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General Category => Politics => Topic started by: rukawa on October 08, 2020, 02:53:09 PM

Title: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: rukawa on October 08, 2020, 02:53:09 PM
Police shootings are driven by crime and a poorly trained unprofessional police force not white supremacy. Jamaica, South Africa have black supremacy and yet more police shootings and vastly higher crime than the US.

The defunding of the cops is having two effects
1) the best cops are leaving (https://www.wsj.com/articles/cities-are-losing-police-chiefs-and-struggling-to-hire-new-ones-11602162000?mod=hp_featst_pos3)

2) Crime is rising since cops are basically a lot less active (https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-officers-face-accusations-of-slowdown/378529735/)

Basically its a repeat of the 1970's. As crime rises and the worst cops remain in a demoralized police force we should expect to see more police shootings and much more corruption. Now there will of course be some oscilliation...you will have periods were blm activism lead to less cop activity and less shootings but sky-rocketing crime.

Then when crime really gets horrible you will have a counter-reaction where people start wanting very aggressive cops and much more action...and the cop shootings will dramatically rise. In both Jamaica and South Africa people want cops to be more aggressive despite the fact that cop shootings in both countries are far higher than the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country)

So BLM done the exact opposite of what is set out to do.
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: cubsfan on October 08, 2020, 03:44:49 PM
^ Of course! - try and tell that to the idiots on the LEFT and the Democratic Party.

Some things are just common sense.
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: cwericb on October 08, 2020, 04:59:38 PM
I might be wrong, but I don't think any of those guys that wanted to kill the Governor and take over the state of Michigan were "Lefties".
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: Parsad on October 08, 2020, 09:59:01 PM
^ Of course! - try and tell that to the idiots on the LEFT and the Democratic Party.

Some things are just common sense.

BLM is acting against racial injustice.  Defunding of the police is a separate issue...one that some may agree with and some may disagree with.  I support BLM, but I'm not interested in defunding the police. 

You like to compartmentalize groups and people...so does the President.   If there are extremists on the left, then all of the left is the same...that's your thinking.  But that's neither reality, nor the truth!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: Gregmal on October 08, 2020, 10:17:26 PM
For anyone with half a brain, do some due diligence. BLM is nothing more than a Democrat funded extremist group. Check out where the donations go...Straight to a Democrat PAC....
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: Cardboard on October 09, 2020, 07:46:44 AM
A tenth of a brain should be sufficient Greg.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: LC on October 09, 2020, 08:59:40 AM
A tenth of a brain should be sufficient Greg.

Cardboard

It's always good to have goals!


Quote
For anyone with half a brain, do some due diligence. BLM is nothing more than a Democrat funded extremist group. Check out where the donations go...Straight to a Democrat PAC....

The self burns truly are rare. Perhaps this is the type of due diligence you should have performed yourself?

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/warren-buffett-black-lives-matter

NoVo, a social justice foundation formed in 2006 by Peter Buffett—the son of billionaire investor Warren Buffett—and Peter’s wife, Jennifer.


NoVo, with Peter and Jennifer Buffett behind it, deepened its relations to the new racial justice movement, donating $300,000 in 2014 to IDEX—the group that would soon become BLM’s financial sponsor—plus another $750,000 to NDWA, where Garza worked


In 2015, the connection between the Buffett's giving to the two organizations became explicit. In that year, NoVo gifted $3.72 million to IDEX, a sum greater than the organization’s past three years of total revenue combined. Of that funding, $700,000 was specifically earmarked for the support of the Black Lives Matter movement. BLM co-founder Garza likewise saw her employer, NDWA, get a significant bump in revenue from NoVo, with an exponentially increased $4.5 million in unrestricted funding.


The transfer of BLM’s fiscal sponsorship from Thousand Currents to the Tides Network would appear to end the relationship between NoVo and the Black Lives Matter movement. However, according to public financial documents, NoVo has continued its relationship with BLM, just through a different shell organization. Indeed, NoVo is now even more deeply involved with BLM now that BLM is a part of the Tides Network: In 2018 alone, NoVo dispersed more than 100 separate donations totaling at least $121 million to Tides directly. (The relationship between NoVo and Tides is not strictly financial, either. According to their own public disclosures, the Tides Network provides “executive, administrative, and consulting services ... to NoVo Foundation,” in much the same fashion that IDEX served as the back office for Black Lives Matter.)

Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: cwericb on October 09, 2020, 09:06:40 AM
A tenth of a brain should be sufficient Greg.

Cardboard

It's always good to have goals!


Quote
For anyone with half a brain, do some due diligence. BLM is nothing more than a Democrat funded extremist group. Check out where the donations go...Straight to a Democrat PAC....

The self burns truly are rare. Perhaps this is the type of due diligence you should have performed yourself?

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/warren-buffett-black-lives-matter

NoVo, a social justice foundation formed in 2006 by Peter Buffett—the son of billionaire investor Warren Buffett—and Peter’s wife, Jennifer.


NoVo, with Peter and Jennifer Buffett behind it, deepened its relations to the new racial justice movement, donating $300,000 in 2014 to IDEX—the group that would soon become BLM’s financial sponsor—plus another $750,000 to NDWA, where Garza worked


In 2015, the connection between the Buffett's giving to the two organizations became explicit. In that year, NoVo gifted $3.72 million to IDEX, a sum greater than the organization’s past three years of total revenue combined. Of that funding, $700,000 was specifically earmarked for the support of the Black Lives Matter movement. BLM co-founder Garza likewise saw her employer, NDWA, get a significant bump in revenue from NoVo, with an exponentially increased $4.5 million in unrestricted funding.


The transfer of BLM’s fiscal sponsorship from Thousand Currents to the Tides Network would appear to end the relationship between NoVo and the Black Lives Matter movement. However, according to public financial documents, NoVo has continued its relationship with BLM, just through a different shell organization. Indeed, NoVo is now even more deeply involved with BLM now that BLM is a part of the Tides Network: In 2018 alone, NoVo dispersed more than 100 separate donations totaling at least $121 million to Tides directly. (The relationship between NoVo and Tides is not strictly financial, either. According to their own public disclosures, the Tides Network provides “executive, administrative, and consulting services ... to NoVo Foundation,” in much the same fashion that IDEX served as the back office for Black Lives Matter.)


OUCH!
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: Gregmal on October 09, 2020, 09:30:03 AM
Financial backing and where the donations go are two different things.

I'll also add, George Soros funds plenty of movements as well. Whats your point? Rich people utilize their wealth? Donations to BLM go straight to one of the largest Democrat PACs
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: SharperDingaan on October 10, 2020, 12:45:06 PM
PTSD is the common and widespread 'elephant in the room', that very few within the police, emergency services, mental health, and security forces are able to talk about. Sadly a great many BLM incidents are simply because otherwise good people just 'lost it'. We call it radicalization if it turns you into a terrorist, otherwise you're expected to self medicate and suck it up.

Defund the Police, just means a mental health person accompanying the police when practical. Defusing the 2 of 3 times, when its really someone suffering a mental breakdown, keep the overwhelming force just for the times that it truly matters. To those suffering PTSD it's a threat to jobs, and overtime. Worse still, being diagnosed with the problem!

BLM is very restrained, and owes a great deal to its civil rights heritage - be happy that there's something to dialogue with.
The reaction could easily have gone the way of Germanys Baader-Meinhof gang. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6314559.stm

SD


Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: cubsfan on October 10, 2020, 02:53:04 PM
^ RE: BLM - it would be nice if this was true and the cure was so easy.

BLM is basically the anarchy/militant wing of the Democratic Party - which has gone full scale berserk.
The criminal element which riots, burns, destroys private property and life in the name of "social justice" - which is a bunch of crap.
BLM has carte blanche from the Democratic Party - shielded from criticism and condemnation - so they can continue with their power grab.
Elections/votes don't matter to BLM - stir up continuous unrest and violence and hope the American people will give up to their power grab.

I think Americans have had enough of BLM, we will soon find out.  It's clear the movement is no longer about race, but a class warfare movement.
"We want power, and will destroy your cities if you do not give it to us"

To think that effective policing will be done by social workers is quite the therapeutic view - and espoused perfectly by the elites on the left.
The world just doesn't work that way - and police have good reason to fear the dangerous behavior of criminals on the streets.

IF only Defunding the Police were just that simple.
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: rukawa on October 10, 2020, 10:18:51 PM
Defund the Police, just means a mental health person accompanying the police when practical. Defusing the 2 of 3 times, when its really someone suffering a mental breakdown, keep the overwhelming force just for the times that it truly matters.

That isn't the way mental health professionals operate.

Mental health professions can do two things:
1) prescribe medication which usually takes two weeks to become active
2) Engage in various forms of therapy: mindfulness meditation, CBT etc which takes  years to help if it helps at all.

They have no way to deal with a psychotic person or to de-escalate except to pump someone full of meds and restrain them with orderlies. There is zero training on how to operate outside a clinical environment (hospital or office). In a hospital the usual method is to restrain and then pump full of drugs. People also die in mental health facilities in numbers comparable to police shootings.

And finally social workers...they do two things:
1) give advice that useless people refuse to follow
2) direct people or systems to provide a person with additional resources e.g. shelter, money, health care, food

They have zero training on emergency or de-escalation type situations. I have zero idea why anyone ever thought this whole idea of sending these people into these situations makes any sense whatsoever.
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: LC on October 11, 2020, 01:13:48 AM
Quote
And finally social workers...they do two things:
1) give advice that useless people refuse to follow
2) direct people or systems to provide a person with additional resources e.g. shelter, money, health care, food

They have zero training on emergency or de-escalation type situations

Zero training?
Gimmeafugginbreak...have you ever befriended a social worker? If so, you would know this to be false. But don't take my word for it:

The national association of social workers (NASW) and other groups have published and implemented de-escalation trainings (including with violent clients) on this very topic, for decades.

This is in addition to state and local workplace training.

For example:
https://meetny.webex.com/meetny/onstage/g.php?MTID=e3cd6c4dfe1867fe4b9670d098ef88dd5
https://nasw-heartland.site-ym.com/events/EventDetails.aspx?alias=CrisisIntervention9-6-2018
https://www.lifespan.org/events/de-escalation-management-aggressive-behavior-and-patient-engagement-strategies-trauma
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: SharperDingaan on October 11, 2020, 11:10:07 AM
Like it or not, we don't shoot people for having a mental breakdown, and we no longer put people in asylums (unless absolutely necessary).
If we did - this would be a good part of the drug addicted USA. Yet to some, these people are a burden to society; and we would all be a lot safer were they just quietly 'eliminated'.'Cause you've got to prune the 'deadwood!

Suicides in the US are way up since Covid, and much of it is tied to mental breakdown. The less generous note that many of the worst affected states are also those that were most vocal against wearing masks. Arseholes posturing killed granny and grandpa, they can't face their kids anymore, and can no longer live with themselves. Mental breakdowns and handy gun-racks, don't go well together. Even the poverty struck in 'hillbilly country' do better.  https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/05/the-global-suicide-rate-is-growing-what-can-we-do/

BLM just holds the mirror up - and we don't like what we see. It is not acceptable, and it needs to change, today.
In the former South Africa there used to be Apartheid, then along came the ANC and Nelson Mandela - Apartheid lost. The US is no different - peaceful processes just take a little longer.

Time isn't static - nobody can stop change.
All that we can do - is our best to NOT get trampled upon.

SD






Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: Castanza on October 11, 2020, 12:46:36 PM
Quote
And finally social workers...they do two things:
1) give advice that useless people refuse to follow
2) direct people or systems to provide a person with additional resources e.g. shelter, money, health care, food

They have zero training on emergency or de-escalation type situations

Zero training?
Gimmeafugginbreak...have you ever befriended a social worker? If so, you would know this to be false. But don't take my word for it:

The national association of social workers (NASW) and other groups have published and implemented de-escalation trainings (including with violent clients) on this very topic, for decades.

This is in addition to state and local workplace training.

For example:
https://meetny.webex.com/meetny/onstage/g.php?MTID=e3cd6c4dfe1867fe4b9670d098ef88dd5
https://nasw-heartland.site-ym.com/events/EventDetails.aspx?alias=CrisisIntervention9-6-2018
https://www.lifespan.org/events/de-escalation-management-aggressive-behavior-and-patient-engagement-strategies-trauma

Have you ever befriended a police officer? Do you know any ex military individuals? How about SOF members? If you did then you likely wouldnt be trying to argue that the simple restraint and deescalation training give to to mental health professionals is anywhere adequate to dealing with individuals on the streets. My best friend is the principle of an Alternative Ed Facillity that deals with troubled teens. The training they have is minimal and dealing with individuals in a controlled environment is far different than dealing with someone in the streets fresh off an incident. Police deal with individuals in always changing unknown environments. Mental health professionals generally work in controlled environments.

I agree that mental health individuals should be involved. There has been data to back this up. But the idea that they should be calling the shots and muzzling police is ridiculous. There is a reason pretty much every prominent SOF, SEAL members etc are saying defunding the police is a mistake. My buddy was discussing this with me. The democrat plan to band choke holds and other common restraint methods without replacing them or adding additional training is downright dangerous. He said it will result in more aggressive and violent tactics from police. The more violent the police have to be to restrain someone, the more combatant individuals will be. This is coming from a guy who spent 4 years kicking down doors in Afghanistan after 2 1/2 years of training. More training and more funding is the proper answer, not less.

@sharper.....plenty of democrats have come out and clarified exactly what defund the police means. AOC went on a rant when they only decided to cut a few bil from the NYC budget. She felt they should go all the way and abolish the police. Like it or not, she is the face of the Democratic Party. So if that’s not the intention, then their ranks need to clarify their goals.  Because and awful lot of them already have.
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: LC on October 11, 2020, 02:24:50 PM
Half the men in my family are marines and/or ex-NYPD, so yes.

Social workers routinely work on the streets. It’s a part of their job. I gratefully count a handful of social workers as friends and they meet the homeless and mentally ill on the street corners and alleys where they live, either for routine checkups or to deliver resources. And in many cases have dealt with high, drunk, and violent cases. And they are mostly women (the SWs) so at a major physical disadvantage, in fact my guess is their de-escalation methods are far superior to police.

I had a friend who owned a security group that worked bars and clubs. I met him while outside having a smoke and shooting the shit, “you don’t look like the typical security guy”. He said the best thing in that line of work was not hiring 6’6” 250lb ex football players. While intimidating, their idea to end an incident is to control it. Rather he would hire “normal” guys in numbers, who were quicker to react and could talk-down incidents.

And show me where I said social workers should muzzle police? They should (and in some cases do) work in tandem.

I was specifically responding to the claim that social workers receive ZERO de-escalation training, which is absolutely false and belies a total lack of understanding of that profession.

Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: SharperDingaan on October 12, 2020, 10:24:40 AM
This close to election date, both sides are just appealing to their bases.
Implementation, if/when it happens, will very likely be quite different to todays rhetoric. In some places the offender is simply sniped with a dart-gun, and darts loaded with a fast acting tranquilizer (as might be done with a problem garbage bear prior to airlift). Better than a sniper putting a soft nosed bullet through the head, or the hand holding the weapon.

Mental health is there to break the escalation cycle, and protect the mental health of both sniper and offender as much as possible. The sniper makes the decision as to whether the first shot is a dart or a bullet, and where. With help available immediately after the event, for both the sniper, victim, those who had to rapidly bag the head/get the body away, and any/all nearby witnesses.

Mental health also monitoring the base level of PTSD within the assigned unit, and getting them immediate help. So that wives, girlfriends, babies don't get beaten, and otherwise good people don't kill themselves trying to get rid of the images. Alcoholics have Alcoholics Anonymous, civil society occupations prone to PTSD, should have embedded mental health professionals.

It's not about 'defunding', it's just being smarter about where existing budget should be spent.
Thereafter, budget can go down as the need to continue policing at current levels declines.

SD
   

Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: rukawa on October 13, 2020, 04:57:26 PM
Half the men in my family are marines and/or ex-NYPD, so yes.

Social workers routinely work on the streets. It’s a part of their job. I gratefully count a handful of social workers as friends and they meet the homeless and mentally ill on the street corners and alleys where they live, either for routine checkups or to deliver resources. And in many cases have dealt with high, drunk, and violent cases.
....
I was specifically responding to the claim that social workers receive ZERO de-escalation training, which is absolutely false and belies a total lack of understanding of that profession.

The understanding that I have is based on observing social workers in direct action with people I know. All I have observed them do is provide resources or advice. In all cases were the person was uncontrollable they called police and it usually didn't take long for that to happen. A knife or any violence would instantaneously result in a call to police.

This also completely agree with what you see actual practicing social workers saying on this thread...which is basically that they refuse to accept situations where they will be verbally abused or any situation that involves any violence whatsoever for social workers:
https://www.reddit.com/r/socialwork/comments/9hhjs7/violenceaggression_toward_social_workers_should/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/socialwork/comments/9hhjs7/violenceaggression_toward_social_workers_should/)
Quote
No, no, no, and no, absolutely not. Violence and threats of violence should not be tolerated, ever. I have a right to human dignity, worth, and safety, just as much as my clients do. Accepting violence from clients under the excuse of "they're not well", is absolutely unacceptable.

Quote
I don't think I could ever justify being physically threatened and/or harmed at my place of employment. I am not a police officer and no job is worth that. I value my life more than any job and social workers shouldn't be placed in situations where violence of any kind (especially physical violence) is tolerated. Fuck that noise.

Observe the comments in this thread. And compare with the verbal abuse and violence cops have to endure in emergency situations. Basically social workers barely have tolerance for being verbally abused...forget violence. There literally are saying they want a zero tolerance environment for social workers. How the heck are they then equipped to deal with violent situations.

You haven't demonstrated that social workers receive de-escalation training. Only that its offered somewhere. This is largely meaningless. The first training is a webinar and is very theoretical. The only practical one is your second link (which uses professional actors) and that isn't even directed at social workers. Its directed at police officers and is taught by a police officer. The third is directed at doctors not social workers (read the bottom). So 2 of your 3 links are even directed at social workers...and the only one that is is a webinar.

So lets see a person can take a webinar and know how to descalate a situation where a person is waving a knife around. Maybe we should train the millitary this way...give them webinars on the theory of war. They don't even need to fire weapons...should work great. Maybe they can also try to implement a zero tolerance policy for violence in wars because as the social worker above said:
I don't think I could ever justify being physically threatened and/or harmed at my place of employment.
Title: Re: Expect to see more police shootings in the future because of BLM
Post by: LC on October 14, 2020, 06:49:21 AM
So a conference hosted by the national association of social workers, isn’t directed to social workers?

And a training course taught by a social worker, which specifically states:  “ Target audience: psychologists, physicians, social workers and other interested health care professionals.” also isn’t directed to social workers?

OK, right then.