Author Topic: George Floyd  (Read 21380 times)

Parsad

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2020, 05:21:48 PM »
Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.

Yes!  I mean they weren't even put on modified duty last week, but have now been charged and the judge has set bail at $750K.  While they are all guilty, I feel a bit sorry for the cop who was directing away spectators and wasn't actually involved.  He should be charged with something, but manslaughter or murder?  Whether anyone admits it or not, there is a blue shield code where you protect your own and you don't side with others.  He was just trying to control the environment and would never have thought one of his own was killing Floyd.  Again, not making an excuse for him...but he wasn't the one on Floyd.  Cheers!
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valueinvestor

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2020, 10:09:33 PM »

I'm NOT encouraging violence, in fact I CONDEMN it - but ask yourself this - "what good comes from not looting, rioting or having violent protest, especially being marginalized by society for so long like George Floyd and countless others?"


This reminds me of the advice I was given that when you see someone say something with a "but" in the middle, ignore everything that comes before the "but".  And that I find truly offensive.  There is NO justification for the looting and violence that's occurred.  None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.  Beyond being incredibly damaging to the cause, it fundamentally frays society in incalculable ways.  Making any excuse to "burn it all down" is not acceptable.

So what if you're offended? Although I'm happy you had an explanation because most people say I'm offended to not acknowledge the core issue or their outright refusal to see reality.

I wasn't giving advice, or at least it's not my intent - if anyone I know is going to riot, and hell if anyone I don't know - I'm going to do my part to stop/persuade them.

In order to solve the problem, we need to see why they are rioting. Even if the statistic is true, which I find suspect at best, it doesn't solve the problem. Since people do not remember what you did for them, they only remember how you made them feel. We CAN'T simply say - there's no excuses for the behaviour... duh... there's no excuse, but just because it's not an excuse, doesn't mean there's no reason.

I was simply saying what other option do they have against a perceived tyrannical institution? Imagine if this wasn't the US, and you're in another country where you're constantly marginalized... what would you do, if you can't leave?

What about respect for the rule of law? 

What if the rule of law doesn't respect you - Chauvin (the cop who had his neck on George Floyd) had 18 internal affairs investigations against him according to the police department (even if it is half true - that's ridiculous). Imagine if it was a Black Cop or any coloured minority, do you think they would have the same treatment? It may not be a race thing, but maybe Chauvin has a long history in the town and has strings to pull, which is why he is a repeat offender.

but I think it is everyone's moral duty to try to see the truth and reality as it is.

I like the old Stoic virtues - Wisdom, Temperance, Justice and Courage

+1.


You can’t tell a group of historically oppressed people that you understand how they feel, but they have to say it on your terms. That means you don’t really understand. It means you don’t care enough. Why should Black Americans have to pause and salute Drew Brees’s grandfathers before talking about how their own relatives have been treated? Why is his family’s history more important than theirs?

Drew Brees doesn’t get to call that play. He did not seem to realize how condescending and offensive it is for a white person to tell Black people, “Hey, let’s all stand up and show unity here.”

+1

Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.

Yes!  I mean they weren't even put on modified duty last week, but have now been charged and the judge has set bail at $750K.  While they are all guilty, I feel a bit sorry for the cop who was directing away spectators and wasn't actually involved.  He should be charged with something, but manslaughter or murder?  Whether anyone admits it or not, there is a blue shield code where you protect your own and you don't side with others.  He was just trying to control the environment and would never have thought one of his own was killing Floyd.  Again, not making an excuse for him...but he wasn't the one on Floyd.  Cheers!

This is the problem, and sadly one I faced too. All I ask is that again they get a fair trial, but seeing what's happening, it may not happen. Sometimes rulings are not based on the merit of the case, which again causes the problem. Hence, the discussion because it involves them.

I'll play devil's advocate, even though you guys know that I'm a fiscal conservative but a rabid social liberal!  I'll lay out some points as Gregmal and Cubsfan have a few more days of COBF quarantine.

- How long does it take until reparations are enough?  My own great-great-great grandparents were indentured labourers brought over from India...pretty much with no choice!
- I mean you now have an America which already had a black president. 
- 50 years ago, would anyone have listened to Oprah the way that they do today? 
- Other than a few southern counties, mixed marriages are completely acceptable and legal. 
- The U.S. is the land of opportunity, what is stopping people from pulling themselves out of poverty?  Don't most immigrant populations feel enormous racism or bigotry when they get here?  Even the Irish were considered a repulsive group by native born Americans before the civil war.  What about the Italian immigrants who lived in ghettos in New York after the civil war.
- Have reparations ever changed the long-term outlook or success of oppressed minorities?
- I can understand making an initial statement with rioting and looting, but really, do we believe the people looting these days are actual protestors?
- Malcolm X was once asked by a woman, "What can I do to help your cause?"  His response was "Nothing!"  Do we really believe anything will change?  We've barely made a dent in gun laws in the U.S., do we really think we can talk and march away racism or police brutality?
- George Floyd, Ahmed Aubrey, etc are the few exceptions, but usually the police have to deal with violent criminals and force is necessary.  Just like a white person hasn't walked in a black person's shoes, very few people have walked in a police officer's shoes.  Every day, their lives are at risk...how can they protect themselves without using force or corrective techniques in an adrenalin-filled fight with a culprit?

Cheers!  I'm sure I'll come up with more reasons as you guys answer these questions.

To be clear, my answer is not a reflection of your character or views (or anyone's for that matter, especially if you're trying to be devil's advocate) - I'm simply driving the discussion forward, and hopefully, we gain insights together. However, this list of objections is something we always hear and I touched upon during my initial "remarks." Just because it happened before, why is it right now? Just because it happens to cops, again why is it right for their treatment of "alleged" criminals.

Secondly, do you really believe police officers have it worse? I believe they should be paid higher, for that amount of crap they experience, and the majority of officers are good and trying their best. However unfortunately you can't have bad cops, just like you can't have bad surgeons.

Thirdly, when someone says don't lives of cops matter? Of course, but I think they already do matter. When a person is shot, you may see a couple of officers at most, but when a COP is shot, you see the whole town turn into Alcatraz. It's something that I've seen when growing up in a less than savoury neighbourhood - although I don't have evidence for this occurring now, I wouldn't be surprised if it's still the case. So yes, All Lives Matter, but there's a reason why many are opting to post, like, share Black Lives Matter because it again covers the cop lives matter issue, covers the real issue at hand, which oddly enough, if fixed will fix the "cop lives matter" issue.


The OP asked for another perspective, so here it is with some actual facts and statistics per the WSJ.  Do with them what you may:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.


Also going back to JamesMadison post with the statistics on more unarmed white people were shot, than black people and presenting as proof is ridiculous. I don't think James was presenting as such, as he said do what you will with the statistic. However, if it was true, how would Amy Cooper know that calling the cops, describing an "African American" man, not just a man - would present as a threat to Christian Cooper (the person who she's calling the cops on).

I'm not saying we should provide preferential treatment, or equality of outcome, but rather equality of opportunity. People should have a fair trial, should have a fair shot at a job, fair shot at gaining entrace to a university (not have it taken away with bribes - lori loughlin), but sadly it's not the case. AND... Frankly considering it's 2020, we have no excuse. What excuse do we have to have this be a part of society other than tolerance, and lack of action.

Going back to old adage - “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good individuals to do nothing.”

This post is to urge anyone and everyone to do their part or at the very least be aware of the entire issue - not just one side's.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 10:58:11 PM by valueinvestor »

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2020, 03:34:51 AM »
Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.
I am worried about all four. They looks guilty now and people I respect who are far more knowledgeable than me regarding policing are condemning them, but I'm sure that Richard Jewel looked really guilty at some point too.

It would be best if people could trust the judicial system. Of course, under Trump and Bill Barr there is possibly less reason to trust the judicial system on an issue like this than at any time in the last 60 years.

LC

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2020, 05:27:12 AM »
I'm more concerned that all over the country we are seeing police departments being exposed as abusive, corrupt entities.

Here are 20 LAPD "officers" (THUGS) shooting nonlethal rounds directly at a homeless, disabled man's face:



Quote
“As I was being arrested for my second day in a row during peaceful protests in support of Black Lives Matter, I decided to continue taking photos until the moment right before handcuffs were put on me. Very risky, but a necessary move to expose LAPD's entirely inexcusable use of aggressive force, especially in the moments before mass arrests of peaceful protestors.

As we were being boxed in on Broadway & 5th Street to be arrested, LAPD decided that a completely unarmed homeless man in a wheelchair that had NOTHING to do with our protest was somehow a threat. They proceeded to inappropriately shoot "non-lethal" rounds directly at his face, which is against the proper procedure for firing rubber bullets.

The last image is exceptionally heart-breaking for me as you can visibly see the homeless man writhing in pain, screaming, as he spews blood from his face moments after getting shot."

Recall the countless photos and videos available from the last week of police brutality.

Police departments are being exposed nationwide. This is not "a few bad apples". And it's beyond even racism. It is corruption and brutality. It is proof that police departments nationwide systematically abuse their power when given the opportunity.
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cwericb

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2020, 05:37:13 AM »
“Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial?”

YES.

Before judging them, first you have to have some understanding of a para-military organization. Essentially, you do as you are told.
Take a closer look at the situation.

Derek Chauvin was a 19 year veteran and the senior officer - by far.

Alexander Kueng was only on his THIRD SHIFT as a police officer and Chauvin was his training officer.

Thomas Lane had been on the police force for only FOUR DAYS.

Tou Thao, simply stood near the other officers as they restrained Floyd and kept the crowd back.

In a military or para-military force you are not in a position where you question a senior officers decisions.
So are they any more guilty than the spectators who witnessed the situation? Should the person who took the video be charged? Of course not.

Now these three have been fired and will have their lives turned upside down through little fault of their own. They seem to be victims as well.
As a police chief friend said to me once, "There is very little justice in the justice system."

I am certainly not out to defend the police forces and their actions. In general I find they are way, way too militaristic. However I don't think we should lynch these three guys just because they were there. For the most part there was little difference between them and the spectators.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 05:39:47 AM by cwericb »
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LC

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2020, 05:43:19 AM »
They should be held accountable. Otherwise it perpetuates the militaristic attitude that you complain of. POs should fear the consequences of abdicating their individual responsibility to “protect and serve”.
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cwericb

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2020, 05:48:21 AM »
I realize that many would like to make an example of these guys, but it is a bit of a stretch to charge guys with aiding and abetting second-degree murder, when they have only been on the force for a couple of days and took little or no active part in strangling Floyd. Why not charge the spectators too?.
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LC

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2020, 05:53:34 AM »
Are you seriously asking why spectators would be hesitant to jump on a PO who is mid-arrest and killing someone?

First, it’s illegal to interfere with an arrest. Second, there’s a wave of police brutality sweeping the nation.

Imagine what any of those 3 cops would have done if someone dove on Chauvin. The spectator be lucky to escape the situation alive.

Fellow cops on the other hand are empowered physically, legally, and morally to manage these situations.
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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2020, 05:53:40 AM »
I'm more concerned that all over the country we are seeing police departments being exposed as abusive, corrupt entities.

Here are 20 LAPD "officers" (THUGS) shooting nonlethal rounds directly at a homeless, disabled man's face:



Quote
“As I was being arrested for my second day in a row during peaceful protests in support of Black Lives Matter, I decided to continue taking photos until the moment right before handcuffs were put on me. Very risky, but a necessary move to expose LAPD's entirely inexcusable use of aggressive force, especially in the moments before mass arrests of peaceful protestors.

As we were being boxed in on Broadway & 5th Street to be arrested, LAPD decided that a completely unarmed homeless man in a wheelchair that had NOTHING to do with our protest was somehow a threat. They proceeded to inappropriately shoot "non-lethal" rounds directly at his face, which is against the proper procedure for firing rubber bullets.

The last image is exceptionally heart-breaking for me as you can visibly see the homeless man writhing in pain, screaming, as he spews blood from his face moments after getting shot."

Recall the countless photos and videos available from the last week of police brutality.

Police departments are being exposed nationwide. This is not "a few bad apples". And it's beyond even racism. It is corruption and brutality. It is proof that police departments nationwide systematically abuse their power when given the opportunity.
I am not surprised.

The language of Trump is dehumanizing. When you dehumanize someone, it becomes much easier to commit atrocities against them.

Trump has been working hard to build allegiance with law enforcement organizations around the county. Some members of police are not that bright (average or below only by design in many cases https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836), many feel maligned by the left, and then they have Trump filling their heads with propaganda. Add to that that many of them may feel protestors are putting their lives at risk through Coronavirus and we have a very dangerous situation that the President seems to be enjoying.

At the same time, the radical left has been dehumanizing cops, and we see an increase in attacks on cops, which just makes the situation worse.

Here's a summary of the situation:
-Some cops are dangerous, or unfit for duty and should be fired or prosecuted.
-Police wield enormous power and should be held to a higher standard.
-In all organizations there is the temptation to cover up for your coworkers or to feel allegiance to those on your team.
-The solutions are not that simple or they likely would have already been implemented.
-Some easy improvements likely have not been implemented due to a resistance to change.
-Terrible leadership at many levels is making all of this worse.
-There are actors on the left, on the right and foreign actors who want to make this worse through violence and social media disinformation.

cwericb

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2020, 06:03:16 AM »
"Are you seriously asking why spectators would be hesitant to jump on a PO who is mid-arrest and killing someone?"

No. I am simply trying to point out that a guy who has been on the police force for four days or three shifts is not really in a position to jump on his senior officer and drag him off the guy being arrested. Because he did not do that, he is being charged with aiding and abetting second degree murder. You just do not do that in a military organization. Do I think the police are too militaristic? Absolutely. Do I think that needs to be changed. Of course.
Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason. - Mark Twain