invasion, etc. A handgun, baton, tazer, BODYCAM, and maybe a shotgun or rifle in the trunk.

If you've ever worked in a bar before - the best bouncers are not the 250 lb meathead hells angel ex-linebackers who can fight grizzly bears. They're a group of 180 lb dudes who are better at de-escalating situations rather than overpowering them. That is the mentality that the police need.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on July 01, 2020, 01:10:25 PM
Another major part of the attitude problem is that when you go to court, if all it is, is their word vs yours, you're toast. And they know it. Further, thats why when they fuck up, they cover it up by saying you did something that was subjective. IE failure to obey instruction. Its the system thats fucked, but if everyone wants to keep focusing on racism, thats fine. It won't solve a damn thing. You can remove 100% of racist cops, and youll still have the problem of police brutality and abuse of power.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 01, 2020, 01:12:54 PM

In 99% of cases it's better to have the police show up first. Anything else is just ignorant and puts others in unnecessary danger.


"99%" seems quite high.  I realize you're talking about 911 calls, but thinking more broadly at the role of the police, do we really need an armed person with the power of arrest to have primary responsibility or be among the first responders to any the following:

1) Car accidents
2) Enforcement of all rules of the road  (traffic stops represent a large percentage of police interactions -- see, e.g., pg. 8 https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf)
3) Drug overdoses

These are just three examples.  There are others.  The police have a very difficult job.  Why not hand off these categories (among others) to somebody else so we can have fewer armed police who would perhaps be better trained and better paid?  I realize this may not be particularly feasible in smaller or rural communities where the sheriff serves as a jack-of-all-trades.

Literally all three of the things you listed police play vital roles in.

Car Accidents - Why did the accident happen? Who will secure the area and be the first to re-route and direct traffic? Who will provide medical treatment before EMT can arrive? Who will run the plates to see who the individuals are? Who will investigate other drives to see what they saw? Who will prevent someone from speeding off after someone was killed in an accident? Who will deal with the junkie hopped up on drugs after they hop out of the car.

Traffic stops - Who will look out for cars which are on suspected criminal lists? Who will pull over dangerous/reckless drivers? Who will check out the passengers in vehicles and see if they are sex traffickers or individuals with warrants out?

Drug Overdose - Who will gather evidence? Who will secure the scene to make sure there is no other threats near by or in the house? Who will be the first to get kids out of a house before it's known if a threat is there? Who will be the first to try and provide assistance?

There is a myriad of more examples for each of those....
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 01, 2020, 01:19:55 PM
On chokeholds I could be convinced either way. I can imagine circumstances where it is useful, also circumstances where it is unnecessary. Perhaps there are better ways to subdue people, I am sure the great minds in law enforcement could think of something.  ::)

On military gear - I disagree. In fact I think the only feel good aspect here is the authoritarian comfort some people feel knowing their "big brother" has the biggest and baddest guns to protect them.

Ultimately I'd rather have police equipped for traffic stops, domestic violence calls, etc. rather than equipped for insurrections, terrorist assaults, a Russ-Chino invasion, etc. A handgun, baton, tazer, BODYCAM, and maybe a shotgun or rifle in the trunk.

If you've ever worked in a bar before - the best bouncers are not the 250 lb meathead hells angel ex-linebackers who can fight grizzly bears. They're a group of 180 lb dudes who are better at de-escalating situations rather than overpowering them. That is the mentality that the police need.

I don't like authoritarian government bodies. But I still understand the purpose of specific gear.

The gear you listed that you would like police to have literally covers 99% of what your average cop has. Let me know when you see a cop sitting in a humvee with a .50 cal racking up traffic tickets.

How many kids get shot on spring break when partying on the beach? police often deescalate situations and saying that isn't their first approach is factually wrong.

Most of what you advocate for already exists. The issue (as Greg alluded to) is on the post arrest prosecution, justification of force, abuse of power, and hiding behind the union frontier.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 01, 2020, 02:49:54 PM
I'm not saying cops are out there on top of Humvees. I'll say it again:

The point is not that the cops are out leveling streets with grenade launchers.

Almost every video of police brutality during the past month has shown cops heavily body armored, multiple guns (both lethal and LTL), supported by armored cars, in urban anti-terrorist formations, dispensing anti-crowd pepper spray/tear gas...literally as if they are storming Fallujah.

So as you correctly mention, these are obviously not daily-use items. But police have access to them - they are literally gifted to them by the federal gov't & military. In my opinion this is wrong and it contributes to the problems with police culture.

Successful police are a part of the community, not a military force imposed upon the community.

Oh and I agree with your last two points. Specifically on de-escalation: psychologically it's a lot easier to do that on a beach during spring break, than at 1AM busting down to the door to a "heavily armored dealer" which oops turns out to be a family with a baby but now the dog won't stop barking and the kid is crying and screaming and the husband is confused and angry why 8 SWAT members are pointing ARs at him and his family and shit someone moved!!! POP POP now they're dead. Just saying...
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 01, 2020, 02:56:37 PM
I'm not saying cops are out there on top of Humvees. I'll say it again:

The point is not that the cops are out leveling streets with grenade launchers.

Almost every video of police brutality during the past month has shown cops heavily body armored, multiple guns (both lethal and LTL), supported by armored cars, in urban anti-terrorist formations, dispensing anti-crowd pepper spray/tear gas...literally as if they are storming Fallujah.

So as you correctly mention, these are obviously not daily-use items. But police have access to them - they are literally gifted to them by the federal gov't & military. In my opinion this is wrong and it contributes to the problems with police culture.

Successful police are a part of the community, not a military force imposed upon the community.

So in your mind what should the police be wearing and using when dealing with non peaceful protesters  who are looting and burning down businesses?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: KJP on July 01, 2020, 03:28:03 PM

Literally all three of the things you listed police play vital roles in.

Car Accidents - Why did the accident happen? Who will secure the area and be the first to re-route and direct traffic? Who will provide medical treatment before EMT can arrive? Who will run the plates to see who the individuals are? Who will investigate other drives to see what they saw? Who will prevent someone from speeding off after someone was killed in an accident? Who will deal with the junkie hopped up on drugs after they hop out of the car.

Traffic stops - Who will look out for cars which are on suspected criminal lists? Who will pull over dangerous/reckless drivers? Who will check out the passengers in vehicles and see if they are sex traffickers or individuals with warrants out?

Drug Overdose - Who will gather evidence? Who will secure the scene to make sure there is no other threats near by or in the house? Who will be the first to get kids out of a house before it's known if a threat is there? Who will be the first to try and provide assistance?

There is a myriad of more examples for each of those....

Interesting.  I look through your examples and think they prove my point.  For example, "securing an area" "re-directed traffic" and providing emergency medical assistance can all be done by people who are unarmed and don't have the power of arrest.  Similarly, you don't need a gun and the power of arrest to pull someone over for reckless driving.  We just have different views about the purpose and role of armed individuals with the power of arrest. 
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 01, 2020, 03:39:29 PM
Well, the best way to deal with riots is to not screw up so badly that an entire population is taking to the streets because of you. Perhaps the realization that your actions as a bad cop may result in a completely innocent man's store being burnt and looted.

An ounce of prevention sort of thing. Ties into what Greg has said about accountability. The failures of government and police departments result in that man's store burning.

Individual bad actors? Frankly no different than the tools I mentioned above. Maybe minimal body armor. This is the grey area where, yes, I'd rather have cops vulnerable and yes, cops may be at risk of harm. Part of the job.

But what you don't want is this:

(https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2F7afe9d17-394b-4511-8abb-5b8c74656782.jpg?fit=scale-down&source=next&width=700)

Real riot control? This is what the national guard (pictured above) is for. And frankly (and thankfully) these have historically been incredibly rare events. Also - the key here is controlling riots (protecting key buildings, mass violence, etc.). The role is not to destroy or break riots. Minimize damage and work with leaders to defuse.

The other shameful aspect is how many elected leaders cowered away and did not put themselves in the middle to attempt to defuse these situations. Easy to say for sure - but again this is part of the job.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Jurgis on July 01, 2020, 03:43:18 PM

Literally all three of the things you listed police play vital roles in.

Car Accidents - Why did the accident happen? Who will secure the area and be the first to re-route and direct traffic? Who will provide medical treatment before EMT can arrive? Who will run the plates to see who the individuals are? Who will investigate other drives to see what they saw? Who will prevent someone from speeding off after someone was killed in an accident? Who will deal with the junkie hopped up on drugs after they hop out of the car.

Traffic stops - Who will look out for cars which are on suspected criminal lists? Who will pull over dangerous/reckless drivers? Who will check out the passengers in vehicles and see if they are sex traffickers or individuals with warrants out?

Drug Overdose - Who will gather evidence? Who will secure the scene to make sure there is no other threats near by or in the house? Who will be the first to get kids out of a house before it's known if a threat is there? Who will be the first to try and provide assistance?

There is a myriad of more examples for each of those....

Interesting.  I look through your examples and think they prove my point.  For example, "securing an area" "re-directed traffic" and providing emergency medical assistance can all be done by people who are unarmed and don't have the power of arrest.  Similarly, you don't need a gun and the power of arrest to pull someone over for reckless driving.  We just have different views about the purpose and role of armed individuals with the power of arrest.

In US if you call 911 with medical emergency, they send ambulance, firefighters, and cops. Maybe not everywhere, but at least where I lived in MA. I could give reasons why this makes sense in some extreme situations (what if person lost consciousness and medical responders have to break into the house), but in huge percentage of cases, this is complete waste of resources. Oh, and then they send you a bill that your insurance may or may not cover. For ambulance, firefighters, and cops.  ::)

Lesson #1: if you're poor, don't call 911.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 01, 2020, 03:47:29 PM

Literally all three of the things you listed police play vital roles in.

Car Accidents - Why did the accident happen? Who will secure the area and be the first to re-route and direct traffic? Who will provide medical treatment before EMT can arrive? Who will run the plates to see who the individuals are? Who will investigate other drives to see what they saw? Who will prevent someone from speeding off after someone was killed in an accident? Who will deal with the junkie hopped up on drugs after they hop out of the car.

Traffic stops - Who will look out for cars which are on suspected criminal lists? Who will pull over dangerous/reckless drivers? Who will check out the passengers in vehicles and see if they are sex traffickers or individuals with warrants out?

Drug Overdose - Who will gather evidence? Who will secure the scene to make sure there is no other threats near by or in the house? Who will be the first to get kids out of a house before it's known if a threat is there? Who will be the first to try and provide assistance?

There is a myriad of more examples for each of those....

Interesting.  I look through your examples and think they prove my point.  For example, "securing an area" "re-directed traffic" and providing emergency medical assistance can all be done by people who are unarmed and don't have the power of arrest.  Similarly, you don't need a gun and the power of arrest to pull someone over for reckless driving.  We just have different views about the purpose and role of armed individuals with the power of arrest.

LOL what?

So you want hall monitors? What exactly happens when you pull someone over and they have a gun, a felony with a warrant, drugs, etc?

“Hold on sir, I don’t have a gun or any ability to stop you from leaving so let me call the police.”

Complete nonsense....you should go educate yourself before you come up with any more ridiculous ideas.

Here is you want police to act. https://youtu.be/DGIpAweGQGQ

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 01, 2020, 03:55:06 PM
Well, the best way to deal with riots is to not screw up so badly that an entire population is taking to the streets because of you. Perhaps the realization that your actions as a bad cop may result in a completely innocent man's store being burnt and looted.

An ounce of prevention sort of thing. Ties into what Greg has said about accountability. The failures of government and police departments result in that man's store burning.

Individual bad actors? Frankly no different than the tools I mentioned above. Maybe minimal body armor. This is the grey area where, yes, I'd rather have cops vulnerable and yes, cops may be at risk of harm. Part of the job.

But what you don't want is this:

(https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2F7afe9d17-394b-4511-8abb-5b8c74656782.jpg?fit=scale-down&source=next&width=700)

Real riot control? This is what the national guard (pictured above) is for. And frankly (and thankfully) these have historically been incredibly rare events. Also - the key here is controlling riots (protecting key buildings, mass violence, etc.). The role is not to destroy or break riots. Minimize damage and work with leaders to defuse.

The other shameful aspect is how many elected leaders cowered away and did not put themselves in the middle to attempt to defuse these situations. Easy to say for sure - but again this is part of the job.

And if there was the KKK burning and looting black neighborhoods you would still “prefer to have the police vulnerable”. Or is it just for the people’s opinion that you support? Protesting is allowed, rioting is not. That’s the law. When a protest becomes a riot, by federal and state law police have every authority to break it up. When they show up in your neighborhood, be sure to tell the 911 operator that you would like a cop with flip flops, a Hawaiian shirt

Anddd I’m exiting this conversation stage left.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 01, 2020, 04:34:05 PM
I don’t care if it’s BLM KKK Antifa or whomever. They are all citizens with the right to protest freely and should not be under military-esque supervision in their own country and community. What I wrote in my post is what seems reasonable to me regardless of what ideology is being represented.

The police have used up their goodwill, if you believe they deserve benefit of the doubt then they need to earn it.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 01, 2020, 05:00:36 PM
I don’t care if it’s BLM KKK Antifa or whomever. They are all citizens with the right to protest freely and should not be under military-esque supervision in their own country and community. What I wrote in my post is what seems reasonable to me regardless of what ideology is being represented.

The police have used up their goodwill, if you believe they deserve benefit of the doubt then they need to earn it.

Protesting is not rioting. As I said, once a protest becomes a riot. Police are obligated to break it up. You guys always like to talk about limits of the Amendments. Well your right to peacefully assemble goes out the door when you begin burning down businesses and destroying property both public and private.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: no_free_lunch on July 01, 2020, 05:21:58 PM
I don’t care if it’s BLM KKK Antifa or whomever. They are all citizens with the right to protest freely and should not be under military-esque supervision in their own country and community. What I wrote in my post is what seems reasonable to me regardless of what ideology is being represented.

The police have used up their goodwill, if you believe they deserve benefit of the doubt then they need to earn it.

Well, the democratic mayor of Seattle decided they still need to play a role. So even Democrats don't buy your line.

If this was about militarization of police , why are there sympathy protests in Canada and UK too?

If this was about black lives why don't we look at the lives lost within CHAZ. Oh right, they did and they called it he police back in.

Are you going to acknowledge the difference between a riot and a protest that castanza made? That was really clear but you chose to pretend there are only protests to preserve your narrative.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: KJP on July 01, 2020, 06:07:51 PM

Complete nonsense....you should go educate yourself before you come up with any more ridiculous ideas.


Thank you for reminding me why the politics forum is a waste of time.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 01, 2020, 06:47:22 PM
Quote
Protesting is not rioting. As I said, once a protest becomes a riot. Police are obligated to break it up. You guys always like to talk about limits of the Amendments. Well your right to peacefully assemble goes out the door when you begin burning down businesses and destroying property both public and private.

Quote
Are you going to acknowledge the difference between a riot and a protest that castanza made? That was really clear but you chose to pretend there are only protests to preserve your narrative.

I guess these folks must have been peacefully assembling, kneeling with their hands up, but with the intent to riot:
https://twitter.com/Potatron1000/status/1267144636788805637

Oh, hell. I guess I'll post this again:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gu5yru/us_security_forces_hunt_down_journalists_covering/fsgk2y2/

I don't think I'm the one here having difficulty distinguishing between a protest and a riot...

Now in Seattle, I think the mayor/governor should have called up the national guard to clear out CHAZ.
I'll make the point a third time (maybe that's the charm): police should be part of the community. They should not be equipped nor expected to manage a literal insurrection. That is the national guard's job.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Cigarbutt on July 01, 2020, 07:39:28 PM
Complete nonsense....you should go educate yourself before you come up with any more ridiculous ideas.
Thank you for reminding me why the politics forum is a waste of time.
The Politics forum has little value but posts such as yours are worth reading.
In my jurisdiction, there is a simple form (used to be in glove box now online) that has existed for a while whereby car accidents (no significant injuries, limited physical damage) don't require calling the police. It's worked quite well over the years.
Also, there have been pilot projects where police work is supplemented or replaced by social workers when certain categories of drug-related incidents are reported and the results are interesting.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 01, 2020, 07:58:40 PM

Complete nonsense....you should go educate yourself before you come up with any more ridiculous ideas.


Thank you for reminding me why the politics forum is a waste of time.

Well, when you don’t even address the examples I give and then say they “prove your point” it’s not really even a discussion. What you’re proposing doesn’t make sense. Police work in tandem with many other emergency units. Police are often first in the scene because they are readily available. Traffic stops which you say are the majority of work also account for the majority of incidents cops encounter. So how exactly do you use a “unit” with no authority to arrest and no firearm to....what? Write a ticket?  And then tell the known fellow to either wait here to be arrested or to go on their way. Logistically it just doesn’t make sense. It’s not practical and would be far less efficient and more expensive. Plus in the US a large percentage (probably most) fire departments are volunteer. They don’t have the resources or logistics to be on scene for every incident. EMTs are often not very heavily staffed either.

Aren’t you a lawyer? You should see if you can get a ride along with local law enforcement.

All I’m saying is, people and society like to be couch cushion quarterbacks when it comes to police. The job is far more difficult mentally and physically than most would think. I’m not saying this because I have friends who are cops. But I hear their daily stories and all the shit they deal with.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 01, 2020, 08:31:17 PM
Quote
All I’m saying is, people and society like to be couch cushion quarterbacks when it comes to police. The job is far more difficult mentally and physically than most would think. I’m not saying this because I have friends who are cops. But I hear their daily stories and all the shit they deal with.

I disagree with this. Certain parts of their job are incredibly dangerous. And certain parts are incredibly "easy".

This is why one proposed solution is to carve out the really tough stuff (things like riot control) and/or the really "easy" stuff (pseudo social work) to different groups.

Narrowing their scope of work allows you to equip and train them for a more accurately defined role in society. This will give more predictable (safer) outcomes. And further, because their role will be more strictly defined, it will be easier to judge when POs behave with excessive force - again going to the point Greg (and others) have made on accountability.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: no_free_lunch on July 01, 2020, 09:28:15 PM
Quote
Protesting is not rioting. As I said, once a protest becomes a riot. Police are obligated to break it up. You guys always like to talk about limits of the Amendments. Well your right to peacefully assemble goes out the door when you begin burning down businesses and destroying property both public and private.

Quote
Are you going to acknowledge the difference between a riot and a protest that castanza made? That was really clear but you chose to pretend there are only protests to preserve your narrative.

I guess these folks must have been peacefully assembling, kneeling with their hands up, but with the intent to riot:
https://twitter.com/Potatron1000/status/1267144636788805637

Oh, hell. I guess I'll post this again:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gu5yru/us_security_forces_hunt_down_journalists_covering/fsgk2y2/

I don't think I'm the one here having difficulty distinguishing between a protest and a riot...

Now in Seattle, I think the mayor/governor should have called up the national guard to clear out CHAZ.
I'll make the point a third time (maybe that's the charm): police should be part of the community. They should not be equipped nor expected to manage a literal insurrection. That is the national guard's job.

I would have to know more about these peaceful protests.  It is very one sided with no context.  I know the solution isn't to get rid of the police.  However, if you have a more nuanced approach, replace 10 or 15% of budget with social workers maybe that.   It's like a business, there is room for efficiencies.

None of this in any way justifies attempting to burn down a police precinct or to physically assaulting police officers.

If you want to send in the national guard for this type of thing, I commend you.  However you side with Trump on that.  The issue is that the mayor refused to move on this for quite some time. Only when she was physically feeling threatened did it happen.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on July 02, 2020, 12:12:39 AM
Quote
All I’m saying is, people and society like to be couch cushion quarterbacks when it comes to police. The job is far more difficult mentally and physically than most would think. I’m not saying this because I have friends who are cops. But I hear their daily stories and all the shit they deal with.

I disagree with this. Certain parts of their job are incredibly dangerous. And certain parts are incredibly "easy".

This is why one proposed solution is to carve out the really tough stuff (things like riot control) and/or the really "easy" stuff (pseudo social work) to different groups.

Narrowing their scope of work allows you to equip and train them for a more accurately defined role in society. This will give more predictable (safer) outcomes. And further, because their role will be more strictly defined, it will be easier to judge when POs behave with excessive force - again going to the point Greg (and others) have made on accountability.

I think what you are getting wrong is that you are conflating easy and difficult within the context of a police officers job. For some, IE the ones like I knew well, that patrol suburban neighborhoods, on their worst days, are breaking up high school keggers or getting domestic violence calls because someone raised their voice. For others, continuously surveilling drug dens or staking out a known crime scene, it is terribly hard. It is not easy and hard. Some, like the suburb patrols, its always easy. For others, like the inner city cops, its always hard and dangerous. Both should not be equal.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 02, 2020, 03:57:09 AM

Video of scum Black Lives Matter gang shooting into an SUV

Provo Police Arrest Black Lives Matter Agitator Who Allegedly Shot SUV Driver

https://amgreatness.com/2020/07/01/provo-police-arrest-black-lives-matter-agitator-who-allegedly-shot-suv-driver/
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 02, 2020, 08:22:24 AM
Moron CNN anchor makes a fool of himself defending Black Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yuHKYCcvmQ

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on July 02, 2020, 08:29:58 AM

Video of scum Black Lives Matter gang shooting into an SUV

Provo Police Arrest Black Lives Matter Agitator Who Allegedly Shot SUV Driver

https://amgreatness.com/2020/07/01/provo-police-arrest-black-lives-matter-agitator-who-allegedly-shot-suv-driver/

Black lives matter but the only people getting killed at CHAZ were........
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 02, 2020, 09:56:16 AM
I think what you are getting wrong is that you are conflating easy and difficult within the context of a police officers job. For some, IE the ones like I knew well, that patrol suburban neighborhoods, on their worst days, are breaking up high school keggers or getting domestic violence calls because someone raised their voice. For others, continuously surveilling drug dens or staking out a known crime scene, it is terribly hard. It is not easy and hard. Some, like the suburb patrols, its always easy. For others, like the inner city cops, its always hard and dangerous. Both should not be equal.

"Soldiering" i.e. SWAT teams, riot control, should not be under the purview of a local PD.

Urban policing is not 100% shootouts with dealers and gangbangers - and many times has to deal with completely non-violent calls such as homelessness (usually mental instability which PD is certainly not equipped for) and drug addiction.

Hell, you can mix social work with policing. Throw a few social workers in some squad cars to respond to "lighter touch" calls.

And if you want to talk about accountability - who is holding Karen accountable when she calls the PD for a black guy who she swears looks like he has a gun?

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on July 02, 2020, 11:38:42 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/07/02/teen-shot-dead-in-seattles-chop-was-chased-after-stealing-jeep/

Tragic. The teenager killed happened to have just assaulted someone and stole their car, at knife point. Was heading to CHAZ as a "safe place" to hide. He of course didn't claim to have any connection to the known gang members, who also happened to be there. The joke continues.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 02, 2020, 03:25:23 PM
"We are trained Marxists"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZe5qm8dN-w

Hey, at least she's honest.

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 02, 2020, 03:57:29 PM
Geez - now Black Lives Matter is going after the Jews:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-black-lives-matter-protesters-shout-israel-we-know-you-you-murder-children-too

'Black Lives Matter Protesters Shout ‘Israel, We Know You, You Murder Children, Too’

Al Sharpton is a virulent Anti-Semite, so I guess no one should be surprised.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 02, 2020, 04:20:35 PM
Israel =/= the Jews
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 02, 2020, 04:45:41 PM
Israel =/= the Jews


Ok, got your point.

BLM has a problem with the Israelis
Sharpton has a problem with NY Jews.

happy now?

Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 02, 2020, 05:04:03 PM
Oh, man - talk about the ultimate reality distortion field:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/despite-violence-seattle-mayor-durkan-praises-chop-zone-we-have-had-incredibly-peaceful-demonstrations?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

'Despite Violence, Seattle Mayor Durkan Praises CHOP Zone: ‘We Have Had Incredibly Peaceful Demonstrations’

She must have taken her lessons from Adam Schiff...
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: winjitsu on July 02, 2020, 05:05:45 PM
Israel =/= the Jews

Ok, got your point.

BLM has a problem with the Israelis


cubsfan, you're missing out on this gem of a quote from that article you posted

Quote
The Black Lives Matter movement should embrace solidarity from Jews. There have been calls for violence against us from prominent BLM supporters with no official condemnation. Now from the official UK BLM account, we hear the lie that fighting antisemitism has ‘gagged’ legitimate debate. Zionism is the movement for the self-determination of Jews. The right to the ‘self-determination of peoples’ is universal and enshrined in Article 1 of the UN charter. So-called ‘anti-Zionism’ exclusively denies Jews that universal right and is therefore antisemitic.”
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 02, 2020, 06:45:28 PM
Israel =/= the Jews


Ok, got your point.

BLM has a problem with the Israelis
Sharpton has a problem with NY Jews.

happy now?
Happy? Always.

In this case, I can understand criticism of Israel. Jews, not so much. It’s an important distinction.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 03, 2020, 06:54:46 AM
Israel =/= the Jews


Ok, got your point.

BLM has a problem with the Israelis
Sharpton has a problem with NY Jews.

happy now?
Happy? Always.

In this case, I can understand criticism of Israel. Jews, not so much. It’s an important distinction.

Happy? Me too!!   Happy 4th to you BTW.

Perhaps a nuance to consider seriously:  If you are anti-Zionism - is that racist or bigoted?    If not, then what is it exactly?

I would suggest to you that Al Sharpton and Black Lives Matter are the same thing.

Perhaps re-read the comments from Winjitsu....
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ShaiDardashti on July 03, 2020, 09:52:34 AM
Israel =/= the Jews

Is this song about Israel or about Jews? (or both.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BergenBelsenHatikva.ogg
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 03, 2020, 10:10:49 AM
Not sure what the confusion is here, it’s one thing to despise a country for its actions vs. despising it’s people.

Many folks across the world hate America for its international policy (war, war, and more war!). That doesn’t mean they hate Americans. Happy 4th!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: no_free_lunch on July 03, 2020, 11:36:53 AM
I have to agree with LC on this at least at a very theoretical level.

If we are put in a position where we cannot criticize a nuclear armed state then that isn't much different than the censorship of the left.  Don't get me wrong, I support Israel and it has caused me problems in the past with the left but the country is not above criticism.

I just don't understand the amount of attention this country of, what 10 million?, attracts.  Why is there so much focus on it.  Is it related to oil?

I do agree that there is outright anti-semitism in these far left groups.  That needs to be held to account.  However, you kind of weaken the counter-attack if you use examples of anti-israeli sentiment.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: ShaiDardashti on July 03, 2020, 12:26:38 PM
@LC and @no_free_lunch -- While I don't entirely agree, very much appreciate and respect both your perspectives and so that the thread remains on topic, I'll go back to lurking, as has been the case for the past 16 or so years...
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 04, 2020, 09:32:39 AM
Who would have thunk??

https://www.city-journal.org/ferguson-effect-inner-cities

The unwinding of law and order in our cities has happened with stunning speed.

In Minneapolis, shootings have more than doubled this year compared to last.

New York City’s homicide rate is at a five-year high; the number of shooting victims was up over 42 percent through June 21 compared with the same period in 2019.

Milwaukee’s homicides have increased 132 percent. “In 25 years, I’ve never seen it like this,” a Milwaukee police inspector

So far this year, more people have been killed in Baltimore than at this point in 2019, which ended with the highest homicide rate on record for that city

The victims in these shootings are overwhelmingly black. So far this year, 78 percent of all homicide victims in Chicago are black, though blacks are less than a third of the population.

While 307 people have been murdered this year in Chicago, the Chicago police have killed three suspects, all armed and dangerous.



Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: no_free_lunch on July 04, 2020, 09:43:59 AM
Protesters have been blocking the I5 sporadically for weeks. Predictably it resulted in a serious accident last night.  I don't understand what is accomplished by this type of "protest".  I'm all in favor of peaceful protests but when you block a highway you endanger people's lives.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/hl0pct/two_seattle_protestors_getting_run_over_by_a_car/
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on July 04, 2020, 10:26:23 AM
Not sure what the confusion is here, it’s one thing to despise a country for its actions vs. despising it’s people.

Many folks across the world hate America for its international policy (war, war, and more war!). That doesn’t mean they hate Americans. Happy 4th!

Please dont ever go vacationing in Iran!
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on July 04, 2020, 10:31:14 AM
Protesters have been blocking the I5 sporadically for weeks. Predictably it resulted in a serious accident last night.  I don't understand what is accomplished by this type of "protest".  I'm all in favor of peaceful protests but when you block a highway you endanger people's lives.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/hl0pct/two_seattle_protestors_getting_run_over_by_a_car/

When I was little, my parents taught me not to play in the street. Whether a failure at parenting, or a failure of common sense, these people are idiots. I wouldn't say they "deserved" to get hit by a car, but, one can certainly make the case that loafing around on a major highway is "asking for it".
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Gregmal on July 04, 2020, 10:49:01 AM
Who would have thunk??

https://www.city-journal.org/ferguson-effect-inner-cities

The unwinding of law and order in our cities has happened with stunning speed.

In Minneapolis, shootings have more than doubled this year compared to last.

New York City’s homicide rate is at a five-year high; the number of shooting victims was up over 42 percent through June 21 compared with the same period in 2019.

Milwaukee’s homicides have increased 132 percent. “In 25 years, I’ve never seen it like this,” a Milwaukee police inspector

So far this year, more people have been killed in Baltimore than at this point in 2019, which ended with the highest homicide rate on record for that city

The victims in these shootings are overwhelmingly black. So far this year, 78 percent of all homicide victims in Chicago are black, though blacks are less than a third of the population.

While 307 people have been murdered this year in Chicago, the Chicago police have killed three suspects, all armed and dangerous.

I dont have the time to look it up, but can you tell me historically, IE the last decade or two, how those cities vote? Maybe its time they start voting for the other party. Nothing to lose at this point.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 06, 2020, 08:38:18 AM
Not sure what the confusion is here, it’s one thing to despise a country for its actions vs. despising it’s people.

Many folks across the world hate America for its international policy (war, war, and more war!). That doesn’t mean they hate Americans. Happy 4th!

Looks like some of these losers hate Israelis and Americans:

Watch: Pro-Palestinian BLM Rallies in U.S. Call for ‘Death to Israel, Death to America’


https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2020/07/06/pro-palestinian-blm-rallies-in-u-s-call-for-death-to-israel-and-to-america/
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 06, 2020, 09:58:47 AM
For accurate information of the goals/mission of the BLM organization:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/

Unsurprisingly, there is no mention of Israel or Palestine.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 06, 2020, 12:10:00 PM
Now if you really want to see some losers, check these dopes out - the black version of the KKK:

https://www.newsweek.com/armed-black-demonstrators-challenge-white-supremacist-militia-georgias-stone-mountain-park-1515494
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 07, 2020, 08:58:02 AM
For accurate information of the goals/mission of the BLM organization:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/

Unsurprisingly, there is no mention of Israel or Palestine.

Yeah because what a marketing firm puts on their "about" page embodies their actual intentions...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8ZWtqIzmQI

"We are trained Marxists."

“White people are sub human.”

https://thepostmillennial.com/blm-toronto-leader-believes-white-people-are-sub-human-calls-them-genetic-defects

Doesn't get any more clear cut than that...Sorry but when people try to defend the BLM group and say there are a lot of good people in the group I can't help but laugh. You know who else probably had a lot of "good people" in the group who were duped into believing and peddling the growth of another organization? The Nazis. Not everyone was an SS officer. Many were normal folks who probably didn't embody the entire vision of Hitler but supported some of the more agreeable undertones of the platform. Many of them just supported workers rights, reduced taxes on land, profit sharing, abolition of the military, creation of a healthy middle class etc.

Secure the masses with Utopian ideals and then shift the goal posts to more "blunt" ideals. Anyone who can't see that same angle in the BLM movement is woefully blind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 07, 2020, 10:34:38 AM
Not sure what Marxism has to do with police brutality or racism. Seems like another non-sequitur.


On the topic of that nutjob from Toronto, well she's a nutjob, it's as simple as that. The difference is (1) again, BLM is not a taxpayer funded organization - it's a protest group. They cannot detain you, shoot you, etc. And (2) There are decades of evidence that US police organizations have a problem with excessive force. From this we can conclude it is a systematic issue. You cannot make the same comparison with BLM.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: Castanza on July 07, 2020, 10:57:53 AM
Not sure what Marxism BLM has to do with police brutality or racism. Seems like another non-sequitur.

Getting warmer


Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: cubsfan on July 07, 2020, 02:44:34 PM
More on the BS of "White Supremacy" from a Black Man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TImV5TadrJc




Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 07, 2020, 07:43:04 PM
Quote
Here are a couple of thoughtful commentaries, hopefully nobody will consider them overly biased or idealogical:

https://www.city-journal.org/reflections-on-race-riots-and-police

It is an attempt at thoughtful commentary. I find criticism in two areas - first, I have done the work myself - we can show with reasonable certainty that blacks are killed disproportionately by police. This is after adjusting for a variety of factors including whether the victim had a weapon, what type of weapon, police propensity to engage with people of various races, adjusted for geography/population density/income levels, and a few other factors which I am forgetting. There was a 50 or so page topic on this forum where I presented the work, I think about 1-1.5 years ago? Admittedly the absolute # of unarmed deaths is low, but it is decidedly disproportionate. And if you expand it to violent encounters (not only deaths) the # balloons. 

Second point of criticism is the validity of property destruction as part, or as accompanying, "peaceful protests". I posted the exact quote a few weeks ago from MLK in the later years of his life as he delivered a speech to white physicians in DC, where he makes a variety of counterpoints to the one the article makes. In particular I find issue with the following quote from your referenced article
Quote
"Looting clothing stores or destroying grocery stores is something else entirely. We must be careful not to confuse the protesters with the rioters. The former are committed to nonviolence. The latter are simply criminals and should be treated as such."

This is a superficial view and lacks empathy and understanding. MLK makes the point better than I, and in two ways (I would suggest reading his speech as I will surely butcher his points but will try nonetheless). He says firstly that the act of looting and property destruction is a social illustration of what the oppressed community has experienced. It is communicating to those in power that for so long, the socially powerful (in his case, the white majority) has stolen physical safety, financial security, legal rights, destroyed economies, destroyed communities, etc. from the black minority - with the same ease that looters and vandals are now taking and destroying (white) property. The act of looting is a "small scale" reflection of how the powerful majority has treated the oppressed minority.

To say these violent/unlawful outbursts are wholly unrelated is, simply, to miss the point entirely.

The second point he makes is more utilitarian but I think just as powerful - he compares days/weeks/(months) of rioting and looting to years, decades, (centuries) of oppression - and asks, "which is truly worse, in the grand scheme of things". I'll add an edit here - the implication in this question is, for all those complaining about the looting and destruction that is occuring, about how socially dysfunctional this wanton theft and destruction is, about how these "violent thugs" are sullying the underlying message of injustice - are the questions: Where were these complaints over the past decades of injustice towards this minority group? Why are they complaining now, about something as trivial as a storefront glass and insured good for sale? Where were these complaints when innocent people were dying at the hands of an unjust majority?

It is this embarrassing irony that the act of looting and destruction is meant to focus the critical eye upon. The point of this violent destruction is to expose the ignorant hypocrisy of all those who make the claim from your article which I quoted above.

So again I'll reiterate my criticisms- on the data I find those who claim police violence effects all races "equally" as performing sloppy work (I am a statistician by trade if it means anything) and on the somewhat more subjective argument regarding the validity of types of protest, I again find the article you referenced to be superficial. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: meiroy on July 07, 2020, 08:15:04 PM
Israel =/= the Jews


Ok, got your point.

BLM has a problem with the Israelis
Sharpton has a problem with NY Jews.

happy now?
Happy? Always.

In this case, I can understand criticism of Israel. Jews, not so much. It’s an important distinction.

Not so much? A little? A bit, is OK with you?

Countless countries see yearly atrocities far worse then what you see in Israel.

What's happening in Syria right now, the numbers, are far greater than all the wars combined between Israel and its neighbors.


The ONE country you despise and think it's completely rational that BLM protestors shout about, is Israel?

I've just posted on another thread an example of black anti-Semitism.   Lookup DeSean Jackson's recent posts.

So yeah, horrible things happen in Israel, tragedies, and Israel should definitely be criticized. Absolutely.

However, the obsession with signaling out Israel is rooted in something else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel#:~:text=The%20following%20is%20a%20list,rest%20of%20the%20world%20combined.

"The following is a list of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel. As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by the United Nations Human Rights Council. Since the creation of the Council in 2006, it has resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the Council, not counting those under Agenda Item 10 (countries requiring technical assistance)."

"Since the creation of the Council in 2006, it has resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined"







Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 07, 2020, 08:15:45 PM
On the video speech you linked I also find issue.

Mr. McWhorter argues that anti-racism is a religion or "faith". In other words, it is accepted without  evidence. I find this to be untrue.

His argument is essentially that "anti racists turn a blind eye to (1) black-on-black violent crime and (2) upward mobility of young black people"

This is a strawman. He may as well point to disproportionate success of black athletes in the NBA to "refute" anti racism. The fact is that the success of certain young black people, and the murders of black people by other black people, these do not invalidate claims of inequality.

Put simply, black on black murders and disproportionate police murders of black people can both be bad. To claim that "anti racists" must address every and all issue equally (lest they be labeled uncritical or "religious") is illogical. This is particularly true in the sense that police organizations are taxpayer funded enterprises who answer to elected officials and are staffed by supposedly law-abiding officers. Whereas black-on-black murder is perpetrated by CRIMINALS. So unless you hold police officers to the same standard as criminals, it is illogical to equate the two.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: meiroy on July 07, 2020, 08:51:49 PM
Not sure what the confusion is here, it’s one thing to despise a country for its actions vs. despising it’s people.

Many folks across the world hate America for its international policy (war, war, and more war!). That doesn’t mean they hate Americans. Happy 4th!


Far more people around the world hate America because they live in countries ruled by regimes that the USA opposes. These regimes control what kids learn in school about America. They control the media. On the other hand,  kids in Vietnam learn about history, about the war, but they don't learn to hate America, so they don't.

The second main reason is due to the openness of the USA where everything is out in the open, like what we see these days.  How much do you really know about what's going on in Iran or North Korea?  The media is flooded with news from the USA.

Life is not a Disney movie where the bad guy is us because there aren't really any bad guys out there.



Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 07, 2020, 09:03:29 PM
I think you are attributing more than what I was saying. I was simply drawing a distinction between criticizing the actions of a nation vs. the people of that nation (or in the case of Israel, the religion)
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: meiroy on July 07, 2020, 09:09:43 PM
I'll reiterate my point again, this time really simply for you:

PUTIN BAD. NOT ALL RUSSIANS BAD

Yes, your point was clear.  That's the generic reply. I'm saying it's disingenuous and I have shown why.





Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: meiroy on July 07, 2020, 09:15:51 PM
I think you are attributing more than what I was saying. I was simply drawing a distinction between criticizing the actions of a nation vs. the people of that nation (or in the case of Israel, the religion)

And it's necessary to point that out?  Maybe because in reality, these anti-Israel-obsessive movements harbor a lot of anti-Semitism which they can't help but leak out now and then.

Why does BLM need to get involved with foreign policy right now? That's just stupid. I mean, don't you think it's silly they went and demonstrated against Putin, in support of the Russian opposition?
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 07, 2020, 09:24:28 PM
Quote
And it's necessary to point that out?
Yes it was, and apparently it still is.

Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: meiroy on July 07, 2020, 09:37:02 PM
Quote
And it's necessary to point that out?
Yes it was, and apparently it still is.

Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.


Of course, criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.  Again, you are being disingenuous.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 07, 2020, 09:42:33 PM
And how am I being disingenuous? I fail to see the link between UN resolutions against Israel and racist twitter posts from a football player, and the BLM organization.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 07, 2020, 09:57:29 PM

It is an attempt at thoughtful commentary. I find criticism in two areas - first, I have done the work myself - we can show with reasonable certainty that blacks are killed disproportionately by police.
So again I'll reiterate my criticisms- on the data I find those who claim police violence effects all races "equally" as performing sloppy work (I am a statistician by trade if it means anything) and on the somewhat more subjective argument regarding the validity of types of protest, I again find the article you referenced to be superficial. Just my 2 cents.

I appreciate your review and response. However, two things. You state that you have done the work yourself, and yet the academic papers (four cited by the author) do not show that "reasonable certainty." While published research can be very wrong, since we can't see your work (or can we?), perhaps you could point out the specific problems with it that you perceive. Also on the destruction and violence, if it was "BLM" acting against any actual "oppressors" than your perspective (or adaptation of MLK's) might stand. But the prevalence of white troublemakers acting a bit more indiscriminately and then their actions somehow being considered "defensible" doesn't really fit.

I'll try and dig it up - essentially we take the WashPo database and supplement with FBI data and the "best" state and city reporting data. There are issues with much of the analysis done on this topic, almost all due to poor reporting from police departments (as each state has different reporting standards). Therefore how data proxies are selected (used to control for the various factors I described in my previous post) play a large role.

On the second point, I disagree. I don't think it's necessary that BLM be the antagonist party. I take the point that certainly most of looters (both white and black) were not intending to make a symbolic gesture - but again I think focusing on individual motives misses the major point of a systematic problem with police culture.

Is the 22 year old homeless person throwing a rock through a storefront to philosophically create a symbol of defiance against these injustices? No. But you don't see 56 year old bank executives feeling the need to vandalize, either.
Title: Re: #CHAZ
Post by: LC on July 07, 2020, 10:09:55 PM
This was one such post (you may need to read the post above it for full context):

https://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/politics/absolutely-love-this-guy!/msg310835/#msg310835

But IIRC there was a really long thread about this topic a year or so ago where for a few pages some posters went back-and-forth using various datasets to draw their respective conclusions. Like I said I remember compiling WaPo data and overlayed with FBI reporting data, then used a few city/state datasets to factor out environmental variables. If you're really interested, that would be the way to reperform the analysis to see what factors are impacting the overall result and from there to draw your own conclusion.

Additionally I took a look at one such study referenced (https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf)

The authors conclude significant racial bias in any-use-of-force encounters; but lack of bias in shootings (as distinct from any lethal engagements). The study admittedly suffers from data quality issues. 1- Data suitability (self reported data also used by FBI through 2015, the year in which the FBI admitted data quality problems and determined to re-define their DQ standards) and 2- Data collection (was hand-tabulated by grad students albeit with some 2nd layer control, but again self-reported from POs themselves). Finally, the main dataset used to conclude no racial bias in shootings (Houston data Table2c - was not available in the paper and frankly I am not digging around online to find it)

This is not to dismiss the conclusions outright, but to understand we have (1) a narrow definition of police killings i.e. shootings only; and (2) compromises made to determine suitable datasets which I personally would disagree with.

This was 1/4 studies mentioned - as seen here the choices particularly in how you build your dataset are very important, hence my earlier suggestion to seek out these sources yourself, understand each source's reporting methodology, and perform your own analysis. This way you at least understand the implicit compromises which must be made to draw any conclusion.