Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: valueinvestor on June 03, 2020, 05:42:21 AM

Title: George Floyd
Post by: valueinvestor on June 03, 2020, 05:42:21 AM
I'm not going to pretend that this ties into value investing and finance, but I think it's important to be said - I keep my politics private for most of my life, and I feel like a hypocrite writing about this now, when this happened countless times and even sick as an entrepreneur and investor growing the value of my business and portfolio's value amidst such a humanitarian crisis. However, I feel as if it's my duty because today's legislation does not seem to be voted by the ballot, but rather the dollar. Which is why, I'll accumulate and deplete that dollar as much as I can, so I can exert my views and encourage everyone to do the same, so they can push their views, so we can end up with a world view that's diverse. If you think accumulating capital shouldn't be one's duty, well you're right and wrong. Since you're certainly also have a luxury that many others and I cannot afford. In a just world I would've been a physicist, but in this world I have people that I know and don't know, who I do not want to go through what I went through especially before social media.

With Myanmar, Amy Cooper, Ahmad Albury, Syria, General Abuse against Minorities and Women, and I hate to say this but the infinite injustices this world seems to carry today - it kills me. Even more, the ignorance of many people with these issues, and the inherent ignorance of those who are aware because they are being hidden between the lines... specifically the whole issue when you don't follow the news, you're uninformed, and when you follow the news, you're misinformed.

However with George Floyd, the video of a cop calmly taking away a man's life on video, where he's probably fully aware that he's being recorded and not caring because he had 17 internal affairs investigations - says it all. When Amy Cooper called the police because she knew by the time they figured out who's right and who's wrong, the police would most likely hurt him in someway because he's black makes makes me angry because I've seen it so many times. By the way, this anger that I feel in my bones is not new, but something many others and I had for almost our entire lives. Since everyone knew this issue is true, but mostly pretended that it was not a large enough issue or justified it by saying it's better than it was 100 years ago. F*ck - it's better now? Sorry, I should keep quiet about the millions, and perhaps billions that face injustice today. As a human being, I do not understand how even if the number goes down to one person a year, it's cause to celebrate.

Before it TL;DR, I'll end it with this - don't do what I did where I shared my views only when great injustices occurred, but rather use your views and power to educate those who are unaware and don't know why racism and/or any form of discrimination should be tolerated. Since let's face - many tolerate discrimination even though they do not agree with it because they want to keep that customer, supplier, be in the good graces of that professor, boss, or anyone with authority, because it affects their future - and I'm not blaming them and very sympathetic but as long-term oriented individuals - imagine if that's your own partner, children, relative, or any loved one in that predicament. I don't know about you but I rather take the short term hit, so long term the future is brighter, and do my part.

I hope this provides a deep understanding of those who do not understand the public outrage of what people of minority go through everyday, and frankly I've had it with the constant objection that tries to distract many from the real issue - which is "what good comes from looting, rioting or having violent protest?" - again it shows lack of awareness on the issue.

I'm NOT encouraging violence, in fact I CONDEMN it - but ask yourself this - "what good comes from not looting, rioting or having violent protest, especially being marginalized by society for so long like George Floyd and countless others?"

I hope this post is an eye-opener and does some good, and if it doesn't - doesn't matter - because I already was trying more than most, and this all I have more to offer. Hopefully in my lifetime, these issues will be eliminated in my lifetime such as the issues of slavery, at the very least, I'm going to try.

EDIT: If you have a different pov, please do not be afraid to share - I want us to have a discussion. I'm not going to attack you - I will make an effort to understand your point, and hopefully arrive to a mutual agreement.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 03, 2020, 06:16:27 PM
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3095217

Growing controversy surrounds the impact of labor unions on law enforcement behavior. Critics argue that unions impede organizational reform and insulate officers from discipline for misconduct. Yet collective bargaining tends to increase wages, which could improve officer behavior. We provide quasi-experimental empirical evidence on the effects of collective bargaining rights on violent incidents of misconduct. Our empirical strategy exploits a 2003 Florida Supreme Court decision (Williams), which conferred collective bargaining rights on sheriffs’ deputies, resulting in a substantial increase in unionization among these officers. Using a Florida state administrative database of “moral character” violations reported by local agencies between 1996 and 2015, we implement a difference-in-difference approach in which police departments (which were unaffected by Williams) serve as a control group for sheriffs’ offices (SOs). Our estimates imply that collective bargaining rights led to a substantial increase in violent incidents of misconduct among SOs, relative to police departments. The effect of collective bargaining rights is concentrated among SOs that subsequently adopted collective bargaining agreements, and the timing of the adoption of these agreements is associated with increases in violent misconduct. There is also some evidence consistent with a “bargaining in the shadow” effect among SOs that did not unionize.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LongHaul on June 04, 2020, 08:10:49 AM
This was a great quote by RFK when MLK was killed.

Acknowledging the audience's emotions, Kennedy referred to his own grief at the murder of Martin Luther King and, quoting a passage from the play Agamemnon (in translation), said: "My favorite poet was Aeschylus. And he once wrote: 'Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.' What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence and lawlessness; but is love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or whether they be black ... Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world." The quotation from Aeschylus was later inscribed on a memorial at the gravesite of Robert Kennedy following his own assassination.[48][better source needed]

The actual speech is on youtube.

I liked your post.  It is hard not to get emotional about some great injustices over time if you care about human lives and justice. 

Think about the Injustices of Genocides - Armenian, Jewish, Rwanda, etc.  Then there was Stalin killing ~20 million people in Russia or Mao's stupid policies.  Or today in North Korea.  We are violent species - it is in our DNA.  But that is what helped humans survive - being pugnacious.    I am not making excuses for injustices - just citing a reality of man.

The great news is that things are very slowly getting better - decade by decade.  Not perfect - they never will be.  But there are many less injustices today then 200+ years ago. 

I don't have many answers - but I think it is everyone's moral duty to try to see the truth and reality as it is.

I like the old Stoic virtues - Wisdom, Temperance, Justice and Courage






Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: DTEJD1997 on June 04, 2020, 08:52:49 AM
hey all:

I'm refraining from posting a lot of stuff these days...

Here in Detroit, we have a long history of riots.

When the riots hit in 1967, it damaged/destroyed a lot of the city.  In fact, there are huge swaths of the city that NEVER came back.  You can still see damage that was done in 1967.  Those riots caused/started untold billions and billions in damage.  It ruined/damaged millions of lives.  It's effects go across generations.

I wasn't alive when the last big riot happened, but I grew up hearing stories of from my elders.  It had a terrible effect on everybody who went through it, rich, poor, white, black, everybody.  What was gained?  What was lost?

While the physical damage was tremendous, the worst thing was the mental/social damage that took place.  Literally millions of people left the city of Detroit, never to come back.  Those people took their knowledge, capital, business with them when they left. 

For those who don't think rioting is all that bad, can you imagine being a shop owner who loses everything they've worked for in one night?  Insurance typically does not pay out for riots/civil disturbance.  You lose everything.  Do you think that shop owner is going to be sympathetic to BLM or police brutality, or minority interests?

Do you think that shop owner is going to put their capital at risk after the riots subside?  Are they going to re-open and put their labor and capital at risk in that community?

What about respect for the rule of law? 

What about the possibility for another Covid-19 outbreak?  Here in Michigan, they media went absolutely bezerk when "right wing" protestors showed up in Lansing.  They were going to undo the weeks of lock down, the virus was going to spread.  Now there are "left wing" protestors and not a peep about Covid-19?  Why is that?  Is the virus "woke"?  It only spreads at "right wing" protests?  Why isn't the media concerned about that?

I hope other cities don't have to go through what Detroit went through.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: jamesmadison on June 04, 2020, 09:03:30 AM
The OP asked for another perspective, so here it is with some actual facts and statistics per the WSJ.  Do with them what you may:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: jamesmadison on June 04, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

I'm NOT encouraging violence, in fact I CONDEMN it - but ask yourself this - "what good comes from not looting, rioting or having violent protest, especially being marginalized by society for so long like George Floyd and countless others?"


This reminds me of the advice I was given that when you see someone say something with a "but" in the middle, ignore everything that comes before the "but".  And that I find truly offensive.  There is NO justification for the looting and violence that's occurred.  None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.  Beyond being incredibly damaging to the cause, it fundamentally frays society in incalculable ways.  Making any excuse to "burn it all down" is not acceptable.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Cigarbutt on June 04, 2020, 09:45:28 AM
hey all:
...
I hope other cities don't have to go through what Detroit went through.
Why did Detroit go through what Detroit went through?
Any insights in proximate causes?
Disclosure: A long time ago, i thought that the Kerner Commission Report contained a lot of ingredients to improve the secret sauce.
I would offer the opinion that what is unfolding is not inevitable but it may require to take the perspective of a kid growing up in a poor and segregated community.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Viking on June 04, 2020, 11:51:21 AM
Great article on the slow education of Drew Brees: his initial comment, the backlash and then his response. I think this is what is called a ‘teachable moment’ for Brees. Perhaps for others too :-)

Drew Brees Still Hasn't Learned
- https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/06/04/drew-brees-american-flag-kneeling-comments-colin-kaepernick

...Four years, and Brees apparently learned nothing. That is why he faced minimal backlash four years ago and got excoriated this week. He still claimed they are being “disrespectful” instead of understanding why they feel disrespected.

To his credit, Brees apologized Thursday: “I made comments that were insensitive and completely missed the mark on the issues we are facing right now as a country,” he wrote on Instagram. “They lacked awareness and any type of compassion or empathy.” Now Brees, one of the smartest quarterbacks in the league, can examine why he said what he did this week.

If Brees had listened with an open mind for the last four years, he would have seen that his American experience is not everyone’s. He would have realized that making anthem protests about respect for the military is just a scaled-down, philosophical version of using troops to clear out peaceful protesters. It is another way to tell people to shut up and admire the USA.

You can’t tell a group of historically oppressed people that you understand how they feel, but they have to say it on your terms. That means you don’t really understand. It means you don’t care enough. Why should Black Americans have to pause and salute Drew Brees’s grandfathers before talking about how their own relatives have been treated? Why is his family’s history more important than theirs?

Drew Brees doesn’t get to call that play. He did not seem to realize how condescending and offensive it is for a white person to tell Black people, “Hey, let’s all stand up and show unity here.”
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 04, 2020, 04:25:12 PM
I'll play devil's advocate, even though you guys know that I'm a fiscal conservative but a rabid social liberal!  I'll lay out some points as Gregmal and Cubsfan have a few more days of COBF quarantine.

- How long does it take until reparations are enough?  My own great-great-great grandparents were indentured labourers brought over from India...pretty much with no choice!
- I mean you now have an America which already had a black president. 
- 50 years ago, would anyone have listened to Oprah the way that they do today? 
- Other than a few southern counties, mixed marriages are completely acceptable and legal. 
- The U.S. is the land of opportunity, what is stopping people from pulling themselves out of poverty?  Don't most immigrant populations feel enormous racism or bigotry when they get here?  Even the Irish were considered a repulsive group by native born Americans before the civil war.  What about the Italian immigrants who lived in ghettos in New York after the civil war.
- Have reparations ever changed the long-term outlook or success of oppressed minorities?
- I can understand making an initial statement with rioting and looting, but really, do we believe the people looting these days are actual protestors?
- Malcolm X was once asked by a woman, "What can I do to help your cause?"  His response was "Nothing!"  Do we really believe anything will change?  We've barely made a dent in gun laws in the U.S., do we really think we can talk and march away racism or police brutality?
- George Floyd, Ahmed Aubrey, etc are the few exceptions, but usually the police have to deal with violent criminals and force is necessary.  Just like a white person hasn't walked in a black person's shoes, very few people have walked in a police officer's shoes.  Every day, their lives are at risk...how can they protect themselves without using force or corrective techniques in an adrenalin-filled fight with a culprit?

Cheers!  I'm sure I'll come up with more reasons as you guys answer these questions.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 04, 2020, 04:56:49 PM
Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 04, 2020, 05:21:48 PM
Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.

Yes!  I mean they weren't even put on modified duty last week, but have now been charged and the judge has set bail at $750K.  While they are all guilty, I feel a bit sorry for the cop who was directing away spectators and wasn't actually involved.  He should be charged with something, but manslaughter or murder?  Whether anyone admits it or not, there is a blue shield code where you protect your own and you don't side with others.  He was just trying to control the environment and would never have thought one of his own was killing Floyd.  Again, not making an excuse for him...but he wasn't the one on Floyd.  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: valueinvestor on June 04, 2020, 10:09:33 PM

I'm NOT encouraging violence, in fact I CONDEMN it - but ask yourself this - "what good comes from not looting, rioting or having violent protest, especially being marginalized by society for so long like George Floyd and countless others?"


This reminds me of the advice I was given that when you see someone say something with a "but" in the middle, ignore everything that comes before the "but".  And that I find truly offensive.  There is NO justification for the looting and violence that's occurred.  None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.  Beyond being incredibly damaging to the cause, it fundamentally frays society in incalculable ways.  Making any excuse to "burn it all down" is not acceptable.

So what if you're offended? Although I'm happy you had an explanation because most people say I'm offended to not acknowledge the core issue or their outright refusal to see reality.

I wasn't giving advice, or at least it's not my intent - if anyone I know is going to riot, and hell if anyone I don't know - I'm going to do my part to stop/persuade them.

In order to solve the problem, we need to see why they are rioting. Even if the statistic is true, which I find suspect at best, it doesn't solve the problem. Since people do not remember what you did for them, they only remember how you made them feel. We CAN'T simply say - there's no excuses for the behaviour... duh... there's no excuse, but just because it's not an excuse, doesn't mean there's no reason.

I was simply saying what other option do they have against a perceived tyrannical institution? Imagine if this wasn't the US, and you're in another country where you're constantly marginalized... what would you do, if you can't leave?

What about respect for the rule of law? 

What if the rule of law doesn't respect you - Chauvin (the cop who had his neck on George Floyd) had 18 internal affairs investigations against him according to the police department (even if it is half true - that's ridiculous). Imagine if it was a Black Cop or any coloured minority, do you think they would have the same treatment? It may not be a race thing, but maybe Chauvin has a long history in the town and has strings to pull, which is why he is a repeat offender.

but I think it is everyone's moral duty to try to see the truth and reality as it is.

I like the old Stoic virtues - Wisdom, Temperance, Justice and Courage

+1.


You can’t tell a group of historically oppressed people that you understand how they feel, but they have to say it on your terms. That means you don’t really understand. It means you don’t care enough. Why should Black Americans have to pause and salute Drew Brees’s grandfathers before talking about how their own relatives have been treated? Why is his family’s history more important than theirs?

Drew Brees doesn’t get to call that play. He did not seem to realize how condescending and offensive it is for a white person to tell Black people, “Hey, let’s all stand up and show unity here.”

+1

Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.

Yes!  I mean they weren't even put on modified duty last week, but have now been charged and the judge has set bail at $750K.  While they are all guilty, I feel a bit sorry for the cop who was directing away spectators and wasn't actually involved.  He should be charged with something, but manslaughter or murder?  Whether anyone admits it or not, there is a blue shield code where you protect your own and you don't side with others.  He was just trying to control the environment and would never have thought one of his own was killing Floyd.  Again, not making an excuse for him...but he wasn't the one on Floyd.  Cheers!

This is the problem, and sadly one I faced too. All I ask is that again they get a fair trial, but seeing what's happening, it may not happen. Sometimes rulings are not based on the merit of the case, which again causes the problem. Hence, the discussion because it involves them.

I'll play devil's advocate, even though you guys know that I'm a fiscal conservative but a rabid social liberal!  I'll lay out some points as Gregmal and Cubsfan have a few more days of COBF quarantine.

- How long does it take until reparations are enough?  My own great-great-great grandparents were indentured labourers brought over from India...pretty much with no choice!
- I mean you now have an America which already had a black president. 
- 50 years ago, would anyone have listened to Oprah the way that they do today? 
- Other than a few southern counties, mixed marriages are completely acceptable and legal. 
- The U.S. is the land of opportunity, what is stopping people from pulling themselves out of poverty?  Don't most immigrant populations feel enormous racism or bigotry when they get here?  Even the Irish were considered a repulsive group by native born Americans before the civil war.  What about the Italian immigrants who lived in ghettos in New York after the civil war.
- Have reparations ever changed the long-term outlook or success of oppressed minorities?
- I can understand making an initial statement with rioting and looting, but really, do we believe the people looting these days are actual protestors?
- Malcolm X was once asked by a woman, "What can I do to help your cause?"  His response was "Nothing!"  Do we really believe anything will change?  We've barely made a dent in gun laws in the U.S., do we really think we can talk and march away racism or police brutality?
- George Floyd, Ahmed Aubrey, etc are the few exceptions, but usually the police have to deal with violent criminals and force is necessary.  Just like a white person hasn't walked in a black person's shoes, very few people have walked in a police officer's shoes.  Every day, their lives are at risk...how can they protect themselves without using force or corrective techniques in an adrenalin-filled fight with a culprit?

Cheers!  I'm sure I'll come up with more reasons as you guys answer these questions.

To be clear, my answer is not a reflection of your character or views (or anyone's for that matter, especially if you're trying to be devil's advocate) - I'm simply driving the discussion forward, and hopefully, we gain insights together. However, this list of objections is something we always hear and I touched upon during my initial "remarks." Just because it happened before, why is it right now? Just because it happens to cops, again why is it right for their treatment of "alleged" criminals.

Secondly, do you really believe police officers have it worse? I believe they should be paid higher, for that amount of crap they experience, and the majority of officers are good and trying their best. However unfortunately you can't have bad cops, just like you can't have bad surgeons.

Thirdly, when someone says don't lives of cops matter? Of course, but I think they already do matter. When a person is shot, you may see a couple of officers at most, but when a COP is shot, you see the whole town turn into Alcatraz. It's something that I've seen when growing up in a less than savoury neighbourhood - although I don't have evidence for this occurring now, I wouldn't be surprised if it's still the case. So yes, All Lives Matter, but there's a reason why many are opting to post, like, share Black Lives Matter because it again covers the cop lives matter issue, covers the real issue at hand, which oddly enough, if fixed will fix the "cop lives matter" issue.


The OP asked for another perspective, so here it is with some actual facts and statistics per the WSJ.  Do with them what you may:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.


Also going back to JamesMadison post with the statistics on more unarmed white people were shot, than black people and presenting as proof is ridiculous. I don't think James was presenting as such, as he said do what you will with the statistic. However, if it was true, how would Amy Cooper know that calling the cops, describing an "African American" man, not just a man - would present as a threat to Christian Cooper (the person who she's calling the cops on).

I'm not saying we should provide preferential treatment, or equality of outcome, but rather equality of opportunity. People should have a fair trial, should have a fair shot at a job, fair shot at gaining entrace to a university (not have it taken away with bribes - lori loughlin), but sadly it's not the case. AND... Frankly considering it's 2020, we have no excuse. What excuse do we have to have this be a part of society other than tolerance, and lack of action.

Going back to old adage - “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good individuals to do nothing.”

This post is to urge anyone and everyone to do their part or at the very least be aware of the entire issue - not just one side's.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 05, 2020, 03:34:51 AM
Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.
I am worried about all four. They looks guilty now and people I respect who are far more knowledgeable than me regarding policing are condemning them, but I'm sure that Richard Jewel looked really guilty at some point too.

It would be best if people could trust the judicial system. Of course, under Trump and Bill Barr there is possibly less reason to trust the judicial system on an issue like this than at any time in the last 60 years.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 05:27:12 AM
I'm more concerned that all over the country we are seeing police departments being exposed as abusive, corrupt entities.

Here are 20 LAPD "officers" (THUGS) shooting nonlethal rounds directly at a homeless, disabled man's face:

(https://i.redd.it/dt0mybnnr1351.jpg)

Quote
“As I was being arrested for my second day in a row during peaceful protests in support of Black Lives Matter, I decided to continue taking photos until the moment right before handcuffs were put on me. Very risky, but a necessary move to expose LAPD's entirely inexcusable use of aggressive force, especially in the moments before mass arrests of peaceful protestors.

As we were being boxed in on Broadway & 5th Street to be arrested, LAPD decided that a completely unarmed homeless man in a wheelchair that had NOTHING to do with our protest was somehow a threat. They proceeded to inappropriately shoot "non-lethal" rounds directly at his face, which is against the proper procedure for firing rubber bullets.

The last image is exceptionally heart-breaking for me as you can visibly see the homeless man writhing in pain, screaming, as he spews blood from his face moments after getting shot."

Recall the countless photos and videos available from the last week of police brutality.

Police departments are being exposed nationwide. This is not "a few bad apples". And it's beyond even racism. It is corruption and brutality. It is proof that police departments nationwide systematically abuse their power when given the opportunity.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 05, 2020, 05:37:13 AM
“Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial?”

YES.

Before judging them, first you have to have some understanding of a para-military organization. Essentially, you do as you are told.
Take a closer look at the situation.

Derek Chauvin was a 19 year veteran and the senior officer - by far.

Alexander Kueng was only on his THIRD SHIFT as a police officer and Chauvin was his training officer.

Thomas Lane had been on the police force for only FOUR DAYS.

Tou Thao, simply stood near the other officers as they restrained Floyd and kept the crowd back.

In a military or para-military force you are not in a position where you question a senior officers decisions.
So are they any more guilty than the spectators who witnessed the situation? Should the person who took the video be charged? Of course not.

Now these three have been fired and will have their lives turned upside down through little fault of their own. They seem to be victims as well.
As a police chief friend said to me once, "There is very little justice in the justice system."

I am certainly not out to defend the police forces and their actions. In general I find they are way, way too militaristic. However I don't think we should lynch these three guys just because they were there. For the most part there was little difference between them and the spectators.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 05:43:19 AM
They should be held accountable. Otherwise it perpetuates the militaristic attitude that you complain of. POs should fear the consequences of abdicating their individual responsibility to “protect and serve”.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 05, 2020, 05:48:21 AM
I realize that many would like to make an example of these guys, but it is a bit of a stretch to charge guys with aiding and abetting second-degree murder, when they have only been on the force for a couple of days and took little or no active part in strangling Floyd. Why not charge the spectators too?.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 05:53:34 AM
Are you seriously asking why spectators would be hesitant to jump on a PO who is mid-arrest and killing someone?

First, it’s illegal to interfere with an arrest. Second, there’s a wave of police brutality sweeping the nation.

Imagine what any of those 3 cops would have done if someone dove on Chauvin. The spectator be lucky to escape the situation alive.

Fellow cops on the other hand are empowered physically, legally, and morally to manage these situations.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 05, 2020, 05:53:40 AM
I'm more concerned that all over the country we are seeing police departments being exposed as abusive, corrupt entities.

Here are 20 LAPD "officers" (THUGS) shooting nonlethal rounds directly at a homeless, disabled man's face:

(https://i.redd.it/dt0mybnnr1351.jpg)

Quote
“As I was being arrested for my second day in a row during peaceful protests in support of Black Lives Matter, I decided to continue taking photos until the moment right before handcuffs were put on me. Very risky, but a necessary move to expose LAPD's entirely inexcusable use of aggressive force, especially in the moments before mass arrests of peaceful protestors.

As we were being boxed in on Broadway & 5th Street to be arrested, LAPD decided that a completely unarmed homeless man in a wheelchair that had NOTHING to do with our protest was somehow a threat. They proceeded to inappropriately shoot "non-lethal" rounds directly at his face, which is against the proper procedure for firing rubber bullets.

The last image is exceptionally heart-breaking for me as you can visibly see the homeless man writhing in pain, screaming, as he spews blood from his face moments after getting shot."

Recall the countless photos and videos available from the last week of police brutality.

Police departments are being exposed nationwide. This is not "a few bad apples". And it's beyond even racism. It is corruption and brutality. It is proof that police departments nationwide systematically abuse their power when given the opportunity.
I am not surprised.

The language of Trump is dehumanizing. When you dehumanize someone, it becomes much easier to commit atrocities against them.

Trump has been working hard to build allegiance with law enforcement organizations around the county. Some members of police are not that bright (average or below only by design in many cases https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836), many feel maligned by the left, and then they have Trump filling their heads with propaganda. Add to that that many of them may feel protestors are putting their lives at risk through Coronavirus and we have a very dangerous situation that the President seems to be enjoying.

At the same time, the radical left has been dehumanizing cops, and we see an increase in attacks on cops, which just makes the situation worse.

Here's a summary of the situation:
-Some cops are dangerous, or unfit for duty and should be fired or prosecuted.
-Police wield enormous power and should be held to a higher standard.
-In all organizations there is the temptation to cover up for your coworkers or to feel allegiance to those on your team.
-The solutions are not that simple or they likely would have already been implemented.
-Some easy improvements likely have not been implemented due to a resistance to change.
-Terrible leadership at many levels is making all of this worse.
-There are actors on the left, on the right and foreign actors who want to make this worse through violence and social media disinformation.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 05, 2020, 06:03:16 AM
"Are you seriously asking why spectators would be hesitant to jump on a PO who is mid-arrest and killing someone?"

No. I am simply trying to point out that a guy who has been on the police force for four days or three shifts is not really in a position to jump on his senior officer and drag him off the guy being arrested. Because he did not do that, he is being charged with aiding and abetting second degree murder. You just do not do that in a military organization. Do I think the police are too militaristic? Absolutely. Do I think that needs to be changed. Of course.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 06:12:36 AM
Yea but you’re having it both ways. You claim police should be held to a higher standard but then add conditions to that.

What if Chauvin was the one fresh out of academy? Would that be ok since he was still green?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 05, 2020, 07:43:05 AM
Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.
Not really. In fact I would be surprised if even Chauvin does any serious time. Remember Baltimore?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 09:07:12 AM
Apologies for the caps in title:

POLICE OFFICER TELLS PROUD BOYS TO HIDE INSIDE BUILDING BECAUSE THEY'RE ABOUT TO TEAR GAS PROTESTERS. THE OFFICER SAID HE WAS WARNING THEM "DISCREETLY" BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT PROTESTERS TO SEE POLICE "PLAY FAVORITES."

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gx3dur/police_officer_tells_proud_boys_to_hide_inside/

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 05, 2020, 09:32:38 AM
Apologies for the caps in title:

POLICE OFFICER TELLS PROUD BOYS TO HIDE INSIDE BUILDING BECAUSE THEY'RE ABOUT TO TEAR GAS PROTESTERS. THE OFFICER SAID HE WAS WARNING THEM "DISCREETLY" BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT PROTESTERS TO SEE POLICE "PLAY FAVORITES."

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gx3dur/police_officer_tells_proud_boys_to_hide_inside/
You have to admit it would be a great two-faced de-escalation tactic to go say the same thing to both sides. I have no idea what was going on here, but I have essentially seen that done before. As nutty and hateful as some people on both sides might be, faking a bit of solidarity might be a good option for getting everyone to go home without violence.

I've heard mediators say they have to walk a line between making someone believe that they are on their side and sympathetic to their interests and making everyone believe that they are fair and impartial. If it were me an the other side were armed, I'd probably try to find a respectful tone instead of pulling some Donald Trump style insults. You'll notice the big brave Trump never does that to people's face. In person he is generally flattering, complementary or deferential.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 10:57:45 AM
RTF - I sincerely hope you're right as it would mean the police are attempting to de-escalate these situations from becoming even worse. My concern is that "even worse" here means "even worse than the police themselves beating/tear gassing protesters".

At this point the police depts have very little credibility and they need to earn any credibility back. Hopefully as you say this was one of their attempts to do so.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 05, 2020, 11:03:08 AM
RTF - I sincerely hope you're right as it would mean the police are attempting to de-escalate these situations from becoming even worse. My concern is that "even worse" here means "even worse than the police themselves beating/tear gassing protesters".

At this point the police depts have very little credibility and they need to earn any credibility back. Hopefully as you say this was one of their attempts to do so.
I'm not willing to spend time on this incident because there are many others to choose from, but I'm guessing that there's little to go on if I did fall down the rabbit hole of a link provided. As a result I'm not sure there's anyway for me to know now which is the truth, but we do know that the court of public opinion seems very quick to convict people on scant and misleading evidence.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 11:06:12 AM
Oh I agree - I only posted it because it is slightly different in the fact that it shows PDs can de-escalate (to certain groups, I suppose) and are therefore choosing not to.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 05, 2020, 12:12:19 PM
Oh I agree - I only posted it because it is slightly different in the fact that it shows PDs can de-escalate (to certain groups, I suppose) and are therefore choosing not to.
They are much more likely to de-escalate when facing superior firepower. There are lots of interesting stories from Miami in the 1980s.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 01:05:54 PM
Yep, which goes to the point earlier that there is a pattern of police abusing their power when given the opportunity.

Once the opportunity is taken away, suddenly they behave like partners of the community.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 05, 2020, 01:15:10 PM
Yea but you’re having it both ways. You claim police should be held to a higher standard but then add conditions to that.

What if Chauvin was the one fresh out of academy? Would that be ok since he was still green?

I am just pointing out that there is a big difference between a cop with 19 years experience who killed someone and someone who didnt do anything and has 4 DAYS experience as a police officer and his last job was working at Mcdonalds.

I just think that It is just a little extreme to charge him with a high crime. If he had been on the force for a number of years than it might be a little different.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 05, 2020, 01:53:24 PM
Yea but you’re having it both ways. You claim police should be held to a higher standard but then add conditions to that.

What if Chauvin was the one fresh out of academy? Would that be ok since he was still green?

I am just pointing out that there is a big difference between a cop with 19 years experience who killed someone and someone who didnt do anything and has 4 DAYS experience as a police officer and his last job was working at Mcdonalds.

I just think that It is just a little extreme to charge him with a high crime. If he had been on the force for a number of years than it might be a little different.
I hear Korean Airlines is hiring co-pilots. So that's an option for them if policing doesn't work out.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 01:54:58 PM
I wish I could be sympathetic. Actually, I wish the police were as sympathetic to black people as you are to these 3 cops.

This is not really directed at you, but the question is what message would that send? Why are black suspects forced to follow every exact letter of police direction, but the police are not required the same?

For example, I've seen video footage of cops pulling over a black guy. Traffic stop. He has a permitted gun in his car, which he informs the police of. The cops ask him to hand them the weapon. He does and the second he touches the gun, they shoot him dead. Bait and switch, fatally.

Until these people are granted benefit of the doubt and leniency in their interactions with cops, the cops should be shown zero benefit of the doubt in their interactions with civilians (in my opinion). That credibility/trust has been lost, which is admittedly a shame, but police departments destroyed their own reputations.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 05, 2020, 02:01:09 PM
At the risk of being a little spammy on this topic, here's the updated list of reported police aggression incidents during these protests:

Quote
firing something at innocent person on their porch:

https://streamable.com/u2jzoo

cop appearing to be enjoying himself today:

https://v.redd.it/jjclrdzp8x151 https://tuckbot.tv/#/watch/gtg2cb

cop shooting something at guy for saying "fuck you":

https://v.redd.it/zepg0b43ly151 https://tuckbot.tv/#/watch/gtksgq

cops breaking supplies for peaceful protestors:

https://v.redd.it/v8x8isj0xz151 https://tuckbot.tv/#/watch/gtpc0l

nypd driving into protestors:

https://v.redd.it/mztm15kh00251 https://gfycat.com/misguidedrecklesscod https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/04/new-york-police-brutality-protests-george-floyd

cops shoving an old dude to the ground:

https://v.redd.it/bluggpblrz151

police actively seeking out fights compilation:

https://v.redd.it/m82yxl4qh0251 https://tuckbot.tv/#/watch/gtr02f

Columbus PD driving at people aggressively on a campus:

https://v.redd.it/ngxvkoro60251 https://tuckbot.tv/#/watch/gtq7i4

cop shooting rubber bullets at people watching from apartment:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Sarah_Mojarad/status/1266633046591078400?s=09

police shooting the press with rubber bullets:

https://v.redd.it/o3v8ps7rat151

police arresting a CNN reporter:

https://v.redd.it/yce9bpk8mo151

police doing a drive-by pepper spraying

https://mobile.twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1266193926316228609

photographer being pepper sprayed:

https://i.redd.it/4ix8f3j6dy151.jpg

guy with hands in the air gets his mask ripped off and pepper sprayed:

https://v.redd.it/wlx0gyoe21251

lady who was coming home with groceries who got a rubber bullet to the head:

https://i.redd.it/ns0uj557x0251.jpg

https://mobile.twitter.com/KevinRKrause/status/1266898396339675137

reporter blinded by rubber bullets:

https://mobile.twitter.com/KillerMartinis/status/1266618525600399361?s=19

reporter describes getting tear gassed:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mollyhf/status/1266911382613692422

couple getting yanked out of their car and tased for violating curfew:

https://mobile.twitter.com/GAFollowers/status/1266919104574865410?s=19

young woman gets shoved to the ground by officer:

https://mobile.twitter.com/whitney_hu/status/1266540710188195843?s=20

reporter sheltering in gas station is pepper sprayed: https://twitter.com/MichaelAdams317

reporter trying to get home gets window shot out: https://twitter.com/JaredGoyette/status/1266961243476299778

cops come at a guy for filming a police car burning:

https://twitter.com/johncusack/status/1266953514242228229

photographer arrested:

https://youtu.be/9wgkGLmphLE

Columbus police assaulting protestors:

https://twitter.com/KRobPhoto/status/1266796191469252610

congresswoman sprayed with pepper spray during protest:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/30/politics/joyce-beatty-ohio-pepper-sprayed-columbus-protest/index.html

7 protesters fired on with rubber bullets:

https://v.redd.it/tal1ncha4o151

cops pepper spraying a group of protestors without provocation

https://v.redd.it/0dxnkso0a1251

young child allegedly pepper sprayed:

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/video-shows-milk-poured-over-face-of-child-pepper-sprayed-in-seattle-protest

horse tramples young woman, police investigating:

https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2020/05/30/watch-video-captures-moment-police-horse-tramples-woman-during-houston-rally/

cop pushes protestor with his bike

https://twitter.com/ava/status/1266797973834395648?s=20

Reuters reporters detail being shot at with rubber bullets:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-protest-update/reuters-cameraman-hit-by-rubber-bullets-as-police-disperse-protesters-idUSKBN237050

man pepper sprayed as he watches from his second floor apartment balcony (at 13s)

https://v.redd.it/l0yq3023p2251

Sarasota cop kneels on man's neck

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/region-sarasota-manatee/sarasota-officer-on-administrative-leave-after-kneeling-on-mans-neck-during-arrest-police-say

Cop suspended for kneeing protester

https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/breakingnews/story/2020/jun/01/florida-police-officer-suspended-pushing-kneeling-woman/524327/#.XtXZVttmsD8.reddit

NY Congressman Zellnor Myrnie pepper sprayed and handcuffed peacefully protesting

https://i.redd.it/k7k6ghqpmz151.jpg

Austin PD shoots 16 year old in the head (graphic)

https://youtu.be/-BGyTi-KdKc

Woman shot between the eyes by a rubber sniper

https://www.google.com/amp/s/timesofsandiego.com/crime/2020/06/02/family-of-woman-shot-in-face-by-police-rubber-bullet-calls-for-swift-justice/amp/

Seattle PD "Hit 'em HARD"

https://mobile.twitter.com/bjiaax/status/1268013233320931330?s=09

Seattle PD Blindsides protester

https://mobile.twitter.com/EDDIFUL/status/1267338642617364481?s=09

Asheville PD desyroys medic station

https://i.redd.it/7c2o4u6s3q251.jpg https://mobile.twitter.com/daveth89/status/1267974555332685824?s=20

Seatle bard arrested

https://reddit.app.link/ESUvJt7I16

Woman shot in the face

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrhEhWcD1JU

LA Sheriff's Departmemt drive by shooting

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/03/la-sheriffs-deputies-drive-by-rubber-bullets-protesters/

Baytown Police arrest man for questioning them

https://abc13.com/baytown-police-brutality-use-of-force-black-lives-matter/6229826/

Toddler tear gassed whose family was stuck in their car

https://wpta21.com/2020/05/31/toddler-tear-gassed-photo-goes-viral/

Here's Cincinnati police refusing a diabetic access to her insulin and then laughing at them

https://www.reddit.com/r/cincinnati/comments/gvur2k/t1_diabetic_here_im_trying_to_report_this_officer/

Cop pepper spraying kneeling protesters directly in the face.

https://twitter.com/d0wnrrrrr/status/1267691766188310528?s=19

Police telling man who says he can't breathe, "that shit don't work here"

https://twitter.com/_scarea/status/1267835854208335872?s=19

Cincinnati police spray a black man directly in the face who is talking to another officer with his hands in the air

https://twitter.com/JakeTalks2Much/status/1266902493151334401?s=19

NYPD trapping protesters on the Manhattan Bridge

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1268017382045495308?s=19

Fireworks and teargas shot directly at Seattle news crew

https://www.thewrap.com/watch-msnbc-reporter-struck-by-fireworks-while-reporting-on-george-floyd-protests-in-seattle-video/

Police wantonly pepper spray, teargas, and flashbang a peaceful crowd after an officer starts pulling on a protesters umbrella

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/02/43818002/slog-am-police-pepper-spray-protesters-over-pink-umbrella-escalating-fourth-day-of-police-brutality-protests

eargas, flashbangs and rubber bullets used to disperse peaceful DC crowd so Trump can do a photo opp in front of a church

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/06/01/white-house-protesters-donald-trump-white-speech-sot-vpx.cnn

California SWAT "if you do not move, you will be dead"

https://www.reddit.com/r/N_N_N/comments/gvpe5t/if_you_do_not_move_you_will_be_dead_swat/

Police destroying water bottles left out for protesters

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvm5ao/dont_let_rhydrohomies_see_this_police_brutality/

Police trap protesters on both sides of a street and fire tear gas and shoot pepper balls (Warning this one could trigger some, it's pretty scary)

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvlgkc/police_have_trapped_protesters_in_a_parking/

Police come outside their department building to fire on peaceful protesters

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvmqw0/police_coming_out_of_their_department_building_to/

NYPD caught saying "run them over" and "shoot the motherfuckers" on police scanner

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvj3ib/let_me_put_this_out_there_this_was_over_the_nypd/

Police assault and choke a man who's not resisting. They arrested him because they thought his cellphone was a gun.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvi7zn/policemen_assault_and_choke_a_man_because_they/

Police fake kneeling to draw crowd closer then gas them

https://twitter.com/80SREDKY/status/1267961620921298944?s=19

Compton police beating the hell out of a man in custody

https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/1268044276442619910?s=19

Cops arrest kneeling black man making heartfelt plea about how he loves them and we're all in this together (Definitely the worst video that doesn't actually contain violence)

https://twitter.com/BrendanClancy/status/1267554576355426306?s=09

Cops SAVAGELY beat peaceful protesters with batons

https://twitter.com/robwhisman/status/1268044669578956800?s=09

Chicago cop calls protester a "fucking faggot"

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvnu8l/chicago_cop_calls_protestor_fuing_faot_happy/

Philly police needlessly spray people walking home and man recording from his house

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvp2vn/philly_police_needlessly_pepper_spray_people/

NYPD refusing to grant protesters access to subway so they can get home before curfew

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut/comments/gvlf7w/nypd_refusing_to_let_protesters_into_the_subway/

Peaceful protesters shot in back of head and in critical condition (warning: graphic)

https://www.reddit.com/r/2020PoliceBrutality/comments/gvjie2/peaceful_protestor_shot_in_the_back_of_the_head/

Portland police fire tear gas and rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd clearly containing children

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvnxug/portland_security_forces_attacked_a_crowd_of/

Cop grabs woman's breast then tase, shoot, and club her after she instinctly pulls away

https://streamable.com/6grzbl

DC cops breaking up peaceful protest for Trump photo op hits man in head with riot shield (warning graphic)

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvpxr5/nsfl_hit_by_shield_blood_gushes_out_of_head/

Longer video of 16 year old shot in head by Austin police (warning: graphic)

https://youtu.be/-BGyTi-KdKc

Cops fire into peaceful crowd in Hollywood

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvlt6s/cop_fires_in_to_a_crowd_of_peaceful_protestors_in/

Longer video of diabetic Cincinnati resident showing police pulling them out of a car as they tried to get home before curfew

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvy3wg/cops_tell_protesters_to_leave_because_of/

Cops smash car windows, assault, and arrest family

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gvwjo8/innocent_family_brutalized_by_police/

Longer video of Charlotte PD herding and trapping peaceful protesters down city street then gassing them. (Warning: not graphic but potentially disturbing)

Bike cop tackles man walking down the street

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gv9g5n/the_police_were_spotted_instigating_violence/

Asheville police destroyed a medical tent and attacked doctors. Attacking medical personnel is an international war crime

https://twitter.com/daveth89/status/1267974555332685824?s=19

Raleigh police fire at the owner and employees of an lgbtq friendly bar who were giving out food, water, and supplying medical attention

https://twitter.com/bennykoval/status/1267325857892368384?s=19

"What's going to happen at 8?" "We're going to beat the fuck out of you."

https://twitter.com/ajitxsingh/status/1267533879797149696?s=19

Police fire teargas at car stopped at light. Driver yells at cops his pregnant girlfriend is inside. They open fire

https://twitter.com/ajitxsingh/status/1267533879797149696?s=19

Chicago PD attack mall goer in parking lot

https://blockclubchicago.org/2020/06/04/in-vicious-police-attack-of-black-woman-outside-of-northwest-side-mall-family-demands-criminal-investigation-it-has-to-stop/

LAPD striking protesters with battons

https://abc13.com/baytown-police-brutality-use-of-force-black-lives-matter/6229826/

Homeless man shot in the face

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/gx20pi/lapd_shoots_homeless_man_in_the_face_with/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Chicago PD flipping off protesters

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/gwubbx/chicago_police_officer_flipping_off_protestors_in/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Buffalo Police cause a concussion

https://abc13.com/baytown-police-brutality-use-of-force-black-lives-matter/6229826/

Police refuse to identify officer that shot Australian news crew

https://wtop.com/dc/2020/06/police-union-will-not-id-officer-in-australian-tv-crew-attack/

Hernando County Commissioner admins violent, racist facebook group

https://www.wmnf.org/racist-facebook-administered-hernando-county-commissioner/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Jurgis on June 05, 2020, 02:08:20 PM
LC, thanks for posting the updated list.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 05, 2020, 05:27:31 PM
“Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial?”

YES.

Before judging them, first you have to have some understanding of a para-military organization. Essentially, you do as you are told.
Take a closer look at the situation.

Derek Chauvin was a 19 year veteran and the senior officer - by far.

Alexander Kueng was only on his THIRD SHIFT as a police officer and Chauvin was his training officer.

Thomas Lane had been on the police force for only FOUR DAYS.

Tou Thao, simply stood near the other officers as they restrained Floyd and kept the crowd back.

In a military or para-military force you are not in a position where you question a senior officers decisions.
So are they any more guilty than the spectators who witnessed the situation? Should the person who took the video be charged? Of course not.

Now these three have been fired and will have their lives turned upside down through little fault of their own. They seem to be victims as well.
As a police chief friend said to me once, "There is very little justice in the justice system."

I am certainly not out to defend the police forces and their actions. In general I find they are way, way too militaristic. However I don't think we should lynch these three guys just because they were there. For the most part there was little difference between them and the spectators.

I don’t know the back ground (or lack thereof) of 3/4 officers involved. While I don’t condone what happened there, I can sort of understand why they didn’t interfere with Chauvin’s actions. I have some sympathy for someone who is just 4 days of a job and sees 19 year old veterans deal with a situation that you have never seen before. Doesn’t make it right, but I would judge it as a murder either.

There is more that could be said, but overall, it would be lenient on individuals where it makes sense and tough on processes and circumstances that lead to this outcome.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 06, 2020, 02:43:37 AM
“Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial?”

YES.

Before judging them, first you have to have some understanding of a para-military organization. Essentially, you do as you are told.
Take a closer look at the situation.

Derek Chauvin was a 19 year veteran and the senior officer - by far.

Alexander Kueng was only on his THIRD SHIFT as a police officer and Chauvin was his training officer.

Thomas Lane had been on the police force for only FOUR DAYS.

Tou Thao, simply stood near the other officers as they restrained Floyd and kept the crowd back.

In a military or para-military force you are not in a position where you question a senior officers decisions.
So are they any more guilty than the spectators who witnessed the situation? Should the person who took the video be charged? Of course not.

Now these three have been fired and will have their lives turned upside down through little fault of their own. They seem to be victims as well.
As a police chief friend said to me once, "There is very little justice in the justice system."

I am certainly not out to defend the police forces and their actions. In general I find they are way, way too militaristic. However I don't think we should lynch these three guys just because they were there. For the most part there was little difference between them and the spectators.

I don’t know the back ground (or lack thereof) of 3/4 officers involved. While I don’t condone what happened there, I can sort of understand why they didn’t interfere with Chauvin’s actions. I have some sympathy for someone who is just 4 days of a job and sees 19 year old veterans deal with a situation that you have never seen before. Doesn’t make it right, but I would judge it as a murder either.

There is more thet could be said, but overall, it would be lenient on individuals where it makes sense and tough on processes and circumstances that lead to this outcome.
I have sympathy too, but I have to wonder what their training would have told them about the behavior of Chauvin.

We are all at risk of being collaborators going forward. I suggest everyone read the following piece shared by Liberty and think about the broader societal implications, including your own choices.

https://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/politics/must-read-piece-by-anne-applebaum/

I mentioned Korean Air co-pilots jokingly earlier, but it is important to realize that when you don't speak up against what you know is wrong, you become a collaborator or you are complicit. There is some debate over how accurate the Maclolm Gladwell "Cockpit Culture Theory" of the Korean Air story is, but I think we can all recognize that culture matters and that very senior people can rationalize or become habituated to very dangerous or inappropriate behavior.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 06, 2020, 07:15:26 AM
Yep, which goes to the point earlier that there is a pattern of police abusing their power when given the opportunity.

Once the opportunity is taken away, suddenly they behave like partners of the community.

Yes, just look at how the 'guards' behaved in the 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: valueinvestor on June 06, 2020, 08:05:11 AM
This is not "a few bad apples". And it's beyond even racism. It is corruption and brutality. It is proof that police departments nationwide systematically abuse their power when given the opportunity.

I think this is the forest that's not seen beyond the trees.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Cigarbutt on June 06, 2020, 08:10:59 AM
...
I have sympathy too, but I have to wonder what their training would have told them about the behavior of Chauvin.
We are all at risk of being collaborators going forward. I suggest everyone read the following piece shared by Liberty and think about the broader societal implications, including your own choices.
https://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/politics/must-read-piece-by-anne-applebaum/
...
"The south has marvelous possibilities, yet in spite of these assets, segregation has placed the whole south socially, educationally, and economically behind the rest of the nation. Yet, in the white south there are millions of people of goodwill whose voices are yet unheard, whose course is yet unclear, and whose courageous acts are yet unseen. These millions are called upon to gird their courage to speak out, to offer leadership that is needed. History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition, was not the vitriolic words and violent actions of the bad people, but the appalling silence and indifference of the good people. Our generation will have to repent not only for the words and acts of the children of darkness but also for the fears and apathy of the children of light."   MLK 1965

Making money has always been high on the list, I guess pretty much like most people on this Board who may also have deep pockets and influence.

Looking back in history, it’s often been some kind of mystery as to why certain paths were taken. Living through one of those periods just makes this phenomenon eerier. The recent drift has been characterized by various levels of potential underestimation and it seems that an already baked-in-the-cake significant economic deterioration will only tend to accelerate the trajectory.

Actions carry heavier than words and this Board may not be the ideal forum for such words but sometimes trivial things may be all it takes and words then cannot be devoid of any utility.

So why do it? Because it’s simply the right thing to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_VxuOmxdsg
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 06, 2020, 08:43:57 AM
The Federal Government is doing nothing here to defend our 1st Amendment rights to protest.  The local governments have taken it away through curfews and violent and brutal police intimidation.  Rather than demand that they stop, Trump calls them pussies and says that if they don't do more of it he'll bring in the military.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: longinvestor on June 06, 2020, 10:13:06 AM
Thank goodness for smartphones. I hope those outraged and also living near police activity organize volunteer “neighborhood watch” groups to make certain that someone is always present each time when the sirens go off.

Something that has been rankling me since dufus occupied the White House in 2016. Clearly he got there as a result of the visceral hatred of Obama amongst some of his base. Part of me says that Obama represented a turning point in America but it was largely symbolic in one sense. Nothing could have made me prouder as an American meeting folks from Europe and Asia in disbelief when Obama was in the White House. I wonder if his time would have been a truer and not just symbolic turning point after 100’s more cell phone videos have gone viral. Some real emancipation has the chance to happen without the stonewalling he did face from Congress!

Thoughts?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Vish_ram on June 06, 2020, 10:21:58 AM
It is very heart warming to see people across many races express solidarity for BLM.

Just like in Germany during 3rd Reich, there were many Germans who helped Jews, it seems we have good Americans who want to stop police brutality. The Gestapos in the LEO should be weeded out. This is a major threat to the US Democracy. when you turn a blind eye, you are supporting the Gestapos
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 06, 2020, 10:41:39 AM
The Federal Government is doing nothing here to defend our 1st Amendment rights to protest.  The local governments have taken it away through curfews and violent and brutal police intimidation.  Rather than demand that they stop, Trump calls them pussies and says that if they don't do more of it he'll bring in the military.
I have no problem with curfews. At this point violent confrontations, looting, and rioting do more to help Trump than BLM or anyone else.

The rest of Trump's behavior you mention is abhorrent.

Here's another reason that hasn't been mentioned much. Police have good reason to be afraid on the job. It is a high risk job. I would likely have some amount of fear on a regular basis if I were a police officer. I would probably have even greater fear now with a Pandemic and a divisive President.

A president that stokes and encourages fears regarding what are likely low probability risks to officers is going to get people hurt or killed. The primary reason for most of these police crimes is actually that the officer was scared. Most of them are mistakes made out of fear. So not only is Trump encouraging the jack booted thugs to commit crimes by viewing or fellow citizens as the enemy, he is also scaring the well meaning officer in to making a mistake out of fear.

In many cases its probably not that easy to tell the difference between an officer's mistake and a crime. There aren't many in society that are encouraging patience and cooler heads at this point. The more outrageously the left responds to these provocations, the more Trump cements his relationship with his base.

Trump representing himself, and he is only concerned about the way his base votes at this point. So the math is pretty easy to see that he is happy to create officer violence (whether by hate or mistake) and he may hope for protester violence in response as long as it helps stengthhen his eroding base.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 06, 2020, 10:42:43 AM
It is very heart warming to see people across many races express solidarity for BLM.

Just like in Germany during 3rd Reich, there were many Germans who helped Jews, it seems we have good Americans who want to stop police brutality. The Gestapos in the LEO should be weeded out. This is a major threat to the US Democracy. when you turn a blind eye, you are supporting the Gestapos
I am pleased with the number of people who are talking about not wanting to be complicit with this administration. I think that is the only thing that stands between us and a very dark place.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 06, 2020, 11:56:45 AM
Interesting stats about how dangerous it is to be a cop. Being a cop doesn’t even crack the top ten list in the list of the top ten. Many other jobs like roofers or even farmers have  a much higher risk. Interesting enough, the most dangerous job is being president, due to assassination risk.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-dangerous-is-police-w_b_6373798 (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-dangerous-is-police-w_b_6373798)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 06, 2020, 12:18:45 PM
Interesting stats about how dangerous it is to be a cop. Being a cop doesn’t even crack the top ten list in thrnlsitmofnthrmmost den got us jobs with roofers or even farmers haven’t a much higher risk.. Interesting enough, the most dangerous job is being president, due to assassination risk.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-dangerous-is-police-w_b_6373798 (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-dangerous-is-police-w_b_6373798)
Yes. Cops are more at risk from automobile related injuries than anything else.

Of course, part of that is likely because they underestimate the risk related to autos and overestimate the risk of being a victim of violence.

On the other hand, for officers, listening to Trump speak these days is the equivalent of having to watch Sharknado over and over again. If I watched Sharknado enough I'd probably be afraid to leave the house, much less go for a swim.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 06, 2020, 01:24:14 PM
The Federal Government is doing nothing here to defend our 1st Amendment rights to protest.  The local governments have taken it away through curfews and violent and brutal police intimidation.  Rather than demand that they stop, Trump calls them pussies and says that if they don't do more of it he'll bring in the military.
I have no problem with curfews. At this point violent confrontations, looting, and rioting do more to help Trump than BLM or anyone else.

The rest of Trump's behavior you mention is abhorrent.

The curfews were thrown in there a little tongue in cheek, and a little Devil’s advocacy.

The violence is a public safety and property safety issue.

Covid spread is also a public safety issue.  However when churches were ordered closed it became a Constitutional issue.  There is some hypocrisy here.  Where looting is illegal, peaceful protest is not but gets banned under curfew hours.

Some areas with curfews are simply anticipating that their cities will have looting.

The curfews appear to lead to increased violence anyhow, and in response many are lifting them.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 06, 2020, 01:47:10 PM
The police are not merely using force in responding to threats of harm against them.  An old man was assaulted and the entire group of officers resigned in disgust from the task force because they believe shoving the old peaceful man was justified.  You can see many of them continue to just walk past him on the ground as if he isn’t there.  No empathy shown.

That scene and a host of others in this compilation.
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/police-brutality-plagues-protests-against-police-brutality-84557893824

An officer lifts a docile man’s mask so that he can mace him in the face. 

A woman on the ground beaten with a nightstick.

This is outrageous.  All of these officers should be fired at minimum as well as face assault charges.  One was merely assigned desk duty.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 06, 2020, 01:51:09 PM
The Federal Government is doing nothing here to defend our 1st Amendment rights to protest.  The local governments have taken it away through curfews and violent and brutal police intimidation.  Rather than demand that they stop, Trump calls them pussies and says that if they don't do more of it he'll bring in the military.
I have no problem with curfews. At this point violent confrontations, looting, and rioting do more to help Trump than BLM or anyone else.

The rest of Trump's behavior you mention is abhorrent.

The curfews were thrown in there a little tongue in cheek, and a little Devil’s advocacy.

The violence is a public safety and property safety issue.

Covid spread is also a public safety issue.  However when churches were ordered closed it became a Constitutional issue.  There is some hypocrisy here.  Where looting is illegal, peaceful protest is not but gets banned under curfew hours.

Some areas with curfews are simply anticipating that their cities will have looting.

The curfews appear to lead to increased violence anyhow, and in response many are lifting them.
You make some good arguments here.

The counterargument is that we are still in the midst of a pandemic. Though I think it is good to be suspicious and to question much if not all of what is going on especially if the Trump administration is involved, I am willing to be a little more generous about curfews because there a lot of public health things still going on that the public is not fully apprised of. Also, some cities and towns had curfews in place when there was no unrest, and no protests and George Floyd was still alive. Our critical services only have so much capacity and have been dealing with a lot strange issues for some time and now some cities and towns are facing budget crises.

It is also interesting that today the protests are full of people wearing face coverings due to the pandemic. Normally a person wearing a face covering at a protest might be suspected to be more likely to engage in antisocial behavior of some type and in fact before SARS-NCoV-2 face coverings at demonstrations were banned in some places due to violent elements that were in attendance. Whether you agree with that tactic or not under normal times, today I am more likely to be concerned about people NOT wearing face coverings at a peaceful daytime demonstration. I am guessing the police to not want to draw attention to this problem and would prefer to try imposing curfews or other attempts to discourage violence and looting.

We are all in this together, although some people are trying to get us to forget that fact.

Curfews are also likely being lifted because they were not necessary in those location.

I'm curious your thoughts on the churches and what you think the issues are there.

This is probably tangential to your point, but as an aside, here's something I find interesting about religion at this moment. I have certainly seen some images of religious services that make me very worried for the participants, and make me wish the services could have at least been held outside. It's also interesting that a lot of religious services are based very much around rituals, habits, traditions, and ceremonies. I wonder if those rituals and habits are actually more resistant to change and therefore put people at risk just because some behaviors may be more difficult to change than others. It almost seems like some people who have changed their habits regarding distancing, face coverings and fomites suddenly change their behavior and revert to their religious practices without any new adaptations.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 06, 2020, 02:13:38 PM
The Federal Government is doing nothing here to defend our 1st Amendment rights to protest.  The local governments have taken it away through curfews and violent and brutal police intimidation.  Rather than demand that they stop, Trump calls them pussies and says that if they don't do more of it he'll bring in the military.
I have no problem with curfews. At this point violent confrontations, looting, and rioting do more to help Trump than BLM or anyone else.

The rest of Trump's behavior you mention is abhorrent.

The curfews were thrown in there a little tongue in cheek, and a little Devil’s advocacy.

The violence is a public safety and property safety issue.

Covid spread is also a public safety issue.  However when churches were ordered closed it became a Constitutional issue.  There is some hypocrisy here.  Where looting is illegal, peaceful protest is not but gets banned under curfew hours.

Some areas with curfews are simply anticipating that their cities will have looting.

The curfews appear to lead to increased violence anyhow, and in response many are lifting them.
You make some good arguments here.

The counterargument is that we are still in the midst of a pandemic. Though I think it is good to be suspicious and to question much if not all of what is going on especially if the Trump administration is involved, I am willing to be a little more generous about curfews because there a lot of public health things still going on that the public is not fully apprised of. Also, some cities and towns had curfews in place when there was no unrest, and no protests and George Floyd was still alive. Our critical services only have so much capacity and have been dealing with a lot strange issues for some time and now some cities and towns are facing budget crises.

It is also interesting that today the protests are full of people wearing face coverings due to the pandemic. Normally a person wearing a face covering at a protest might be suspected to be more likely to engage in antisocial behavior of some type and in fact before SARS-NCoV-2 face coverings at demonstrations were banned in some places due to violent elements that were in attendance. Whether you agree with that tactic or not under normal times, today I am more likely to be concerned about people NOT wearing face coverings at a peaceful daytime demonstration. I am guessing the police to not want to draw attention to this problem and would prefer to try imposing curfews or other attempts to discourage violence and looting.

We are all in this together, although some people are trying to get us to forget that fact.

Curfews are also likely being lifted because they were not necessary in those location.

I'm curious your thoughts on the churches and what you think the issues are there.

This is probably tangential to your point, but as an aside, here's something I find interesting about religion at this moment. I have certainly seen some images of religious services that make me very worried for the participants, and make me wish the services could have at least been held outside. It's also interesting that a lot of religious services are based very much around rituals, habits, traditions, and ceremonies. I wonder if those rituals and habits are actually more resistant to change and therefore put people at risk just because some behaviors may be more difficult to change than others. It almost seems like some people who have changed their habits regarding distancing, face coverings and fomites suddenly change their behavior and revert to their religious practices without any new adaptations.

I am not religious, and nor am I a Constitutional scholar.  I am left at a loss to explain why services cannot be held via a Zoom meeting.  True, services could be held outside but then again it can rain.

There was a priest in the news saying that online services were perfectly acceptable during the pandemic.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 06, 2020, 02:16:11 PM
I think what we've been seeing from the police behavior over the past days shows that the few bad apples thing is total bullshit. What we've seen is that there is no shortage of bad apples.

One would also think that police responding with brutality to protests about police brutality is not the most intelligent thing to do. Maybe that's why we have so many "how many cops does it take" jokes. But actually I think they do it because they can and because they don't care. They don't care because they know that nothing's gonna happen to them, there will be no repercussions.

It seems that police departments are no longer accountable if they ever were. That's what needs to change.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 06, 2020, 02:49:19 PM
The police are not merely using force in responding to threats of harm against them.  An old man was assaulted and the entire group of officers resigned in disgust from the task force because they believe shoving the old peaceful man was justified.  You can see many of them continue to just walk past him on the ground as if he isn’t there.  No empathy shown.

That scene and a host of others in this compilation.
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/police-brutality-plagues-protests-against-police-brutality-84557893824

An officer lifts a docile man’s mask so that he can mace him in the face. 

A woman on the ground beaten with a nightstick.

This is outrageous.  All of these officers should be fired at minimum as well as face assault charges.  One was merely assigned desk duty.

Good riddance. It would hope they let them go. If I lived in Buffalo, I would feel safer without police than with a police force who thinks it’s Ok to beat an old man who has done nothing wrong but to be at the wrong time at the wrong place.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 06, 2020, 03:02:47 PM
The Federal Government is doing nothing here to defend our 1st Amendment rights to protest.  The local governments have taken it away through curfews and violent and brutal police intimidation.  Rather than demand that they stop, Trump calls them pussies and says that if they don't do more of it he'll bring in the military.
I have no problem with curfews. At this point violent confrontations, looting, and rioting do more to help Trump than BLM or anyone else.

The rest of Trump's behavior you mention is abhorrent.

The curfews were thrown in there a little tongue in cheek, and a little Devil’s advocacy.

The violence is a public safety and property safety issue.

Covid spread is also a public safety issue.  However when churches were ordered closed it became a Constitutional issue.  There is some hypocrisy here.  Where looting is illegal, peaceful protest is not but gets banned under curfew hours.

Some areas with curfews are simply anticipating that their cities will have looting.

The curfews appear to lead to increased violence anyhow, and in response many are lifting them.

Thanks for at least acknowledging the hypocrisy around covid. How are these protests in any way tolerable right now?

As far as the police behavior, have you seen the protesters behavior?  I mean if we are going to cherry pick, we have people throwing rocks, fireworks, etc at the police.  I imagine that this has an impact on their self esteem and perception of the world.  I also think we should consider these iffrnding officers childhood, as clearly society failed them and they are the true victims.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 06, 2020, 03:29:27 PM
The police are not merely using force in responding to threats of harm against them.  An old man was assaulted and the entire group of officers resigned in disgust from the task force because they believe shoving the old peaceful man was justified.  You can see many of them continue to just walk past him on the ground as if he isn’t there.  No empathy shown.

That scene and a host of others in this compilation.
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/police-brutality-plagues-protests-against-police-brutality-84557893824

An officer lifts a docile man’s mask so that he can mace him in the face. 

A woman on the ground beaten with a nightstick.

This is outrageous.  All of these officers should be fired at minimum as well as face assault charges.  One was merely assigned desk duty.

Good riddance. It would hope they let them go. If I lived in Buffalo, I would feel safer without police than with a police force who thinks it’s Ok to beat an old man who has done nothing wrong but to be at the wrong time at the wrong place.
Apparently they've been arraigned today.

Quote
Police initially said the man tripped.

That's another thing. They lie. Yeah, he tripped....

Quote
Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown said he has not asked for the officers to be fired.

“It is very important that the officers know they are getting due process,” Brown said.

In what other job on the face of this planet are you not insta fired after that?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 06, 2020, 03:56:59 PM
In what other job on the face of this planet are you not insta fired after that?

POTUS
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 06, 2020, 04:25:24 PM
Comparison by Fox News on stock market returns after prominent black deaths:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/media/2020/06/06/fox-news-graphic-stock-market-stelter-ndwknd-vpx.cnn

Not only disgusting...sickening that no one at Fox News thought that this was just plain inappropriate!  Would they do such a comparison after prominent "white" deaths?

Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 06, 2020, 05:10:26 PM
Comparison by Fox News on stock market returns after prominent black deaths:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/media/2020/06/06/fox-news-graphic-stock-market-stelter-ndwknd-vpx.cnn

Not only disgusting...sickening that no one at Fox News thought that this was just plain inappropriate!  Would they do such a comparison after prominent "white" deaths?

Cheers!
I'm having a hard time figuring out where they were trying to go with that one.

Is it it's ok to kill black people because the stock market doesn't drop.

or

We should kill black people to make the stock market go up.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 06, 2020, 05:18:53 PM
I don’t like protesters throwing rocks and those deserve to be apprehended. The vast majority of protesters were peaceful however. I would also add that this is no reason to be brutal towards those that aren’t throwing rocks and in addition, the police force are professionals that are supposed to protect and serve and should be held at high standards.
Here is an interesting thread about the NYPD:
https://twitter.com/johngallagherjr/status/1269049255970443264?s=21 (https://twitter.com/johngallagherjr/status/1269049255970443264?s=21)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 06, 2020, 05:30:22 PM
And more lying from the police.

The park police union put out a statement saying that the Australian TV crew that got assaulted by police may have just fallen.

It was a TV crew. They have video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PahrmDOIVQ0

Seems like these people just fall a lot.

All this bullshit reminds me of a scene from Analyse This when one of the characters says that he's ok now cause the court ran out of witnesses cause the last one dies. Then Billy Crystal asks how did he die. Then the guy says he stabbed himself in the back 3 times and then jumped off a bridge.

That was a comedy... about mobsters.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 06, 2020, 06:35:05 PM
Its not just objects being thrown at the cops. This isn't a game.  They are getting hospitalized and killed. In that context someone getting pushed is unfortunate but just part of the game the protesters are playing.  You start fighting with police, this kind of thing happens and yes innocent people will get injured as tensions rise.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 06, 2020, 06:46:04 PM
Its not just objects being thrown at the cops. This isn't a game.  They are getting hospitalized and killed. In that context someone getting pushed is unfortunate but just part of the game the protesters are playing.  You start fighting with police, this kind of thing happens and yes innocent people will get injured as tensions rise.

That old man stood in front of the police and made no threatening gestures.  What is the name of that game?  Can the police push or club any random person on the street who is protesting?  That's suppression of the 1st Amendment.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 06, 2020, 06:52:55 PM
Quote
Seems like these people just fall a lot.

Same thing happens to their wives/girlfriends at a higher-than-average rate.

Quote
That's suppression of the 1st Amendment

Agreed. And instead of defending the constitution, our president is tear gassing people when he crawls out of his bunker.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 06, 2020, 07:29:58 PM
I watched the video. The guy was asked to leave. He defied orders.  He got a push and it looks like he tripped. If you watch the footage they didn't put their weight into it as you would need to to ii f you intended to injure. They were just clearing and it looks like he list his footing after the shove.

 The police definitely have the right to shut down protests when violence occurs.  This was the case here based on what I have read.

So this is your story, police shoving someone. What I also see are thousands of cops injured which means thousands of protesters deliberately attacking police. Thus isn't like a cop pushing too hard, its people driving vehicles into cops and shooting at them. They are not some pinatas and that's not a protest.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 06, 2020, 07:39:13 PM
Also you aren't allowed to protest because you clowns just spent the last 3 months talking about how stupid and selfish people were for breaking quarantine.  Now you have the right to protest.  You are special.  I can't even take my kids to the fucking park but you have some sort of veto card over everything. 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 06, 2020, 07:52:02 PM
The new definition of tripping: He lost his footing after the shove.

That's gotta be up there with the new definition of a punch to the face: He walked into me while i was air fist pumping.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: meiroy on June 06, 2020, 08:28:20 PM
I watched the video. The guy was asked to leave. He defied orders.  He got a push and it looks like he tripped. If you watch the footage they didn't put their weight into it as you would need to to ii f you intended to injure. They were just clearing and it looks like he list his footing after the shove.

This is how I saw it as well, he fell like that most likely due to his age, sadly I've seen it before.

HOWEVER.

1. You don't push an elderly person for exactly this reason.

2. The main issue here is their reaction AFTER he fell. Horrific.

3. Context. There are hundreds of videos going around that clearly show there's is a systematic problem with the police force.

It's worse.  If this is how police act in such situations, it is CERTAIN that such people would have no morale or other objection to colluding with criminals or abusing their power against civilians whenever they feel like it.

Incentives must change.




Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 06, 2020, 10:53:28 PM
The NFL did the unthinkable: it gave Donald Trump the middle finger

After years of a spineless policy of appeasement, the league finally detached itself from the president and his exploitation of the flag and military


“I am a big fan of Drew Brees. I think he’s truly one of the greatest quarterbacks, but he should not have taken back his original stance on honoring our magnificent American Flag. OLD GLORY is to be revered, cherished, and flown high,” Trump tweeted. “We should be standing up straight and tall, ideally with a salute, or a hand on heart. There are other things you can protest, but not our Great American Flag – NO KNEELING!”

...

Within minutes, Goodell issued a stunning video. He uttered the words “we were wrong” as he read the statement requested by the players. He spoke with emotion and remorse as he said, “I personally protest with you and want to be part of the much-needed change in this country.” It was a Goodell we have never seen before.




https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/06/nfl-statement-wrong-players-racism-protests-roger-goodell-donald-trump-football
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 07, 2020, 12:48:41 AM
I watched the video. The guy was asked to leave. He defied orders.  He got a push and it looks like he tripped. If you watch the footage they didn't put their weight into it as you would need to to ii f you intended to injure. They were just clearing and it looks like he list his footing after the shove.

This is how I saw it as well, he fell like that most likely due to his age, sadly I've seen it before.

HOWEVER.

1. You don't push an elderly person for exactly this reason.

2. The main issue here is their reaction AFTER he fell. Horrific.

3. Context. There are hundreds of videos going around that clearly show there's is a systematic problem with the police force.

It's worse.  If this is how police act in such situations, it is CERTAIN that such people would have no morale or other objection to colluding with criminals or abusing their power against civilians whenever they feel like it.

Incentives must change.

+1!

I remember my friends and I were jet-skiing a decade ago in Lake Union in Seattle during the summer.  One of my friends, she was about 35 and never jet-skied before, went out with her husband sitting behind her.  On the way back, she didn't realize the speed limit near the shore by the launch area was around 5 mph.  She came in at maybe 10 mph and a police boat turned on the lights and siren.  She was a bit flustered and just brought the jet-ski into the launch, as she didn't want to stop 100 yards away in deeper water.

As she disembarked her jet-ski with her husband, remember she's wearing nothing but a bikini and life jacket and her husband only has on his trunks and life jacket...two Mercer Island police officers jump off their boat and surrounded them, screaming at the top of their lungs, and with one holding a shotgun pointed at her head!  Everyone started to surround them and ask what is going on...the police kept telling people to stand back.  She started shivering and freaking out, scared shit-less of the shotgun pointed at her.  Her husband quietly trying to calm her down and calm the police officers down.  We all took pictures, telling the cops to lower the shotgun...that their 10 year-old son was standing nearby after running towards them when he saw them.  The guy holding the shotgun kept pointing the shotgun at her head, and rocking back and forth in a menacing, unsure manner.  By the way, she weighed maybe 110 lbs back then and she was about 5'4", while her husband weighed maybe 170 lbs and was 5'9"...the cop was like 6'1" and was a good 190 lbs at least.  What would he do if she panicked and moved her hands which they had in the air, or she freaked out and turned around or moved suddenly? 

After 10 minutes, they finally lowered the shotgun and said that it was a case of mistaken identity and that someone matching her name was wanted for weapon possession charges.  Now this is what gets me...is this a training issue...a case of cops just treating every circumstance the same...just a completely retarded cop...what?

These two officers couldn't make the connection between she could not be possibly armed in a bikini that hugged her body and pretty much showed if she was hiding any sort of weapon.  Was it necessary to have the shotgun pointed at her when he was the only armed individual there...if she ran or tried to grab a weapon, he still would have the drop on her and her husband.  On top of that it was a public beach, boating area with tons of families and children everywhere on a hot, sunny summer day...would they have pulled that shotgun and pointed it at her head if she were white?  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 07, 2020, 01:01:18 AM
The NFL did the unthinkable: it gave Donald Trump the middle finger

After years of a spineless policy of appeasement, the league finally detached itself from the president and his exploitation of the flag and military


“I am a big fan of Drew Brees. I think he’s truly one of the greatest quarterbacks, but he should not have taken back his original stance on honoring our magnificent American Flag. OLD GLORY is to be revered, cherished, and flown high,” Trump tweeted. “We should be standing up straight and tall, ideally with a salute, or a hand on heart. There are other things you can protest, but not our Great American Flag – NO KNEELING!”

...

Within minutes, Goodell issued a stunning video. He uttered the words “we were wrong” as he read the statement requested by the players. He spoke with emotion and remorse as he said, “I personally protest with you and want to be part of the much-needed change in this country.” It was a Goodell we have never seen before.




https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/06/nfl-statement-wrong-players-racism-protests-roger-goodell-donald-trump-football

From other articles I read, it was the owners who pushed Goodell into the original stance.  He initially was asking owners to be a bit more progressive, and a handful of the more powerful, old guard lobby, forced him away from that position.  Thus the ban on Kapernick, kneeling, etc.  In those same articles, the same insiders also stated that there was a real "ban" on Kapernick and that he was black-balled from the NFL.  Contrary to what Trump and his supporters would have you believe...there was a real conspiracy to ruin Kapernick's career and he paid the price.  To the naysayers, Kapernick WAS actually good enough to make a number of NFL teams if the blackball did not exist.  Cheers!   
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 07, 2020, 02:28:20 AM
The NFL did the unthinkable: it gave Donald Trump the middle finger

After years of a spineless policy of appeasement, the league finally detached itself from the president and his exploitation of the flag and military


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/06/nfl-statement-wrong-players-racism-protests-roger-goodell-donald-trump-football
That's got to hurt. Especially given how much Trump wanted daddy to buy him an NFL team years ago.

I guess you can say this is the second time they have rejected him.

https://time.com/5392916/donald-trump-usfl-football-for-a-buck/

I took them far too long in my opinion.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 07, 2020, 06:42:06 AM
I watched the video. The guy was asked to leave. He defied orders.  He got a push and it looks like he tripped. If you watch the footage they didn't put their weight into it as you would need to to ii f you intended to injure. They were just clearing and it looks like he list his footing after the shove.

This is how I saw it as well, he fell like that most likely due to his age, sadly I've seen it before.

HOWEVER.

1. You don't push an elderly person for exactly this reason.

2. The main issue here is their reaction AFTER he fell. Horrific.

3. Context. There are hundreds of videos going around that clearly show there's is a systematic problem with the police force.

It's worse.  If this is how police act in such situations, it is CERTAIN that such people would have no morale or other objection to colluding with criminals or abusing their power against civilians whenever they feel like it.

Incentives must change.

+1!

I remember my friends and I were jet-skiing a decade ago in Lake Union in Seattle during the summer.  One of my friends, she was about 35 and never jet-skied before, went out with her husband sitting behind her.  On the way back, she didn't realize the speed limit near the shore by the launch area was around 5 mph.  She came in at maybe 10 mph and a police boat turned on the lights and siren.  She was a bit flustered and just brought the jet-ski into the launch, as she didn't want to stop 100 yards away in deeper water.

As she disembarked her jet-ski with her husband, remember she's wearing nothing but a bikini and life jacket and her husband only has on his trunks and life jacket...two Mercer Island police officers jump off their boat and surrounded them, screaming at the top of their lungs, and with one holding a shotgun pointed at her head!  Everyone started to surround them and ask what is going on...the police kept telling people to stand back.  She started shivering and freaking out, scared shit-less of the shotgun pointed at her.  Her husband quietly trying to calm her down and calm the police officers down.  We all took pictures, telling the cops to lower the shotgun...that their 10 year-old son was standing nearby after running towards them when he saw them.  The guy holding the shotgun kept pointing the shotgun at her head, and rocking back and forth in a menacing, unsure manner.  By the way, she weighed maybe 110 lbs back then and she was about 5'4", while her husband weighed maybe 170 lbs and was 5'9"...the cop was like 6'1" and was a good 190 lbs at least.  What would he do if she panicked and moved her hands which they had in the air, or she freaked out and turned around or moved suddenly? 

After 10 minutes, they finally lowered the shotgun and said that it was a case of mistaken identity and that someone matching her name was wanted for weapon possession charges.  Now this is what gets me...is this a training issue...a case of cops just treating every circumstance the same...just a completely retarded cop...what?

These two officers couldn't make the connection between she could not be possibly armed in a bikini that hugged her body and pretty much showed if she was hiding any sort of weapon.  Was it necessary to have the shotgun pointed at her when he was the only armed individual there...if she ran or tried to grab a weapon, he still would have the drop on her and her husband.  On top of that it was a public beach, boating area with tons of families and children everywhere on a hot, sunny summer day...would they have pulled that shotgun and pointed it at her head if she were white?  Cheers!
I think tour story is not just a dumb cop. I'm starting to be convinced that it's a systemic issue. This is because you see this type of stuff happen again and again and in place after place after place. When it happens so much the instances stop being coincidences and become a pattern.

In my view if you go about your business, are not violent, and don't present a danger (going 5 mph over the limit is not presenting a danger) there is no reason why you should have a weapon pointed at you. Police have a great tool at their disposal. It is called arrest. But arrest requires probable cause. It also goes on the books which can create problems for the officers. So the choose violence instead. In your friend's case by pointing a weapon to her head. In the senior from Buffalo by shoving him to the ground. But if you don't have probable cause to make an arrest then you definitely don't have probable cause to point a weapon at somebody or to assault them.

I will like to note that there is a fair number of members on the board that stated that they keep weapons in case this type of thing happens with a stranger. Sure some of them are tough guy posers. But I have to assume that a good fraction of them would actually shoot that person if the person aimed a shotgun to the head of their spouse. If the act perpetrated is grievous to warrant shooting the perpetrator in a separate setting why is the act ok when it is perpetrated by the police?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 07, 2020, 07:03:45 AM
"We have a Constitution. And we have to follow that Constitution. And the President has drifted away from it," Powell, a retired general who served under President George W. Bush, told CNN's Jake Tapper on "State of the Union."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/politics/colin-powell-donald-trump-protests-cnntv/index.html
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 07, 2020, 08:32:49 AM
I'm glad someone wrote this opinion.  I was thinking the same thing yesterday, that it's the police who are the rioters in these videos where they are clubbing peaceful protestors:

The Police Are Rioting. We Need to Talk About It.

It is an attack on civil society and democratic accountability.

If we’re going to speak of rioting protesters, then we need to speak of rioting police as well. No, they aren’t destroying property. But it is clear from news coverage, as well as countless videos taken by protesters and bystanders, that many officers are using often indiscriminate violence against people — against anyone, including the peaceful majority of demonstrators, who happens to be in the streets.

Rioting police have driven vehicles into crowds, reproducing the assault that killed Heather Heyer in Charlottesville, Va., in 2017. They have surrounded a car, smashed the windows, tazed the occupants and dragged them out onto the ground. Clad in paramilitary gear, they have attacked elderly bystanders, pepper-sprayed cooperative protesters and shot “nonlethal” rounds directly at reporters, causing serious injuries. In Austin, Texas, a 20-year-old man is in critical condition after being shot in the head with a “less-lethal” round. Across the country, rioting police are using tear gas in quantities that threaten the health and safety of demonstrators, especially in the midst of a respiratory disease pandemic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/opinion/sunday/police-riots.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 07, 2020, 09:09:56 AM
I watched the video. The guy was asked to leave. He defied orders.  He got a push and it looks like he tripped. If you watch the footage they didn't put their weight into it as you would need to to ii f you intended to injure. They were just clearing and it looks like he list his footing after the shove.

This is how I saw it as well, he fell like that most likely due to his age, sadly I've seen it before.

HOWEVER.

1. You don't push an elderly person for exactly this reason.

2. The main issue here is their reaction AFTER he fell. Horrific.

3. Context. There are hundreds of videos going around that clearly show there's is a systematic problem with the police force.

It's worse.  If this is how police act in such situations, it is CERTAIN that such people would have no morale or other objection to colluding with criminals or abusing their power against civilians whenever they feel like it.

Incentives must change.

+1!

I remember my friends and I were jet-skiing a decade ago in Lake Union in Seattle during the summer.  One of my friends, she was about 35 and never jet-skied before, went out with her husband sitting behind her.  On the way back, she didn't realize the speed limit near the shore by the launch area was around 5 mph.  She came in at maybe 10 mph and a police boat turned on the lights and siren.  She was a bit flustered and just brought the jet-ski into the launch, as she didn't want to stop 100 yards away in deeper water.

As she disembarked her jet-ski with her husband, remember she's wearing nothing but a bikini and life jacket and her husband only has on his trunks and life jacket...two Mercer Island police officers jump off their boat and surrounded them, screaming at the top of their lungs, and with one holding a shotgun pointed at her head!  Everyone started to surround them and ask what is going on...the police kept telling people to stand back.  She started shivering and freaking out, scared shit-less of the shotgun pointed at her.  Her husband quietly trying to calm her down and calm the police officers down.  We all took pictures, telling the cops to lower the shotgun...that their 10 year-old son was standing nearby after running towards them when he saw them.  The guy holding the shotgun kept pointing the shotgun at her head, and rocking back and forth in a menacing, unsure manner.  By the way, she weighed maybe 110 lbs back then and she was about 5'4", while her husband weighed maybe 170 lbs and was 5'9"...the cop was like 6'1" and was a good 190 lbs at least.  What would he do if she panicked and moved her hands which they had in the air, or she freaked out and turned around or moved suddenly? 

After 10 minutes, they finally lowered the shotgun and said that it was a case of mistaken identity and that someone matching her name was wanted for weapon possession charges.  Now this is what gets me...is this a training issue...a case of cops just treating every circumstance the same...just a completely retarded cop...what?

These two officers couldn't make the connection between she could not be possibly armed in a bikini that hugged her body and pretty much showed if she was hiding any sort of weapon.  Was it necessary to have the shotgun pointed at her when he was the only armed individual there...if she ran or tried to grab a weapon, he still would have the drop on her and her husband.  On top of that it was a public beach, boating area with tons of families and children everywhere on a hot, sunny summer day...would they have pulled that shotgun and pointed it at her head if she were white?  Cheers!

In 2010, my wife was driving alone in Louisiana on her way to a business meeting.  A highway patrolman had his car turned in the direction of traffic so that he could see the faces of the drivers.  She was not speeding, but she was pulled over and told to exit the vehicle and stand behind the car.  He asked her to have coffee with him.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 07, 2020, 09:16:34 AM
The CHP called my wife to do a background check on a college friend and she told them he would get angry and combative when he was drinking.  They hired him anyway.  Later he was dismissed from the force after he drew his gun in anger when he was drinking in a bar off-duty.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 07, 2020, 10:53:20 AM
How can anyone verify wether or not they are legit?  They don't have names or identifiers on their uniforms.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/unidentified-armed-federal-troops-raise-accountability-concerns-84448325645


The Story Behind Bill Barr’s Unmarked Federal Agents
The motley assortment of police currently occupying Washington, D.C., is a window into the vast, complicated, obscure world of federal law enforcement.
...
On the darker side, the roughly 20,000 federal prison guards known formally as the Bureau of Prisons—whose riot units make up a sizable chunk of the officers imported to D.C. and who represent the single largest component of federal officers in the Justice Department—are concerning to see on the streets in part because they’re largely untrained in civilian law enforcement; they normally operate in a controlled environment behind bars with sharply limited civil liberties and use-of-force policies that would never fly in a civilian environment.


https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/05/protests-washington-dc-federal-agents-law-enforcement-302551
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 07, 2020, 01:49:06 PM
How can anyone verify wether or not they are legit?  They don't have names or identifiers on their uniforms.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/unidentified-armed-federal-troops-raise-accountability-concerns-84448325645


The Story Behind Bill Barr’s Unmarked Federal Agents
The motley assortment of police currently occupying Washington, D.C., is a window into the vast, complicated, obscure world of federal law enforcement.
...
On the darker side, the roughly 20,000 federal prison guards known formally as the Bureau of Prisons—whose riot units make up a sizable chunk of the officers imported to D.C. and who represent the single largest component of federal officers in the Justice Department—are concerning to see on the streets in part because they’re largely untrained in civilian law enforcement; they normally operate in a controlled environment behind bars with sharply limited civil liberties and use-of-force policies that would never fly in a civilian environment.


https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/05/protests-washington-dc-federal-agents-law-enforcement-302551
This is an unfortunate step closer to the brown coats.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 07, 2020, 03:09:58 PM
 I have never had a cop pull a gun on me but I gave had a criminal pull one. I will take my chances with the police.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 07, 2020, 03:31:11 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/snoop-dogg-plans-vote-first-210038075.html

I love it when Snoop is baking with Martha Stewart, and of course his music is terrific, but what a twat!  I'm glad he's voting, but I'm also so disgusted that someone who has gained so much from America, never had the courage or sense of responsibility to vote previously.  Maybe if jackasses like him did vote, Trump would not have been in office in the first place.  At the same time, jackasses like him voting, worries me as much as Trump supporters!  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 07, 2020, 03:59:35 PM
Still waiting for you all to address covid and these protests. You guys, except Eric, are very quiet on the subject.  I guess it doesn't fit your narrative...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 07, 2020, 04:06:38 PM
Still waiting for you all to address covid and these protests. You guys, except Eric, are very quiet on the subject.  I guess it doesn't fit your narrative...
I'll address it. People will get sick and die.

Satisfied now?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 07, 2020, 04:43:50 PM
Oh there is a very strong undercurrent of hypocrisy and swagger here but not much critical thinking. Am I satisfied, are you satisfied, this is your beef right?   Aren't you so concerned about his the overtaxed medical system will have to deal with this outbreak.  It isn't just affecting the protesters, its affecting everyone. In particular it affects the elderly population the most but now suddenly nobody cares. Let's not talk about that.

When we argue stocks we try to see all the different angles and dissent is encouraged. In politics it's just about picking the arguments that suit your end goal and swatting away all the rest.

At the end of the day you guys don't care about covid except you felt it gave an edge over the Republicans.  The proof is in.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 07, 2020, 04:45:06 PM
I have never had a cop pull a gun on me but I gave had a criminal pull one. I will take my chances with the police.
The idea here that nobody should have to "take a chance" with the police.

I know that in an encounter with the police I will be ok. I am part of a class that the police tend to be reluctant to fuck with and for good reason.

I never saw a gun pointed at me or anyone else. But Sanjeev is part of the same socio-economic class as I am. So why did he see a weapon pointed at someone? Well, I am probably one of the whitest people on the planet. He and his friends aren't. I should mention that my non-white friends (which are all around or over the 1% income mark) either had at least one bad encounter with the police or they don't want to talk about the subject.

So yeah, skin colour matters.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 07, 2020, 05:19:40 PM
Oh there is a very strong undercurrent of hypocrisy and swagger here but not much critical thinking. Am I satisfied, are you satisfied, this is your beef right?   Aren't you so concerned about his the overtaxed medical system will have to deal with this outbreak.  It isn't just affecting the protesters, its affecting everyone. In particular it affects the
elderly population the most but now suddenly nobody cares. Let's not talk about that.

What do you expect the COVID numbers to look like as a result of the protests?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 07, 2020, 05:21:41 PM
Oh there is a very strong undercurrent of hypocrisy and swagger here but not much critical thinking. Am I satisfied, are you satisfied, this is your beef right?   Aren't you so concerned about his the overtaxed medical system will have to deal with this outbreak.  It isn't just affecting the protesters, its affecting everyone. In particular it affects the elderly population the most but now suddenly nobody cares. Let's not talk about that.

When we argue stocks we try to see all the different angles and dissent is encouraged. In politics it's just about picking the arguments that suit your end goal and swatting away all the rest.

At the end of the day you guys don't care about covid except you felt it gave an edge over the Republicans.  The proof is in.

Or you could say the proof is in because California's bars and gyms open this week.  Why the favoritism where you are silent about the gyms and bars, but vocal about the protests?  Is it because you don't like the protests?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 07, 2020, 05:44:46 PM
Oh there is a very strong undercurrent of hypocrisy and swagger here but not much critical thinking. Am I satisfied, are you satisfied, this is your beef right?   Aren't you so concerned about his the overtaxed medical system will have to deal with this outbreak.  It isn't just affecting the protesters, its affecting everyone. In particular it affects the elderly population the most but now suddenly nobody cares. Let's not talk about that.

When we argue stocks we try to see all the different angles and dissent is encouraged. In politics it's just about picking the arguments that suit your end goal and swatting away all the rest.

At the end of the day you guys don't care about covid except you felt it gave an edge over the Republicans.  The proof is in.
It seems obvious  by your posts that you just want to score gotcha points. Pointing loaded questions, then when answered go... see he said are you satisfied, the fix is in, covid is only political. Still, I'll bite.

Yes. I am very concerned, not only that, but very sure that these protests will lead to outbreaks of covid. I hope that I will be proven wrong, but I am certain people will die from it. I wish these protests didn't happen. I wish they didn't have to happen. You can see from the fact that most of these protesters are wearing masks (why is most of police not wearing masks btw?) that they are aware of the risk. Maybe they are Covid assholes. But protesters have walked in front of danger many times before, being beatings, torture, tanks, etc. A virus is an unseen threat but just as deadly as a tank that's about to run over you.

The analyst part is over. Now comes the political part.

All this shit cause "we" want an edge over the republicans? You have a republican president of the United States that is inciting protests against states (by armed people) to liberate themselves to go to the hair salon and bars because that's guaranteed by the constitution. No worries about covid there. No heavy police action. Then you have some real protests about people getting killed. The whole nation is up in arms and the military gets called in - What happened to that freedom i wonder.

You think that this covid thing is just to find an edge over the republicans. But it's really you who try to find an edge. "I don't see anything wrong with the police." Should keep the status quo. Do you think those people are in the street cause it's fun? The recognize the threat yet put themselves in harm's way. Because of people like you.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 07, 2020, 06:09:38 PM
Oh there is a very strong undercurrent of hypocrisy and swagger here but not much critical thinking. Am I satisfied, are you satisfied, this is your beef right?   Aren't you so concerned about his the overtaxed medical system will have to deal with this outbreak.  It isn't just affecting the protesters, its affecting everyone. In particular it affects the elderly population the most but now suddenly nobody cares. Let's not talk about that.

When we argue stocks we try to see all the different angles and dissent is encouraged. In politics it's just about picking the arguments that suit your end goal and swatting away all the rest.

At the end of the day you guys don't care about covid except you felt it gave an edge over the Republicans.  The proof is in.

The protests are a problem, but aren't most states and provinces essentially moving back to normal and opening things up.  What about all of the twats who have been gathering at various parks and beaches...no one is cracking down on them, so why would anyone expect a crackdown on protesters?  I'm fine cracking down on looters, anarchists and ensuring there is at least some safe distancing or masks, but now that everything is opening up and returning somewhat to normal...protesters aren't much different than restaurant/pub patrons, beach goers or campers/recreationists.  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 07, 2020, 06:17:10 PM
Minneapolis City Council members intend to defund and dismantle the city's police department

"We committed to dismantling policing as we know it in the city of Minneapolis and to rebuild with our community a new model of public safety that actually keeps our community safe," Council President Lisa Bender told CNN.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/george-floyd-protests-sunday/index.html


Councilwoman Alondra Cano tweeted the department isn’t "reformable."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/majority-minneapolis-city-council-commits-dismantling-city-s-police-department-n1227116
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 07, 2020, 06:57:02 PM
I take it they can get around the police union if they defund it and then rebuild.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 07, 2020, 07:20:12 PM
This isn't the same as 60s era civil rights protests. We have equality now or about as close as you can get with legal systems. In Canada, from what I see there are people protesting but I don't see the systemic racism. No way. The opposite in fact.

Let's go back to basics and this is where I always try to start and end.

The USA has so many people trying to get in that it's a political issue.  If there is systemic racism why is everyone trying to get in?

The situations people are fleeing frequently boil down to personal safety due to gangs. So why in that context would I ever endorse crimping the police?

The wealth generated in the US is unusual and a product of property rights. Again how is removing policing going to lead to enforcement of property rights?  To back it up a step, how is any of the left wing agenda going to lead to more property rights?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 07, 2020, 07:24:44 PM
I take it they can get around the police union if they defund it and then rebuild.

This is the one area where I would support you guys. I just don't see how this could happen. This sets crazy precedents around union contracts. Imagine if a private company tried it.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 07, 2020, 10:21:05 PM
This isn't the same as 60s era civil rights protests.

It is about protesting police brutality and targeting minorities.  And the lack of accountability that the police face.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 08, 2020, 02:57:36 AM
I take it they can get around the police union if they defund it and then rebuild.

This is the one area where I would support you guys. I just don't see how this could happen. This sets crazy precedents around union contracts. Imagine if a private company tried it.

It has been done. It is called bankruptcy. Or the better comparison within a corporate structure would be a restructuring. Those happen all the time. Some operations get “defunded”, others get invested in.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 08, 2020, 07:01:50 AM
Fox News banging the drum that blacks feel entitled and are demanding free things from society:

"We want more -- we want the society to give us more -- to help us -- society is responsible for us," he said of the protesters' demands boiled down to a basic ideal.

"And so when people start to talk about systemic racism built into the system, what they're really doing is expanding the territory of 'entitlement,'" Steele said.


https://www.foxnews.com/media/shelby-steele-claims-of-systemic-racism-expanding-the-territory-of-entitlement

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 08, 2020, 07:25:20 AM
That article reads (to me):  Vote Republican or the black people will take your money from you.

Nowhere in that entire article was police brutality mentioned.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 08, 2020, 07:38:56 AM
I don't understand the link between police brutality/racism and reparations. I've even seen economists calling for reparations in the wake of continued protesting.

To me it makes a whole lot more sense to reform police institutions rather than giving people free money.

Or, if you want to go the "free stuff" route - make it universal e.g. healthcare, education, etc.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 08, 2020, 07:47:51 AM
Some of these stats are due to the Second Amendment (officer fired because suspect had a gun, or officer thought he was reaching for one, etc..).

American police shoot, kill and imprison more people than other developed countries.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html


In other words, a heavily armed citizenry will be met with greater force and violence by the state.  These other democracies get by without the armed citizenry just fine.  They are not being murdered or raped in higher numbers by home invasions, etc...

I suspect Trump knows why the police are generally more violent in the US, evidenced by his quick reference to his support for the Second Amendment when the protests began.  I believe our current level of violence can be reduced by more accountability for police action, however I think our baseline level of police violence will be higher due to the armed citizenry.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 08, 2020, 09:07:13 AM
Some of these stats are due to the Second Amendment (officer fired because suspect had a gun, or officer thought he was reaching for one, etc..).

American police shoot, kill and imprison more people than other developed countries.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html


In other words, a heavily armed citizenry will be met with greater force and violence by the state.  These other democracies get by without the armed citizenry just fine.  They are not being murdered or raped in higher numbers by home invasions, etc...

I suspect Trump knows why the police are generally more violent in the US, evidenced by his quick reference to his support for the Second Amendment when the protests began.  I believe our current level of violence can be reduced by more accountability for police action, however I think our baseline level of police violence will be higher due to the armed citizenry.

I don't think that's necessarily true. There are plenty of EU countries with extremely high gun ownership rates and low police incidents. Things this argument misses.

- Demographics
- Cultural differences
- Country history

Also I think police would be much more inclined to hesitate if they were all wearing body cams and had that immunity law revoked (see Justin Amash proposal). That alone imo would take a care of the majority of it. Police use "I thought he had a gun" as an excuse for a poor reaction they made. Talk to any military person who served overseas and the restrictions on engagement are far more strict than what police have here. My buddy who was a Green Beret told me of many stories where he was kicking down doors in some neighborhood where pretty much every person was looked at as a potential threat. You didn't know the layout of every building, you didn't know who was inside, and you didn't know the language. But their trigger discipline and engagement was reserved. Their goal for the most part was to detain individuals and cuff them with zip ties until they could question them with an interpreter.

The police need more accountability and less "us vs them" mentality.

@LC I agree....the scope of discussion should primarily be about police (right now). There are other issues for sure, but everything is getting painted with a broad brush right now because of emotions. That's how society jumps to conclusions and perpetuates issues. I'll probably refrain fro having any opinions on it for a bit until all this emotion dies down. Simply not conducive to progress.

Social Media is a great example right now.

- If you don't have an opinion you're part of the problem.
- If you have an opinion its guaranteed to be the wrong one.
- If you talk about a single issue your a racist because you didn't mention the other issues.
- If you have a positive encouraging opinion people will say it is too broad and not specific enough because the current issue is very specific.

This environment is toxic and simply not productive at all. I've seen so many bridges burned and relationships ruined on social media over the past week it's insane.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 08, 2020, 09:12:03 AM
Some of these stats are due to the Second Amendment (officer fired because suspect had a gun, or officer thought he was reaching for one, etc..).

American police shoot, kill and imprison more people than other developed countries.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html


In other words, a heavily armed citizenry will be met with greater force and violence by the state.  These other democracies get by without the armed citizenry just fine.  They are not being murdered or raped in higher numbers by home invasions, etc...

I suspect Trump knows why the police are generally more violent in the US, evidenced by his quick reference to his support for the Second Amendment when the protests began.  I believe our current level of violence can be reduced by more accountability for police action, however I think our baseline level of police violence will be higher due to the armed citizenry.

I don't think that's necessarily true. There are plenty of EU countries with extremely high gun ownership rates
...

That's a misleading statistic. 

Handguns?  AR-15 style weapons?  Mainly handguns (the guy was reaching into his jacket, thought it was a gun).

It's really difficult to shoot a cop from the driver's seat with a long barreled weapon when he approaches from behind and stops close to the driver's side window.  And very difficult to hide in your coat pocket or waistband.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 08, 2020, 09:19:00 AM
Some of these stats are due to the Second Amendment (officer fired because suspect had a gun, or officer thought he was reaching for one, etc..).

American police shoot, kill and imprison more people than other developed countries.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html


In other words, a heavily armed citizenry will be met with greater force and violence by the state.  These other democracies get by without the armed citizenry just fine.  They are not being murdered or raped in higher numbers by home invasions, etc...

I suspect Trump knows why the police are generally more violent in the US, evidenced by his quick reference to his support for the Second Amendment when the protests began.  I believe our current level of violence can be reduced by more accountability for police action, however I think our baseline level of police violence will be higher due to the armed citizenry.

I don't think that's necessarily true. There are plenty of EU countries with extremely high gun ownership rates and low police incidents. Things this argument misses.

- Demographics
- Cultural differences
- Country history

Also I think police would be much more inclined to hesitate if they were all wearing body cams and had that immunity law revoked (see Justin Amash proposal). That alone imo would take a care of the majority of it. Police use "I thought he had a gun" as an excuse for a poor reaction they made. Talk to any military person who served overseas and the restrictions on engagement are far more strict than what police have here. My buddy who was a Green Beret told me of many stories where he was kicking down doors in some neighborhood where pretty much every person was looked at as a potential threat. You didn't know the layout of every building, you didn't know who was inside, and you didn't know the language. But their trigger discipline and engagement was reserved. Their goal for the most part was to detain individuals and cuff them with zip ties until they could question them with an interpreter.

The police need more accountability and less "us vs them" mentality.

@LC I agree....the scope of discussion should primarily be about police (right now). There are other issues for sure, but everything is getting painted with a broad brush right now because of emotions. That's how society jumps to conclusions and perpetuates issues. I'll probably refrain fro having any opinions on it for a bit until all this emotion dies down. Simply not conducive to progress.

Social Media is a great example right now.

- If you don't have an opinion you're part of the problem.
- If you have an opinion its guaranteed to be the wrong one.
- If you talk about a single issue your a racist because you didn't mention the other issues.
- If you have a positive encouraging opinion people will say it is too broad and not specific enough because the current issue is very specific.

This environment is toxic and simply not productive at all. I've seen so many bridges burned and relationships ruined on social media over the past week it's insane.

A lot of it is holding police accountable.  Once that work is done, I believe we will still have a more violent baseline due to the guns we allow.  When the Second Amendment was written, today's guns could not have been imagined (look at how long it took for a Samuel Colt to come along). 

When the Second Amendment was written, I believe it was to allow for the citizenry to arm themselves against tyranny.  When it comes to a militia fighting the army, handguns, really?  I think if handguns alone were curtailed, much violence could be reduced even if AR-15s and other long barreled guns were still allowed (upholding the right to arm and form militias).
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 08, 2020, 10:08:19 AM
So which is it? Handguns are bad? Or AR-15s are bad? 2A wasn’t written to “allow” anything. It was written as an acknowledgement by the government that a right that exists regardless. 2A also scales with technology. People who say “it only protects a musket” miss the point entirely. If amendments don’t scale, then your 1A would be limited to smoke signals and carrier pigeons.... ::)

I think you should be able to own something without any significant  licensure that can be used with discrimination (single target/precision). But yeah, fully automatic and other stuff like that should probably have some type of license and training attached to it. Hands down the best home defense weapon would be an AR style 9mm. Lesser chance of over penetration, but much more control as well so as not to miss.

I think people who own an AR 15 (.223) or AR 10 (.308) for home defense are idiots. Quite dangerous to use in a house. Use it for target shooting and keep it locket away for unlikely events. But I do think more people are waking up to the idea of what a police state looks like in the US.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 08, 2020, 10:19:33 AM
Castanza,
You miss my point.

Without hand guns, police have no excuses for shooting a kid holding a cell phone:

Try this one:  I thought it was an AR-15.

Handguns don’t scale against an army.  AR-15s do, which is why I don’t recommend their elimination.

There will be plenty of military issue handguns lying on the ground after an AR-15 armed militia ambushes a squad of troops.  You don’t need to buy them at the store.  So that argument of scalability isn’t applicable for handguns.
Eric
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 08, 2020, 10:30:51 AM
I don't think that's necessarily true. There are plenty of EU countries with extremely high gun ownership rates and low police incidents. Things this argument misses.

- Demographics
- Cultural differences
- Country history

Also I think police would be much more inclined to hesitate if they were all wearing body cams and had that immunity law revoked (see Justin Amash proposal). That alone imo would take a care of the majority of it. Police use "I thought he had a gun" as an excuse for a poor reaction they made. Talk to any military person who served overseas and the restrictions on engagement are far more strict than what police have here. My buddy who was a Green Beret told me of many stories where he was kicking down doors in some neighborhood where pretty much every person was looked at as a potential threat. You didn't know the layout of every building, you didn't know who was inside, and you didn't know the language. But their trigger discipline and engagement was reserved. Their goal for the most part was to detain individuals and cuff them with zip ties until they could question them with an interpreter.

The police need more accountability and less "us vs them" mentality.

@LC I agree....the scope of discussion should primarily be about police (right now). There are other issues for sure, but everything is getting painted with a broad brush right now because of emotions. That's how society jumps to conclusions and perpetuates issues. I'll probably refrain fro having any opinions on it for a bit until all this emotion dies down. Simply not conducive to progress.

Social Media is a great example right now.

- If you don't have an opinion you're part of the problem.
- If you have an opinion its guaranteed to be the wrong one.
- If you talk about a single issue your a racist because you didn't mention the other issues.
- If you have a positive encouraging opinion people will say it is too broad and not specific enough because the current issue is very specific.

This environment is toxic and simply not productive at all. I've seen so many bridges burned and relationships ruined on social media over the past week it's insane.
I agree with much of what you write. Only there are some big items that need clarification.

While there are places in Europe with a lot of guns, gun ownership is very different in Europe compared to the US. There are some differences from country to country these are the big points.

- You must have a license to own a gun. These are easier or harder to get depending on the country and type of gun. But generally you are not allowed to own a gun if you have a mental issue, are a criminal, are violent, or have a substance abuse issue.
- You can use a firearm for self-defense but you've better have a damn good reason for using that firearm or you're the one going to jail. He broke into my house so I popped him doesn't work.
- Transportation of firearms is HIGHLY, HIGHLY, restricted. In certain countries you cannot even transport firearms and ammunition together which I guess makes going hunting kid of a pain in the ass. But the chance that you can have a shotgun in your truck of a 9 in you glovebox is an absolute zero.
- You basically cannot have a firearm in public except for certain very specific situations.

These rules have created a culture of highly responsible gun ownership which has led very few guns on the street. Basically if you're a highly responsible gun owner, you're not gonna give your gun to a criminal. This situation is very different to what you have in the United States.

I do agree that some/a lot of the time the "I thought he had a gun" excuse is bullshit to justify an interaction gone bad. But you have to agree that due to the prevalence of weapons in the US and the carry laws that the police are reasonable to worry that someone may have a firearm as they approach an interaction.

I agree 100% with what you say about increasing police accountability will decrease police violence. They do it because they know they can get away with it. They know they can get away with it because of multiple reasons - police unions, the blue line, justice system, qualified immunity etc. Everyone decries how hard it is to be a cop, blah blah. But being a cop is actually a pretty good gig. It pays well and it pays really well considering that most of these guys would be working at Target if they weren't cops. So if cops had a legitimate fear of being fired for misconduct I'm sure they'd proceed differently in their interactions as they ponder their new life at Target.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 08, 2020, 11:12:08 AM
- You must have a license to own a gun. These are easier or harder to get depending on the country and type of gun. But generally you are not allowed to own a gun if you have a mental issue, are a criminal, are violent, or have a substance abuse issue.
- You can use a firearm for self-defense but you've better have a damn good reason for using that firearm or you're the one going to jail. He broke into my house so I popped him doesn't work.
- Transportation of firearms is HIGHLY, HIGHLY, restricted. In certain countries you cannot even transport firearms and ammunition together which I guess makes going hunting kid of a pain in the ass. But the chance that you can have a shotgun in your truck of a 9 in you glovebox is an absolute zero.
- You basically cannot have a firearm in public except for certain very specific situations.

All of these laws exist in the US except needing a license to own a firearm (which is believed to be unconstitutional and futile to implement in the US) in most cases.

Per your first statement
Under the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007, a person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution
in a State proceeding is not prohibited by the adjudication or commitment if ATF E-Form 4473 (5300.9) Revised October 2016 the person has been
granted relief by the adjudicating/committing State pursuant to a qualifying mental health relief from disabilities program. Also, a person who has
 been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution by a department or agency of Federal Government is not prohibited by
the adjudication or commitment if either: (a) the person's adjudication or commitment was set-aside or expunged by the adjudicating/committing agency;
 (b) the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring by the agency; (c) the person was found
by the agency to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that served as the basis of the initial adjudication/ commitment; or (d)
 the adjudication or commitment, respectively, is based solely on a medical finding of disability, without an opportunity for a hearing by a court,
board, commission, or other lawful authority, and the person has not been adjudicated as a mental defective consistent with section 922(g)(4)
of title 18, United States Code; (e) the person was granted relief from the adjudicating/ committing agency pursuant to a qualified mental health
 relief from disabilities program. Persons who fall within one of the above exceptions should answer "no" to question 11.f. This exception to an
adjudication or commitment by a Federal department or agency does not apply to any person who was adjudicated to be not guilty by reason of insanity,
 or based on lack of mental responsibility, or found incompetent to stand trial, in any criminal case or under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.


Likewise any individual with a felony, misdemeanor, or possession charge is not allowed to own a firearm (there are specifics on time) The issue with this is lack of prosecution. According to the FBI in 2017 112k people failed background checks due to one of the above. Only 12 individuals were prosecuted....12.....In fact this law above if it was applied properly would have not allowed the Dayton shooter to obtain a firearm. Teachers, parents, and school counselors failed to do their job.

At a federal level it is illegal to drive on any interstate system with ANY loaded firearm. It needs to be locked in a container other than a console or glove box and the ammunition needs to be locked away out of reach. This law varies by state, but the majority of them do not allow for a loaded firearm to be carried in a vehicle and for a loaded handgun you need to have a concealed carry permit. In fact you're likely to get in some hot water if you have a handgun in your vehicle without a concealed carry license unless you can prove you were heading to a gun range or something of the like.

Per the self defense use there are also very strict federal and state level regulations. In fact people go to jail every year for improper use. At a high level you are not allowed to brandish a firearm unless you are absolutely going to use it (and it better be necessary). If you shoot someone in your house you will go to jail if you cannot prove they were threatening you with deadly force. If you shoot them and they are not in your house you're going to jail. If you shoot them as they are running away you're going to jail. Many people think gun laws are relaxed in the US (and to an extent I agree). But there are laws (and many vary by state) but as I said above the issue is enforcement.

As with many of the issues in the US, a lot of them boil down to a lack of accountability and a lack of enforcement.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 08, 2020, 11:19:38 AM
Castanza,
You miss my point.

Without hand guns, police have no excuses for shooting a kid holding a cell phone:

Try this one:  I thought it was an AR-15.

Handguns don’t scale against an army.  AR-15s do, which is why I don’t recommend their elimination.

There will be plenty of military issue handguns lying on the ground after an AR-15 armed militia ambushes a squad of troops.  You don’t need to buy them at the store.  So that argument of scalability isn’t applicable for handguns.
Eric

Perhaps I did miss your point. My apologies.

FWIW I'm all for some type of gun educations/training in the US. It should be low cost and accessible to all. A Colleague of mine is from Sweden and we run out shooting club at my company (welcome to PA  :P). What's unique about my company though is the majority of my colleagues are from India and Eastern Europe. It's interesting to hear perspectives from other on guns and ownership etc. The gun culture in Sweden is quite admirable. Although I don't personally agree with all of it, a lot of it does make sense. They seem to take great pride in education kids from an early age on the responsibility of owning and using firearms. At least where he grew up, he said they had shooting competitions and courses for kids as young as 7 and 8 and were very much about teaching responsibility. I think that is a good thing. As I said, it's a tool with a specific purpose in a dire time and should be treated as such.

Anyways, I'll end the gun talk for this thread  :P
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 08, 2020, 03:01:55 PM
In the U.S., the police are more likely to kill you if you are white.... than if you are Asian.  33.8% more likely.


Asian Americans are 5.6% of the US population, yet made up 3.1% of police killings in 2019.
Whites are 61% of the US population, yet made up 44.9% of police killings in 2019.

https://www.theroot.com/here-s-how-many-people-police-killed-in-2019-we-think-1841183889

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: mcliu on June 08, 2020, 07:28:55 PM
“I do not support the full abolition of the police.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/nytimes/status/1269645290199449607
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 08, 2020, 07:35:02 PM
“I do not support the full abolition of the police.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/nytimes/status/1269645290199449607

Camden did it, apparently with mixed success.  Now they have twice as many officers -- all from the county.  Murders are way down since 2012.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: mcliu on June 08, 2020, 08:08:21 PM
It’s just a bit disconcerting that he got so much abuse for taking a position that people don’t like. And apparently he’s a pretty progressive democrat.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 08, 2020, 08:13:32 PM
He might agree to it if there is a sensible plan to keep the streets patrolled, as they did in Camden with the County providing the officers.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 09, 2020, 05:24:37 AM
Has anyone in this thread participated in the protests? They are going on in most major cities now. If not why?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 09, 2020, 05:27:31 AM
Oh there is a very strong undercurrent of hypocrisy and swagger here but not much critical thinking. Am I satisfied, are you satisfied, this is your beef right?   Aren't you so concerned about his the overtaxed medical system will have to deal with this outbreak.  It isn't just affecting the protesters, its affecting everyone. In particular it affects the elderly population the most but now suddenly nobody cares. Let's not talk about that.

When we argue stocks we try to see all the different angles and dissent is encouraged. In politics it's just about picking the arguments that suit your end goal and swatting away all the rest.

At the end of the day you guys don't care about covid except you felt it gave an edge over the Republicans.  The proof is in.

Or you could say the proof is in because California's bars and gyms open this week.  Why the favoritism where you are silent about the gyms and bars, but vocal about the protests?  Is it because you don't like the protests?

Ive never worked out in a gym like this. Bar like this? Maybe. But man thats tight.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 06:30:46 AM
President Trump has weighed in on a stunning video of a 75-year-old protester who was seriously injured after being shoved by police officers in Buffalo, New York, last week, questioning whether it was a “set up.”

Video of the demonstration Thursday showed a row of officers walking toward the man and two pushing him. His head bled onto the sidewalk as officers walked past him, some looking down at him.

Trump claimed in his tweet that the man, Martin Gugino, “fell harder than he was pushed.”

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/black-lives-matter-protests-george-floyd-06-09-2020/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Pondside47 on June 09, 2020, 06:39:52 AM
Has anyone in this thread participated in the protests? They are going on in most major cities now. If not why?

Covid was my major concern before, but that is until I saw 76 year old Romney marching in D.C. I will be participating this week. As a Chinese, kneeling is pretty much a taboo in my culture and I believe that is a big reason why you don't see more Asians on the street. I will be helping my friends understanding meaning of kneeling in this context and hopefully I will get more of them out on the street.

The protest is spreading across the world, just like how civil right movement in the 60s coincided with the anti colonial movements across the globe. 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 09, 2020, 11:16:05 AM
From a police officers perspective. Not ignoring that there are issues. But this broad brush society is getting old. I’m now seeing social workers on social media claim they can do 99% of what police do....

https://www.lawofficer.com/america-we-are-leaving/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 09, 2020, 11:25:10 AM
This would seem to be a new low for law enforcement:

"Law enforcement officers were caught on camera slashing tyres near protests in Minneapolis over the death of George Floyd, with reports revealing the vehicles belonged not just to demonstrators, but medics and journalists as well."

I would not have believed this if I hadn't seen the videos.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 09, 2020, 11:27:59 AM
The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call. Acknowledging culture though, would solve the real problem. Something they have no interest in doing. There is an unhealthy "culture" with many police officers. This is no different than the disproportionate number of jerk offs on the high school football team. Are there racists on the football team? Sure. Sexist pigs? Yep. Homophobes? Yup. But its definitely not all of them, or likely even most and not really the root of the issue as much as the issue is outdated ideas of machoism. Being a "man", being "tough" and "us vs them". And guess what, the golf, baseball, and wrestling teams are typically WAYYY worse, they just dont get the spotlight. This is the crux of things here. There is definitely a culture problem with the cops. But these culture problems are also in many other places and its counter productive, unless you are a fundraising liberal, to just shine a light on "racism" and "durrrrr, bad cops!". "Fuck THA PO-lease" attitudes that are often prevalent, along with the "Get rich or die tryin" monikers many youngsters aspire to, doesnt help either. There are things both sides can do to solve the problem, but they'd rather finger point and rage on, because being lazy and taking the "racism" route requires less brainwork and effort.

For Mr. Floyd specifically, here's the rap sheet.

https://greatgameindia.com/george-floyd-criminal/


So......first, it goes without saying, that if you want to bring up the facts, you're branded a racist. Whatever, these people throw around their labels so much and so frivolously that they no longer have any significant meaning. But yea, saying Floyd was a standup citizen is a stretch. Did he deserve to die here? Absolutely not. But again, someone like this, arguably should have still been in jail; you want to talk about the system being screwed up? How TF does armed robbery, assault and possession of an unregistered firearm only get you 5 years? Seriously, you have to help yourself sometimes and this guy clearly took a liking to unlawfulness. So bigger picture, I am encouraged that positive changes will come about from this whole instance, it will just take time for it all to shake out. But effectively, this is taking a "lemon" and making lemonade. Trade a character like Floyd for some systematic reflection and positive social changes? Yup, every time.

Its sad, but you had a decorated police chief of 40 some odd years murdered in St Louis. The guy was checking on a friend's shop and was gunned down on Facebook Live by a thug protester who was looting the store. And while there is some news about this, there is a certain irony and pitifulness to the fact that we had a positive member of his community, a celebrated African American police officer killed by a criminal, and its basically just another footnote story no one cares about, whereas we had a criminal killed by a police officer, and people are turning him into a hero and a martyr...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 11:33:17 AM
From a police officers perspective. Not ignoring that there are issues. But this broad brush society is getting old. I’m now seeing social workers on social media claim they can do 99% of what police do....

https://www.lawofficer.com/america-we-are-leaving/

That article paints with a lot of broad brushes of its own.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 11:40:20 AM
On Tuesday, former President George W. Bush wrote that he and his wife Laura "are anguished by the brutal suffocation of George Floyd and disturbed by the injustice and fear that suffocate our country." The tragedy, he wrote, "raises a long overdue question: How do we end systemic racism in our society?"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/opinions/trumps-self-defeating-move-opinion-weekly-column-galant/index.html
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 09, 2020, 12:01:53 PM
This would seem to be a new low for law enforcement:

"Law enforcement officers were caught on camera slashing tyres near protests in Minneapolis over the death of George Floyd, with reports revealing the vehicles belonged not just to demonstrators, but medics and journalists as well."

I would not have believed this if I hadn't seen the videos.
Moreover the police confirmed it.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 12:13:16 PM
The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call. Acknowledging culture though, would solve the real problem. Something they have no interest in doing. There is an unhealthy "culture" with many police officers. This is no different than the disproportionate number of jerk offs on the high school football team. Are there racists on the football team? Sure. Sexist pigs? Yep. Homophobes? Yup. But its definitely not all of them, or likely even most and not really the root of the issue as much as the issue is outdated ideas of machoism. Being a "man", being "tough" and "us vs them". And guess what, the golf, baseball, and wrestling teams are typically WAYYY worse, they just dont get the spotlight. This is the crux of things here. There is definitely a culture problem with the cops. But these culture problems are also in many other places and its counter productive, unless you are a fundraising liberal, to just shine a light on "racism" and "durrrrr, bad cops!". "Fuck THA PO-lease" attitudes that are often prevalent, along with the "Get rich or die tryin" monikers many youngsters aspire to, doesnt help either. There are things both sides can do to solve the problem, but they'd rather finger point and rage on, because being lazy and taking the "racism" route requires less brainwork and effort.

For Mr. Floyd specifically, here's the rap sheet.

https://greatgameindia.com/george-floyd-criminal/


So......first, it goes without saying, that if you want to bring up the facts, you're branded a racist. Whatever, these people throw around their labels so much and so frivolously that they no longer have any significant meaning. But yea, saying Floyd was a standup citizen is a stretch. Did he deserve to die here? Absolutely not. But again, someone like this, arguably should have still been in jail; you want to talk about the system being screwed up? How TF does armed robbery, assault and possession of an unregistered firearm only get you 5 years? Seriously, you have to help yourself sometimes and this guy clearly took a liking to unlawfulness. So bigger picture, I am encouraged that positive changes will come about from this whole instance, it will just take time for it all to shake out. But effectively, this is taking a "lemon" and making lemonade. Trade a character like Floyd for some systematic reflection and positive social changes? Yup, every time.

Its sad, but you had a decorated police chief of 40 some odd years murdered in St Louis. The guy was checking on a friend's shop and was gunned down on Facebook Live by a thug protester who was looting the store. And while there is some news about this, there is a certain irony and pitifulness to the fact that we had a positive member of his community, a celebrated African American police officer killed by a criminal, and its basically just another footnote story no one cares about, whereas we had a criminal killed by a police officer, and people are turning him into a hero and a martyr...

Why is Floyd's rap sheet of any interest here? 

Why does that matter?

Why not ask why the officer was still wearing a badge?  After all, he fits the very culture you make reference to...

Only one of the 17 complaints against him resulted in disciplinary action constituting two letters of reprimand, according to police records.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tasneemnashrulla/minneapolis-derek-chauvin-history-of-complaints-george-floyd
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 09, 2020, 12:22:10 PM
From a police officers perspective. Not ignoring that there are issues. But this broad brush society is getting old. I’m now seeing social workers on social media claim they can do 99% of what police do....

https://www.lawofficer.com/america-we-are-leaving/
WOW! I'm looking for my violin. Don't know where I've put it.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 09, 2020, 12:59:59 PM
The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call. Acknowledging culture though, would solve the real problem. Something they have no interest in doing. There is an unhealthy "culture" with many police officers. This is no different than the disproportionate number of jerk offs on the high school football team. Are there racists on the football team? Sure. Sexist pigs? Yep. Homophobes? Yup. But its definitely not all of them, or likely even most and not really the root of the issue as much as the issue is outdated ideas of machoism. Being a "man", being "tough" and "us vs them". And guess what, the golf, baseball, and wrestling teams are typically WAYYY worse, they just dont get the spotlight. This is the crux of things here. There is definitely a culture problem with the cops. But these culture problems are also in many other places and its counter productive, unless you are a fundraising liberal, to just shine a light on "racism" and "durrrrr, bad cops!". "Fuck THA PO-lease" attitudes that are often prevalent, along with the "Get rich or die tryin" monikers many youngsters aspire to, doesnt help either. There are things both sides can do to solve the problem, but they'd rather finger point and rage on, because being lazy and taking the "racism" route requires less brainwork and effort.

For Mr. Floyd specifically, here's the rap sheet.

https://greatgameindia.com/george-floyd-criminal/


So......first, it goes without saying, that if you want to bring up the facts, you're branded a racist. Whatever, these people throw around their labels so much and so frivolously that they no longer have any significant meaning. But yea, saying Floyd was a standup citizen is a stretch. Did he deserve to die here? Absolutely not. But again, someone like this, arguably should have still been in jail; you want to talk about the system being screwed up? How TF does armed robbery, assault and possession of an unregistered firearm only get you 5 years? Seriously, you have to help yourself sometimes and this guy clearly took a liking to unlawfulness. So bigger picture, I am encouraged that positive changes will come about from this whole instance, it will just take time for it all to shake out. But effectively, this is taking a "lemon" and making lemonade. Trade a character like Floyd for some systematic reflection and positive social changes? Yup, every time.

Its sad, but you had a decorated police chief of 40 some odd years murdered in St Louis. The guy was checking on a friend's shop and was gunned down on Facebook Live by a thug protester who was looting the store. And while there is some news about this, there is a certain irony and pitifulness to the fact that we had a positive member of his community, a celebrated African American police officer killed by a criminal, and its basically just another footnote story no one cares about, whereas we had a criminal killed by a police officer, and people are turning him into a hero and a martyr...

Why is Floyd's rap sheet of any interest here? 

Why does that matter?

Why not ask why the officer was still wearing a badge?  After all, he fits the very culture you make reference to...

Only one of the 17 complaints against him resulted in disciplinary action constituting two letters of reprimand, according to police records.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tasneemnashrulla/minneapolis-derek-chauvin-history-of-complaints-george-floyd


In hockey there is a saying "good things happen when you go to the net".

In the same light, especially as an African American, bad things happen when you regularly commit crimes. Common sense.

You know there is a higher probability of having an unfair or unfortunate outcome because of biases...why would you even put yourself in the position to be subject to that, let alone do it intentionally?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 09, 2020, 01:02:41 PM
From a police officers perspective. Not ignoring that there are issues. But this broad brush society is getting old. I’m now seeing social workers on social media claim they can do 99% of what police do....

https://www.lawofficer.com/america-we-are-leaving/
WOW! I'm looking for my violin. Don't know where I've put it.

"Not ignoring there are issues." I've been pretty vocal about issues in the police force. Simply saying I think its dumb to hop on the defund police bandwagon that's trending among the "everyone gets a trophy crowd." Hard to judge someone else when you've never walked in their shoes. So painting with a broad brush is ignorant.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 09, 2020, 01:28:21 PM
The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call.

wait for it...

In the same light, especially as an African American, bad things happen when you regularly commit crimes. Common sense.

Jesus Eric I dont know if you are deliberately dense or just consistently need people to spell things out for you. Yes, the problem with both the police forces in many areas, as well as many lower income neighborhoods, is culture. Race is just the easy way out. Change the culture and it won't be about race anymore. There are plenty of examples of this.

At the same time, if you plan on breaking the law, duh, your odds of encountering law enforcement go up. Hard to comprehend I know. So especially if you feel you are unfairly targeted, avoid giving them a reason to come after you...hopefully you can understand it when put like that.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 09, 2020, 01:34:28 PM
People have been complaining about police brutality for DECADES. If the culture could be changed, why would this time be any different? In my view, the culture cannot change or it would have already. Therefore, more drastic responses are necessary.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 09, 2020, 01:44:36 PM
I recall in high school myself and a bunch of friends would "occasionally" get together and smoke some pot at one of the parks in town. The cops had an idea what was going on, and would random stop some of us and completely pat down. There were times when they'd even check kids who never had as much as a beer, let alone any "illegal" substance. It was harassment, but it was also probably the result of what they knew we were doing. Turns out a decade later a friend of mine sent an article detailing how one of the bigger jerk cops was busted for selling steroids and inappropriately texting with a minor whom he had previously detained.

So....upper middle class, predominantly white/Asian neighborhood. Kids doing illegal things. Cops abusing their authority. Some of them even being criminals themselves. Sound familiar?

It is probably accurate that the culture can not be changed. No different than you can change the football team. People that are wired a certain way will continue to gravitate there, and us vs them is hard to break. In fact, I'd gander that the more situations like this unfold, the more they view it as us vs them.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 09, 2020, 01:45:27 PM
President Trump has weighed in on a stunning video of a 75-year-old protester who was seriously injured after being shoved by police officers in Buffalo, New York, last week, questioning whether it was a “set up.”

Video of the demonstration Thursday showed a row of officers walking toward the man and two pushing him. His head bled onto the sidewalk as officers walked past him, some looking down at him.

Trump claimed in his tweet that the man, Martin Gugino, “fell harder than he was pushed.”

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/black-lives-matter-protests-george-floyd-06-09-2020/

I think a better question is to ask what kind of person walks towards the police line with officers wearing riot gear. After curfew, after the area had been cleared, and after he had been told to leave with everyone else in the area. And who would make any sort of motion towards a police officer in this environment? Absolutely the outcome was horrible but when is this guy held accountable? Am I the only one who knows to not do what this man did?

Does the guy have the right to do what he did and not expect any repercussion? Does he get charged if he doesn't get hurt?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 01:58:24 PM
removed and reposting a shorter version, this time he can't miss it.


The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture.


especially as an African American
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 09, 2020, 02:04:37 PM
LOL you cant make this shit up. Yes, Eric, George Floyd was black and had problems with the law throughout the majority of his adult life.... you originally asked what his rap sheet had to do with anything, I explained. I am sorry you are still confused.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 02:05:35 PM
LOL you cant make this shit up. Yes, Eric, George Floyd was black and had problems with the law throughout the majority of his adult life.... you originally asked what his rap sheet had to do with anything, I explained. I am sorry you are still confused.

It is quite obvious you are victim blaming.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 09, 2020, 02:12:35 PM
LOL you cant make this shit up. Yes, Eric, George Floyd was black and had problems with the law throughout the majority of his adult life.... you originally asked what his rap sheet had to do with anything, I explained. I am sorry you are still confused.

It is quite obvious you are victim blaming.

It is quite obvious you are (insert newly minted liberal buzzword meant to negatively label someone with a different viewpoint)

By victim blaming do you mean "assigning responsibility for one's role in a situation"? Then yes. A foreign concept to you and many where you're from, I know.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 02:18:29 PM
By victim blaming do you mean "assigning responsibility for one's role in a situation"? Then yes.

And hadn't George Floyd already repaid his debt to society prior to this incident?

You felt it necessary to say "especially as an African American", yet you stated that this is 'culture' and not 'racism'.  Can you explain?

Do you acknowledge that today's statement by Pres. George W. Bush acknowledging that we must address "systemic racism" runs contrary to your assessment that this is a 'lefty' thing?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 09, 2020, 02:28:54 PM
It is probably accurate that the culture can not be changed. No different than you can change the football team. People that are wired a certain way will continue to gravitate there, and us vs them is hard to break. In fact, I'd gander that the more situations like this unfold, the more they view it as us vs them.
Exactly. Therefore, cut their budgets, take away their toys, start independently prosecuting and firing them.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 02:30:50 PM
It is probably accurate that the culture can not be changed. No different than you can change the football team. People that are wired a certain way will continue to gravitate there, and us vs them is hard to break. In fact, I'd gander that the more situations like this unfold, the more they view it as us vs them.
Exactly. Therefore, cut their budgets, take away their toys, start independently prosecuting and firing them.

Yes, the argument toward policing cuts both ways.  Police the police to restore law and order.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 09, 2020, 02:46:12 PM
By victim blaming do you mean "assigning responsibility for one's role in a situation"? Then yes.

And hadn't George Floyd already repaid his debt to society prior to this incident?

You felt it necessary to say "especially as an African American", yet you stated that this is 'culture' and not 'racism'.  Can you explain?

Do you acknowledge that today's statement by Pres. George W. Bush acknowledging that we must address "systemic racism" runs contrary to your assessment that this is a 'lefty' thing?

Lack of responsibility for anything is a trait certain types of people, often of a specific political orientation, regularly embrace.

I said "especially as an African American" to highlight the common sense notion that, hey, genius, whether true or untrue, if you think being black is especially bad should you encounter a cop, you'd be wise to be extra careful to avoid them. Not make a regular habit of it. Sorry you missed that.

Bush is just the latest to hop on the bandwagon. Dubya as President I am sure you hated and complained regularly about. But now he s a source for your inspiration lol. As no free lunch said, whatever aids you politics driven argument.....

Racism is a lazy cop out because its an implicit pointing of the finger. Does racism still exist? Sure. It always will. But the scale is probably much smaller than its ever been. As many, many, have pointed out, its never been a better time, to be in America, than today, for just about everyone. This certainly isn't the 60's anymore and even many civil rights advocates acknowledge this.

While I try to sympathize with you, I cant because you simply dont think. For instance, what does Floyd's record have to do with anything? Do you have ANY clue how it works when officers get a call? When they identify the suspect and pull up his profile? So you are called in and the guy you have to confront has a history of violence and crime? You dont think this effects the mindset of what they realize they "may" have to prepare for(which invariably allows biases to creep in)? And then upon getting there, this guy proceeds to be violent? And then even if they take all proper precautions, something happens and theres still no shortage of jerks offs there shouting racism! Or maybe then you get one of those bad apples who says "im going to show this punk who's boss"...Theres responsibility on both sides and acknowledging it is how you start to address the problem.

But as we see, politically especially for your type, of which Trump is-just on the other end of the spectrum, its easier to throw out labels and be divisive. I swear if you guys weren't allowed to use your labels and fabricated social insults you wouldn't be able to talk. Victim blaming, victim shaming, not woke, homophone, racist, bigot, ladyboyaphobe, arachnophobe, sexist..... its never ending. Perhaps when Trump wins a second term we could start an education program for you guys to take vocabulary and English courses. Afterall, what you guys claim to want oh so badly, to "have a conversation about (social issue abc)", you arent even capable of because of the Pavlovian instinct to just whip out the labels and attack those whom have different opinions.

EDIT: In before "you're racist" for suggesting an English course"! Dont get caught up on that, it can be whatever language course helps you guys move on from these Twitter buzzwords.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 09, 2020, 02:49:57 PM
President Trump has weighed in on a stunning video of a 75-year-old protester who was seriously injured after being shoved by police officers in Buffalo, New York, last week, questioning whether it was a “set up.”

Video of the demonstration Thursday showed a row of officers walking toward the man and two pushing him. His head bled onto the sidewalk as officers walked past him, some looking down at him.

Trump claimed in his tweet that the man, Martin Gugino, “fell harder than he was pushed.”

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/black-lives-matter-protests-george-floyd-06-09-2020/

I think a better question is to ask what kind of person walks towards the police line with officers wearing riot gear. After curfew, after the area had been cleared, and after he had been told to leave with everyone else in the area. And who would make any sort of motion towards a police officer in this environment? Absolutely the outcome was horrible but when is this guy held accountable? Am I the only one who knows to not do what this man did?

Does the guy have the right to do what he did and not expect any repercussion? Does he get charged if he doesn't get hurt?
I'm not a cop, but I'm pretty sure that the correct police procedure when someone breaks the law is arrest not knock him to the ground and leave him there to bleed.

These protests are not about we should not have laws or that criminals should walk free. They're about police brutality.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 09, 2020, 02:52:30 PM

Lack of responsibility for anything is a trait certain types of people, often of a specific political orientation, regularly embrace.
Orange multi-millionaires, of the republican orientation?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 09, 2020, 02:56:23 PM

Lack of responsibility for anything is a trait certain types of people, often of a specific political orientation, regularly embrace.
Orange multi-millionaires, of the republican orientation?

You mean, Donald Trump, the lifelong Democrat, who even as of June 2016 was largely rejected and bad mouthed by Republicans and still to this day has a large swath of establishment Republicans who detest him? That Orange multi-millionaire?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 09, 2020, 02:57:16 PM
yea your boy.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 09, 2020, 03:12:25 PM
The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call. Acknowledging culture though, would solve the real problem. Something they have no interest in doing. There is an unhealthy "culture" with many police officers. This is no different than the disproportionate number of jerk offs on the high school football team. Are there racists on the football team? Sure. Sexist pigs? Yep. Homophobes? Yup. But its definitely not all of them, or likely even most and not really the root of the issue as much as the issue is outdated ideas of machoism. Being a "man", being "tough" and "us vs them". And guess what, the golf, baseball, and wrestling teams are typically WAYYY worse, they just dont get the spotlight. This is the crux of things here. There is definitely a culture problem with the cops. But these culture problems are also in many other places and its counter productive, unless you are a fundraising liberal, to just shine a light on "racism" and "durrrrr, bad cops!". "Fuck THA PO-lease" attitudes that are often prevalent, along with the "Get rich or die tryin" monikers many youngsters aspire to, doesnt help either. There are things both sides can do to solve the problem, but they'd rather finger point and rage on, because being lazy and taking the "racism" route requires less brainwork and effort.

For Mr. Floyd specifically, here's the rap sheet.

https://greatgameindia.com/george-floyd-criminal/


So......first, it goes without saying, that if you want to bring up the facts, you're branded a racist. Whatever, these people throw around their labels so much and so frivolously that they no longer have any significant meaning. But yea, saying Floyd was a standup citizen is a stretch. Did he deserve to die here? Absolutely not. But again, someone like this, arguably should have still been in jail; you want to talk about the system being screwed up? How TF does armed robbery, assault and possession of an unregistered firearm only get you 5 years? Seriously, you have to help yourself sometimes and this guy clearly took a liking to unlawfulness. So bigger picture, I am encouraged that positive changes will come about from this whole instance, it will just take time for it all to shake out. But effectively, this is taking a "lemon" and making lemonade. Trade a character like Floyd for some systematic reflection and positive social changes? Yup, every time.

Its sad, but you had a decorated police chief of 40 some odd years murdered in St Louis. The guy was checking on a friend's shop and was gunned down on Facebook Live by a thug protester who was looting the store. And while there is some news about this, there is a certain irony and pitifulness to the fact that we had a positive member of his community, a celebrated African American police officer killed by a criminal, and its basically just another footnote story no one cares about, whereas we had a criminal killed by a police officer, and people are turning him into a hero and a martyr...

I fully agree with you in terms of Floyd being no angel.  Certainly not the martyr that the protesters make him out to be.  But he was not resisting arrest.  There were three men on top of him and another ready to get on top of him if necessary.  He was saying he cannot breath.  Even if he did pass a $20 counterfeit note, was the force used to restrain him for the crime not excessive?  We don't have to discuss anything else...not politics, not race, not his criminal background, not the backgrounds of the police officers, nothing else.  Was the force used on Floyd excessive for the crime, and did police assess the situation accurately and do what would be expected of them?

If you can truthfully answer that question, then you would have to agree that Chauvin should be charged with manslaughter, the three other cops with something less than manslaughter and higher than aggravated assault at the very least.  I do think they are trying to make an example of the officers with murder 2 on Chauvin and excessive bail on them all and I don't necessarily agree with that.  They should be tried like they would in any other circumstance.  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 03:16:33 PM
I said "especially as an African American" to highlight the common sense notion that, hey, genius, whether true or untrue, if you think being black is especially bad should you encounter a cop, you'd be wise to be extra careful to avoid them. Not make a regular habit of it. Sorry you missed that.

beep... beep... beep...

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 09, 2020, 03:59:55 PM
The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call. Acknowledging culture though, would solve the real problem. Something they have no interest in doing. There is an unhealthy "culture" with many police officers. This is no different than the disproportionate number of jerk offs on the high school football team. Are there racists on the football team? Sure. Sexist pigs? Yep. Homophobes? Yup. But its definitely not all of them, or likely even most and not really the root of the issue as much as the issue is outdated ideas of machoism. Being a "man", being "tough" and "us vs them". And guess what, the golf, baseball, and wrestling teams are typically WAYYY worse, they just dont get the spotlight. This is the crux of things here. There is definitely a culture problem with the cops. But these culture problems are also in many other places and its counter productive, unless you are a fundraising liberal, to just shine a light on "racism" and "durrrrr, bad cops!". "Fuck THA PO-lease" attitudes that are often prevalent, along with the "Get rich or die tryin" monikers many youngsters aspire to, doesnt help either. There are things both sides can do to solve the problem, but they'd rather finger point and rage on, because being lazy and taking the "racism" route requires less brainwork and effort.

For Mr. Floyd specifically, here's the rap sheet.

https://greatgameindia.com/george-floyd-criminal/


So......first, it goes without saying, that if you want to bring up the facts, you're branded a racist. Whatever, these people throw around their labels so much and so frivolously that they no longer have any significant meaning. But yea, saying Floyd was a standup citizen is a stretch. Did he deserve to die here? Absolutely not. But again, someone like this, arguably should have still been in jail; you want to talk about the system being screwed up? How TF does armed robbery, assault and possession of an unregistered firearm only get you 5 years? Seriously, you have to help yourself sometimes and this guy clearly took a liking to unlawfulness. So bigger picture, I am encouraged that positive changes will come about from this whole instance, it will just take time for it all to shake out. But effectively, this is taking a "lemon" and making lemonade. Trade a character like Floyd for some systematic reflection and positive social changes? Yup, every time.

Its sad, but you had a decorated police chief of 40 some odd years murdered in St Louis. The guy was checking on a friend's shop and was gunned down on Facebook Live by a thug protester who was looting the store. And while there is some news about this, there is a certain irony and pitifulness to the fact that we had a positive member of his community, a celebrated African American police officer killed by a criminal, and its basically just another footnote story no one cares about, whereas we had a criminal killed by a police officer, and people are turning him into a hero and a martyr...

I fully agree with you in terms of Floyd being no angel.  Certainly not the martyr that the protesters make him out to be.  But he was not resisting arrest.  There were three men on top of him and another ready to get on top of him if necessary.  He was saying he cannot breath.  Even if he did pass a $20 counterfeit note, was the force used to restrain him for the crime not excessive?  We don't have to discuss anything else...not politics, not race, not his criminal background, not the backgrounds of the police officers, nothing else.  Was the force used on Floyd excessive for the crime, and did police assess the situation accurately and do what would be expected of them?

If you can truthfully answer that question, then you would have to agree that Chauvin should be charged with manslaughter, the three other cops with something less than manslaughter and higher than aggravated assault at the very least.  I do think they are trying to make an example of the officers with murder 2 on Chauvin and excessive bail on them all and I don't necessarily agree with that.  They should be tried like they would in any other circumstance.  Cheers!

Yes of course. Chauvin fully deserves the book thrown at him. The other officers I think it depends. Again, if you know how law enforcement culture works, you'd know that 2 rookies are in no way, shape, or form thinking about undermining their superiors. In hind site, had they known what would have unfolded, I am sure they would have. But if what happens 99% of the time does, they treat him poorly and no one cares, well, you really wouldn't want to be either of those 2 rookies and have to go back to the station and deal with what comes your way from the veterans. Again, culture.

So I already think they carelessly opened a can of worms. They rushed to appease the public and now have a sticky situation. Some of the officers were clearly overcharged. Which now will undoubtedly produce some "not guilty" verdicts, which will then unleash the furies of the uneducated masses who clearly want blood. Its funny but "no justice, no peace" is what they say, but something tells me that all they want is "their" version of "justice" and won't settle for true justice which involves things like due process, the presumption of innocence, and a trial amongst ones peers.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 09, 2020, 05:33:07 PM
The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call. Acknowledging culture though, would solve the real problem. Something they have no interest in doing. There is an unhealthy "culture" with many police officers. This is no different than the disproportionate number of jerk offs on the high school football team. Are there racists on the football team? Sure. Sexist pigs? Yep. Homophobes? Yup. But its definitely not all of them, or likely even most and not really the root of the issue as much as the issue is outdated ideas of machoism. Being a "man", being "tough" and "us vs them". And guess what, the golf, baseball, and wrestling teams are typically WAYYY worse, they just dont get the spotlight. This is the crux of things here. There is definitely a culture problem with the cops. But these culture problems are also in many other places and its counter productive, unless you are a fundraising liberal, to just shine a light on "racism" and "durrrrr, bad cops!". "Fuck THA PO-lease" attitudes that are often prevalent, along with the "Get rich or die tryin" monikers many youngsters aspire to, doesnt help either. There are things both sides can do to solve the problem, but they'd rather finger point and rage on, because being lazy and taking the "racism" route requires less brainwork and effort.

For Mr. Floyd specifically, here's the rap sheet.

https://greatgameindia.com/george-floyd-criminal/


So......first, it goes without saying, that if you want to bring up the facts, you're branded a racist. Whatever, these people throw around their labels so much and so frivolously that they no longer have any significant meaning. But yea, saying Floyd was a standup citizen is a stretch. Did he deserve to die here? Absolutely not. But again, someone like this, arguably should have still been in jail; you want to talk about the system being screwed up? How TF does armed robbery, assault and possession of an unregistered firearm only get you 5 years? Seriously, you have to help yourself sometimes and this guy clearly took a liking to unlawfulness. So bigger picture, I am encouraged that positive changes will come about from this whole instance, it will just take time for it all to shake out. But effectively, this is taking a "lemon" and making lemonade. Trade a character like Floyd for some systematic reflection and positive social changes? Yup, every time.

Its sad, but you had a decorated police chief of 40 some odd years murdered in St Louis. The guy was checking on a friend's shop and was gunned down on Facebook Live by a thug protester who was looting the store. And while there is some news about this, there is a certain irony and pitifulness to the fact that we had a positive member of his community, a celebrated African American police officer killed by a criminal, and its basically just another footnote story no one cares about, whereas we had a criminal killed by a police officer, and people are turning him into a hero and a martyr...

I fully agree with you in terms of Floyd being no angel.  Certainly not the martyr that the protesters make him out to be.  But he was not resisting arrest.  There were three men on top of him and another ready to get on top of him if necessary.  He was saying he cannot breath.  Even if he did pass a $20 counterfeit note, was the force used to restrain him for the crime not excessive?  We don't have to discuss anything else...not politics, not race, not his criminal background, not the backgrounds of the police officers, nothing else.  Was the force used on Floyd excessive for the crime, and did police assess the situation accurately and do what would be expected of them?

If you can truthfully answer that question, then you would have to agree that Chauvin should be charged with manslaughter, the three other cops with something less than manslaughter and higher than aggravated assault at the very least.  I do think they are trying to make an example of the officers with murder 2 on Chauvin and excessive bail on them all and I don't necessarily agree with that.  They should be tried like they would in any other circumstance.  Cheers!

Yes of course. Chauvin fully deserves the book thrown at him. The other officers I think it depends. Again, if you know how law enforcement culture works, you'd know that 2 rookies are in no way, shape, or form thinking about undermining their superiors. In hind site, had they known what would have unfolded, I am sure they would have. But if what happens 99% of the time does, they treat him poorly and no one cares, well, you really wouldn't want to be either of those 2 rookies and have to go back to the station and deal with what comes your way from the veterans. Again, culture.

So I already think they carelessly opened a can of worms. They rushed to appease the public and now have a sticky situation. Some of the officers were clearly overcharged. Which now will undoubtedly produce some "not guilty" verdicts, which will then unleash the furies of the uneducated masses who clearly want blood. Its funny but "no justice, no peace" is what they say, but something tells me that all they want is "their" version of "justice" and won't settle for true justice which involves things like due process, the presumption of innocence, and a trial amongst ones peers.

Again, I don't disagree with you.  But you can probably understand the anger flowing after what people saw.  Right or wrong!  The President should have done everything he could to calm the situation, and then prevent the looting using the National Guard.  But he threw more gasoline on the fire instead!

Yes, there were others doing the same on the protesters side, but we are talking about the President...not the Al Sharpton's, Rosie O'Donnell's, etc.  We are talking about the President, once again, creating division instead of healing.  No other President in memory, has behaved the way this dipshit has when it comes to keeping his big mouth shut when not required.  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 09, 2020, 05:36:47 PM
“Yes of course. Chauvin fully deserves the book thrown at him. The other officers I think it depends. Again, if you know how law enforcement culture works, you'd know that 2 rookies are in no way, shape, or form thinking about undermining their superiors. In hind site, had they known what would have unfolded, I am sure they would have. But if what happens 99% of the time does, they treat him poorly and no one cares, well, you really wouldn't want to be either of those 2 rookies and have to go back to the station and deal with what comes your way from the veterans. Again, culture.

So I already think they carelessly opened a can of worms. They rushed to appease the public and now have a sticky situation. Some of the officers were clearly overcharged. Which now will undoubtedly produce some "not guilty" verdicts, which will then unleash the furies of the uneducated masses who clearly want blood. Its funny but "no justice, no peace" is what they say, but something tells me that all they want is "their" version of "justice" and won't settle for true justice which involves things like due process, the presumption of innocence, and a trial amongst ones peers.”

This is what I was alluding to in my posts the other day. Those who think that the rookies should be charged because they didn't stop Chauvin obviously have never had any military experience. A guy with four days on the force is in no position to tell his 19 year veteran training officer what to do. Even so, he asked Chauvin several times to roll Floyd over. By charging these guys with such a serious felony is just setting up a situation where there will be more trouble if/when they are found not guilty. For those who still think they must pay a price, remember they have been fired and will spend the next months/years in limbo and trying to defend themselves.

Remember one guy was on his THIRD SHIFT with the force and the other had been on the force for FOUR DAYS.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Cigarbutt on June 09, 2020, 06:24:26 PM
People have been complaining about police brutality for DECADES. If the culture could be changed, why would this time be any different? In my view, the culture cannot change or it would have already. Therefore, more drastic responses are necessary.
Drastic responses?
Let's go bottom up.
1-At a basic level, the incident will lead to a better definition of 'malicious intent' and what is 'reasonable' behavior under the circumstances. Work in progress with consequences.
2-At a more systemic level, a low-hanging fruit seems to be the requirement for more stringent criteria concerning selection, training, hiring and job maintenance. Police work attracts people who affiliate well with rules and who can effectively master efficient first-level thinking during difficult situations. i'm glad people with such attributes exist. Unfortunately, police work also tends to attract people with vicious personality traits.
3-Drastic changes need to take into account the larger 'culture' which includes a relatively high level of violence and gun 'ownership' as well as a 'choice' to maintain a trickle-down type of social safety net which tends to cause the poor social outcomes to meet the system through an armed officer and to end up imprisoned. i wonder if investments in 'de-escalation' training could be more targeted and more efficient if made in association with higher NPV projects more upstream. The point i'm trying to make is that repressive police can be an intrinsic problem that needs reform but is also sort of a natural necessity to deal with the growing inequality problem and weakening pillars of democracy. Race is an issue but, at large, mortality arising from police interventions show a high prevalence of significant mental disease in people triggering the interventions (more than 50%) not even taking into account the heavy load of severe personality disorders (anti-social etc). It's difficult to 'negotiate' with a decompensated person who stopped using medications or switched drugs.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 06:53:18 PM
How many days of experience does a junior officer need before it is a crime to stand by and watch while a seasoned officer kills another man in this manner? 

I don't believe that setting such a legal standard would be a wise idea.  What else could they have done but charge these men?  I doubt it was because they rushed into it; it looks as though they don't have a choice.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 09, 2020, 08:30:20 PM
Drastic responses?
Let's go bottom up.
1-At a basic level, the incident will lead to a better definition of 'malicious intent' and what is 'reasonable' behavior under the circumstances. Work in progress with consequences.
2-At a more systemic level, a low-hanging fruit seems to be the requirement for more stringent criteria concerning selection, training, hiring and job maintenance. Police work attracts people who affiliate well with rules and who can effectively master efficient first-level thinking during difficult situations. i'm glad people with such attributes exist. Unfortunately, police work also tends to attract people with vicious personality traits.
3-Drastic changes need to take into account the larger 'culture' which includes a relatively high level of violence and gun 'ownership' as well as a 'choice' to maintain a trickle-down type of social safety net which tends to cause the poor social outcomes to meet the system through an armed officer and to end up imprisoned. i wonder if investments in 'de-escalation' training could be more targeted and more efficient if made in association with higher NPV projects more upstream. The point i'm trying to make is that repressive police can be an intrinsic problem that needs reform but is also sort of a natural necessity to deal with the growing inequality problem and weakening pillars of democracy. Race is an issue but, at large, mortality arising from police interventions show a high prevalence of significant mental disease in people triggering the interventions (more than 50%) not even taking into account the heavy load of severe personality disorders (anti-social etc). It's difficult to 'negotiate' with a decompensated person who stopped using medications or switched drugs.

I understand you are making counterpoints but here are my blunt responses (news these days has sharpened the edges)

1-Seattle PD threw stun grenades into a medical tent (https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gzd3is/seattle_pd_hit_a_21_year_old_female_directly_in/)
 This would be illegal in wartime per the Geneva convention. Now, where does that fall on the scale of malicious intent vs. reasonable?

2- Only a problem if you empower these individuals to the extent that they can abuse this power. This includes the power to avoid responsibility. In fact, knowing the fact that law enforcement attracts these people ("vicious") is further support that these groups should be de-clawed.

3- I don't find this convincing. Yes the environment is difficult. Yes being a cop is stressful. Yes the people they interact with are largely unstable. I don't see how this excuses brutality. And if you want to make the argument that this situation requires a well-tooled PD, how can you support this argument when it is clear PDs nationwide cannot responsibly use their superior tools?

Additionally, this is a one-sided escalation. Poverty and mental illness are not caused by nor responses to escalating police force. However police brutality is a response to these factors. It is a mis-allocation of energy and resources - who is to blame?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 09, 2020, 11:39:15 PM
President Trump has weighed in on a stunning video of a 75-year-old protester who was seriously injured after being shoved by police officers in Buffalo, New York, last week, questioning whether it was a “set up.”

Video of the demonstration Thursday showed a row of officers walking toward the man and two pushing him. His head bled onto the sidewalk as officers walked past him, some looking down at him.

Trump claimed in his tweet that the man, Martin Gugino, “fell harder than he was pushed.”

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/black-lives-matter-protests-george-floyd-06-09-2020/

I think a better question is to ask what kind of person walks towards the police line with officers wearing riot gear.
...


He was ANTIFA, and he was trying to scan the police to black out their communications equipment:

Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment.
@OANN
  I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270333484528214018

Haha, somebody get a psychologist already.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Cigarbutt on June 10, 2020, 05:32:15 AM
Drastic responses?
Let's go bottom up.
1-At a basic level, the incident will lead to a better definition of 'malicious intent' and what is 'reasonable' behavior under the circumstances. Work in progress with consequences.
2-At a more systemic level, a low-hanging fruit seems to be the requirement for more stringent criteria concerning selection, training, hiring and job maintenance. Police work attracts people who affiliate well with rules and who can effectively master efficient first-level thinking during difficult situations. i'm glad people with such attributes exist. Unfortunately, police work also tends to attract people with vicious personality traits.
3-Drastic changes need to take into account the larger 'culture' which includes a relatively high level of violence and gun 'ownership' as well as a 'choice' to maintain a trickle-down type of social safety net which tends to cause the poor social outcomes to meet the system through an armed officer and to end up imprisoned. i wonder if investments in 'de-escalation' training could be more targeted and more efficient if made in association with higher NPV projects more upstream. The point i'm trying to make is that repressive police can be an intrinsic problem that needs reform but is also sort of a natural necessity to deal with the growing inequality problem and weakening pillars of democracy. Race is an issue but, at large, mortality arising from police interventions show a high prevalence of significant mental disease in people triggering the interventions (more than 50%) not even taking into account the heavy load of severe personality disorders (anti-social etc). It's difficult to 'negotiate' with a decompensated person who stopped using medications or switched drugs.
I understand you are making counterpoints but here are my blunt responses (news these days has sharpened the edges)
1-Seattle PD threw stun grenades into a medical tent (https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gzd3is/seattle_pd_hit_a_21_year_old_female_directly_in/)
 This would be illegal in wartime per the Geneva convention. Now, where does that fall on the scale of malicious intent vs. reasonable?
2- Only a problem if you empower these individuals to the extent that they can abuse this power. This includes the power to avoid responsibility. In fact, knowing the fact that law enforcement attracts these people ("vicious") is further support that these groups should be de-clawed.
3- I don't find this convincing. Yes the environment is difficult. Yes being a cop is stressful. Yes the people they interact with are largely unstable. I don't see how this excuses brutality. And if you want to make the argument that this situation requires a well-tooled PD, how can you support this argument when it is clear PDs nationwide cannot responsibly use their superior tools?
Additionally, this is a one-sided escalation. Poverty and mental illness are not caused by nor responses to escalating police force. However police brutality is a response to these factors. It is a mis-allocation of energy and resources - who is to blame?
Thank you for the response. This is an investment board but will add the following because cultural change (positive) is an interest of mine.
In reaction to your post, i did spend some limited time on the Seattle situation. You're likely correct that excess violence was used in certain circumstances. One has to be careful however about selective videos that, perhaps, do not supply the granular information that would have been available to somebody in the action (heat of the moment). i saw a short video when police officers deployed the usual tactics to disperse (apparently without notice?) but did not see any public comments about the spontaneous and impressive deployment of umbrellas. It was a sunny day.

In terms of cultural change, there are always bad apples (to varying degrees) and there is often a critical mass of people who can be swayed in the right (or wrong) direction. Culture change is difficult and takes time. If interested, take a look at the following example (New Orleans). It's unclear if the green shoot is working but i would say it's a step in the right direction. One of the links describe how such an approach can be used in other domains: airplane pilots, medical and others. Related to the concept of bystandership, in the 80s, when i was a young adult, driving under the influence of alcohol was more socially acceptable and it would have been very difficult, given the peer-pressure environment, to tell someone not to drive. These days, the situation for the young adults in the household is very different and they typically react in an almost opposite way as they now feel it would be inappropriate not to tell. But changes don't occur in a vacuum.
https://epic.nola.gov/epic/media/Assets/Aronie-Lopez,-Keeping-Each-Other-Safe.pdf
https://www.nationalpublicsafetypartnership.org/Documents/NOPD_EPIC_Presentation.pdf

For those reflecting about what is 'deserved' for the main participant and the three bystanders, the following is interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_v._Connor
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Viking on June 10, 2020, 09:34:53 AM
The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call. Acknowledging culture though, would solve the real problem. Something they have no interest in doing. There is an unhealthy "culture" with many police officers. This is no different than the disproportionate number of jerk offs on the high school football team. Are there racists on the football team? Sure. Sexist pigs? Yep. Homophobes? Yup. But its definitely not all of them, or likely even most and not really the root of the issue as much as the issue is outdated ideas of machoism. Being a "man", being "tough" and "us vs them". And guess what, the golf, baseball, and wrestling teams are typically WAYYY worse, they just dont get the spotlight. This is the crux of things here. There is definitely a culture problem with the cops. But these culture problems are also in many other places and its counter productive, unless you are a fundraising liberal, to just shine a light on "racism" and "durrrrr, bad cops!". "Fuck THA PO-lease" attitudes that are often prevalent, along with the "Get rich or die tryin" monikers many youngsters aspire to, doesnt help either. There are things both sides can do to solve the problem, but they'd rather finger point and rage on, because being lazy and taking the "racism" route requires less brainwork and effort.

For Mr. Floyd specifically, here's the rap sheet.

https://greatgameindia.com/george-floyd-criminal/


So......first, it goes without saying, that if you want to bring up the facts, you're branded a racist. Whatever, these people throw around their labels so much and so frivolously that they no longer have any significant meaning. But yea, saying Floyd was a standup citizen is a stretch. Did he deserve to die here? Absolutely not. But again, someone like this, arguably should have still been in jail; you want to talk about the system being screwed up? How TF does armed robbery, assault and possession of an unregistered firearm only get you 5 years? Seriously, you have to help yourself sometimes and this guy clearly took a liking to unlawfulness. So bigger picture, I am encouraged that positive changes will come about from this whole instance, it will just take time for it all to shake out. But effectively, this is taking a "lemon" and making lemonade. Trade a character like Floyd for some systematic reflection and positive social changes? Yup, every time.

Its sad, but you had a decorated police chief of 40 some odd years murdered in St Louis. The guy was checking on a friend's shop and was gunned down on Facebook Live by a thug protester who was looting the store. And while there is some news about this, there is a certain irony and pitifulness to the fact that we had a positive member of his community, a celebrated African American police officer killed by a criminal, and its basically just another footnote story no one cares about, whereas we had a criminal killed by a police officer, and people are turning him into a hero and a martyr...

I fully agree with you in terms of Floyd being no angel.  Certainly not the martyr that the protesters make him out to be.  But he was not resisting arrest.  There were three men on top of him and another ready to get on top of him if necessary.  He was saying he cannot breath.  Even if he did pass a $20 counterfeit note, was the force used to restrain him for the crime not excessive?  We don't have to discuss anything else...not politics, not race, not his criminal background, not the backgrounds of the police officers, nothing else.  Was the force used on Floyd excessive for the crime, and did police assess the situation accurately and do what would be expected of them?

If you can truthfully answer that question, then you would have to agree that Chauvin should be charged with manslaughter, the three other cops with something less than manslaughter and higher than aggravated assault at the very least.  I do think they are trying to make an example of the officers with murder 2 on Chauvin and excessive bail on them all and I don't necessarily agree with that.  They should be tried like they would in any other circumstance.  Cheers!

Yes of course. Chauvin fully deserves the book thrown at him. The other officers I think it depends. Again, if you know how law enforcement culture works, you'd know that 2 rookies are in no way, shape, or form thinking about undermining their superiors. In hind site, had they known what would have unfolded, I am sure they would have. But if what happens 99% of the time does, they treat him poorly and no one cares, well, you really wouldn't want to be either of those 2 rookies and have to go back to the station and deal with what comes your way from the veterans. Again, culture.

So I already think they carelessly opened a can of worms. They rushed to appease the public and now have a sticky situation. Some of the officers were clearly overcharged. Which now will undoubtedly produce some "not guilty" verdicts, which will then unleash the furies of the uneducated masses who clearly want blood. Its funny but "no justice, no peace" is what they say, but something tells me that all they want is "their" version of "justice" and won't settle for true justice which involves things like due process, the presumption of innocence, and a trial amongst ones peers.

Again, I don't disagree with you.  But you can probably understand the anger flowing after what people saw.  Right or wrong!  The President should have done everything he could to calm the situation, and then prevent the looting using the National Guard.  But he threw more gasoline on the fire instead!

Yes, there were others doing the same on the protesters side, but we are talking about the President...not the Al Sharpton's, Rosie O'Donnell's, etc.  We are talking about the President, once again, creating division instead of healing.  No other President in memory, has behaved the way this dipshit has when it comes to keeping his big mouth shut when not required.  Cheers!

Yes, the issue is simple. A man was murdered by a police officer. The other three police officers allowed it to happen. All 4 will now face the consequences for their actions. The judicial system will now do its job.

The other issue is also very simple. The US has serious race/racism issues - according to most blacks, which are 15% of the US population. A large percentage of the white population do not agree. And that explains why this issue continues to fester (since the Civil War).

Why is racism still such a huge issue in the US? Because the issues does not affect most whites or their children. Drew Brees and his initial comments are a great example (and he has many close black friends). If guys like that do not get it then it is not surprising that a large segment of the white population do not get it.

To get a better understanding, all you have to do is put yourself in their shoes for one day. Pretty simple and effective.

And it doesn’t help that the President has no capacity or desire to deal with this issue (to put it politely). Among other things, he is a role model for all Americans, especially children. This explains why change on this issue is so slow.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: arcube on June 10, 2020, 09:46:25 AM
Excellent summary, Viking.

The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call. Acknowledging culture though, would solve the real problem. Something they have no interest in doing. There is an unhealthy "culture" with many police officers. This is no different than the disproportionate number of jerk offs on the high school football team. Are there racists on the football team? Sure. Sexist pigs? Yep. Homophobes? Yup. But its definitely not all of them, or likely even most and not really the root of the issue as much as the issue is outdated ideas of machoism. Being a "man", being "tough" and "us vs them". And guess what, the golf, baseball, and wrestling teams are typically WAYYY worse, they just dont get the spotlight. This is the crux of things here. There is definitely a culture problem with the cops. But these culture problems are also in many other places and its counter productive, unless you are a fundraising liberal, to just shine a light on "racism" and "durrrrr, bad cops!". "Fuck THA PO-lease" attitudes that are often prevalent, along with the "Get rich or die tryin" monikers many youngsters aspire to, doesnt help either. There are things both sides can do to solve the problem, but they'd rather finger point and rage on, because being lazy and taking the "racism" route requires less brainwork and effort.

For Mr. Floyd specifically, here's the rap sheet.

https://greatgameindia.com/george-floyd-criminal/


So......first, it goes without saying, that if you want to bring up the facts, you're branded a racist. Whatever, these people throw around their labels so much and so frivolously that they no longer have any significant meaning. But yea, saying Floyd was a standup citizen is a stretch. Did he deserve to die here? Absolutely not. But again, someone like this, arguably should have still been in jail; you want to talk about the system being screwed up? How TF does armed robbery, assault and possession of an unregistered firearm only get you 5 years? Seriously, you have to help yourself sometimes and this guy clearly took a liking to unlawfulness. So bigger picture, I am encouraged that positive changes will come about from this whole instance, it will just take time for it all to shake out. But effectively, this is taking a "lemon" and making lemonade. Trade a character like Floyd for some systematic reflection and positive social changes? Yup, every time.

Its sad, but you had a decorated police chief of 40 some odd years murdered in St Louis. The guy was checking on a friend's shop and was gunned down on Facebook Live by a thug protester who was looting the store. And while there is some news about this, there is a certain irony and pitifulness to the fact that we had a positive member of his community, a celebrated African American police officer killed by a criminal, and its basically just another footnote story no one cares about, whereas we had a criminal killed by a police officer, and people are turning him into a hero and a martyr...

I fully agree with you in terms of Floyd being no angel.  Certainly not the martyr that the protesters make him out to be.  But he was not resisting arrest.  There were three men on top of him and another ready to get on top of him if necessary.  He was saying he cannot breath.  Even if he did pass a $20 counterfeit note, was the force used to restrain him for the crime not excessive?  We don't have to discuss anything else...not politics, not race, not his criminal background, not the backgrounds of the police officers, nothing else.  Was the force used on Floyd excessive for the crime, and did police assess the situation accurately and do what would be expected of them?

If you can truthfully answer that question, then you would have to agree that Chauvin should be charged with manslaughter, the three other cops with something less than manslaughter and higher than aggravated assault at the very least.  I do think they are trying to make an example of the officers with murder 2 on Chauvin and excessive bail on them all and I don't necessarily agree with that.  They should be tried like they would in any other circumstance.  Cheers!

Yes of course. Chauvin fully deserves the book thrown at him. The other officers I think it depends. Again, if you know how law enforcement culture works, you'd know that 2 rookies are in no way, shape, or form thinking about undermining their superiors. In hind site, had they known what would have unfolded, I am sure they would have. But if what happens 99% of the time does, they treat him poorly and no one cares, well, you really wouldn't want to be either of those 2 rookies and have to go back to the station and deal with what comes your way from the veterans. Again, culture.

So I already think they carelessly opened a can of worms. They rushed to appease the public and now have a sticky situation. Some of the officers were clearly overcharged. Which now will undoubtedly produce some "not guilty" verdicts, which will then unleash the furies of the uneducated masses who clearly want blood. Its funny but "no justice, no peace" is what they say, but something tells me that all they want is "their" version of "justice" and won't settle for true justice which involves things like due process, the presumption of innocence, and a trial amongst ones peers.

Again, I don't disagree with you.  But you can probably understand the anger flowing after what people saw.  Right or wrong!  The President should have done everything he could to calm the situation, and then prevent the looting using the National Guard.  But he threw more gasoline on the fire instead!

Yes, there were others doing the same on the protesters side, but we are talking about the President...not the Al Sharpton's, Rosie O'Donnell's, etc.  We are talking about the President, once again, creating division instead of healing.  No other President in memory, has behaved the way this dipshit has when it comes to keeping his big mouth shut when not required.  Cheers!

Yes, the issue is simple. A man was murdered by a police officer. The other three police officers allowed it to happen. All 4 will now face the consequences for their actions. The judicial system will now do its job.

The other issue is also very simple. The US has serious race/racism issues - according to most blacks, which are 15% of the US population. A large percentage of the white population do not agree. And that explains why this issue continues to fester (since the Civil War).

Why is racism still such a huge issue in the US? Because the issues does not affect most whites or their children. Drew Brees and his initial comments are a great example (and he has many close black friends). If guys like that do not get it then it is not surprising that a large segment of the white population do not get it.

To get a better understanding, all you have to do is put yourself in their shoes for one day. Pretty simple and effective.

And it doesn’t help that the President has no capacity or desire to deal with this issue (to put it politely). Among other things, he is a role model for all Americans, especially children. This explains why change on this issue is so slow.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 10, 2020, 10:32:09 AM
Ok, so lets tackle some of this then...

Why is it, that the cries of "racism" are SOOOOO much more prevalent amongst the African American community than any other minority group? Is there the belief that everyone just has it out for black people? Are only white people supposedly racist to black people? Are other minority groups racist to them? What if an African American did something to another African American that if a white person did, would be deemed racist? Are they racist?

Why, without getting too much into the numbers, are the violent crime statistics so staggeringly skewed? Surely racism and bad policing cant produce things like murder statistics that indicate over half the murders in America are committed by African Americans?

Is it possible that one of the reasons they believe this is so pronounced are simply, again, culture? For the same reason Elizabeth Warren thought she was an Indian(her parents told her) despite clearly not being one, is it possible that generations of blacks have passed down the notion that "white people are racist"? Which would make sense in the context that for many, many generations, this was an absolutely true statement.

I just dont see in society how this is truly as big an issue as many make it. You have never had a time in history where minority groups are specifically accommodated or as influential as they are today.

I cant help but wonder if the following comparison is appropriate. In grade school I had a friend who always seemed to complain about how his teachers were out to get him and thats why his grades were bad. EVERY single teacher, he said had a problem with him. I ask "do you think the fact that you skip class often, or when you do show up, clown around or sleep has anything to do with it?" To which he replied, "no. I see other people do it to and I dont see them having problems". Then the conversation pivoted to, "well, if you know you consistently have a problem with every teacher, what makes more sense? To complain and sit around waiting for all of them to change? Or maybe make some changes yourself, or at the very least, find a more productive way to live with what you believe the situation to be?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 10, 2020, 10:50:27 AM
Like I pointed out earlier, white Americans are 33% more likely to be killed by cops than Asian Americans.  This cannot be explained by an assumption that there is more discrimination towards white people as compared to Asian people.

Latinos make up roughly 18% of the population and roughly 18% of those killed by cops.

But African Americans are killed by cops at the rate of more than twice their Demographic representation.  This of course is a red flag.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: bearprowler6 on June 10, 2020, 11:19:28 AM
Not specifically related to George Floyd but a very worthwhile read nonetheless:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/allan-levine-a-brief-history-of-canadian-bigotry
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 10, 2020, 11:19:47 AM
The Most Dangerous Neighborhood, the Most Inexperienced Cops

In Chicago and elsewhere, rookies are cannon fodder while vets police the safer neighborhoods.


https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/09/20/the-most-dangerous-neighborhood-the-most-inexperienced-cops
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 10, 2020, 11:32:45 AM
Might Floyd be alive today if all four of the cops were veterans?  So in a low-crime and predominantly white neighborhood, he might still be alive regardless of whether he is black or otherwise

Two issues then:
1). fewer veterans at the scene of Floyd's murder
2). socioeconomic differences between whites and blacks, and the lower socioeconomic class typically lives in more violent neighborhoods (with a greater mix of rookie cops)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: bearprowler6 on June 10, 2020, 11:39:06 AM
Might Floyd be alive today if all four of the cops were veterans?  So in a low-crime and predominantly white neighborhood, he might still be alive regardless of whether he is black or otherwise

Two issues then:
1). fewer veterans at the scene of Floyd's murder
2). socioeconomic differences between whites and blacks, and the lower socioeconomic class typically lives in more violent neighborhoods (with a greater mix of rookie cops)

https://whdh.com/news/minneapolis-police-chief-says-officers-lack-of-experience-is-no-excuse-in-george-floyd-killing/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 10, 2020, 11:45:52 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/06/10/ucla-suspends-professor-for-refusing-leniency-for-black-students/

LOL, total scammers and a spineless university(although what can you expect in that state?). Then they revert to classic liberal playbook "he s racist" for not giving special treatment. God forbid students are expected to take their finals...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 10, 2020, 11:54:02 AM
Might Floyd be alive today if all four of the cops were veterans?  So in a low-crime and predominantly white neighborhood, he might still be alive regardless of whether he is black or otherwise

Two issues then:
1). fewer veterans at the scene of Floyd's murder
2). socioeconomic differences between whites and blacks, and the lower socioeconomic class typically lives in more violent neighborhoods (with a greater mix of rookie cops)

https://whdh.com/news/minneapolis-police-chief-says-officers-lack-of-experience-is-no-excuse-in-george-floyd-killing/

Something is behind the large number of 'mistakes' made in the black neighborhoods and I question whether "keep sending the rookies in" is going to properly address it, if indeed that is what they are doing.

I was not offering it as a legal defense, as I said earlier, you can't make "how many days on the force" a legal standard for when it is or is not acceptable to stand by and watch a murder happen.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 10, 2020, 11:59:18 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/06/10/ucla-suspends-professor-for-refusing-leniency-for-black-students/

LOL, total scammers and a spineless university(although what can you expect in that state?). Then they revert to classic liberal playbook "he s racist" for not giving special treatment. God forbid students are expected to take their finals...

Yes but we students didn't complain when our statistics professor cancelled class more than once during the OJ Simpson trial when he didn't want to leave his home early enough to avoid the Santa Monica traffic.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 10, 2020, 12:13:18 PM
Well thats because the teacher student relationship doesnt hinge on the teacher obeying the instruction of the student. But in order to facilitate ones success in the class, it would be prudent for the student to obey the instruction of the teacher. This is a common dynamic that some seem to be missing in a lot of areas lately. Respecting authority and not being a spoiled brat or whiny pissant when you dont want to do what you are told or disagree with what they have to say...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 10, 2020, 12:26:20 PM
They are clearly taking it too far IMO, I agree.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 10, 2020, 06:33:59 PM
And that was tolerated?  The president of the union?



Lt. Bob Kroll, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, also didn’t respond to multiple requests for comment. Kroll, who is white, was once named in a racial discrimination lawsuit against the police department brought on by a group of black cops, including an officer who is now the current police chief. The 2007 suit alleged that Kroll openly wore a “white power” badge on his motorcycle jacket.



https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/05/28/before-george-floyd-s-death-minneapolis-police-failed-to-adopt-reforms-remove-bad-officers

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 10, 2020, 11:26:26 PM
The issue with respect to the George Floyd topic, is simple. Its culture. Its not racism, racism is just the lefts favorite rally the troops call. Acknowledging culture though, would solve the real problem. Something they have no interest in doing. There is an unhealthy "culture" with many police officers. This is no different than the disproportionate number of jerk offs on the high school football team. Are there racists on the football team? Sure. Sexist pigs? Yep. Homophobes? Yup. But its definitely not all of them, or likely even most and not really the root of the issue as much as the issue is outdated ideas of machoism. Being a "man", being "tough" and "us vs them". And guess what, the golf, baseball, and wrestling teams are typically WAYYY worse, they just dont get the spotlight. This is the crux of things here. There is definitely a culture problem with the cops. But these culture problems are also in many other places and its counter productive, unless you are a fundraising liberal, to just shine a light on "racism" and "durrrrr, bad cops!". "Fuck THA PO-lease" attitudes that are often prevalent, along with the "Get rich or die tryin" monikers many youngsters aspire to, doesnt help either. There are things both sides can do to solve the problem, but they'd rather finger point and rage on, because being lazy and taking the "racism" route requires less brainwork and effort.

For Mr. Floyd specifically, here's the rap sheet.

https://greatgameindia.com/george-floyd-criminal/


So......first, it goes without saying, that if you want to bring up the facts, you're branded a racist. Whatever, these people throw around their labels so much and so frivolously that they no longer have any significant meaning. But yea, saying Floyd was a standup citizen is a stretch. Did he deserve to die here? Absolutely not. But again, someone like this, arguably should have still been in jail; you want to talk about the system being screwed up? How TF does armed robbery, assault and possession of an unregistered firearm only get you 5 years? Seriously, you have to help yourself sometimes and this guy clearly took a liking to unlawfulness. So bigger picture, I am encouraged that positive changes will come about from this whole instance, it will just take time for it all to shake out. But effectively, this is taking a "lemon" and making lemonade. Trade a character like Floyd for some systematic reflection and positive social changes? Yup, every time.

Its sad, but you had a decorated police chief of 40 some odd years murdered in St Louis. The guy was checking on a friend's shop and was gunned down on Facebook Live by a thug protester who was looting the store. And while there is some news about this, there is a certain irony and pitifulness to the fact that we had a positive member of his community, a celebrated African American police officer killed by a criminal, and its basically just another footnote story no one cares about, whereas we had a criminal killed by a police officer, and people are turning him into a hero and a martyr...

I fully agree with you in terms of Floyd being no angel.  Certainly not the martyr that the protesters make him out to be.  But he was not resisting arrest.  There were three men on top of him and another ready to get on top of him if necessary.  He was saying he cannot breath.  Even if he did pass a $20 counterfeit note, was the force used to restrain him for the crime not excessive?  We don't have to discuss anything else...not politics, not race, not his criminal background, not the backgrounds of the police officers, nothing else.  Was the force used on Floyd excessive for the crime, and did police assess the situation accurately and do what would be expected of them?

If you can truthfully answer that question, then you would have to agree that Chauvin should be charged with manslaughter, the three other cops with something less than manslaughter and higher than aggravated assault at the very least.  I do think they are trying to make an example of the officers with murder 2 on Chauvin and excessive bail on them all and I don't necessarily agree with that.  They should be tried like they would in any other circumstance.  Cheers!

Yes of course. Chauvin fully deserves the book thrown at him. The other officers I think it depends. Again, if you know how law enforcement culture works, you'd know that 2 rookies are in no way, shape, or form thinking about undermining their superiors. In hind site, had they known what would have unfolded, I am sure they would have. But if what happens 99% of the time does, they treat him poorly and no one cares, well, you really wouldn't want to be either of those 2 rookies and have to go back to the station and deal with what comes your way from the veterans. Again, culture.

So I already think they carelessly opened a can of worms. They rushed to appease the public and now have a sticky situation. Some of the officers were clearly overcharged. Which now will undoubtedly produce some "not guilty" verdicts, which will then unleash the furies of the uneducated masses who clearly want blood. Its funny but "no justice, no peace" is what they say, but something tells me that all they want is "their" version of "justice" and won't settle for true justice which involves things like due process, the presumption of innocence, and a trial amongst ones peers.

Again, I don't disagree with you.  But you can probably understand the anger flowing after what people saw.  Right or wrong!  The President should have done everything he could to calm the situation, and then prevent the looting using the National Guard.  But he threw more gasoline on the fire instead!

Yes, there were others doing the same on the protesters side, but we are talking about the President...not the Al Sharpton's, Rosie O'Donnell's, etc.  We are talking about the President, once again, creating division instead of healing.  No other President in memory, has behaved the way this dipshit has when it comes to keeping his big mouth shut when not required.  Cheers!

Yes, the issue is simple. A man was murdered by a police officer. The other three police officers allowed it to happen. All 4 will now face the consequences for their actions. The judicial system will now do its job.

The other issue is also very simple. The US has serious race/racism issues - according to most blacks, which are 15% of the US population. A large percentage of the white population do not agree. And that explains why this issue continues to fester (since the Civil War).

Why is racism still such a huge issue in the US? Because the issues does not affect most whites or their children. Drew Brees and his initial comments are a great example (and he has many close black friends). If guys like that do not get it then it is not surprising that a large segment of the white population do not get it.

To get a better understanding, all you have to do is put yourself in their shoes for one day. Pretty simple and effective.

And it doesn’t help that the President has no capacity or desire to deal with this issue (to put it politely). Among other things, he is a role model for all Americans, especially children. This explains why change on this issue is so slow.

I agree with you...but I can see the other side too!  I have walked in the same shoes...at least when I was younger.  I remember my grandmother walking me home from kindergarten and kids from the nearby high school mocking her, the sari she was wearing, and telling us "Paki's" to "go back to India"!  Or the kids who would harass my uncle in high school.  I'm light-skinned, but one of my darker-skinned friends was constantly made fun of by other students.  I remember one time in high school, I was 13 I believe, and the kid sitting behind me started telling me how I "smelled of curry".  It used to be a weekly event for someone in my family or a close Indian friend to have something racist said to them or done to them.

But today, the experience for our family and friends is like "night" and "day" compared to the 70's and 80's.  Does racism still exist...for sure, and various minority groups are exposed to it regularly and unfairly.  But is the racism as rampant as it was back in the 70's and 80's.  No, I don't think it is...at least not if you compare our experiences today to 30-40 years ago.  I don't think anyone in my immediate family has faced any racist act in at least a decade now.  Half my cousins are inter-married and have mixed children.  I don't think any of them have been denied career opportunities because of race in the last 20+ years...I have never experienced that.

So, I can understand many who are less than sympathetic to Black Lives Matter, because one, they haven't experienced anything like that, or two, things are actually better for many minorities over the last 20, 30 years.  It doesn't mean racism doesn't exist still, but I'm not sure wholesale changes without understanding the consequences are also the answer...like defunding police services, or removing police from communities, schools, etc.  The rule of law will continue to exist, and who is going to enforce that if you understaff the police.  You will probably create more problems than solve them!  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 11, 2020, 08:05:23 AM
But West also cited Malcolm X in reminding Wallace that “you don’t stab folk in the back nine inches, pull it out three inches and say you’re making progress.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cornell-west-protests_n_5ed42944c5b65291179f0278

For those who ignore Fox News altogether, I will say that Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallce is (IMO) the best commercial news program.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 11, 2020, 09:34:04 AM
"For those who ignore Fox News altogether, I will say that Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallce is (IMO) the best commercial news program."

For nearly all of 2019 I made it a point to listen to FOX news exclusively for over 90 minutes a day during my commute to and from work. I did this because I wanted to ensure I had a more balanced viewpoint on Trump and the extreme right and get a better perspective on how the right was explaining some of the things Trump was doing.

I found that Chris Wallace was reasonably balanced in his views, however his direct criticisms of Trump were often somewhat restrained.

Shepard Smith became less and less restrained as Trump became more and more out of touch with reality. It got to the point where Smith obviously became fed up with towing the FOX line and in a surprise move, left FOX.

Is the writing on the wall for Wallace?

Many of the other FOX broadcasters are simply mouthpieces for Trump and sucked up all of his outrageous lies to the point where they have zero credibility and had definitely joined the Trump fan club / cult. 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 11, 2020, 11:23:17 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/06/11/video-shows-cops-call-man-dumb-ass-as-they-watch-him-drown/

Again, incredibly distasteful on the part of the officers, although, as the guy who drowned, why are you running, if as his family friend said, he's "innocent"?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 11, 2020, 11:44:50 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/06/11/video-shows-cops-call-man-dumb-ass-as-they-watch-him-drown/

Again, incredibly distasteful on the part of the officers, although, as the guy who drowned, why are you running, if as his family friend said, he's "innocent"?

I can understand the sentiment of not wanting to be held under by a drowning victim.  However, they did absolutely nothing.  Along a river there are typically trees, with branches, and even if they don't have saws they do have firearms and between the group of officers should have been able to free a limb from a tree and could have asked the drowning man to hold on in an attempt to bring him to shore.  It's too dark in the video, but it's a river bank in Georgia and trees are typical.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 11, 2020, 12:28:28 PM
Why does he come down on an NFL player for taking a knee, and then defend the legacy of traitors?  The history can be remembered in a museum.

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/trump-says-he-doesn-t-support-replacing-confederate-base-names-84831813625

How about Trump changing one of the names to Ft John McCain? (kidding, of course)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 11, 2020, 10:52:53 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/06/11/video-shows-cops-call-man-dumb-ass-as-they-watch-him-drown/

Again, incredibly distasteful on the part of the officers, although, as the guy who drowned, why are you running, if as his family friend said, he's "innocent"?

I don't think this is the same situation as the Floyd case.  I think the officer's should be suspended, terminated, or charged with a minor offence in this case.  In the Floyd case, the officer's are not risking their life, contrary to this case where they would have to go into the water, and were the ones controlling the whole situation including the amount of force used in the Floyd case.  Two very different situations.  Both show a significant disregard for human life, but different.  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 12, 2020, 07:16:55 AM
Two young black minds on the issue of Black Lives Matter vs White Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1toK3ODe9U

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 07:56:35 AM
Two young black minds on the issue of Black Lives Matter vs White Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1toK3ODe9U

Regardless of whether or not you personally believe it is founded in reality:
listening, allowing protests, implementing reforms that reduce police brutality for all...  that benefits all of society.

It's a win-win.

These guys in the video are pissed off that none of the recipients of the Black Lives Matter campaign dollars are Republicans -- they even dedicated a segment to this complaint.  Then at the end they put #ChineseVirus and include a rant that it's called ChineseVirus because it's from China.  These are Trump supporters who want dollars flowing for Trump too.  Mad Cow Disease wasn't called EuropeanDisease.  It is rather easy to suspect it's a dig at the Chinese especially coming from Trump.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 12, 2020, 08:23:58 AM
Two young black minds on the issue of Black Lives Matter vs White Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1toK3ODe9U

Regardless of whether or not you personally believe it is founded in reality:
listening, allowing protests, implementing reforms that reduce police brutality for all...  that benefits all of society.

It's a win-win.

These guys in the video are pissed off that none of the recipients of the Black Lives Matter campaign dollars are Republicans -- they even dedicated a segment to this complaint.  Then at the end they put #ChineseVirus and include a rant that it's called ChineseVirus because it's from China.  These are Trump supporters who want dollars flowing for Trump too.  Mad Cow Disease wasn't called EuropeanDisease.  It is rather easy to suspect it's a dig at the Chinese especially coming from Trump.


I'm crushed you don't see it from the viewpoint of two black men that choose to think independently for themselves.

Hopefully you don't think they are Uncle Toms.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 12, 2020, 08:33:13 AM
Two young black minds on the issue of Black Lives Matter vs White Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1toK3ODe9U

Whether it's a racism or not, an over-powered and under-endowed police force with zero accountability is no good for anyone - particularly minority groups with little recourse or power of their own.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 09:07:56 AM
When Trump doesn’t listen or express empathy for Black Lives Matter’s message, it only encourages more protest.

To be a law and order president one needs to show both sides that he is listening.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 09:15:15 AM
Two young black minds on the issue of Black Lives Matter vs White Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1toK3ODe9U

Regardless of whether or not you personally believe it is founded in reality:
listening, allowing protests, implementing reforms that reduce police brutality for all...  that benefits all of society.

It's a win-win.

These guys in the video are pissed off that none of the recipients of the Black Lives Matter campaign dollars are Republicans -- they even dedicated a segment to this complaint.  Then at the end they put #ChineseVirus and include a rant that it's called ChineseVirus because it's from China.  These are Trump supporters who want dollars flowing for Trump too.  Mad Cow Disease wasn't called EuropeanDisease.  It is rather easy to suspect it's a dig at the Chinese especially coming from Trump.


I'm crushed you don't see it from the viewpoint of two black men that choose to think independently for themselves.

Hopefully you don't think they are Uncle Toms.

Try not to take it personally when others disagree with you.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Viking on June 12, 2020, 09:51:58 AM
Disgusting behaviour. Not only towards Hunter but also towards Red Sox black employees. And this is 2020. Crazy that people cannot admit that racism is a big issue when stuff like this still happens on a regular basis. What is encouraging is this behaviour will become unacceptable over time. This is one reason why movements like the current one are necessary: to continue to stamp out unacceptable behaviours like this.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/11/red-sox-back-torii-hunter-claim-of-racist-taunts-at-fenway-park

... Last week, retired MLB outfielder Torii Hunter told ESPN, "I've been called the N-word in Boston 100 times. Little kids, with their parents right next to them. ... That's why I had a no-trade clause to Boston in every contract I had."

... what was shocking, at least to me, was that the Red Sox came out publicly to confirm what Hunter said. Not only that, the team went so far as to let everyone know there were seven reported instances of fans spewing slurs at games last season.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 12, 2020, 09:54:41 AM
When Trump doesn’t listen or express empathy for Black Lives Matter’s message, it only encourages more protest.

To be a law and order president one needs to show both sides that he is listening.

You seem oblivious to the fact that we haven't had a president who wasn't divisive, in ages. Its always intentional, some more polished than others; its a byproduct of what modern day politics has become. Trump is just, by far, the most egregious one yet.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Pauly on June 12, 2020, 11:16:16 AM
Disgusting behaviour. Not only towards Hunter but also towards Red Sox black employees. And this is 2020. Crazy that people cannot admit that racism is a big issue when stuff like this still happens on a regular basis. What is encouraging is this behaviour will become unacceptable over time. This is one reason why movements like the current one are necessary: to continue to stamp out unacceptable behaviours like this.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/11/red-sox-back-torii-hunter-claim-of-racist-taunts-at-fenway-park

... Last week, retired MLB outfielder Torii Hunter told ESPN, "I've been called the N-word in Boston 100 times. Little kids, with their parents right next to them. ... That's why I had a no-trade clause to Boston in every contract I had."

... what was shocking, at least to me, was that the Red Sox came out publicly to confirm what Hunter said. Not only that, the team went so far as to let everyone know there were seven reported instances of fans spewing slurs at games last season.

But according to Gregmal, Torii Hunter should just have altered his behavior so that people wouldn't call him that.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 11:22:56 AM
When Trump doesn’t listen or express empathy for Black Lives Matter’s message, it only encourages more protest.

To be a law and order president one needs to show both sides that he is listening.

You seem oblivious to the fact that we haven't had a president who wasn't divisive, in ages. Its always intentional, some more polished than others; its a byproduct of what modern day politics has become. Trump is just, by far, the most egregious one yet.

Distract.  The Generals say this is the first President who has not tried to unite the country in a crisis.  Instead pouring fuel into the fire.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 11:34:04 AM
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2018/03/20/comparing-trump-to-the-greatest-and-the-most-polarizing-presidents-in-u-s-history/

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 12, 2020, 11:42:18 AM
Disgusting behaviour. Not only towards Hunter but also towards Red Sox black employees. And this is 2020. Crazy that people cannot admit that racism is a big issue when stuff like this still happens on a regular basis. What is encouraging is this behaviour will become unacceptable over time. This is one reason why movements like the current one are necessary: to continue to stamp out unacceptable behaviours like this.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/11/red-sox-back-torii-hunter-claim-of-racist-taunts-at-fenway-park

... Last week, retired MLB outfielder Torii Hunter told ESPN, "I've been called the N-word in Boston 100 times. Little kids, with their parents right next to them. ... That's why I had a no-trade clause to Boston in every contract I had."

... what was shocking, at least to me, was that the Red Sox came out publicly to confirm what Hunter said. Not only that, the team went so far as to let everyone know there were seven reported instances of fans spewing slurs at games last season.

But according to Gregmal, Torii Hunter should just have altered his behavior so that people wouldn't call him that.

LOL isn't this exactly what he did? He refused to play there.....

I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself.

Professional sports leagues have long had a problem with this stuff. Its what happens when you get large gatherings of (generally, especially in the bleachers) hooligans and allow them to drink excessively. Its not just exclusive to America, look at some of the European soccer leagues. The only solution, is what we've been sporadically from clubs, hard line zero tolerance policy and lifetime bans for the aggressors. 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 12:02:01 PM
Disgusting behaviour. Not only towards Hunter but also towards Red Sox black employees. And this is 2020. Crazy that people cannot admit that racism is a big issue when stuff like this still happens on a regular basis. What is encouraging is this behaviour will become unacceptable over time. This is one reason why movements like the current one are necessary: to continue to stamp out unacceptable behaviours like this.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/11/red-sox-back-torii-hunter-claim-of-racist-taunts-at-fenway-park

... Last week, retired MLB outfielder Torii Hunter told ESPN, "I've been called the N-word in Boston 100 times. Little kids, with their parents right next to them. ... That's why I had a no-trade clause to Boston in every contract I had."

... what was shocking, at least to me, was that the Red Sox came out publicly to confirm what Hunter said. Not only that, the team went so far as to let everyone know there were seven reported instances of fans spewing slurs at games last season.

But according to Gregmal, Torii Hunter should just have altered his behavior so that people wouldn't call him that.

LOL isn't this exactly what he did? He refused to play there.....

I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself.
...

The beautiful thing is how ironic this post is.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 12, 2020, 12:07:22 PM
Disgusting behaviour. Not only towards Hunter but also towards Red Sox black employees. And this is 2020. Crazy that people cannot admit that racism is a big issue when stuff like this still happens on a regular basis. What is encouraging is this behaviour will become unacceptable over time. This is one reason why movements like the current one are necessary: to continue to stamp out unacceptable behaviours like this.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/11/red-sox-back-torii-hunter-claim-of-racist-taunts-at-fenway-park

... Last week, retired MLB outfielder Torii Hunter told ESPN, "I've been called the N-word in Boston 100 times. Little kids, with their parents right next to them. ... That's why I had a no-trade clause to Boston in every contract I had."

... what was shocking, at least to me, was that the Red Sox came out publicly to confirm what Hunter said. Not only that, the team went so far as to let everyone know there were seven reported instances of fans spewing slurs at games last season.

But according to Gregmal, Torii Hunter should just have altered his behavior so that people wouldn't call him that.

LOL isn't this exactly what he did? He refused to play there.....

I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself.
...

The beautiful thing is how ironic this post is.

The irony of what? Modifying a substantial portion of the content of my post trying to be snide? Yea, good point. Great irony there.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 12, 2020, 12:40:07 PM
Two young black minds on the issue of Black Lives Matter vs White Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1toK3ODe9U

Regardless of whether or not you personally believe it is founded in reality:
listening, allowing protests, implementing reforms that reduce police brutality for all...  that benefits all of society.

It's a win-win.

These guys in the video are pissed off that none of the recipients of the Black Lives Matter campaign dollars are Republicans -- they even dedicated a segment to this complaint.  Then at the end they put #ChineseVirus and include a rant that it's called ChineseVirus because it's from China.  These are Trump supporters who want dollars flowing for Trump too.  Mad Cow Disease wasn't called EuropeanDisease.  It is rather easy to suspect it's a dig at the Chinese especially coming from Trump.


I'm crushed you don't see it from the viewpoint of two black men that choose to think independently for themselves.

Hopefully you don't think they are Uncle Toms.

Try not to take it personally when others disagree with you.

Not at all - just find it strange that you have the ultimate motive for their comments: it's about Trump of course - and blacks can't
possibly be trusted if they support the president and law/order at the same time.

But then again, your armchair psychoanalysis comes to the rescue once again...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 12, 2020, 12:43:15 PM
Two young black minds on the issue of Black Lives Matter vs White Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1toK3ODe9U

Regardless of whether or not you personally believe it is founded in reality:
listening, allowing protests, implementing reforms that reduce police brutality for all...  that benefits all of society.

It's a win-win.

These guys in the video are pissed off that none of the recipients of the Black Lives Matter campaign dollars are Republicans -- they even dedicated a segment to this complaint.  Then at the end they put #ChineseVirus and include a rant that it's called ChineseVirus because it's from China.  These are Trump supporters who want dollars flowing for Trump too.  Mad Cow Disease wasn't called EuropeanDisease.  It is rather easy to suspect it's a dig at the Chinese especially coming from Trump.


I'm crushed you don't see it from the viewpoint of two black men that choose to think independently for themselves.

Hopefully you don't think they are Uncle Toms.

Try not to take it personally when others disagree with you.

Not at all - just find it strange that you have the ultimate motive for their comments: it's about Trump of course - and blacks can't
possibly be trusted if they support the president and law/order at the same time.

But then again, your armchair psychoanalysis comes to the rescue once again...

Keep in mind, if you vote for Trump, you arent really black...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 12, 2020, 12:45:44 PM
Two young black minds on the issue of Black Lives Matter vs White Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1toK3ODe9U

Whether it's a racism or not, an over-powered and under-endowed police force with zero accountability is no good for anyone - particularly minority groups with little recourse or power of their own.

I would agree with you completely here.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 12:57:18 PM
and blacks can't
possibly be trusted if they support the president and law/order at the same time.

What's odd to me is that you both make this statement and then lampoon it.

My post did not even mention their race.

Of course, putting up straw men is something I've seen before from you.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 01:09:02 PM
Disgusting behaviour. Not only towards Hunter but also towards Red Sox black employees. And this is 2020. Crazy that people cannot admit that racism is a big issue when stuff like this still happens on a regular basis. What is encouraging is this behaviour will become unacceptable over time. This is one reason why movements like the current one are necessary: to continue to stamp out unacceptable behaviours like this.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/11/red-sox-back-torii-hunter-claim-of-racist-taunts-at-fenway-park

... Last week, retired MLB outfielder Torii Hunter told ESPN, "I've been called the N-word in Boston 100 times. Little kids, with their parents right next to them. ... That's why I had a no-trade clause to Boston in every contract I had."

... what was shocking, at least to me, was that the Red Sox came out publicly to confirm what Hunter said. Not only that, the team went so far as to let everyone know there were seven reported instances of fans spewing slurs at games last season.

But according to Gregmal, Torii Hunter should just have altered his behavior so that people wouldn't call him that.

LOL isn't this exactly what he did? He refused to play there.....

I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself.
...

The beautiful thing is how ironic this post is.

The irony of what? Modifying a substantial portion of the content of my post trying to be snide? Yea, good point. Great irony there.

The guy had to leave his job altogether, and your point is that technically this is modifying his behavior?  Good one Greg, and looking desperate in the process.  He had to leave entirely because no behavior modifications could have been made for him to stay without continued harassment.

Then you write "
I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself."


Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 12, 2020, 01:17:05 PM
Disgusting behaviour. Not only towards Hunter but also towards Red Sox black employees. And this is 2020. Crazy that people cannot admit that racism is a big issue when stuff like this still happens on a regular basis. What is encouraging is this behaviour will become unacceptable over time. This is one reason why movements like the current one are necessary: to continue to stamp out unacceptable behaviours like this.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/11/red-sox-back-torii-hunter-claim-of-racist-taunts-at-fenway-park

... Last week, retired MLB outfielder Torii Hunter told ESPN, "I've been called the N-word in Boston 100 times. Little kids, with their parents right next to them. ... That's why I had a no-trade clause to Boston in every contract I had."

... what was shocking, at least to me, was that the Red Sox came out publicly to confirm what Hunter said. Not only that, the team went so far as to let everyone know there were seven reported instances of fans spewing slurs at games last season.

But according to Gregmal, Torii Hunter should just have altered his behavior so that people wouldn't call him that.

LOL isn't this exactly what he did? He refused to play there.....

I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself.
...

The beautiful thing is how ironic this post is.

The irony of what? Modifying a substantial portion of the content of my post trying to be snide? Yea, good point. Great irony there.

The guy had to leave his job altogether, and your point is that technically this is modifying his behavior?  Good one Greg, and looking desperate in the process.  He had to leave entirely because no behavior modifications could have made for him to stay without continued harassment.

Then you write "
I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself."


Torii Hunter had to leave his job? WTF are you even talking about lol. He had an All Star/borderline HOF career that spanned almost two decades and retired at nearly 40 with the team he came up with! Leave his job..my god, when all else fails, make things up I guess.

But dont feel bad, Hunter is a devout Catholic and a hardcore Republican, so he doesnt deserve your sympathy Im sure. And he shouldn't really be offended by that word because according to some, he isn't really black....
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 01:21:04 PM
Disgusting behaviour. Not only towards Hunter but also towards Red Sox black employees. And this is 2020. Crazy that people cannot admit that racism is a big issue when stuff like this still happens on a regular basis. What is encouraging is this behaviour will become unacceptable over time. This is one reason why movements like the current one are necessary: to continue to stamp out unacceptable behaviours like this.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/11/red-sox-back-torii-hunter-claim-of-racist-taunts-at-fenway-park

... Last week, retired MLB outfielder Torii Hunter told ESPN, "I've been called the N-word in Boston 100 times. Little kids, with their parents right next to them. ... That's why I had a no-trade clause to Boston in every contract I had."

... what was shocking, at least to me, was that the Red Sox came out publicly to confirm what Hunter said. Not only that, the team went so far as to let everyone know there were seven reported instances of fans spewing slurs at games last season.

But according to Gregmal, Torii Hunter should just have altered his behavior so that people wouldn't call him that.

LOL isn't this exactly what he did? He refused to play there.....

I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself.
...

The beautiful thing is how ironic this post is.

The irony of what? Modifying a substantial portion of the content of my post trying to be snide? Yea, good point. Great irony there.

The guy had to leave his job altogether, and your point is that technically this is modifying his behavior?  Good one Greg, and looking desperate in the process.  He had to leave entirely because no behavior modifications could have made for him to stay without continued harassment.

Then you write "
I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself."


Torii Hunter had to leave his job? WTF are you even talking about lol. He had an All Star/borderline HOF career that spanned almost two decades and retired at nearly 40 with the team he came up with! Leave his job..my god, when all else fails, make things up I guess.

But dont feel bad, Hunter is a devout Catholic and a hardcore Republican, so he doesnt deserve your sympathy Im sure. And he shouldn't really be offended by that word because according to some, he isn't really black....

I misstated it.  He could not take a job in Boston.  "That's why I had a no-trade clause to Boston in every contract I had."
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 01:28:58 PM
And he shouldn't really be offended by that word because according to some, he isn't really black....

"according to some"?  Why do you repeat such crap and post it here if you are not making the point yourself?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 12, 2020, 01:36:43 PM
Dude lots of professional players have clauses like this. There is a systematic "asshole fan" issue in sports as I mentioned earlier. Such as places like Boston, or Philly where they cheer opposing player injuries including Michael Irvin breaking his neck, shout obscenities(sometimes racist but sometimes stuff about your family and whatnot) or NYC where fans have been known to throw batteries at players.

Hunter was a player who was coveted by every team in the league and he had the opportunity to get max contract value where ever he wanted to play...so avoiding Boston had no effect on his career or earnings whatsoever.

Just like with the police issue, you dont seem to understand anything other than the headline, surface level stuff with these issues. Ask any Yankee fan, you really wouldn't be wise to go to Fenway for a Yankees Red Sox game in Yankee attire...you are guaranteed to be harassed and have a good chance of being assaulted. And vice versa if you wear Sox gear into Yankees stadium. Same with Dodgers Giants. Sports has its own massive basket of culture issues, again, with racism being "in there", but the things that need to be fixed have to start with owners and players collectively putting a foot down, and the truth is that most dont care. Look at whats going on right now for instance. As long as they all get paid, they put up with rabid, animal like behavior from fans. Hockey IMO is probably the most active in terms of being progressive. Lifetime bans for bad behavior, which IIRC included some dope throwing a banana on the ice in Toronto, are standard operating procedure now. Most other sports they usually just kick a couple people out for the game.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 12, 2020, 01:37:50 PM
And he shouldn't really be offended by that word because according to some, he isn't really black....

"according to some"?  Why do you repeat such crap and post it here if you are not making the point yourself?

According to the guy you're voting for this November. Sorry I wasn't more clear.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 12, 2020, 01:38:49 PM
and blacks can't
possibly be trusted if they support the president and law/order at the same time.

What's odd to me is that you both make this statement and then lampoon it.

My post did not even mention their race.

Of course, putting up straw men is something I've seen before from you.

I do love how you stand logic on it's head with your "motives" - totally dismissing the major message in their discussion because they
favor law and order, but just happen to support the President. But that is how you roll...

And gee, since they are comedians - let's hammer 'em on the ChinaVirus comment because you are SO offended!

Next time I'll post a Trigger Warning for you given their Cultural Insensitivity! You'll be safe then..
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 01:51:04 PM
totally dismissing... because they favor law and order

Once upon a time...

but just happen to support the President.

Yes, there is no value in considering contextual clues of their partisanship.  Uh, huh, blonde nods head.

And gee, since they are comedians - let's hammer 'em on the ChinaVirus comment

I'm sorry that you were bothered by criticism of a view you also hold.

because you are SO offended!

Judging by the emotional punctuation...

Next time I'll post a Trigger Warning for you given their Cultural Insensitivity! You'll be safe then..

If I could only be as calm as you.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 01:57:33 PM
And he shouldn't really be offended by that word because according to some, he isn't really black....

"according to some"?  Why do you repeat such crap and post it here if you are not making the point yourself?

According to the guy you're voting for this November. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

He apologized, retracted, and I believe you are already aware of that.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 12, 2020, 02:27:55 PM
[quote author=cubsfan link=topic=18356.msg418747#msg418747 date=1591971415
Regardless of whether or not you personally believe it is founded in reality:
listening, allowing protests, implementing reforms that reduce police brutality for all...  that benefits all of society

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGwAjPgo8Jc&t=2s

Trigger Warning just for you: Contains Lots of Comedy - but you may be offended - especially with mentions of ChineseVirus. Awful stuff.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 02:37:45 PM
[quote author=cubsfan link=topic=18356.msg418747#msg418747 date=1591971415
Regardless of whether or not you personally believe it is founded in reality:
listening, allowing protests, implementing reforms that reduce police brutality for all...  that benefits all of society

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGwAjPgo8Jc&t=2s

Trigger Warning just for you: Contains Lots of Comedy - but you may be offended - especially with mentions of ChineseVirus. Awful stuff.

Cubs you appear to be obsessed with me.  Will you allow me to post views that don't support your own beliefs without this harassment?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Pauly on June 12, 2020, 02:52:23 PM
LOL isn't this exactly what he did? He refused to play there.....

I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself.


Greg, earlier you implied that racism is mostly a self perpetuating myth. You then implied that black people would find themselves harassed less if they just changed the way they acted. Torii Hunter's experience seems to go against everything you've written. So ya I guess, 'gotcha! you're ignorant.'

Furthermore, you've been suspended from this forum for your noxious behavior (and really, what adult gets banned from a website?), and Parsad gave you a warning for an anti-semitic post. So look in the mirror if you want to see someone making a fool of themselves.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 12, 2020, 03:28:20 PM
[quote author=cubsfan link=topic=18356.msg418747#msg418747 date=1591971415
Regardless of whether or not you personally believe it is founded in reality:
listening, allowing protests, implementing reforms that reduce police brutality for all...  that benefits all of society

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGwAjPgo8Jc&t=2s

Trigger Warning just for you: Contains Lots of Comedy - but you may be offended - especially with mentions of ChineseVirus. Awful stuff.

Cubs you appear to be obsessed with me.  Will you allow me to post views that don't support your own beliefs without this harassment?

Get over it already Eric. Try not to be triggered. You don't need my approval to post.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 12, 2020, 03:45:56 PM
Prophetic comments from a black cop (2016) on Black Lives Matter movement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRen8nI8_aM

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 12, 2020, 04:21:34 PM
LOL isn't this exactly what he did? He refused to play there.....

I swear some of you guys are so desperate for your "gotcha" moments that often it gives the appearance you either didn't read the article you cited or that you lied/purposely misrepresented what was said just to get there; in the process, making a fool of yourself.


Greg, earlier you implied that racism is mostly a self perpetuating myth. You then implied that black people would find themselves harassed less if they just changed the way they acted. Torii Hunter's experience seems to go against everything you've written. So ya I guess, 'gotcha! you're ignorant.'

Furthermore, you've been suspended from this forum for your noxious behavior (and really, what adult gets banned from a website?), and Parsad gave you a warning for an anti-semitic post. So look in the mirror if you want to see someone making a fool of themselves.

No, I didn't "imply" that. I asked questions that nobody seems to be able to credibly answer. Racism is surely not a myth, but todays cries of racism are certainly closer to it the the racism of a couple of decades ago. Even lately, we want to cry about Floyd, but the real one that should have gotten everyone up in arms was the abhorrent modern day lynching of Ahmaud Arbery by a bunch of hillbillies in a pickup truck....it was maybe just less politically convenient then? IDK

Stating that there are things people can do to avoid bad situations is pretty obvious. I dont know what you find reason to take offense to, but again, given how you people act, its not surprising. Literally offended by everything.

Anti-semetic? You realize my family is Jewish? LOL good lord you libs and the labelling, its unreal. But good to know you were "offended" by my comment. You know, for all us Jews out there...

And yea, its funny but Ive even had a number of the people I argue with about politics reach out and tell me they thought the ban was absurd and petty, but hey I'm glad it made you feel good. Hopefully that good feeling was a nice break from all the crosses you must carry, you know, all day, being offended and outraged by absolutely everything.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 12, 2020, 06:08:43 PM
Get over it already Eric. Try not to be triggered. You don't need my approval to post.

Today when I have posted in a manner critical of your views, you took time out of your day to project your own logic into my posts, and further passing your narration off as my own.

Please debate the points that I make, and not the ones that you are imagining in your head.

examples:
and blacks can't possibly be trusted if they support the president and law/order at the same time.

and

because they favor law and order

The way everyone who disagrees with you is either a 'libtard' or 'deranged' speaks to how respectful of their views you are.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 13, 2020, 01:22:44 PM
No need to make stuff up Eric - I've never used the word "libtard" in my life or referred to anyone as "deranged".
Talk about imagination and passing off narration.

Like I say, I'll try harder not to "trigger you" given your sensitivities.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 14, 2020, 01:45:23 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/06/14/protesters-burn-atlanta-wendys-where-cops-fatally-shot-rayshard-brooks/

When I said "you have to help yourself", I didn't mean, help yourself to the officer's taser. This is unreal. Another instance where deadly force probably wasn't warranted, but holy fuck... use your brain. Perhaps there should be courses taught in grade school about "how to act when encountering police". I was told from a very early age, if you ever haver a run in with the police, be polite, respectful, and if they are out of line, keep your mouth shut and then handle it once you are safely back home.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 14, 2020, 08:00:23 AM
Fox News reportedly edited photos of Seattle's largely peaceful 'autonomous zone' to include an armed man in front of smashed storefronts

https://news.yahoo.com/fox-news-reportedly-edited-photos-161143532.html



Today Fox News ran this photoshopped image on their home page. They used digital editing to insert the man with the gun into the Free Cap Hill image.

I cannot stress enough what a severe violation of journalistic ethics this is.

https://twitter.com/CT_Bergstrom/status/1271647859062890496?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1271647859062890496&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.yahoo.com%2Ffox-news-reportedly-edited-photos-161143532.html


As The Seattle Times noted, Fox News also for a time on Friday ran a photograph of a burning building and car — taken in St. Paul, Minnesota also on May 30 — alongside a story about ongoing civil unrest in Seattle. That photo has also since been removed.

https://news.yahoo.com/fox-news-reportedly-edited-photos-161143532.html
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 15, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-chaz-black-female-street-preacher-informs-white-woman-about-why-blacks-should-vote-against-democrat-party

Nice video clip here from blacks in Seattle not falling for Joe Biden's bullshit. See 2nd video.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 15, 2020, 07:32:00 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-chaz-black-female-street-preacher-informs-white-woman-about-why-blacks-should-vote-against-democrat-party

Nice video clip here from blacks in Seattle not falling for Joe Biden's bullshit. See 2nd video.

this is too crazy to pass up:

These Democrats, and I’m sorry to say this, and I’m not trying to be racist, but they hate black people. These are the same people who fought to keep slavery in; these are the same people who built the KKK

I knew Joe was old, but I didn't realize he was that old.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 15, 2020, 07:39:28 PM
Nice clip here of "peaceful protestors" attacking police by clubbing them with skateboards:

https://www.toddstarnes.com/crime/hammer-time-miami-police-smack-down-skateboard-wielding-thugs/?utm_source=saraacarter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange_module

Didn't work out too well....
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 16, 2020, 05:21:53 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-chaz-black-female-street-preacher-informs-white-woman-about-why-blacks-should-vote-against-democrat-party

Nice video clip here from blacks in Seattle not falling for Joe Biden's bullshit. See 2nd video.

this is too crazy to pass up:

These Democrats, and I’m sorry to say this, and I’m not trying to be racist, but they hate black people. These are the same people who fought to keep slavery in; these are the same people who built the KKK

I knew Joe was old, but I didn't realize he was that old.

A little history, Eric:

https://assets.ctfassets.net/qnesrjodfi80/6bQdKPLDjyo2s0I8c60gA2/aec7a4feb53cdd469d9c59bc3dd5cc64/swain-the_inconvenient_truth_about_the_democratic_party-transcript.pdf





Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Pedro on June 16, 2020, 06:23:55 AM
https://www.toddstarnes.com/crime/hammer-time-miami-police-smack-down-skateboard-wielding-thugs/?utm_source=saraacarter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange_module

That policeman is awesome.  He hops out of the car and ready to go. Everyone backs down when you see a man that size geared up ready to lay down the law.

No guns. No Batons. No Tasers - just muscles, adrelaine & strong presence. I love it.

Degun the police & get more beauties like that in the force.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 16, 2020, 03:43:53 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-chaz-black-female-street-preacher-informs-white-woman-about-why-blacks-should-vote-against-democrat-party

Nice video clip here from blacks in Seattle not falling for Joe Biden's bullshit. See 2nd video.

this is too crazy to pass up:

These Democrats, and I’m sorry to say this, and I’m not trying to be racist, but they hate black people. These are the same people who fought to keep slavery in; these are the same people who built the KKK

I knew Joe was old, but I didn't realize he was that old.

A little history, Eric:

https://assets.ctfassets.net/qnesrjodfi80/6bQdKPLDjyo2s0I8c60gA2/aec7a4feb53cdd469d9c59bc3dd5cc64/swain-the_inconvenient_truth_about_the_democratic_party-transcript.pdf

You can't claim 'these' Democrats are racist if you're not paying reparations based on the argument that people today are not the ones who owned slaves, nor were they slaves themselves.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 16, 2020, 04:00:24 PM
Was doing a bit of reading earlier and it kind of dawned on me; Between Kavanaugh and the number of pro women's rights decisions he's voted in favor of, and now Gorusch ruling the way he did yesterday, arent there quite a few Democrats who need to apologize for how they treated these guys? Maybe even give Trump credit for picking excellent justices? Or at least admit that they were very, very wrong and the way they acted was completely unacceptable? But I won't hold my breathe.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 16, 2020, 04:02:01 PM
https://www.toddstarnes.com/crime/hammer-time-miami-police-smack-down-skateboard-wielding-thugs/?utm_source=saraacarter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange_module

That policeman is awesome.  He hops out of the car and ready to go. Everyone backs down when you see a man that size geared up ready to lay down the law.

No guns. No Batons. No Tasers - just muscles, adrelaine & strong presence. I love it.

Degun the police & get more beauties like that in the force.
This is still my favourite polite take down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4tMxYc9vfk
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 16, 2020, 04:22:44 PM
Was doing a bit of reading earlier and it kind of dawned on me; Between Kavanaugh and the number of pro women's rights decisions he's voted in favor of, and now Gorusch ruling the way he did yesterday, arent there quite a few Democrats who need to apologize for how they treated these guys? Maybe even give Trump credit for picking excellent justices? Or at least admit that they were very, very wrong and the way they acted was completely unacceptable? But I won't hold my breathe.

What’s your problem with investigating harassment and rape accusations prior to a lifetime appointment?

Also, I don’t see republicans apologizing for refusing to hear Pres Obama’s Supreme Court nominee during his last term. Personally I think that is more embarrassing as it is blatant partisanship.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 16, 2020, 04:23:27 PM
"This is still my favourite polite take down."

And that lunatic being arrested had just driven that van down a busy killing and maiming numerous people. Only in Canada?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 16, 2020, 04:30:46 PM
Was doing a bit of reading earlier and it kind of dawned on me; Between Kavanaugh and the number of pro women's rights decisions he's voted in favor of, and now Gorusch ruling the way he did yesterday, arent there quite a few Democrats who need to apologize for how they treated these guys? Maybe even give Trump credit for picking excellent justices? Or at least admit that they were very, very wrong and the way they acted was completely unacceptable? But I won't hold my breathe.

What’s your problem with investigating harassment and rape accusations prior to a lifetime appointment?

Also, I don’t see republicans apologizing for refusing to hear Pres Obama’s Supreme Court nominee during his last term. Personally I think that is more embarrassing as it is blatant partisanship.

I think it was a little more than an investigation into high school/ college behavioral "allegations". Guys name was totally dragged through the mud and the left was incredibly vocal about how these guys were (especially Kavanaugh) the end of women's rights despite having zero basis for making those claims.

I find these guys refreshing. I absolutely hate the idea of a partisan Supreme Court regardless of whether it's right/left stacked.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 16, 2020, 04:31:06 PM
LOL I actually wrote "polite". I really meant to write "police". Still works pretty well.  :)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 16, 2020, 04:48:57 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-chaz-black-female-street-preacher-informs-white-woman-about-why-blacks-should-vote-against-democrat-party

Nice video clip here from blacks in Seattle not falling for Joe Biden's bullshit. See 2nd video.

this is too crazy to pass up:

These Democrats, and I’m sorry to say this, and I’m not trying to be racist, but they hate black people. These are the same people who fought to keep slavery in; these are the same people who built the KKK

I knew Joe was old, but I didn't realize he was that old.

A little history, Eric:

https://assets.ctfassets.net/qnesrjodfi80/6bQdKPLDjyo2s0I8c60gA2/aec7a4feb53cdd469d9c59bc3dd5cc64/swain-the_inconvenient_truth_about_the_democratic_party-transcript.pdf

You can't claim 'these' Democrats are racist if you're not paying reparations based on the argument that people today are not the ones who owned slaves, nor were they slaves themselves.

The Democratic party has a history of systemic racism and should be defunded.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 16, 2020, 04:55:17 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-chaz-black-female-street-preacher-informs-white-woman-about-why-blacks-should-vote-against-democrat-party

Nice video clip here from blacks in Seattle not falling for Joe Biden's bullshit. See 2nd video.

this is too crazy to pass up:

These Democrats, and I’m sorry to say this, and I’m not trying to be racist, but they hate black people. These are the same people who fought to keep slavery in; these are the same people who built the KKK

I knew Joe was old, but I didn't realize he was that old.

A little history, Eric:

https://assets.ctfassets.net/qnesrjodfi80/6bQdKPLDjyo2s0I8c60gA2/aec7a4feb53cdd469d9c59bc3dd5cc64/swain-the_inconvenient_truth_about_the_democratic_party-transcript.pdf

You can't claim 'these' Democrats are racist if you're not paying reparations based on the argument that people today are not the ones who owned slaves, nor were they slaves themselves.

The Democratic party has a history of systemic racism and should be defunded.

Okay Libtard.

You do recognize that historically the Democrats are the conservative party, don't you liberal?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 16, 2020, 04:59:22 PM
Okay Libtard.

You do recognize that historically the Democrats are the Conservative party, don't you Liberal?
You're Paul's best friend. Always ready to feed the troll.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 04:03:50 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-inside-chaz-black-female-street-preacher-informs-white-woman-about-why-blacks-should-vote-against-democrat-party

Nice video clip here from blacks in Seattle not falling for Joe Biden's bullshit. See 2nd video.

this is too crazy to pass up:

These Democrats, and I’m sorry to say this, and I’m not trying to be racist, but they hate black people. These are the same people who fought to keep slavery in; these are the same people who built the KKK

I knew Joe was old, but I didn't realize he was that old.

A little history, Eric:

https://assets.ctfassets.net/qnesrjodfi80/6bQdKPLDjyo2s0I8c60gA2/aec7a4feb53cdd469d9c59bc3dd5cc64/swain-the_inconvenient_truth_about_the_democratic_party-transcript.pdf

You can't claim 'these' Democrats are racist if you're not paying reparations based on the argument that people today are not the ones who owned slaves, nor were they slaves themselves.

The Democratic party has a history of systemic racism and should be defunded.

Okay Libtard.

You do recognize that historically the Democrats are the Conservative party, don't you Liberal?

Eric, did you read the article I posted?

Want further proof of the Democrats' systemic racism? Look at Planned Parenthood. Care to guess how many more African American humans they kill over white humans?

Care what Sangar, the founder of the organization that became PP said of African Americans?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 04:14:24 AM
Okay Libtard.

You do recognize that historically the Democrats are the Conservative party, don't you Liberal?
You're Paul's best friend. Always ready to feed the troll.

I'm not trolling. 1) I believe the Democrats are selling 2) I genuinely like Eric. He's helped me become more financially secure and, without him, I would probably still be some agnostic liberal. What I'm trying to do for him is help him see his irrationality here. I think everyone should try to be intellectually honest about what they believe and why.

For instance, he sees to think there is some higher moral standard and that the government should force people to obey it. I would simply like to know what evidence he has for that (as an atheist)? He'll tell me his "empathy" is what leads him to believe what he does. Well, that might be enough for him but I don't blindly follow my emotions. That certainly isn't enough for people who lack empathy or the same level that he has to follow his values.

Have we learned anything about the game of investments in that regard?

If you're going to be an atheist, that is a rational position. If you're going to be an atheist and "only believe in things with evidence" it's quite silly to believe your empathy emotional instinct or that this some "higher" moral standard that we should aim for. If his empathy was really that "true" you would think he would be giving his wealth away to disadvantaged people. Basically if his worldview is correct, there is no real moral standard and it is irrational to act like there is one.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: meiroy on June 17, 2020, 05:15:39 AM

I'm not trolling. 1) I believe the Democrats are selling 2) I genuinely like Eric. He's helped me become more financially secure and, without him, I would probably still be some agnostic liberal.

LOL!

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 05:26:22 AM

I'm not trolling. 1) I believe the Democrats are selling 2) I genuinely like Eric. He's helped me become more financially secure and, without him, I would probably still be some agnostic liberal.

LOL!

Great insight! And thanks for adding some highly intelligent, well reasoned fuel to this topic.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 05:31:04 AM
Eric, did you read the article I posted?

yes, the propaganda that you posted, I read it.

Want further proof of the Democrats' systemic racism? Look at Planned Parenthood. Care to guess how many more African American humans they kill over white humans?

So, in effect, it follows that the Republican party's opposition to universal health care would be saving black fetus lives over white ones were it not for Planned Parenthood?  Gotcha.  Missing a "So True!" followup to that one.


Care what Sangar, the founder of the organization that became PP said of African Americans?

Paul, you'd masturbate less if you ate Corn Flakes.  Just sayin'. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/kelloggs-corn-flakes-masturbation/

I'm not trolling. 1) I believe the Democrats are selling

The 'Dixiecrats' switched over to the Republican party when the Democratic Party supported the Civil Rights movement.  The propaganda piece that you posted ends its history lesson at Lincoln for a reason.

A leopard can't change its spots, but it can switch parties.

If his empathy was really that "true" you would think he would be giving his wealth away to disadvantaged people

When it is convenient to do so, you choose to forget what I've said about conformance to society's rules.  I am not driven to give it all away by guilt or shame because I am working within the system that our democratic society has largely set up with the greater good in mind, and I support liberal/progressive reform to that system because I have empathy.  I have too much empathy to join your church and defund Planned Parenthood and further discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.  Your church is not teaching you that empathy, rather you lack any guilt/shame for your position on these topics because your views are accepted and taught by your social group, which is entirely consistent with what I've been saying about where morals come from.  Your social group is emphasizing the life of the fetus, and mine is emphasizing the life of the mother.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 17, 2020, 05:38:58 AM
Paul reminds me of those nice people who we see coming up the driveway with pamphlets in hand and when they knock on the door we all hide until they go away.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 17, 2020, 05:42:28 AM
I used to open the door naked. I found that that prevents return visits.  ;D
Title: OK we really need to change the subject
Post by: meiroy on June 17, 2020, 05:42:42 AM
What I'd like to know is, why would a bland diet decrease masturbation?

EDIT: don't google it.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 17, 2020, 05:51:53 AM
Well after some of the above, once again I have learned so much from following CoBF!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Jurgis on June 17, 2020, 06:36:04 AM
What I'd like to know is, why would a bland diet decrease masturbation?

EDIT: don't google it.

Apparently there is some connection with spicy foods and horniness. One of the reasons why various monks were not permitted to eat spicy foods, garlic, onions, leeks, etc.

This thread has improved so much once we started talking about naked proselytizers.  ::)
Title: OK we really need to change the subject name.
Post by: meiroy on June 17, 2020, 06:39:48 AM
What I'd like to know is, why would a bland diet decrease masturbation?

EDIT: don't google it.

Apparently there is some connection with spicy foods and horniness. One of the reasons why various monks were not permitted to eat spicy foods, garlic, onions, leeks, etc.

This thread has improved so much once we started talking about naked proselytizers.  ::)

https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/20-foods-for-your-sex-life-2017-9
THESE 20 SUPERFOODS ARE GUARANTEED TO MAKE YOU BETTER IN BED

1. Steak

aaaaaaaaaaand we're done.
Title: Re: OK we really need to change the subject name.
Post by: Jurgis on June 17, 2020, 06:43:32 AM
What I'd like to know is, why would a bland diet decrease masturbation?

EDIT: don't google it.

Apparently there is some connection with spicy foods and horniness. One of the reasons why various monks were not permitted to eat spicy foods, garlic, onions, leeks, etc.

This thread has improved so much once we started talking about naked proselytizers.  ::)

https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/20-foods-for-your-sex-life-2017-9
THESE 20 SUPERFOODS ARE GUARANTEED TO MAKE YOU BETTER IN BED

1. Steak

aaaaaaaaaaand we're done.

Poor vegetarians...  :'(
Title: Re: OK we really need to change the subject name.
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 06:44:57 AM
What I'd like to know is, why would a bland diet decrease masturbation?

EDIT: don't google it.

Apparently there is some connection with spicy foods and horniness. One of the reasons why various monks were not permitted to eat spicy foods, garlic, onions, leeks, etc.

This thread has improved so much once we started talking about naked proselytizers.  ::)

https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/20-foods-for-your-sex-life-2017-9
THESE 20 SUPERFOODS ARE GUARANTEED TO MAKE YOU BETTER IN BED

1. Steak

aaaaaaaaaaand we're done.

Brilliantly insightful! Surely you will win a Nobel Prize for your valuable contributions.

Seriously though, are you like 15?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 06:58:41 AM
Your social group is emphasizing the life of the fetus, and mine is emphasizing the life of the mother.

Ah yes, discrimination is okay for you but not for others. That's a very liberal thing to say. See how you use the term "fetus" to dehumanize? Should we always allow discrimination and death over the inconvenience of raising someone? For some reason, I think declining a cake is far less offensive than butchering an innocent human, but what do I know?

So Eric, do you agree that there is no real moral standard and that it's just an illusion?

The "propaganda" I posted ended at Lincoln?  ::)

Perhaps  you are more knowledgeable about history than me, but weren't the Jim Crow laws started after Lincoln?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 07:12:59 AM
Your social group is emphasizing the life of the fetus, and mine is emphasizing the life of the mother.

Ah yes, discrimination is okay for you but not for others. That's a very liberal thing to say.

That's an ironic comment because I'm not the one saying "right to life" while promoting policies that endanger the mother's life.

See how you use the term "fetus" to dehumanize?

Does the word 'adult' dehumanize, or are you picking and choosing?

Should we always allow discrimination and death over the inconvenience of raising someone?

Presenting a false choice is so very clever, but in your case I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because your propaganda leaflets don't mention back-alley abortions which is the entire reason why Planned Parenthood performs them.

So Eric, do you agree that there is no real moral standard and that it's just an illusion?

There are real moral standards for each social group and they are not illusions.  There are different social groups.  I've explained this before but you keep insisting that I say something different.  The real illusion is that there is a one true and righteous moral standard.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 17, 2020, 07:14:11 AM
More of the fine people:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/17/boogaloo-steven-carrillo/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 07:30:21 AM
Your social group is emphasizing the life of the fetus, and mine is emphasizing the life of the mother.

Ah yes, discrimination is okay for you but not for others. That's a very liberal thing to say.

You get real tough with straw men.

See how you use the term "fetus" to dehumanize?

Does the word 'adult' dehumanize, or are you picking and choosing?

Should we always allow discrimination and death over the inconvenience of raising someone?

Presenting a false choice is so very clever, but in your case I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because your propaganda leaflets don't mention back-alley abortions.

So Eric, do you agree that there is no real moral standard and that it's just an illusion?

There are real moral standards for each social group.  There are different social groups.  I've explained this before but you keep insisting that I say something different.

Eric, I want you to enlighten me on all of this. You opened my eyes to the irrationality of trusting a moral compass if atheism is accurate (just like trusting my taste buds on what to eat). So, I would like you to open my eyes on this too. I'm still not sure why you have such much trust in your empathy/moral compass though. Perhaps these emotions/chemical reactions are clouding your judgement to think critically on the issue?

You say it is discrimination (and wrong) to not bake a wedding cake for someone, right? Why is it okay then, for a woman to kill her "fetus?" How is the women not discriminating? If the baker should be tolerant and accepting, why shouldn't the mother?

Speaking of a fetus, that is simply a name for the stage of development for a human. Like you said, it's much like adult (or baby, toddler, teenager, etc). My question is, why should these people be discriminated against to the right to life? You say it's wrong to discriminate against gay people (which, by and large I agree with), then why is okay to discriminate against an even less empowered group?

To put it another way, would you rather have been aborted as a fetus or have a baker to decline your wedding cake? Why think one is okay and not the other?

I'll have to disagree with you on the "real" moral standards of various groups. Ultimately, they're just opinions (for instance, your group thinks it's okay to slaughter some folks but not okay to decline a cake for others).

Neither is more "real" or a version of "progress" anymore than Hitler's version of "progress."
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 07:52:50 AM
So, I would like you to open my eyes on this too. I'm still not sure why you have such much trust in your empathy/moral compass though. Perhaps these emotions/chemical reactions are clouding your judgement to think critically on the issue?

You say it is discrimination (and wrong) to not bake a wedding cake for someone, right?

The church's position on homosexuality doesn't convince me that I'm on the wrong path.

Why is it okay then, for a woman to kill her "fetus?"

Why is it okay to let her die in a back alley?  Since all the rest of your post is a continuation of that theme, I'll let that answer stand and add that you are oversimplifying the topic to suit your position on the issue.  I could advocate for illegal abortion, but in doing so I'd knowingly be supporting the back-alley abortion industry and killing more mothers. 

I speculate that the prostitution laws in this country are consistent with your moral views on abortion;  does that mean we don't have prostitution?  Could they be safer if it were legal?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 07:58:42 AM
So, I would like you to open my eyes on this too. I'm still not sure why you have such much trust in your empathy/moral compass though. Perhaps these emotions/chemical reactions are clouding your judgement to think critically on the issue?

You say it is discrimination (and wrong) to not bake a wedding cake for someone, right?

The church's position on homosexuality doesn't convince me that I'm on the wrong path.

Why is it okay then, for a woman to kill her "fetus?"

Why is it okay to let her die in a back alley?  Since all the rest of your post is a continuation of that theme, I'll let that answer stand and add that you are oversimplifying the answer.  I could make abortion illegal, but in doing so I'd be supporting the back-alley abortion industry and killing more mothers.

The church's stance on homosexuality is that it's a sin (I leave that up to God). The fact that science points that it's not mainly genetic (only about 25% of a person's sexuality is determined by genetics) makes me think that it's more of an issue with the heart. You also think think open marriage and abortions are okay so I question your moral compass.

Dying in a back alley? No one is forcing her to have an abortion. Perhaps she could actually love her child and take care of the baby instead of risking her life or killing the child?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 08:39:44 AM
I leave that up to God

My empathy doesn't allow me to do that.  Perhaps this is the real test 'He' has put forth for you and you are failing it.  Nobody can prove that it isn't.

No one is forcing her to have an abortion.

At last a break through has been made in this discussion, because Planned Parenthood is counted among the "No one".  PP is by your own admission not forcing the abortion, and it is reducing the deaths of women in the process.  That is why I support PP and legal abortion.

You also think think open marriage and abortions are okay so I question your moral compass.

I have not expressed an opinion on the morality of abortion.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 08:50:56 AM
I leave that up to God

My empathy doesn't allow me to do that.  Perhaps this is the real test 'He' has put forth for you and you are failing it.  You cannot prove that it isn't.

No one is forcing her to have an abortion.

At last a break through has been made in this discussion, because Planned Parenthood is counted among the "No one".  PP is by your own admission not forcing the abortion, and it is reducing the overall death toll in the process.  That is why I support PP and legal abortion.

You also think think open marriage and abortions are okay so I question your moral compass.

I have not expressed an opinion on the morality of abortion.

Your empathy is clouding your ability to follow the logic though. Perhaps when I thought about this I was younger so my brain had an easier time seeing the faulty logic.

PP is increasing the death toll by making it easier to have an abortion (far more humans are killed during abortion than in a voluntary back ally, I would assume). Indeed, the stigma of dying in a back alley might be enough to nudge people into keeping their child. However, if abortion were illegal and you chose (again your body, your choice) to murder an innocent person, and happen to die, well then that was your choice. She is choosing death over love.

I'm still trying to understand why it's okay to discriminate against a fetus but not okay to discriminate against a homosexual wanting a cake?

From what I've gathered (and correct me if I'm), you favor abortion, open marriages and prostitution. If so, why should I think that your view of homosexuality is okay if your other opinions are immoral (in my views)?

The science doesn't even support the idea of homosexual people's claim that it's genetics. Why trust your empathy over science or the church's stance, for that matter?

Think about this: you think slaughtering and innocent human is less wrong than denying a cake (please correct me if I'm wrong here)! What kind of twisted moral compass are you trusting here?

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 17, 2020, 09:16:43 AM
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/56caba_5a64404c50d84abdb410d8e534850740~mv2.png/v1/fit/w_408,h_281,al_c,q_80/file.png)

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 09:23:38 AM
I'm still trying to understand why it's okay to discriminate against a fetus but not okay to discriminate against a homosexual wanting a cake?

I have already explained why I take up my positions.  Hint:  women dying from back-alley abortions

From what I've gathered (and correct me if I'm), you favor abortion, open marriages and prostitution. If so, why should I think that your view of homosexuality is okay if your other opinions are immoral (in my views)?

You have not been following along.  My view is that you belong to a social group with morals that are different on some issues from those of the greater society, as do I.  So please don't say "why should I think that", because I'll be the last person to argue that your morals should be the same as mine given that I don't belong to your social group.

The science doesn't even support the idea of homosexual people's claim that it's genetics. Why trust your empathy over science or the church's stance, for that matter?

I am driven by the empathy that I feel for the way somebody else is being treated;  if homosexuality or open marriage makes people happy, why would I want them to have less of it?  That's my morality.  More people enjoying their lives isn't a bad thing IMO.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 09:36:03 AM
I'm still trying to understand why it's okay to discriminate against a fetus but not okay to discriminate against a homosexual wanting a cake?

I have already explained why I take up my positions.  Hint:  women dying from back-alley abortions

From what I've gathered (and correct me if I'm), you favor abortion, open marriages and prostitution. If so, why should I think that your view of homosexuality is okay if your other opinions are immoral (in my views)?

You have not been following along.  My view is that you belong to a social group with morals that are different on some issues from those of the greater society.  So please don't say "why should I think that", because I'll be the last person to argue that your morals should be the same as mine given that I don't belong to your social group.

The science doesn't even support the idea of homosexual people's claim that it's genetics. Why trust your empathy over science or the church's stance, for that matter?

I am driven by the empathy that I feel for the way somebody else is being treated;  if homosexuality or open marriage makes people happy, why would I want them to have less of it?  That's my morality.  More people enjoying their lives isn't a bad thing IMO.

What about the other humans that are dying in abortion clinics? They don't even have a choice. Why are you backing the women (who have a choice) instead of those that are being forced into something?

Eric, if you support things (and perhaps you don't) like legislating what constitutes discrimination, then you are, in fact, trying to force your values on others.

If racism makes other people happy, why not be open to that? If it makes someone happy to not make a cake for someone, do you also support that? Abortion sure makes people happy...well, not the people being aborted, but still!

Empathy for the way people are treated? Do you, honestly, think the gay couple is being treated worse by the baker than the aborted baby by their own mother?  :o

As a thought experiment, let's go with your logic "more happiness = better." We'll do 2 examples. Someone that is drugged up their entire life (from birth they were put on a machine that just released endorphins 24/7 for 80 years). The other person lead a normal life (fewer endorphins in total) for 80 years. Do you think the person tied to the machine had a better life?

I personally don't think hedonism (or that more happiness = better) creates a meaningful life but again, what do I know?

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 09:36:42 AM
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/56caba_5a64404c50d84abdb410d8e534850740~mv2.png/v1/fit/w_408,h_281,al_c,q_80/file.png)

Man, so deep, so rational...so brilliant!  ::)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 10:01:47 AM
Why are you backing the women (who have a choice) instead of those that are being forced into something?

I will further drive you crazy with my support for death with dignity.

Eric, if you support things (and perhaps you don't) like legislating what constitutes discrimination, then you are, in fact, trying to force your values on others.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 stopped bigots from antagonizing others (not completely).  Yes, I support that democratic system.  It is there because people like me forced our values on others.  Majority wins.

If racism makes other people happy, why not be open to that?

Because I have empathy for the victim.  Are you blackout drinking or something?  I'm sure we've covered this.

If it makes someone happy to not make a cake for someone, do you also support that?

No, but as long as everyone is given the same treatment I have no objection to it.

Empathy for the way people are treated? Do you, honestly, think the gay couple is being treated worse by the baker than the aborted baby by their own mother?

I think pulling a bakery's business license would put an end to the injustice, whereas a black market for unsafe abortions will emerge if banned.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 10:14:11 AM

I think pulling a bakery's business license would put an end to the injustice, whereas a black market for unsafe abortions will emerge if banned.

Okay so declining a wedding cake is an "injustice" but slaughter an innocent person is okay? Again, why have more empathy for a rather minor offense (no cake) instead of a major offense (murder)?

Do you really not see the lack of logic here?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 10:24:34 AM
Do you really not see the lack of logic here?

No, I do not see a lack of logic here.  Does that make it clearer?

You are relying on things that aren't in my words.  I am not going to risk losing women's lives for fetus' lives.  As best I can describe it, it's for how I feel stronger about women dying in back-alleys from coat-hanger abortions, as compared to a safe abortion procedure.


Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 10:45:05 AM
Do you really not see the lack of logic here?

No, I do not see a lack of logic here.  Does that make it clearer?

Have I ever said that I feel empathy for a fetus?  You are relying on things that aren't in my words.  I am not going to risk losing women's lives for fetus' lives.  As best I can describe it, it's for how I feel stronger about women dying in back-alleys from coat-hanger abortions, as compared to a safe abortion procedure.

Well, I guess I don't understand why you back forcing (arbitrary) values on people if you don't think there is an objective moral standard that exceeds social groups. Literally, if your thought process is correct, Hitler's "social" group has as much insight as yours. Do you agree? All of these values are arbitrary anyway. Yes, yes you just "know" your group is right....and so did they.

And, I don't understand why you have more empathy for the person murdering over the person being murdered. That doesn't make much sense. It's like feeling more empathy for the Third Reich when they're on trial instead of the Jews who got slaughtered.

You have a person making a choice to kill another when other options are available (the mother/Hitler) vs a group that holds less power (unborn/Jews) who are being killed...yet you are still favoring the first group. However, when it comes to cake baking...well, that is the real injustice!

I seriously don't see the logic here. I do see how emotions are clouding proper thinking though.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 11:44:11 AM
Well, I guess I don't understand why you back forcing (arbitrary) values on people if you don't think there is an objective moral standard that exceeds social groups.

I don't back forcing arbitrary values on people;  I back laws that protect.  Homosexuals are a protected class under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Go argue with Justice Gorsuch.

Hitler's "social" group has as much insight as yours. Do you agree? All of these values are arbitrary anyway.

Paul, I don't think empathy guided Hitler.

Yes, yes you just "know" your group is right....and so did they.

I trust that I'm doing more good than harm when I vote in a democratic society to protect homosexuals from bigots. 

And, I don't understand why you have more empathy for the person murdering over the person being murdered. That doesn't make much sense. It's like feeling more empathy for the Third Reich when they're on trial instead of the Jews who got slaughtered.

It's not clear to me why you keep arguing after I've given you my views, and after you have given me yours.

You have a person making a choice to kill another when other options are available (the mother/Hitler) vs a group that holds less power (unborn/Jews) who are being killed...yet you are still favoring the first group. However, when it comes to cake baking...well, that is the real injustice!

It is just not sinking in with you.  Did making drugs illegal make it go away?  I support legalizing all drugs in order to reduce violent crime, and I also support increasing drug education and funding for treatment, but after hearing that you'll probably say that I support children overdosing from drugs.

I support the services that Planned Parenthood provides.  Contraception and family planning cut down on abortions, duh.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 17, 2020, 11:52:39 AM
Can we please open up a tread (or maybe even a section) for Paul's morality, theism, gay cakes, views on abortion, and whatever other items he wants to troll about so he doesn't have to spray them all over the board on every single thread?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 12:04:38 PM


I don't back forcing arbitrary values on people;  I back laws that protect.  Homosexuals are a protected class under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Go argue with Justice Gorsuch.


Hopefully one day we'll progress to a standard where unborn humans are also a protected class. I hope you would back that too.

Oh, I think empathy drove a lot of what Hitler wanted. Granted the empathy was for his race or what have you but still it was there.

I know you think you are doing more "good." My point here is simple.

If God doesn't exist, there is truly no good or bad. Everything is just an opinion. It is okay to do sexually whatever you'd like but it is also okay to discriminate because there is no real higher standard. By saying that there is a higher standard, you are making a truth claim - which is impossible to exist if atheism is accurate.

Again, atheists say they require evidence to believe something. There is absolutely no evidence that a higher moral standard exists. Therefore the most rational position for an atheist is to be neutral on moral claims. Is a certain type of sexuality bad? Don't know! Is abortion bad? Same! Is discriminating bad? Not sure!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 12:05:52 PM


I don't back forcing arbitrary values on people;  I back laws that protect.  Homosexuals are a protected class under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Go argue with Justice Gorsuch.


Hopefully one day we'll progress to a standard where unborn humans are also a protected class. I hope you would back that too.

Oh, I think empathy drove a lot of what Hitler wanted. Granted the empathy was for his race or what have you but still it was there.

I know you think you are doing more "good." My point here is simple.

If God doesn't exist, there is truly no good or bad. Everything is just an opinion. It is okay to do sexually whatever you'd like but it is also okay to discriminate because there is no real higher standard. By saying that there is a higher standard, you are making a truth claim - which is impossible to exist if atheism is accurate.

Again, atheists say they require evidence to believe something. There is absolutely no evidence that a higher moral standard exists. Therefore the most rational position for an atheist is to be neutral on moral claims. Is a certain type of sexuality bad? Don't know! Is abortion bad? Same! Is discriminating bad? Not sure!

Can we please open up a tread (or maybe even a section) for Paul's morality, theism, gay cakes, views on abortion, and whatever other items he wants to troll about so he doesn't have to spray them all over the board on every single thread?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 17, 2020, 12:06:05 PM
Can we please open up a tread (or maybe even a section) for Paul's morality, theism, gay cakes, views on abortion, and whatever other items he wants to troll about so he doesn't have to spray them all over the board on every single thread?
I asked Paul a while ago to take his comments to the Religion section, but he told me that he didn't believe in the Religion section because he had never seen it and since he had never seen it, it must not exist.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 12:07:39 PM
Can we please open up a tread (or maybe even a section) for Paul's morality, theism, gay cakes, views on abortion, and whatever other items he wants to troll about so he doesn't have to spray them all over the board on every single thread?

cakes are asexual, rb! ;)

Again, I'm not trying to troll here. I have been wanting to talk to Eric about this stuff for years (but he got divorced and was off the board for a long time).

If people are going to claim "well, it's wrong to discriminate against homosexuals for wedding cakes". That's fine. I would like a well reasoned, rational argument and evidence to support that claim. If someone can not provide anymore evidence than "feelings" then well, I don't think it's good argument.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 12:08:40 PM
Can we please open up a tread (or maybe even a section) for Paul's morality, theism, gay cakes, views on abortion, and whatever other items he wants to troll about so he doesn't have to spray them all over the board on every single thread?
I asked Paul a while ago to take his comments to the Religion section, but he told me that he didn't believe in the Religion section because he had never seen it and since he had never seen it, it must not exist.


I said there wasn't an abortion and God section if my memory is correct! ;)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 12:13:08 PM
Can we please open up a tread (or maybe even a section) for Paul's morality, theism, gay cakes, views on abortion, and whatever other items he wants to troll about so he doesn't have to spray them all over the board on every single thread?

cakes are asexual, rb! ;)

Again, I'm not trying to troll here. I have been wanting to talk to Eric about this stuff for years (but he got divorced and was off the board for a long time).

If people are going to claim "well, it's wrong to discriminate against homosexuals for wedding cakes". That's fine. I would like a well reasoned, rational argument and evidence to support that claim. If someone can not provide anymore evidence than "feelings" then well, I don't think it's good argument.

So you are still arguing here.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 17, 2020, 12:14:03 PM
Can we please open up a tread (or maybe even a section) for Paul's morality, theism, gay cakes, views on abortion, and whatever other items he wants to troll about so he doesn't have to spray them all over the board on every single thread?

cakes are asexual, rb! ;)

Again, I'm not trying to troll here. I have been wanting to talk to Eric about this stuff for years (but he got divorced and was off the board for a long time).

If people are going to claim "well, it's wrong to discriminate against homosexuals for wedding cakes". That's fine. I would like a well reasoned, rational argument and evidence to support that claim. If someone can not provide anymore evidence than "feelings" then well, I don't think it's good argument.
So then open up a tread called "Homosexuals for Wedding Cakes" or "Paul Wants to Talk to Eric". Btw, there's also a PM function on this board that you can use to talk to another board member.

You bring this stuff into every thread. You also say the same shit. We know it, we've all heard it.

This thread is called "George Floyd", not "views on discrimination against homosexuals" or whatever other topics you're pinballing in between.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 12:21:22 PM
Can we please open up a tread (or maybe even a section) for Paul's morality, theism, gay cakes, views on abortion, and whatever other items he wants to troll about so he doesn't have to spray them all over the board on every single thread?

cakes are asexual, rb! ;)

Again, I'm not trying to troll here. I have been wanting to talk to Eric about this stuff for years (but he got divorced and was off the board for a long time).

If people are going to claim "well, it's wrong to discriminate against homosexuals for wedding cakes". That's fine. I would like a well reasoned, rational argument and evidence to support that claim. If someone can not provide anymore evidence than "feelings" then well, I don't think it's good argument.

So you are still arguing here.

Yes. You brought me into this thinking eric. I started thinking about "evolutionary instincts" and what that means and whether it's rational to trust them.

I wanted to see why you came to the conclusion (strong views on certain moral claims) even though if atheism is accurate, it's silly to have strong views on that stuff.

Like I said, if God exists, our conscience is tapping into a higher moral standard. If evolution is the cause of conscience, it's silly to thing that one group's set of values is any better (or worse!) than another's. That seems to be the most intellectually, rational way to look at the situation.

Sure, we think it's bad to terminate people for their sexuality. But the folks Yemen don't. So, yeah, it's okay if people think it's good and it's bad if they think it's bad. That's it!

It's basically like comparing one culture's manners vs another's.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 17, 2020, 12:27:10 PM
Can we please open up a tread (or maybe even a section) for Paul's morality, theism, gay cakes, views on abortion, and whatever other items he wants to troll about so he doesn't have to spray them all over the board on every single thread?

cakes are asexual, rb! ;)

Again, I'm not trying to troll here. I have been wanting to talk to Eric about this stuff for years (but he got divorced and was off the board for a long time).

If people are going to claim "well, it's wrong to discriminate against homosexuals for wedding cakes". That's fine. I would like a well reasoned, rational argument and evidence to support that claim. If someone can not provide anymore evidence than "feelings" then well, I don't think it's good argument.
So then open up a tread called "Homosexuals for Wedding Cakes" or "Paul Wants to Talk to Eric". Btw, there's also a PM function on this board that you can use to talk to another board member.

You bring this stuff into every thread. You also say the same shit. We know it, we've all heard it.

This thread is called "George Floyd", not "views on discrimination against homosexuals" or whatever other topics you're pinballing in between.

I don't disagree with you here. I'm partially (mostly? totally?) responsible for talking it off topic. So sorry about that!

I know some of the folks  here are atheists here but they make moral truth claims. I don't understand that reasoning.

I want to be a better thinker (and I value Eric's opinion about things) so I try to engage him. I think he's smarter than me but I don't think his position is very rational (in this case). I know when I personally tried to defend my case for morality when I was agnostic, I couldn't do it...so I had to change my worldview.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 17, 2020, 12:34:07 PM
The man recently killed in Atlanta, Rayshard Brooks, was shot in the back twice while he was running away from two police officers.

The officers had already patted down Brooks so they know he was unarmed. 

It looks like the officer's defense will be that he had no choice but to shoot Brooks after being fired upon with the taser (I believe some tasers can fire twice), because being immobilized would leave an officer at the mercy of Brooks.

However, there was a second officer who would not have been immobilized, so I don't find it to be a realistic scenario that Brooks was much of a threat.  Will the officer get off because he didn't think of that in the heat of the moment?



Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 18, 2020, 06:52:19 AM
After watching this - I am definitely denouncing my "white privilege":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMSTDsMXoD8


Trigger warning: ChineseVirus mentioned !  I apologize deeply!

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 18, 2020, 03:25:57 PM
It seems like a lot of the blame regarding the situation of most black people has been placed on white people. Terms such as white privlidge and white guilt are now common. When do you start to hold Africa Americans and their communities accountable? When do African American communities look at their situation and start to think some of their position maybe a result of their own doing?

Something like 70% of families do not have a father present. This is higher then compared to other races. Surely this has an impact on a young child psychologically for ever race. Those with kids know how difficult it is to raise a child with 2 parents let alone 1. Eventually that teen will not have supervision in a single parent household which can lead to disruptions in the childs life. Is this a result of white privlidege or sexual partner/father that left?

The precise figures have been thrown around and foregive me as I do not have them but when will blacks take accountability as a community/culture for the significant difference in crime rate and the high level of black on black crime?

Blacks tend to have less net worth then their white counterparts. Is this because of education, decisions made by an individual, or different community values? Do poor white people/black/hispanic people tend to make the same financial decisions?

Black women historically have had children before marriage at a higher rate. This leads to a lack of education among other stressors child bearing puts on a young person. Is this a result of black community values/lack of education or an external source?

It seems to me many of the issues that are harming black communities/people could be fixed by black people themselves. How much will it help to get large groups of white people to promise to not be racist when these are some issues harming the black community?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 03:39:30 PM
When do African American communities look at their situation and start to think some of their position maybe a result of their own doing?

Here is what was said when we had a black leader (and a white leader can't deliver such leadership without sounding patronizing):

President Obama's My Brother's Keeper initiative doesn't get much media attention, perhaps because it isn't controversial. But his effort to highlight the challenges faced by young minority men deserves more support and applause.

And on that score Mr. Obama had some pointed but honest remarks at a town hall in Washington, D.C. on Monday: "Sometimes African Americans, in communities where I've worked, there's been the notion of 'acting white'—which sometimes is overstated, but there's an element of truth to it, where, okay, if boys are reading too much, then, well, why are you doing that? Or why are you speaking so properly? And the notion that there's some authentic way of being black, that if you're going to be black you have to act a certain way and wear a certain kind of clothes, that has to go. Because there are a whole bunch of different ways for African American men to be authentic."

Mr. Obama added that young men should know their specific cultural heritage while also appreciating our common culture in which everyone must be equipped to participate and strive to succeed. This is a message that Mr. Obama can deliver with particular authority, and good for him for doing so.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/obama-on-acting-white-1406244966

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 18, 2020, 03:47:31 PM
It seems like a lot of the blame regarding the situation of most black people has been placed on white people. Terms such as white privlidge and white guilt are now common. When do you start to hold Africa Americans and their communities accountable?


Uh, yeah, now you are getting it - the short answer is "you don't" - in that case, they wouldn't be "victims".
It's ALWAYS easier to blame your problems on others, than it is to fix yourself. Always.

If you did, that would put the race baiters like Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, Al Sharpton, Bill DeBlasio, Maxine Waters, and Whoopi Goldberg - out of business.

Their arguments are always "oppressor/oppressed", "we are victims", blah, blah, blah...

These people make great livings and lots of money by fueling divisiveness, identity politics and victimization.

Fortunately, there are a growing number of vocal blacks that are not falling for this bullshit.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 18, 2020, 03:53:40 PM
Blacks tend to have less net worth then their white counterparts. Is this because of education

African Americans are paid less than whites at every education level


A recent EPI report, Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality, shows that this gap persists even after controlling for years of experience, region of the country, and whether one lives in an urban or rural area. In fact, since 1979, the gaps between black and white workers have grown the most among workers with a bachelor’s degree or higher—the most educated workers.


https://www.epi.org/publication/african-americans-are-paid-less-than-whites-at-every-education-level/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 18, 2020, 05:57:19 PM
Was doing a bit of reading earlier and it kind of dawned on me; Between Kavanaugh and the number of pro women's rights decisions he's voted in favor of, and now Gorusch ruling the way he did yesterday, arent there quite a few Democrats who need to apologize for how they treated these guys? Maybe even give Trump credit for picking excellent justices? Or at least admit that they were very, very wrong and the way they acted was completely unacceptable? But I won't hold my breathe.

It is hard to tell beforehand, but one thing about the lifelong tenure is that they are not beholden to anyone any more. So sometimes one doesn’t get what you think you get for the better or the worse. In this case, it seem that Kavanaugh acts in fact independent, which is the way it should be.

In my opinion, the judges should be picked in a bipartisan process and it used to be that way. I like the German system where a 2/3 majority is needed to appoint the equivalent of a supreme judge. This solves many problems, imo.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: 50centdollars on June 18, 2020, 06:26:24 PM
Blacks tend to have less net worth then their white counterparts. Is this because of education

African Americans are paid less than whites at every education level


A recent EPI report, Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality, shows that this gap persists even after controlling for years of experience, region of the country, and whether one lives in an urban or rural area. In fact, since 1979, the gaps between black and white workers have grown the most among workers with a bachelor’s degree or higher—the most educated workers.


https://www.epi.org/publication/african-americans-are-paid-less-than-whites-at-every-education-level/

But don't you need to break it down further to see if this is true. I mean comparing a white engineer to a black banker doesn't make a lot of sense. Both educated but in different industries. You should look at data that that compares a white engineer to a black engineer with relatively the same years of service. Then you will see if there is a difference in pay.

Stating white educated individuals get paid more the black educated individuals doesn't tell you much if you don't compare jobs/industries. You're not comparing apples to apples.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 19, 2020, 05:10:01 AM
When do African American communities look at their situation and start to think some of their position maybe a result of their own doing?

Here is what was said when we had a black leader (and a white leader can't deliver such leadership without sounding patronizing):

President Obama's My Brother's Keeper initiative doesn't get much media attention, perhaps because it isn't controversial. But his effort to highlight the challenges faced by young minority men deserves more support and applause.

And on that score Mr. Obama had some pointed but honest remarks at a town hall in Washington, D.C. on Monday: "Sometimes African Americans, in communities where I've worked, there's been the notion of 'acting white'—which sometimes is overstated, but there's an element of truth to it, where, okay, if boys are reading too much, then, well, why are you doing that? Or why are you speaking so properly? And the notion that there's some authentic way of being black, that if you're going to be black you have to act a certain way and wear a certain kind of clothes, that has to go. Because there are a whole bunch of different ways for African American men to be authentic."

Mr. Obama added that young men should know their specific cultural heritage while also appreciating our common culture in which everyone must be equipped to participate and strive to succeed. This is a message that Mr. Obama can deliver with particular authority, and good for him for doing so.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/obama-on-acting-white-1406244966

Maybe Obama was saying young blacks dont want to be cornball brothers.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/espn-commentator-rob-parker-calls-robert-griffin-iii-a-cornball-brother/

"Well, [that] he's black, he kind of does his thing, but he's not really down with the cause, he's not one of us," he said. "He's kind of black, but he's not really the guy you'd really want to hang out with, because he's off to do something else."

Pressed to further explain his point, Parker continued: "I want to find about him. I don't know because I keep hearing these things. We all know he has a white fiancee. Then there was all this talk about he's a Republican, which there's no information at all. I'm just trying to dig deeper into why he has an issue. Because we did find out with Tiger Woods, Tiger Woods was like, 'I've got black skin, but don't call me black.' So people wondered about Tiger Woods."



Since this was a slang that I wasn't aware of  here is some follow up on the term.

a. An African American male who chooses not to follow the stereotype. This includes, but is not limited to, being educated, well spoken, a role model, a leader, selfless, an upstanding member of the community and above all - humble.

b. life choices include marrying white women, being republican, and not being "down with the cause".

c. a rare breed of African American males who should be praised, not chastised by their own race.

d. a term where MLK would be rolling over his grave for

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Viking on June 19, 2020, 02:49:24 PM
The US has a race problem. Here is another example (in the long, long list). ‘Put yourself in another's shoes‘. Great advice for those who want to understand the need for change. Unbelievable that many still feel racism is not a big issue.

Bradley Beal Describes Officer Threatening Him During 2018 Traffic Stop
https://www.si.com/nba/2020/06/19/bradley-beal-describes-threatening-police-interaction-washington-dc

"Two years ago. I got pulled over on 495 and the officer asked me to step out of the vehicle. We're literally on the side of the highway. My wife, me and one of my friends," Beal said. "[The officer] comes up to me and says 'what if I f--- up your Monday and put you in a headline and arrest you right now?'"

"I didn't do anything, but because I was a Black athlete driving a nice vehicle, that's what he came up with. How am I supposed to respond to that? I would just be waking up on Monday morning with an ESPN headline 'Bradley Beal arrested because of interaction with police.'"

Beal noted that his experience is not atypical in the Black community.

"It doesn't just happen to me. It's everywhere," Beal said. "And we just have to stop being ignorant to the fact that it exists."
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 19, 2020, 03:42:32 PM
The US has a race problem. Here is another example (in the long, long list). ‘Put yourself in another's shoes‘. Great advice for those who want to understand the need for change. Unbelievable that many still feel racism is not a big issue.

Bradley Beal Describes Officer Threatening Him During 2018 Traffic Stop
https://www.si.com/nba/2020/06/19/bradley-beal-describes-threatening-police-interaction-washington-dc

"Two years ago. I got pulled over on 495 and the officer asked me to step out of the vehicle. We're literally on the side of the highway. My wife, me and one of my friends," Beal said. "[The officer] comes up to me and says 'what if I f--- up your Monday and put you in a headline and arrest you right now?'"

"I didn't do anything, but because I was a Black athlete driving a nice vehicle, that's what he came up with. How am I supposed to respond to that? I would just be waking up on Monday morning with an ESPN headline 'Bradley Beal arrested because of interaction with police.'"

Beal noted that his experience is not atypical in the Black community.

"It doesn't just happen to me. It's everywhere," Beal said. "And we just have to stop being ignorant to the fact that it exists."

Looks like Canadian police have a problem killing people of color too. From where I am sitting looks like a race problem. Did you guys even have slavery up there? Why do you guys have it out for people of color?

https://www.pyriscence.ca/home/2020/5/29/cdnpolice

Those are some pretty grizzly stories up north of the border. Looks like your police forces have it out for indigenous people too. Black people and Indigenous people? What kind of people go after Indigenous people? First you take their land then you kill them?

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2020/06/02/Canada-Race-Based-Violence/


https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform-custom/deadly-force


Should we send BLM up north?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 19, 2020, 04:10:38 PM
The US has a race problem. Here is another example (in the long, long list). ‘Put yourself in another's shoes‘. Great advice for those who want to understand the need for change. Unbelievable that many still feel racism is not a big issue.

Bradley Beal Describes Officer Threatening Him During 2018 Traffic Stop
https://www.si.com/nba/2020/06/19/bradley-beal-describes-threatening-police-interaction-washington-dc

"Two years ago. I got pulled over on 495 and the officer asked me to step out of the vehicle. We're literally on the side of the highway. My wife, me and one of my friends," Beal said. "[The officer] comes up to me and says 'what if I f--- up your Monday and put you in a headline and arrest you right now?'"

"I didn't do anything, but because I was a Black athlete driving a nice vehicle, that's what he came up with. How am I supposed to respond to that? I would just be waking up on Monday morning with an ESPN headline 'Bradley Beal arrested because of interaction with police.'"

Beal noted that his experience is not atypical in the Black community.

"It doesn't just happen to me. It's everywhere," Beal said. "And we just have to stop being ignorant to the fact that it exists."

Looks like Canadian police have a problem killing people of color too. From where I am sitting looks like a race problem. Did you guys even have slavery up there? Why do you guys have it out for people of color?

https://www.pyriscence.ca/home/2020/5/29/cdnpolice

Those are some pretty grizzly stories up north of the border. Looks like your police forces have it out for indigenous people too. Black people and Indigenous people? What kind of people go after Indigenous people? First you take their land then you kill them?

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2020/06/02/Canada-Race-Based-Violence/


https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform-custom/deadly-force


Should we send BLM up north?
Were you somehow under the impression that racism is only limited to the United States?

Also since you've asked, yes slavery existed in Canada. In a much smaller form than the US and Canadian courts ended it well before the US did. But we had it.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 19, 2020, 04:17:00 PM
The US has a race problem. Here is another example (in the long, long list). ‘Put yourself in another's shoes‘. Great advice for those who want to understand the need for change. Unbelievable that many still feel racism is not a big issue.

Bradley Beal Describes Officer Threatening Him During 2018 Traffic Stop
https://www.si.com/nba/2020/06/19/bradley-beal-describes-threatening-police-interaction-washington-dc

"Two years ago. I got pulled over on 495 and the officer asked me to step out of the vehicle. We're literally on the side of the highway. My wife, me and one of my friends," Beal said. "[The officer] comes up to me and says 'what if I f--- up your Monday and put you in a headline and arrest you right now?'"

"I didn't do anything, but because I was a Black athlete driving a nice vehicle, that's what he came up with. How am I supposed to respond to that? I would just be waking up on Monday morning with an ESPN headline 'Bradley Beal arrested because of interaction with police.'"

Beal noted that his experience is not atypical in the Black community.

"It doesn't just happen to me. It's everywhere," Beal said. "And we just have to stop being ignorant to the fact that it exists."

Looks like Canadian police have a problem killing people of color too. From where I am sitting looks like a race problem. Did you guys even have slavery up there? Why do you guys have it out for people of color?

https://www.pyriscence.ca/home/2020/5/29/cdnpolice

Those are some pretty grizzly stories up north of the border. Looks like your police forces have it out for indigenous people too. Black people and Indigenous people? What kind of people go after Indigenous people? First you take their land then you kill them?

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2020/06/02/Canada-Race-Based-Violence/


https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform-custom/deadly-force


Should we send BLM up north?
Were you somehow under the impression that racism is only limited to the United States?

Also since you've asked, yes slavery existed in Canada. In a much smaller form than the US and Canadian courts ended it well before the US did. But we had it.

I think Viking was. He said the US had a race problem. Maybe he already knew Canada had race issues and was just piling on the US stuff with the Beal story.

So what has the Canadian government/people done to counteract this? Same story as US? Makes you wonder how two different countries have identical issues with policing.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 19, 2020, 04:21:05 PM
Well the US has a race problem. Canada has one too. Viking didn't say anything about Canada in his post.

It just seems like you're trying to justify it. Well it's ok we have a race problem because Canada has one too.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 19, 2020, 04:27:08 PM
Well the US has a race problem. Canada has one too. Viking didn't say anything about Canada in his post.

It just seems like you're trying to justify it. Well it's ok we have a race problem because Canada has one too.

No, no justification. I'm just surprised since slavery existed in Canada and there are similar issues with police there is not a more outspoken presence in Canada. Or is there? Is BLM, white privilege etc a current issue in Canada?

Since there is a similar cause (racism) I would expect a similar effect (BLM, white privilege, white people kneeling to blacks, riots) but that does not seem to be the case.  Why is this a US thing at the moment if the movement is pure/genuine? Im not saying its not but are Canadians just more passive?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 19, 2020, 04:29:33 PM
The US has a race problem. Here is another example (in the long, long list). ‘Put yourself in another's shoes‘. Great advice for those who want to understand the need for change. Unbelievable that many still feel racism is not a big issue.

Bradley Beal Describes Officer Threatening Him During 2018 Traffic Stop
https://www.si.com/nba/2020/06/19/bradley-beal-describes-threatening-police-interaction-washington-dc

"Two years ago. I got pulled over on 495 and the officer asked me to step out of the vehicle. We're literally on the side of the highway. My wife, me and one of my friends," Beal said. "[The officer] comes up to me and says 'what if I f--- up your Monday and put you in a headline and arrest you right now?'"

"I didn't do anything, but because I was a Black athlete driving a nice vehicle, that's what he came up with. How am I supposed to respond to that? I would just be waking up on Monday morning with an ESPN headline 'Bradley Beal arrested because of interaction with police.'"

Beal noted that his experience is not atypical in the Black community.

"It doesn't just happen to me. It's everywhere," Beal said. "And we just have to stop being ignorant to the fact that it exists."

Looks like Canadian police have a problem killing people of color too. From where I am sitting looks like a race problem. Did you guys even have slavery up there? Why do you guys have it out for people of color?

https://www.pyriscence.ca/home/2020/5/29/cdnpolice

Those are some pretty grizzly stories up north of the border. Looks like your police forces have it out for indigenous people too. Black people and Indigenous people? What kind of people go after Indigenous people? First you take their land then you kill them?

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2020/06/02/Canada-Race-Based-Violence/


https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform-custom/deadly-force


Should we send BLM up north?
Were you somehow under the impression that racism is only limited to the United States?

Also since you've asked, yes slavery existed in Canada. In a much smaller form than the US and Canadian courts ended it well before the US did. But we had it.

I think Viking was. He said the US had a race problem. Maybe he already knew Canada had race issues and was just piling on the US stuff with the Beal story.

So what has the Canadian government/people done to counteract this? Same story as US? Makes you wonder how two different countries have identical issues with policing.

I tried reading the article, but I guess I had trouble finding where it was shown that what happened to Beal was because he was black. Stuff like this happens all the time, to a lot of people. Something similar happened to a white friend of mine. Cop pulls him over and just starts being an ass for no reason. Fuck I even had some jerk off pull me over once for zero reason. Gave me an attitude and when I asked why I was pulled over he ignored me. Then wrote me a cell phone ticket...Went to court, brought my brother with me, who was in the car for the entire thing and saw nothing happened, brought transcripts from my phone company confirming that there was no cell phone activity during that period of time.....AND the county prosecutor says best he can do is agree to a settlement where I pay and fine and that if I tried to argue the case he'd have the judge throw out the phone records as hearsay.... great system.

There's a couple problems I see; one is that many cops have major attitude issues. The other is that some people, whenever something happens to them, always seem to think its because of race. Thats not productive either.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 19, 2020, 04:30:33 PM
Well the US has a race problem. Canada has one too. Viking didn't say anything about Canada in his post.

It just seems like you're trying to justify it. Well it's ok we have a race problem because Canada has one too.

No, no justification. I'm just surprised since slavery existed in Canada and there are similar issues with police there is not a more outspoken presence in Canada. Or is there? Is BLM, white privilege etc a current issue in Canada?

Since there is a similar cause (racism) I would expect a similar effect (BLM, white privlidge, white people kneeling to blacks, riots) but that does not seem to be the case.
Let me clear things up for you then. It is a current issue, and it is to all those things you mentioned.

Not so much on the riots tho. We Canadians only riot when we loose important hockey games.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 19, 2020, 04:43:01 PM
Well the US has a race problem. Canada has one too. Viking didn't say anything about Canada in his post.

It just seems like you're trying to justify it. Well it's ok we have a race problem because Canada has one too.

No, no justification. I'm just surprised since slavery existed in Canada and there are similar issues with police there is not a more outspoken presence in Canada. Or is there? Is BLM, white privilege etc a current issue in Canada?

Since there is a similar cause (racism) I would expect a similar effect (BLM, white privlidge, white people kneeling to blacks, riots) but that does not seem to be the case.
Let me clear things up for you then. It is a current issue, and it is to all those things you mentioned.

Not so much on the riots tho. We Canadians only riot when we loose important hockey games.

Oh ok, makes sense then. Not much Canada coverage in the US today outside of some CBC but that's only good for when we play the Maple Leafs ;)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 19, 2020, 05:09:18 PM
Blacks tend to have less net worth then their white counterparts. Is this because of education

African Americans are paid less than whites at every education level


A recent EPI report, Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality, shows that this gap persists even after controlling for years of experience, region of the country, and whether one lives in an urban or rural area. In fact, since 1979, the gaps between black and white workers have grown the most among workers with a bachelor’s degree or higher—the most educated workers.


https://www.epi.org/publication/african-americans-are-paid-less-than-whites-at-every-education-level/

But don't you need to break it down further to see if this is true. I mean comparing a white engineer to a black banker doesn't make a lot of sense. Both educated but in different industries. You should look at data that that compares a white engineer to a black engineer with relatively the same years of service. Then you will see if there is a difference in pay.

Stating white educated individuals get paid more the black educated individuals doesn't tell you much if you don't compare jobs/industries. You're not comparing apples to apples.

Looking at the most popular majors by racial and ethnic group, one feature that is apparent is the great deal of similarity across groups. For example, business administration, psychology, nursing, and biology are four of the top five majors for all four of the groups shown. There are some differences, however. For example, economics, finance, and electrical engineering appear on the top-ten list only for Asian students, whereas social work appears on the list only for black students. Elementary education, history, and marketing are unique to the top-ten list for white students.

about 16 percent of white bachelor’s degree recipients had a major in a STEM subject, and over 30 percent of Asian students did. The comparable figures for black and Hispanic students are around 11 percent and 14 percent, respectively.

One set of fields with particularly low representation from white students consists of those included in the two-digit CIP major category “area, ethnic, cultural, gender, and group studies.” However, relatively few students from any racial or ethnic group major in these subjects. Less than 1 percent of black students major in these subjects, about 1 percent of Asian students do, and only slightly more than 1 percent of Hispanic students do.

An area in which there is an even larger disparity in favor of black and Hispanic students is the two-digit CIP major category for public administration and social service professions. Nearly 4 percent of black students and 2.5 percent of Hispanic students major in these subjects, whereas only around 1.5 percent of white students do and less than 1 percent of Asian students do.



https://www.clevelandfed.org/newsroom-and-events/publications/economic-trends/2015-economic-trends/et-20150331-racial-and-ethnic-differences-in-college-major-choice.aspx
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 19, 2020, 05:09:30 PM
https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/colorados-progressive-governor-and-legislature-just-ended-qualified-immunity-for-police-officers/

Quote
Colorado Governor Jared Polis (D), a progressive, signed an omnibus reform bill into law on Friday to end qualified immunity for police officers in the state.

“This is a long overdue moment of national reflection,” Polis said at the signing ceremony. “This is a meaningful, substantial reform bill.”

A summary of the sea change from the Colorado legislature notes:

The bill allows a person who has a constitutional right secured by the bill of rights of the Colorado constitution that is infringed upon by a peace officer to bring a civil action for the violation. A plaintiff who prevails in the lawsuit is entitled to reasonable attorney fees, and a defendant in an individual suit is entitled to reasonable attorney fees for defending any frivolous claims. Qualified immunity and a defendant’s good faith but erroneous belief in the lawfulness of his or her conduct are not defenses is not a defense to the civil action. The bill requires a political subdivision of the state to indemnify its employees for such a claim; except that if the peace officer’s employer determines the officer did not act upon a good faith and reasonable belief that the action was lawful, then the peace officer is personally liable for 5 percent of the judgment or $25,000, whichever is less, unless the judgment is uncollectible from the officer, then the officer’s employer satisfies the whole judgment .


A step in the right direction.

Hopefully other state legislators and governors step up to the plate as well.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 19, 2020, 05:29:03 PM
This article blames the pay gap on employee referrals, opportunity gap, and occupational segregation, and says that after adjusting for it black men earn 98% of what white men earn.


The uncontrolled pay gap is driven by many forces. In our analysis on employee referrals, we found that a third of workers received some type of employee referral for their current job, yet men of color are 26 percent less likely than white men to receive them. Referrals impact an employee’s relationship with their manager, their engagement at work and satisfaction with their employer. These factors can subsequently influence performance reviews, promotions and pay increases. Other variables help explain the uncontrolled pay gap, such as the opportunity gap and occupational segregation, which we discuss in more detail below.

When we hold all employment characteristics equal, black or African American men still see the largest pay gap. The controlled pay gap for black men is $0.98 for every dollar a white man with the same qualifications makes. To put that in perspective, the median salary of a white man in our sample is $72,900; the controlled median pay for black or African American men is thus $71,500. This suggests a $1,400 difference in pay that is likely attributable to race.


https://www.payscale.com/data/racial-wage-gap-for-men
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 20, 2020, 06:25:44 AM


The 2015 case was unusual because the police gunfire that occurred was never mentioned in the original incident report or in documents presented to the victim’s court-appointed attorney, the Journal-Constitution reported.

“I’ve never seen anything like it. It was the first time I’d ever come across a case where the incident report doesn’t even mention the fact that shots were fired.”

The judge said she immediately suspected a cover-up and alerted state investigators.

The attorney for the wounded man in the 2015 case claimed that three of the five shots fired in the incident were from Rolfe’s weapon, the newspaper reported.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/ex-atlanta-cop-in-brooks-case-waives-court-appearance-was-linked-to-2015-shooting-reports
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 20, 2020, 09:15:48 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/06/20/muhammad-alis-son-says-he-wouldve-hated-black-lives-matters/

Great interview. He aint black though. Neither was his father.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 20, 2020, 09:30:10 AM
Cheryl Dorsey, a retired Los Angeles Police sergeant, said that deadly force is a last resort. The officers at the Wendy’s should have set up a perimeter, requested backup and tried to contain his escape rather than shoot him.
“Should he slip the perimeter, you already know who he is. You have his driver’s license and vehicle,” she said. “There are so many other things that the officers could have done, but poor tactics always, always lead to a poor shooting.”

She said the shooting was more due to an intent to punish rather than out of fear.

“The officer was mad because he took his Taser,” she said.


https://keyt.com/news/national-world/2020/06/15/what-georgia-law-says-about-when-police-can-use-deadly-force/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 20, 2020, 10:41:17 AM
Two contrasting pieces of data illustrating why policing is so challenging to “get right”

https://www.reddit.com/r/ActualPublicFreakouts/comments/hccmhg/police_officer_shows_great_discipline/

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/hcgomc/cop_resigns_after_tackling_11yearold_at_school/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 20, 2020, 02:17:10 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/06/20/muhammad-alis-son-says-he-wouldve-hated-black-lives-matters/

Great interview. He aint black though. Neither was his father.

Nah, really???

The legendary boxer and activist stood up against racism throughout his life, but Muhammad Ali Jr. says his dad would have been sickened by how the protests have turned to violence and looting after the death of George Floyd.

Can't be true - just ask Martin Luther King's decendants.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 20, 2020, 04:37:58 PM

There's also the tendency for people to evaluate themselves as superior to others, Bell says.
She cites an experiment she helped conduct in which she asked college students to fill out an online questionnaire asking if they had ever engaged in racist behaviors, such as using the N-word.
Months later, the same participants were asked to review similar responses from randomly selected students. The catch was that they were actually reviewing their own answers, but they didn't know it.
"People evaluated themselves as less racist as the other person," Bell says, "even though the other person was them.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/20/us/racist-google-question-blake/index.html
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 20, 2020, 04:45:04 PM
This article blames the pay gap on employee referrals, opportunity gap, and occupational segregation, and says that after adjusting for it black men earn 98% of what white men earn.


The uncontrolled pay gap is driven by many forces. In our analysis on employee referrals, we found that a third of workers received some type of employee referral for their current job, yet men of color are 26 percent less likely than white men to receive them. Referrals impact an employee’s relationship with their manager, their engagement at work and satisfaction with their employer. These factors can subsequently influence performance reviews, promotions and pay increases. Other variables help explain the uncontrolled pay gap, such as the opportunity gap and occupational segregation, which we discuss in more detail below.

When we hold all employment characteristics equal, black or African American men still see the largest pay gap. The controlled pay gap for black men is $0.98 for every dollar a white man with the same qualifications makes. To put that in perspective, the median salary of a white man in our sample is $72,900; the controlled median pay for black or African American men is thus $71,500. This suggests a $1,400 difference in pay that is likely attributable to race.


https://www.payscale.com/data/racial-wage-gap-for-men

If the pay gap between blacks and whites I indeed only 2%, then they means there ie essentially no problem with pay, because 2 % is very small. There are likely many more substantial biases in pay out there (gender being one for sure). The bigger problem is likely that blacks don’t get into the higher paying jobs (engineering etc) to begin with.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 20, 2020, 05:17:48 PM
This article blames the pay gap on employee referrals, opportunity gap, and occupational segregation, and says that after adjusting for it black men earn 98% of what white men earn.


The uncontrolled pay gap is driven by many forces. In our analysis on employee referrals, we found that a third of workers received some type of employee referral for their current job, yet men of color are 26 percent less likely than white men to receive them. Referrals impact an employee’s relationship with their manager, their engagement at work and satisfaction with their employer. These factors can subsequently influence performance reviews, promotions and pay increases. Other variables help explain the uncontrolled pay gap, such as the opportunity gap and occupational segregation, which we discuss in more detail below.

When we hold all employment characteristics equal, black or African American men still see the largest pay gap. The controlled pay gap for black men is $0.98 for every dollar a white man with the same qualifications makes. To put that in perspective, the median salary of a white man in our sample is $72,900; the controlled median pay for black or African American men is thus $71,500. This suggests a $1,400 difference in pay that is likely attributable to race.


https://www.payscale.com/data/racial-wage-gap-for-men

If the pay gap between blacks and whites I indeed only 2%, then they means there ie essentially no problem with pay, because 2 % is very small. There are likely many more substantial biases in pay out there (gender being one for sure). The bigger problem is likely that blacks don’t get into the higher paying jobs (engineering etc) to begin with.

2% is the controlled pay gap.  The uncontrolled pay gap was larger.  One of the factors they cited responsible for the uncontrolled pay gap was the "opportunity gap":


BEYOND THE RACIAL WAGE GAP: THE OPPORTUNITY GAP
The prevalence of hiring discrimination in the workforce and the large uncontrolled pay gaps seen by men of color are concerning. While the uncontrolled pay gap may not hold all compensable factors constant, when taken together with other measures it highlights the social barriers that prevent economic equality for marginalized groups. One such measure is the opportunity gap, or the extent to which men of color climb the corporate ladder at the same rate as white men.

One way to measure the opportunity gap is to look at the percentage of each racial/ethnic group in the following job level categories.

Individual Contributors (ICs), i.e. they do not manage people
Managers or Supervisors
Directors, i.e. managers of managers
Executives, i.e. those who are at least a vice president.
A higher percentage of individual contributor roles indicates that a group has a harder time climbing the corporate ladder to attain jobs with higher pay and more influence.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 21, 2020, 05:58:20 PM
How are there so many black people in prison for minor drug offenses?

https://v.redd.it/7s5rr40oca651
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 22, 2020, 08:30:54 AM
I would assume most on this board are professionals or have worked in a professional environment. Has anyone in this thread observed or aware of racism in their workplace in regards to job, promotion, pay?

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 22, 2020, 08:55:05 AM
I would assume most on this board are professionals or have worked in a professional environment. Has anyone in this thread observed or aware of racism in their workplace in regards to job, promotion, pay?
Oh YEA! But I work in finance, not the most by the book field.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 22, 2020, 09:25:32 AM
I would assume most on this board are professionals or have worked in a professional environment. Has anyone in this thread observed or aware of racism in their workplace in regards to job, promotion, pay?

Observed: no

But I am not in the position to observe such things, so I can't really say for certain.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 22, 2020, 10:17:47 AM
I would assume most on this board are professionals or have worked in a professional environment. Has anyone in this thread observed or aware of racism in their workplace in regards to job, promotion, pay?

I got told to my face by my now former boss that if a woman would have applied for my position they would have hired her even if I was more qualified. This was for an engineering role in a professional setting.

^
This is the kind of stuff that promotes racism and sexism.....From this experience, I can absolutely see how individuals who are jaded or down on their luck can become bigoted, sexist and racist to an extent. That gets passed to their children and peers and the cycle begins all over.....Personally I laughed it off...it didn't really surprise me. I also work with a few women who are exceptional engineers! 

Ah, the fruits of affirmative action. A system designed to counteract racism and sexism turns out to be a primary driving force  :P
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Viking on June 22, 2020, 10:27:51 AM
Just another regular day in the life of a black man. Clearly blacks are being way too sensitive when stuff like this happens. Clearly it was meant as a joke. Or probably some kids having some fun. This sort of thing happens to everybody. No race issues here. (Sarcasm just to be clear :-)

The NASCAR garage where a noose was found had surveillance cameras, officials say.
- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/seattle-shooting-roosevelt-statue-nascar-noose.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The garage at an Alabama racetrack where someone placed a noose inside the stall of the lone black driver in NASCAR’s top racing series was fitted with surveillance cameras, officials said Monday, potentially offering crucial clues in an inquiry that has drawn in the federal authorities.

The episode on Sunday, in the garage stall of Darrell “Bubba” Wallace Jr. at the Talladega Superspeedway, came less than two weeks after NASCAR, at Mr. Wallace’s urging, banned the Confederate battle flag from its races and properties, and as the motor sports empire opened a new effort to distance itself from its history of racism.

In a statement on Monday, Jay E. Town, the United States attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, said that federal officials were “reviewing the situation surrounding the noose that was found in Bubba Wallace’s garage to determine whether there are violations of federal law.”

“Regardless of whether federal charges can be brought, this type of action has no place in our society,” Mr. Town said.

The Justice Department announced its review, which is operating in parallel to an investigation by NASCAR, hours before Mr. Wallace was scheduled to drive at Talladega, where Sunday’s NASCAR Cup Series race was postponed because of bad weather.

“This will not break me,” Mr. Wallace said in a statement on Sunday night, after NASCAR announced that a noose had been found. “I will not give in, nor will I back down. I will continue to proudly stand for what I believe in.”
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 22, 2020, 07:51:54 PM
Here is something that I learned about history today that I would not know about were it not for the protestors taking down George Washington's statue.  Apparently university courses teach this history in African American Studies class, but the rest of us got the "wooden teeth" history lesson.

The only existing complete set of Washington's dentures are owned by the Mount Vernon Ladies' Association, who own and operate George Washington's estate in Fairfax County, Virginia. That set is made of human teeth from the enslaved and poor, animal teeth, and ivory


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington%27s_teeth

It occurred to me that the only history I learned from this statue came from taking it down.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: mcliu on June 22, 2020, 09:31:00 PM
Is Jimmy Kimmel racist?

https://www.newsweek.com/soon-emmy-host-jimmy-kimmel-under-fire-blackface-comedy-sketches-1512676
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 23, 2020, 12:39:45 PM
https://twitter.com/mchooyah/status/1275506660799373314?s=21
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 23, 2020, 04:27:24 PM
Just another regular day in the life of a black man. Clearly blacks are being way too sensitive when stuff like this happens. Clearly it was meant as a joke. Or probably some kids having some fun. This sort of thing happens to everybody. No race issues here. (Sarcasm just to be clear :-)

The NASCAR garage where a noose was found had surveillance cameras, officials say.
- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/seattle-shooting-roosevelt-statue-nascar-noose.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The garage at an Alabama racetrack where someone placed a noose inside the stall of the lone black driver in NASCAR’s top racing series was fitted with surveillance cameras, officials said Monday, potentially offering crucial clues in an inquiry that has drawn in the federal authorities.

The episode on Sunday, in the garage stall of Darrell “Bubba” Wallace Jr. at the Talladega Superspeedway, came less than two weeks after NASCAR, at Mr. Wallace’s urging, banned the Confederate battle flag from its races and properties, and as the motor sports empire opened a new effort to distance itself from its history of racism.

In a statement on Monday, Jay E. Town, the United States attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, said that federal officials were “reviewing the situation surrounding the noose that was found in Bubba Wallace’s garage to determine whether there are violations of federal law.”

“Regardless of whether federal charges can be brought, this type of action has no place in our society,” Mr. Town said.

The Justice Department announced its review, which is operating in parallel to an investigation by NASCAR, hours before Mr. Wallace was scheduled to drive at Talladega, where Sunday’s NASCAR Cup Series race was postponed because of bad weather.

“This will not break me,” Mr. Wallace said in a statement on Sunday night, after NASCAR announced that a noose had been found. “I will not give in, nor will I back down. I will continue to proudly stand for what I believe in.”

"OOPS" https://twitter.com/NASCAR/status/1275542920972689409/photo/1

https://twitter.com/terryan11210907/status/1275477093019770880

Actually you were right Viking. No race issues here! Good to see you didn't jump to conclusions with your post.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: 50centdollars on June 23, 2020, 04:55:18 PM
Just another regular day in the life of a black man. Clearly blacks are being way too sensitive when stuff like this happens. Clearly it was meant as a joke. Or probably some kids having some fun. This sort of thing happens to everybody. No race issues here. (Sarcasm just to be clear :-)

The NASCAR garage where a noose was found had surveillance cameras, officials say.
- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/seattle-shooting-roosevelt-statue-nascar-noose.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The garage at an Alabama racetrack where someone placed a noose inside the stall of the lone black driver in NASCAR’s top racing series was fitted with surveillance cameras, officials said Monday, potentially offering crucial clues in an inquiry that has drawn in the federal authorities.

The episode on Sunday, in the garage stall of Darrell “Bubba” Wallace Jr. at the Talladega Superspeedway, came less than two weeks after NASCAR, at Mr. Wallace’s urging, banned the Confederate battle flag from its races and properties, and as the motor sports empire opened a new effort to distance itself from its history of racism.

In a statement on Monday, Jay E. Town, the United States attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, said that federal officials were “reviewing the situation surrounding the noose that was found in Bubba Wallace’s garage to determine whether there are violations of federal law.”

“Regardless of whether federal charges can be brought, this type of action has no place in our society,” Mr. Town said.

The Justice Department announced its review, which is operating in parallel to an investigation by NASCAR, hours before Mr. Wallace was scheduled to drive at Talladega, where Sunday’s NASCAR Cup Series race was postponed because of bad weather.

“This will not break me,” Mr. Wallace said in a statement on Sunday night, after NASCAR announced that a noose had been found. “I will not give in, nor will I back down. I will continue to proudly stand for what I believe in.”

"OOPS" https://twitter.com/NASCAR/status/1275542920972689409/photo/1

https://twitter.com/terryan11210907/status/1275477093019770880

Actually you were right Viking. No race issues here! Good to see you didn't jump to conclusions with your post.

LOL yup people jump to conclusions and start screaming like kids when they have zero facts. Sums up our society right now.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 23, 2020, 06:18:12 PM
Yup, no race issues in Alabama. By the way did you see the parade of dozens of cars and trucks proudly flying the Confederate flag as they drove past the track? How about the huge Confederate flag towed over the track by an airplane?

While some here seem to think this is all very funny I doubt it is all that hummerous to those with a black heritage. 
 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 23, 2020, 08:52:50 PM
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-tweets-multiple-videos-of-random-black-men-attacking-people

What a guy.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: mcliu on June 23, 2020, 09:25:33 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1275568020853870592

“Just because they’re black doesn’t mean they’re not a part of the problem.”
BLM..? Thank goodness for all the many white saviours.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 23, 2020, 11:22:06 PM
Just another regular day in the life of a black man. Clearly blacks are being way too sensitive when stuff like this happens. Clearly it was meant as a joke. Or probably some kids having some fun. This sort of thing happens to everybody. No race issues here. (Sarcasm just to be clear :-)

The NASCAR garage where a noose was found had surveillance cameras, officials say.
- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/seattle-shooting-roosevelt-statue-nascar-noose.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The garage at an Alabama racetrack where someone placed a noose inside the stall of the lone black driver in NASCAR’s top racing series was fitted with surveillance cameras, officials said Monday, potentially offering crucial clues in an inquiry that has drawn in the federal authorities.

The episode on Sunday, in the garage stall of Darrell “Bubba” Wallace Jr. at the Talladega Superspeedway, came less than two weeks after NASCAR, at Mr. Wallace’s urging, banned the Confederate battle flag from its races and properties, and as the motor sports empire opened a new effort to distance itself from its history of racism.

In a statement on Monday, Jay E. Town, the United States attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, said that federal officials were “reviewing the situation surrounding the noose that was found in Bubba Wallace’s garage to determine whether there are violations of federal law.”

“Regardless of whether federal charges can be brought, this type of action has no place in our society,” Mr. Town said.

The Justice Department announced its review, which is operating in parallel to an investigation by NASCAR, hours before Mr. Wallace was scheduled to drive at Talladega, where Sunday’s NASCAR Cup Series race was postponed because of bad weather.

“This will not break me,” Mr. Wallace said in a statement on Sunday night, after NASCAR announced that a noose had been found. “I will not give in, nor will I back down. I will continue to proudly stand for what I believe in.”

"OOPS" https://twitter.com/NASCAR/status/1275542920972689409/photo/1

https://twitter.com/terryan11210907/status/1275477093019770880

Actually you were right Viking. No race issues here! Good to see you didn't jump to conclusions with your post.

LOL yup people jump to conclusions and start screaming like kids when they have zero facts. Sums up our society right now.

A lot of rush to judgment from folks in today's day and age. Can I get me some Julie Smollet was the victim of a modern day lynching quotes!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 23, 2020, 11:31:31 PM
The other perspective is this: How sad it is when folks cling so tightly to anecdotal evidence in a sad attempt to bury their heads in the sand (at the best) or justify their own subhuman prejudices (at the worst).
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 24, 2020, 05:12:32 AM
Just another regular day in the life of a black man. Clearly blacks are being way too sensitive when stuff like this happens. Clearly it was meant as a joke. Or probably some kids having some fun. This sort of thing happens to everybody. No race issues here. (Sarcasm just to be clear :-)

The NASCAR garage where a noose was found had surveillance cameras, officials say.
- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/seattle-shooting-roosevelt-statue-nascar-noose.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The garage at an Alabama racetrack where someone placed a noose inside the stall of the lone black driver in NASCAR’s top racing series was fitted with surveillance cameras, officials said Monday, potentially offering crucial clues in an inquiry that has drawn in the federal authorities.

The episode on Sunday, in the garage stall of Darrell “Bubba” Wallace Jr. at the Talladega Superspeedway, came less than two weeks after NASCAR, at Mr. Wallace’s urging, banned the Confederate battle flag from its races and properties, and as the motor sports empire opened a new effort to distance itself from its history of racism.

In a statement on Monday, Jay E. Town, the United States attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, said that federal officials were “reviewing the situation surrounding the noose that was found in Bubba Wallace’s garage to determine whether there are violations of federal law.”

“Regardless of whether federal charges can be brought, this type of action has no place in our society,” Mr. Town said.

The Justice Department announced its review, which is operating in parallel to an investigation by NASCAR, hours before Mr. Wallace was scheduled to drive at Talladega, where Sunday’s NASCAR Cup Series race was postponed because of bad weather.

“This will not break me,” Mr. Wallace said in a statement on Sunday night, after NASCAR announced that a noose had been found. “I will not give in, nor will I back down. I will continue to proudly stand for what I believe in.”

"OOPS" https://twitter.com/NASCAR/status/1275542920972689409/photo/1

https://twitter.com/terryan11210907/status/1275477093019770880

Actually you were right Viking. No race issues here! Good to see you didn't jump to conclusions with your post.

LOL yup people jump to conclusions and start screaming like kids when they have zero facts. Sums up our society right now.

These are the kind of people just itching to start a race war - keep this stuff coming.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: jamesmadison on June 24, 2020, 08:36:10 AM
Just another regular day in the life of a black man. Clearly blacks are being way too sensitive when stuff like this happens. Clearly it was meant as a joke. Or probably some kids having some fun. This sort of thing happens to everybody. No race issues here. (Sarcasm just to be clear :-)

The NASCAR garage where a noose was found had surveillance cameras, officials say.
- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/seattle-shooting-roosevelt-statue-nascar-noose.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The garage at an Alabama racetrack where someone placed a noose inside the stall of the lone black driver in NASCAR’s top racing series was fitted with surveillance cameras, officials said Monday, potentially offering crucial clues in an inquiry that has drawn in the federal authorities.

The episode on Sunday, in the garage stall of Darrell “Bubba” Wallace Jr. at the Talladega Superspeedway, came less than two weeks after NASCAR, at Mr. Wallace’s urging, banned the Confederate battle flag from its races and properties, and as the motor sports empire opened a new effort to distance itself from its history of racism.

In a statement on Monday, Jay E. Town, the United States attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, said that federal officials were “reviewing the situation surrounding the noose that was found in Bubba Wallace’s garage to determine whether there are violations of federal law.”

“Regardless of whether federal charges can be brought, this type of action has no place in our society,” Mr. Town said.

The Justice Department announced its review, which is operating in parallel to an investigation by NASCAR, hours before Mr. Wallace was scheduled to drive at Talladega, where Sunday’s NASCAR Cup Series race was postponed because of bad weather.

“This will not break me,” Mr. Wallace said in a statement on Sunday night, after NASCAR announced that a noose had been found. “I will not give in, nor will I back down. I will continue to proudly stand for what I believe in.”

"OOPS" https://twitter.com/NASCAR/status/1275542920972689409/photo/1

https://twitter.com/terryan11210907/status/1275477093019770880

Actually you were right Viking. No race issues here! Good to see you didn't jump to conclusions with your post.

LOL yup people jump to conclusions and start screaming like kids when they have zero facts. Sums up our society right now.

These are the kind of people just itching to start a race war - keep this stuff coming.

It's like a Rorschach test.  Some people see nooses no matter what.

https://reason.com/2020/06/19/oakland-nooses-turn-out-to-be-exercise-swings-mayor-wants-to-investigate-them-as-a-hate-crime-anyway/


Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Read the Footnotes on June 24, 2020, 09:21:18 AM
It's like a Rorschach test.  Some people see nooses no matter what.

https://reason.com/2020/06/19/oakland-nooses-turn-out-to-be-exercise-swings-mayor-wants-to-investigate-them-as-a-hate-crime-anyway/
I thought it was likely that this would turn out to be nothing. I guess we can acknowledge that the FBI could be part of a racist conspiracy, but that sounds about as crazy as when Trump claims that he's not incompetent, but that it's a vast conspiracy that the whole world is in on to make him look bad.

Anyone who would have intentionally placed a noose should have assumed it would create a national news story, so the question is what are the odds that someone who had access to the garage was nutty enough to do something that would create a national news story? That led me to questioning whether we had another Jussie Smollet incident. I'm glad that appears to not be the case.

On the other hand, if you train people enough to not trust each other and to expect the worst of each other, they will get good at it.

I am sure that if you held enough lakeshark trainings for lifeguards, eventually all freshwater lifeguards would be spending time on guard for the deadly lakeshark.

When you're playing divide and conquer politics, it's really great if you can find a bogeyman that can't be seen and progress can't easily be measured. If you can't even prove that the shark exists at all that can also be great.

It's sad that Bubba Wallace and whoever else was involved in reporting the incident apparently cannot see that the knot, may have been an ambiguous knot and they saw in it what they have been trained to expect, even after a contradicting conclusion by the FBI.

Linking this to the field of Behavioral Economics, this can also be explained by Availability Bias. The recent events in the USA have been traumatizing to many people, therefore increasing the availability of a narrative of racism. When confronted with an knot of ambiguous meaning, racism as an explanation was very available to people. Trump running around intentionally triggering people is not going to make that better.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 24, 2020, 12:30:51 PM
Trump running around intentionally triggering people is not going to make that better.

Sure - blame it on Trump - more nonsense.

Of the last 5 or 6 "noose incidents" reported by the national media - they have all been hoaxes.

Like you could not see this coming a mile away.

But blame it on Trump. Al Sharpton would be real proud of you.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 24, 2020, 12:46:41 PM
It's like a Rorschach test.  Some people see nooses no matter what.

https://reason.com/2020/06/19/oakland-nooses-turn-out-to-be-exercise-swings-mayor-wants-to-investigate-them-as-a-hate-crime-anyway/
I thought it was likely that this would turn out to be nothing. I guess we can acknowledge that the FBI could be part of a racist conspiracy, but that sounds about as crazy as when Trump claims that he's not incompetent, but that it's a vast conspiracy that the whole world is in on to make him look bad.

Anyone who would have intentionally placed a noose should have assumed it would create a national news story, so the question is what are the odds that someone who had access to the garage was nutty enough to do something that would create a national news story? That led me to questioning whether we had another Jussie Smollet incident. I'm glad that appears to not be the case.

On the other hand, if you train people enough to not trust each other and to expect the worst of each other, they will get good at it.

I am sure that if you held enough lakeshark trainings for lifeguards, eventually all freshwater lifeguards would be spending time on guard for the deadly lakeshark.

When you're playing divide and conquer politics, it's really great if you can find a bogeyman that can't be seen and progress can't easily be measured. If you can't even prove that the shark exists at all that can also be great.

It's sad that Bubba Wallace and whoever else was involved in reporting the incident apparently cannot see that the knot, may have been an ambiguous knot and they saw in it what they have been trained to expect, even after a contradicting conclusion by the FBI.

Linking this to the field of Behavioral Economics, this can also be explained by Availability Bias. The recent events in the USA have been traumatizing to many people, therefore increasing the availability of a narrative of racism. When confronted with an knot of ambiguous meaning, racism as an explanation was very available to people. Trump running around intentionally triggering people is not going to make that better.

Wow. It aaaaaalmost seems like you kind of get it right here.

Society, both through human nature, and the training of politicians+media, have developed a need for simple answers to complex problems. Not surprisingly, they often dont get anywhere when it comes to solving them. But they always have someone to blame.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 24, 2020, 04:32:22 PM
Race-baiter Al Sharpton, desperate to keep the "noose incident", going..

https://www.dailywire.com/news/al-sharpton-contends-fbi-probe-into-nascar-noose-wrong-wants-further-investigation-why-was-bubba-assigned-that-garage

As noted by The Daily Wire on Tuesday, the FBI concluded that Mr. Wallace, who is black, was not the victim of a hate crime, noting that the garage pulley in question has been used in the garage since last fall, long before Wallace was assigned the stall.

Losers like Al Sharpton have made a great career out of the oppression narrative - so you can't pass up opportunities like this
to keep the MSNBC airways busy.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 24, 2020, 04:48:45 PM
Oh yea, totally. The media is the real culprit though. Every chance they get, they purposely marginalize people to labels that fit their narratives hoping to enrage their audience.

"Wallace, who is black"...."Smollett, who is black and gay"..."Floyd, who is black; Chauvin who is white"... They have the narrative, search for the story, fill in the buzz words...and boom, we have another "crisis". The folks who want "equality", are often the biggest perpetrators of bigotry and defining people based on the colors of their skin.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 24, 2020, 04:57:22 PM
I guess one takeaway from this is that it may be good to withhold judgment on just about anything before jumping to conclusions.

That’s true for just about anything. Social media has given everyone a way to light a short fuse and that’s part of the problem.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 24, 2020, 05:37:51 PM
I spent the day in Madison, WI yesterday with a college friend of mine. We walked the UW campus and beautiful Capitol grounds and park.
We sat for 30 minutes admiring a magnificent statue of Colonel Hans Christian Heg, the 1850's Wisconsin abolishnist, who died
in the Civil War. 

That was 1:00 PM on Tuesday. By midnight, Black Lives Matter had destroyed the 100 year old statue, decapitated it and dragged in
into Lake Winona. The destruction of Madison (a beautiful liberal city) continues by BLM. Hundreds of buildings have been defaced/vandalized
and looted.

Black Lives Matter is a truly despicable organization.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/23/black-lives-matter-destroys-statue-of-immigrant-who-died-fighting-slavery/

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 24, 2020, 06:28:57 PM
Don’t worry cubs, the “All” in all lives matter includes statues too.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 24, 2020, 06:32:59 PM
The Final Jeopardy category is "Lives That Matter":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7VaXlMvAvk
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 24, 2020, 09:06:20 PM
Yup, no race issues in Alabama. By the way did you see the parade of dozens of cars and trucks proudly flying the Confederate flag as they drove past the track? How about the huge Confederate flag towed over the track by an airplane?

While some here seem to think this is all very funny I doubt it is all that hummerous to those with a black heritage.

The flag they fly isn't the flag of the Confederacy.
It isn't a flag of surrender either (they should be proud of giving up the fight against slavery and rejoining this great nation).
It's the Battle Flag of the Confederacy that they fly.

There is a bit of symbolism there in the choice of flag they are celebrating.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/confederate-flag-always-racist-119481
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 05:05:27 AM
Blacks weigh in on hate crimes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwsRc31TFc

Just for you LC - All Lives Matter, including statues



Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 25, 2020, 07:34:58 AM
Blacks weigh in on hate crimes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwsRc31TFc

Just for you LC - All Lives Matter, including statues

Those two guys are the epitome of Dave Chapelle's Clayton Bigsby character...the blind, black white supremacist leader, who doesn't know he's black, and who hates his wife because she loves black people!  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 07:48:23 AM
Blacks weigh in on hate crimes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwsRc31TFc

Just for you LC - All Lives Matter, including statues

Those two guys are the epitome of Dave Chapelle's Clayton Bigsby character...the blind, black white supremacist leader, who doesn't know he's black, and who hates his wife because she loves black people!  Cheers!

Yeah, they don't exactly follow the racist "Black Lives Matter" narrative now do they?

They actually think for themselves and are not afraid of the ridicule their principles bring them from the crowd.

Cheers back at ya'
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 25, 2020, 08:00:38 AM
Blacks weigh in on hate crimes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwsRc31TFc

Just for you LC - All Lives Matter, including statues

Those two guys are the epitome of Dave Chapelle's Clayton Bigsby character...the blind, black white supremacist leader, who doesn't know he's black, and who hates his wife because she loves black people!  Cheers!

Yeah, they don't exactly follow the racist "Black Lives Matter" narrative now do they?

They actually think for themselves and are not afraid of the ridicule their principles bring them from the crowd.

Cheers back at ya'

You know, during the Second World War, there were Germans who weren't Nazis, nor did they believe or support the Nazi agenda.  There were also Jews who turned over other Jews to the Nazis.  History showed exactly which narrative was morally bankrupt...history will prove that again, and you'll be trying to explain your beliefs to your children and grandchildren.  Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 08:10:18 AM
Blacks weigh in on hate crimes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwsRc31TFc

Just for you LC - All Lives Matter, including statues

Those two guys are the epitome of Dave Chapelle's Clayton Bigsby character...the blind, black white supremacist leader, who doesn't know he's black, and who hates his wife because she loves black people!  Cheers!

Yeah, they don't exactly follow the racist "Black Lives Matter" narrative now do they?

They actually think for themselves and are not afraid of the ridicule their principles bring them from the crowd.

Cheers back at ya'

You know, during the Second World War, there were Germans who weren't Nazis, nor did they believe or support the Nazi agenda.  There were also Jews who turned over other Jews to the Nazis.  History showed exactly which narrative was morally bankrupt...history will prove that again, and you'll be trying to explain your beliefs to your children and grandchildren.  Cheers!

Sure Parsad - thanks for the lesson on morality.  The black twins and myself are all secret members of the KKK.

The real racists are the unapologetic Black Lives Matter race baiters like MSNBC's Jemele Harris:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RBMdKABKP4&t=13s

"This had to be an inside job" - - - stoke that racism Jemele, you always do!



Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Parsad on June 25, 2020, 08:30:57 AM
Blacks weigh in on hate crimes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwsRc31TFc

Just for you LC - All Lives Matter, including statues

Those two guys are the epitome of Dave Chapelle's Clayton Bigsby character...the blind, black white supremacist leader, who doesn't know he's black, and who hates his wife because she loves black people!  Cheers!

Yeah, they don't exactly follow the racist "Black Lives Matter" narrative now do they?

They actually think for themselves and are not afraid of the ridicule their principles bring them from the crowd.

Cheers back at ya'

You know, during the Second World War, there were Germans who weren't Nazis, nor did they believe or support the Nazi agenda.  There were also Jews who turned over other Jews to the Nazis.  History showed exactly which narrative was morally bankrupt...history will prove that again, and you'll be trying to explain your beliefs to your children and grandchildren.  Cheers!

Sure Parsad - thanks for the lesson on morality.  The black twins and myself are all secret members of the KKK.

The real racists are the unapologetic Black Lives Matter race baiters like MSNBC's Jemele Harris:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RBMdKABKP4&t=13s

"This had to be an inside job" - - - stoke that racism Jemele, you always do!

So they are black when the argument fits...you sure they aren't white...exactly the same as Bubba Wallace!  Which half of Barack Obama is left...the black side? 

That's why white people loved Tiger Woods in the beginning...he seemed so white.  But when he started to act arrogant and cheated on his wife...they said it was because he was black!  Now it's the same with black athletes...you're ok as long as you don't kneel.  But then the "N"-word comes flying out of mouths when they do kneel. 

Cheers!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 08:36:58 AM
I have no idea what your point is - but that's ok.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Ross812 on June 25, 2020, 08:38:34 AM
Cubs, do you believe there is a problem with the way people of color are treated in the US? It seems like you really don't like the way people are expressing the problem, but do you believe there is a problem in the first place? Assuming you do, how would you like them to bring attention to the problem?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 08:52:56 AM
Cubs, do you believe there is a problem with the way people of color are treated in the US? It seems like you really don't like the way people are expressing the problem, but do you believe there is a problem in the first place? Assuming you do, how would you like them to bring attention to the problem?

It's a great question Ross - and the right one.

This country does not have to be perfect to be great - and it is the greatest country in the world (ok - #2 to Canada is enough for me).

Of course, I absolutely detest the way Black Lives Matter is expressing the problem - looting, destruction, killing police and innocent by standers, and injuring several hundred police officers in the process.  I detest this racist organization. What they are doing is not about race - it's about power.
Overturn the whole system, which they say is rotten to the core - and trash it. Defund the police, rip down historical monuments, burn down
innocent businesses, etc ----  Of course I am not for this behavior.

Martin Luther King was the greatest civil rights American (white or black) of our time. MLK taught millions and millions of whites how to finally change -
AND what was right. MLK is an ICON and history still stands behind him.  Very few of our political leaders/media analysts can hold a candle to MLK -
and it's not because they are not smart or intelligent. They are.

MLK NEVER endorsed violence, NEVER participated in violence, looting, etc.
Show me ONE TIME that MLK ever did this.

People like Jemelle Hill, Whoopi Goldberg, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Bill DeBlasio, etc, etc - are NOT MLK. They are pseudo anarchists and race baiters

You bring attention to the problem by voting in the RIGHT leadership - not phony race baiters like these people.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 09:18:05 AM
Blacks weigh in on hate crimes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwsRc31TFc

Just for you LC - All Lives Matter, including statues

Those two guys are the epitome of Dave Chapelle's Clayton Bigsby character...the blind, black white supremacist leader, who doesn't know he's black, and who hates his wife because she loves black people!  Cheers!

Are African Americans allowed to be conservative? Are they allowed to have differing opinions from the liberal left on race relations? Or do democrats and liberals still believe they own blacks.

I agree that racism exists in society. There is no doubt about it. But I also believe that 99% of it exists on an individual level which cannot be fixed through legislation. So if 99% of racial issues have been addressed at a systemic level when exactly does the torch of responsibility get passed to the African American community?

People don't lock their car doors when driving through black neighborhoods because they hate black people. No, they are afraid of the culture where 13% of the population accounts for a disproportionate percent of the violent crime. If that culture were present in any other ethnicity group the reactions would be the same. I think the "race" aspect comes second. Society is culturally driven and this culture gets tacked on to ethnicity. Should people be given the benefit of the doubt? Absolutely! For all you know that could be a very respectable successful African American who has done more good for society that you ever will. But people play the numbers game....social creatures (humans) react to things based on stereotypes and assumptions. Every community is judged by their worst offenders. If you want to change the perception of your community you need to root out the bad apples. People don't want to admit that's how it works, but it's the truth. This works for anything including corporations, animals, product, religions, etc.


I think modern society is hitting that inflection point. There is so much anger right now but not a whole lot of guided direction. To me, this signifies the complete lack of introspection. There is work to be done on both sides no doubt. But I cannot say to myself with any degree of honesty that the majority of the African American issues in today's modern society are caused by white people. Maybe there are things that still need fixed at a systemic level. I'm not an expert by any means. But my question is, when does that torch of responsibility get passed? When is it appropriate to discuss this? Who is the appropriate moderator to bring up and discuss these topics? Who is ultimately responsible for the changes? What happens when we reach that point where on a societal systemic level racist policies don't exist but there is still stereotyping and assumptions made about ethnicity? Either way, what is happening now is most certainly creating more racism.

If you had to put a number on the issues in the African American community and who is responsible for said issues and stereotypes what would that number be? Is the current plight of the African American community 80% African American culture driven and 20% systemic/white oppression driven? Is it 90/10, 50/50, 10/90? If the 25% is caused by the 75% who fixes their issues first?

I think William Butler Yeats puts it nicely..."It takes more courage to examine the dark corners of your own soul than it does for a soldier to fight on a battlefield." And this is for everyone!

Edit: On a systemic level I would say the judicial system is what is unfair towards African Americans. The war on drugs and sentences both for other crimes are pretty well documented to be worse for minorities and particularly African Americans.

Any others?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 25, 2020, 09:21:52 AM
Thanks cubs, that tells everyone all they need to know.

Quote
MLK NEVER endorsed violence, NEVER participated in violence, looting, etc.
Show me ONE TIME that MLK ever did this.

Martin Luther King ;  American Psychology Association ;  Washington, DC ; September 1967:

“Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena,” he told the assembled crowd of mostly white doctors and academics. “They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking.”


And here, MLK addresses your entire post (which can be accurately described as "victim blaming"):

“Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society.”


Your opinion echoes the baloney opinion from the clergymen of Alabama, which MLK famously responded to in his letter from the Birmingham jail:

https://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/letter-to-martin-luther-king/

Try educating yourself, because your post is one big example of "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it":

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/01/dont-criticize-black-lives-matter-for-provoking-violence-the-civil-rights-movement-did-too/

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/04/kings-message-of-nonviolence-has-been-distorted/557021/

https://timeline.com/by-the-end-of-his-life-martin-luther-king-realized-the-validity-of-violence-4de177a8c87b
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 10:06:07 AM
Sure LC - rewrite history and distort the truth to fit your own agenda. Your intellectual dishonesty is stunning LC.

EVERYONE knows that MLK stood for "Non-violent"  protest as THE WAY to bring attention to the Civil Rights Movement.
Martin Luther King stood for boycotts, protests and marches, period. Didn't they teach you that in high school?

The man had a true belief in "all men were created equal" and deserved equality of opportunity.
What he could not influence or accomplish with legislation - MLK resorted to Civil Disobedience to shine a light on inequity.

You show your own ignorance by staining his name and tarnishing his reputation by putting him in the category of Al Sharpton.

Once again LC - you surprise me with your efforts to smear such a great icon.

Where in his iconic "I Have A Dream" speech - does the man advocate for violence?  Try education yourself LC.

https://www.archives.gov/files/press/exhibits/dream-speech.pdf

HINT: "We must forever conduct our s.truggle on the high plane of dignity and diseipline. We must not allow our crea­tive protests to degene·rate into physical violence."

Read the speech LC - better yet, memorize it - so you don't make such foolish claims again about something you obviously know nothing about.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Ross812 on June 25, 2020, 10:15:36 AM
Cubs, do you believe there is a problem with the way people of color are treated in the US? It seems like you really don't like the way people are expressing the problem, but do you believe there is a problem in the first place? Assuming you do, how would you like them to bring attention to the problem?

It's a great question Ross - and the right one.

This country does not have to be perfect to be great - and it is the greatest country in the world (ok - #2 to Canada is enough for me).

Of course, I absolutely detest the way Black Lives Matter is expressing the problem - looting, destruction, killing police and innocent by standers, and injuring several hundred police officers in the process.  I detest this racist organization. What they are doing is not about race - it's about power.
Overturn the whole system, which they say is rotten to the core - and trash it. Defund the police, rip down historical monuments, burn down
innocent businesses, etc ----  Of course I am not for this behavior.

Martin Luther King was the greatest civil rights American (white or black) of our time. MLK taught millions and millions of whites how to finally change -
AND what was right. MLK is an ICON and history still stands behind him.  Very few of our political leaders/media analysts can hold a candle to MLK -
and it's not because they are not smart or intelligent. They are.

MLK NEVER endorsed violence, NEVER participated in violence, looting, etc.
Show me ONE TIME that MLK ever did this.

People like Jemelle Hill, Whoopi Goldberg, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Bill DeBlasio, etc, etc - are NOT MLK. They are pseudo anarchists and race baiters

You bring attention to the problem by voting in the RIGHT leadership - not phony race baiters like these people.

So these leaders are calling attention to injustice and the end message is the black person is the victim. The nuance is lost and facts give way to the end message that supports a narrative. I understand being pissed off about that. Remember though, this happens on both sides. Most recently I remember Trump blaming Thugs outside his rally for the small crowd size.

The problems we are confronted with are black people being killed at a disproportionate rate by police, incarcerated at a disproportionate rate, impoverished at a disproportionate rate, and educated at a disproportionate rate. These problems are felt by the entire black community.

Quote
looting, destruction, killing police and innocent by standers, and injuring several hundred police officers in the process.

I certainly do not condone the above, but it is certainly no more destructive than what the black community is confronted with. You are saying this behavior has to stop then we can talk about your grievances. The inverted argument is our problems have to be addressed and then we can stop the behavior. It's a losing proposition on both sides.

I think you are right there is no modern day MLK, but not listening because you don't like the way people are asking is not going to solve anything. How do we want people to ask though? Outside of a peaceful protest that is easy to ignore, there will screaming the whole way. Remember, even MLK knew how to hit business owners in the pocket book where they would feel it.

This shouldn't be a right vs left thing. I agree the country doesn't have to be perfect to be great, but we have big minority saying the status quo is not working for them. Surely trying for better is preferable to accepting the status quo?


 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 25, 2020, 10:21:50 AM
A new report from the U.S. Census Bureau shows America's population is 60.1 percent white
...
Whites make up just a shade under 50 percent of the under-16 population, the first time in American history they have dropped below majority status among the youngest cohort.


https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/504510-census-shows-asian-hispanic-populations-booming
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 11:00:54 AM
Cubs, do you believe there is a problem with the way people of color are treated in the US? It seems like you really don't like the way people are expressing the problem, but do you believe there is a problem in the first place? Assuming you do, how would you like them to bring attention to the problem?

It's a great question Ross - and the right one.

This country does not have to be perfect to be great - and it is the greatest country in the world (ok - #2 to Canada is enough for me).

Of course, I absolutely detest the way Black Lives Matter is expressing the problem - looting, destruction, killing police and innocent by standers, and injuring several hundred police officers in the process.  I detest this racist organization. What they are doing is not about race - it's about power.
Overturn the whole system, which they say is rotten to the core - and trash it. Defund the police, rip down historical monuments, burn down
innocent businesses, etc ----  Of course I am not for this behavior.

Martin Luther King was the greatest civil rights American (white or black) of our time. MLK taught millions and millions of whites how to finally change -
AND what was right. MLK is an ICON and history still stands behind him.  Very few of our political leaders/media analysts can hold a candle to MLK -
and it's not because they are not smart or intelligent. They are.

MLK NEVER endorsed violence, NEVER participated in violence, looting, etc.
Show me ONE TIME that MLK ever did this.

People like Jemelle Hill, Whoopi Goldberg, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Bill DeBlasio, etc, etc - are NOT MLK. They are pseudo anarchists and race baiters

You bring attention to the problem by voting in the RIGHT leadership - not phony race baiters like these people.

So these leaders are calling attention to injustice and the end message is the black person is the victim. The nuance is lost and facts give way to the end message that supports a narrative. I understand being pissed off about that. Remember though, this happens on both sides. Most recently I remember Trump blaming Thugs outside his rally for the small crowd size.

The problems we are confronted with are black people being killed at a disproportionate rate by police, incarcerated at a disproportionate rate, impoverished at a disproportionate rate, and educated at a disproportionate rate. These problems are felt by the entire black community.

Quote
looting, destruction, killing police and innocent by standers, and injuring several hundred police officers in the process.

I certainly do not condone the above, but it is certainly no more destructive than what the black community is confronted with. You are saying this behavior has to stop then we can talk about your grievances. The inverted argument is our problems have to be addressed and then we can stop the behavior. It's a losing proposition on both sides.

I think you are right there is no modern day MLK, but not listening because you don't like the way people are asking is not going to solve anything. How do we want people to ask though? Outside of a peaceful protest that is easy to ignore, there will screaming the whole way. Remember, even MLK knew how to hit business owners in the pocket book where they would feel it.

This shouldn't be a right vs left thing. I agree the country doesn't have to be perfect to be great, but we have big minority saying the status quo is not working for them. Surely trying for better is preferable to accepting the status quo?

If you like to "invert the argument" - perhaps look at it this way: If I felt I have been wronged by LC, are you ok with me coming to trash your home,
loot it, and perhaps harm your children - just so I can feel better?  If the answer is CLEARLY NO - then we have some common ground.
If the answer is a "qualified yes" - "well I can understand it, etc" - it will be hard to make progress. 

Don't fight racism with more racism (or violence).

It really IS worth reading MLK's speech - I Have A Dream:

https://www.archives.gov/files/press/exhibits/dream-speech.pdf

And that is something that I must say to my people who stand on the worn threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not "seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness, lawlessness and hatred.
We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our crea­tive protests to degenerate into physical violence.


It's possible some think the message of the great MLK is obsolete - I am not one of them.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 25, 2020, 11:09:48 AM
While I agree with Cubs' point about the violence etc being wrong, I feel that society must address how we got these angry mobs in the first place, and address the problem head-on.

When I see a policeman with a club beating a man on the ground, I don't have to ask whose side I'm on.
George Orwell
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 11:17:44 AM
While I agree with Cubs' point about the violence etc being wrong, I feel that society must address how we got these angry mobs in the first place, and address the problem head-on.

When I see a policeman with a club beating a man on the ground, I don't have to ask whose side I'm on.
George Orwell

Sorry, while I have a heart attack! Agree twice in 1 year - historic!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 25, 2020, 11:21:21 AM
The problem is this. Fifty years after that speech some things have changed very little - just look at the number of blacks that have been killed by police which is what has caused to latest protests. If the problem is ignored after years of peaceful protests, than it should be no surprise if violence occurs. No one is condoning violence, but you can only keep the lid on for so long.

Furthermore, if you watched the demonstration at the White House the day Trump hid in the bunker it was very obvious who caused the violence and who ordered it.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 11:30:49 AM
The problem is this. Fifty years after that speech some things have changed very little - just look at the number of blacks that have been killed by police which is what has caused to latest protests. If the problem is ignored after years of peaceful protests, than it should be no surprise if violence occurs. No one is condoning violence, but you can only keep the lid on for so long.

Furthermore, if you watched the demonstration at the White House the day Trump hid in the bunker it was very obvious who caused the violence and who ordered it.

That is so clearly wrong it's not funny. It's not even close. MLK changed everything - voting rights, segregation law, the civil rights act, the fair housing act. And that is just legislation that permanently changed the LEGAL rights of black Americans.

More importantly - he had a huge influence on the mindset of middle class whites to their black counterparts.
The man single handedly moved the moral mountain for blacks and whites together to an atmosphere of mutual respect.

When were you born anyway?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 25, 2020, 11:41:08 AM
I didn't say things haven't changed, they have. But not enough. Blacks are not treated equally.
If you read what I said:
" some things have changed very little - just look at the number of blacks that have been killed by police"
... and I heard his speech when he made it.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 11:45:27 AM
I didn't say things haven't changed, they have. But not enough. Blacks are not treated equally.

You said things have changed very little since 50 years ago - your words not mine. Tremendous progress has been made.

Like I said before - this country does not need to be perfect to be great. And it's still the greatest and fairest country in the world.
That's why everyone wants to come here. (In addition to Canada).
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 25, 2020, 11:56:33 AM
cubs you're off your meds if you think MLK was nonviolent. Or, more likely, you have a cursory knowledge of history.

It's funny that say this:
Quote
"EVERYONE knows that MLK stood for "Non-violent"  protest as THE WAY to bring attention to the Civil Rights Movement.
Martin Luther King stood for boycotts, protests and marches, period. Didn't they teach you that in high school?"

They also taught me that George Washington had wooden teeth and it goes to the point I made earlier about your lack of historical knowledge. You have a superficial knowledge of MLK's actions and the decisions he made. One such decision, to put children at the front of a march which would certainly turn violent:

Quote
The most jarring evidence of this came just a month after King’s Birmingham jail letter. In May 1963, movement organizers assembled black children , some still in pigtails, to march through the streets of Birmingham and confront Bull Connor’s violent police force. It was a controversial tactic within the movement, but organizers must have known that images of jailed, beaten and cowering children would affect hearts, force a response from officials and move the movement toward its goals.

“They couldn’t have been ignorant of the terrible response,” says King biographer and New York University historian David Levering Lewis. “King and his inner circle appreciated the probable certainty of violence on the part of the establishment to trigger responses that they wanted, in terms of legislation and policies.”  The children called it “D-Day.”

Connor didn’t disappoint. He attacked the marchers with German shepherds and baton-wielding policemen. Connor’s army funneled hundreds of children and teenagers into overcrowded jail cells. Still, the kids returned to the streets the next day. And the day after that. Malcolm X, whom history treats as the movement’s violent alter ego, criticized King for the event, saying that “real men don’t put their children on the firing line.” King, on the other hand, called it “one of the wisest moves we made.”

Quote
If you like to "invert the argument" - perhaps look at it this way: If I felt I have been wronged by LC, are you ok with me coming to trash your home,
loot it, and perhaps harm your children - just so I can feel better?
False equivalency. Your argument is crumbling because it is superficial.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 12:01:23 PM
While I agree with Cubs' point about the violence etc being wrong, I feel that society must address how we got these angry mobs in the first place, and address the problem head-on.

When I see a policeman with a club beating a man on the ground, I don't have to ask whose side I'm on.
George Orwell

I think most of the current racial angst in this country can be traced to the disparities in the judicial system. Sure if you do the crime you should do the time. But that time should be equal to those of other races. So to point out one systemic difference. Also there is the war on drugs. And again, if you do the crime you should do the time. But being as there is people locked up for weed violations in states where marijuana is legal is ridiculous. That's a bit off topic and affects all races so I wont go there. But the longer average sentence time is specific to African Americans. The judicial system is a mess in general...and I think a lot of the anger with issues in that system are getting projected onto other singe issues that are either pretty minor on a societal level or in actuality a conglomerate of issues.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 12:03:52 PM
The problem is this. Fifty years after that speech some things have changed very little - just look at the number of blacks that have been killed by police which is what has caused to latest protests. If the problem is ignored after years of peaceful protests, than it should be no surprise if violence occurs. No one is condoning violence, but you can only keep the lid on for so long.

Furthermore, if you watched the demonstration at the White House the day Trump hid in the bunker it was very obvious who caused the violence and who ordered it.

Do you have the numbers?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 25, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Got a little problem with reading comprehension Cubs.

I said:

"...some things have changed very little -  just look at the number of blacks that have been killed by police..."

SOME things...

Got it now? Sheech.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 12:09:13 PM
cubs you're off your meds if you think MLK was nonviolent. Or, more likely, you have a cursory knowledge of history.

It's funny that say this:
Quote
"EVERYONE knows that MLK stood for "Non-violent"  protest as THE WAY to bring attention to the Civil Rights Movement.
Martin Luther King stood for boycotts, protests and marches, period. Didn't they teach you that in high school?"

They also taught me that George Washington had wooden teeth and it goes to the point I made earlier about your lack of historical knowledge. You have a superficial knowledge of MLK's actions and the decisions he made. One such decision, to put children at the front of a march which would certainly turn violent:

Quote
The most jarring evidence of this came just a month after King’s Birmingham jail letter. In May 1963, movement organizers assembled black children , some still in pigtails, to march through the streets of Birmingham and confront Bull Connor’s violent police force. It was a controversial tactic within the movement, but organizers must have known that images of jailed, beaten and cowering children would affect hearts, force a response from officials and move the movement toward its goals.

“They couldn’t have been ignorant of the terrible response,” says King biographer and New York University historian David Levering Lewis. “King and his inner circle appreciated the probable certainty of violence on the part of the establishment to trigger responses that they wanted, in terms of legislation and policies.”  The children called it “D-Day.”

Connor didn’t disappoint. He attacked the marchers with German shepherds and baton-wielding policemen. Connor’s army funneled hundreds of children and teenagers into overcrowded jail cells. Still, the kids returned to the streets the next day. And the day after that. Malcolm X, whom history treats as the movement’s violent alter ego, criticized King for the event, saying that “real men don’t put their children on the firing line.” King, on the other hand, called it “one of the wisest moves we made.”

Quote
If you like to "invert the argument" - perhaps look at it this way: If I felt I have been wronged by LC, are you ok with me coming to trash your home,
loot it, and perhaps harm your children - just so I can feel better?
False equivalency. Your argument is crumbling because it is superficial.

LC - Sorry that you made YOURSELF look stupid with you comments about MLK.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 25, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
While I agree with Cubs' point about the violence etc being wrong, I feel that society must address how we got these angry mobs in the first place, and address the problem head-on.

When I see a policeman with a club beating a man on the ground, I don't have to ask whose side I'm on.
George Orwell

I think most of the current racial angst in this country can be traced to the disparities in the judicial system. Sure if you do the crime you should do the time. But that time should be equal to those of other races. So to point out one systemic difference. Also there is the war on drugs. And again, if you do the crime you should do the time. But being as there is people locked up for weed violations in states where marijuana is legal is ridiculous. That's a bit off topic and affects all races so I wont go there. But the longer average sentence time is specific to African Americans. The judicial system is a mess in general...and I think a lot of the anger with issues in that system are getting projected onto other singe issues that are either pretty minor on a societal level or in actuality a conglomerate of issues.

First-time offenders get lighter sentences.  I don't know to what degree that explains things.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 25, 2020, 12:11:08 PM
"Do you have the numbers?"

Not sure to what numbers you are referring, but a hint could be the title of this thread.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 12:15:24 PM
"Do you have the numbers?"

Not sure to what numbers you are referring, but a hint could be the title of this thread.

Police shootings
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 12:15:57 PM
https://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/story/_/id/29364817/nascar-releases-image-noose-found-bubba-wallace-garage-says-concern-was-real

NASCAR released image of the noose in question.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 25, 2020, 12:18:48 PM
cubs you're off your meds if you think MLK was nonviolent. Or, more likely, you have a cursory knowledge of history.

It's funny that say this:
Quote
"EVERYONE knows that MLK stood for "Non-violent"  protest as THE WAY to bring attention to the Civil Rights Movement.
Martin Luther King stood for boycotts, protests and marches, period. Didn't they teach you that in high school?"

They also taught me that George Washington had wooden teeth and it goes to the point I made earlier about your lack of historical knowledge. You have a superficial knowledge of MLK's actions and the decisions he made. One such decision, to put children at the front of a march which would certainly turn violent:

Quote
The most jarring evidence of this came just a month after King’s Birmingham jail letter. In May 1963, movement organizers assembled black children , some still in pigtails, to march through the streets of Birmingham and confront Bull Connor’s violent police force. It was a controversial tactic within the movement, but organizers must have known that images of jailed, beaten and cowering children would affect hearts, force a response from officials and move the movement toward its goals.

“They couldn’t have been ignorant of the terrible response,” says King biographer and New York University historian David Levering Lewis. “King and his inner circle appreciated the probable certainty of violence on the part of the establishment to trigger responses that they wanted, in terms of legislation and policies.”  The children called it “D-Day.”

Connor didn’t disappoint. He attacked the marchers with German shepherds and baton-wielding policemen. Connor’s army funneled hundreds of children and teenagers into overcrowded jail cells. Still, the kids returned to the streets the next day. And the day after that. Malcolm X, whom history treats as the movement’s violent alter ego, criticized King for the event, saying that “real men don’t put their children on the firing line.” King, on the other hand, called it “one of the wisest moves we made.”

Quote
If you like to "invert the argument" - perhaps look at it this way: If I felt I have been wronged by LC, are you ok with me coming to trash your home,
loot it, and perhaps harm your children - just so I can feel better?
False equivalency. Your argument is crumbling because it is superficial.

LC - Sorry that you made YOURSELF look stupid with you comments about MLK.

You’ve volunteered quite enough information to conclude that you simply have no idea what you’re talking about.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 12:26:49 PM

This shouldn't be a right vs left thing. I agree the country doesn't have to be perfect to be great, but we have big minority saying the status quo is not working for them. Surely trying for better is preferable to accepting the status quo?

Once again Ross - you are getting to the heart of the matter - What is the right approach for minorities? Why should they accept the status quo?

My answer: They shouldn't. There is much they can do to "lift" themselves. But this narrative doesn't sell with the race-baiters who continually
tell the minorities they are "victims". It's the old "oppressor/oppressed" argument. Every group is a victim.

The Brookings Institute has 3 broad answers for minorities to "lift" themselves out of poverty:

1-  Finish High School
2-  Get a Full Time Job
3-  Don't have children before you are married

Brookings conclusion: IF you do these 3 things, there is a very small chance that you live in poverty.

My question to you:  Does this make sense to you?  Did this work for you?  Did your parents influence your development in a positive way?

This is a simple yet powerful formula. I don't not hear this from Black Lives Matter or losers like Al Sharpton, Maxine Waters, Jemelle Harris, Farrakhan, etc.    and all the others peddling "victimhood" to the black community.

The answer is not destruction of their own neighborhoods and all that is good in this country.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 25, 2020, 12:30:27 PM
"Do you have the numbers?"

Not sure to what numbers you are referring, but a hint could be the title of this thread.

Police shootings

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 12:30:51 PM
cubs you're off your meds if you think MLK was nonviolent. Or, more likely, you have a cursory knowledge of history.

It's funny that say this:


LC - Sorry that you made YOURSELF look stupid with you comments about MLK.

You’ve volunteered quite enough information to conclude that you simply have no idea what you’re talking about.


Listen to you - you are the guy suggesting that MLK condone and encouraged violence as a means to get to his goal.
That is just a flat out lie and you know it.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 25, 2020, 12:33:10 PM
"Do you have the numbers?"

Not sure to what numbers you are referring, but a hint could be the title of this thread.

Police shootings

Well I wasn't referring specifically to shootings - I was referring to the police killings of black people that occur with too much regularity as I am sure you have seen. As for numbers, how many do you think would be too many. I would suggest one.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 25, 2020, 12:33:32 PM
Interesting chart showing that police violence in US cities does not correspond to the level of violent crime in those cities


There is no excuse for police violence

Levels of violent crime in US cities do not determine rates of police violence.


https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 25, 2020, 12:39:34 PM
How ironic that you lay such false praise at the feet of MLK's memory, while his own words brand you and those like you the biggest barrier to progress, freedom, and equality:

“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice;” he wrote, “who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action.’”

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: ERICOPOLY on June 25, 2020, 12:39:58 PM
Buffalo, NY
Population: 258,959
Percentage people of color:  50%
Violent crime rate:  12 per 1000
0 people killed by Buffalo police from 2013-2106


Orlando, FL
Population 255,483
Percentage people of color:  42%
Violent crime rate:  9 per 1000
13 people killed by Orlando police from 2013-2016

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 12:41:57 PM
Black Lives Matter - be careful what you wish for....

https://www.dailywire.com/news/defund-the-police-nyc-shootings-explode-amid-disbanding-of-anti-crime-units-reassignment-of-hundreds-of-officers

‘Defund The Police’: NYC Shootings EXPLODE Amid Disbanding Of Anti-Crime Units, Reassignment Of Hundreds Of Officers

As calls from the Left intensify to abolish the police, and New York City takes action to remove officers and dismantle vital anti-crime units, the city that never sleeps surged in gun violence by a stunning 358% since this time last year.

Great job Mayor De Blasio!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 12:45:11 PM
"Do you have the numbers?"

Not sure to what numbers you are referring, but a hint could be the title of this thread.

Police shootings

Well I wasn't referring specifically to shootings - I was referring to the police killings of black people that occur with too much regularity as I am sure you have seen. As for numbers, how many do you think would be too many. I would suggest one.

All I’m saying is if you’re not willing to look at the numbers then how can you form an opinion or a conclusion?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 12:46:00 PM
How ironic that you lay such false praise at the feet of MLK's memory, while his own words brand you and those like you the biggest barrier to progress, freedom, and equality:

“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice;” he wrote, “who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action.’”


and of course, there is nothing in that statement that I disagree with.  You are a fan of violence, I am not.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 25, 2020, 12:49:33 PM
The problem is this. Fifty years after that speech some things have changed very little - just look at the number of blacks that have been killed by police which is what has caused to latest protests. If the problem is ignored after years of peaceful protests, than it should be no surprise if violence occurs. No one is condoning violence, but you can only keep the lid on for so long.

Furthermore, if you watched the demonstration at the White House the day Trump hid in the bunker it was very obvious who caused the violence and who ordered it.

That is so clearly wrong it's not funny. It's not even close. MLK changed everything - voting rights, segregation law, the civil rights act, the fair housing act. And that is just legislation that permanently changed the LEGAL rights of black Americans.

More importantly - he had a huge influence on the mindset of middle class whites to their black counterparts.
The man single handedly moved the moral mountain for blacks and whites together to an atmosphere of mutual respect.

When were you born anyway?

MLK totally went about it the wrong way. He didnt have his ass hanging out of his pants, no style with his hair, nothing. Guy wore a suit most days, spoke properly, and wasn't violent. What a fool!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 01:13:26 PM
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2019/07/31/you-re-gonna-kill-me-dallas-police-body-cam-footage-reveals-the-final-minutes-of-tony-timpa-s-life/
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 25, 2020, 01:45:31 PM
Well golly gee gosh. I must have it all wrong. You guys must be right, everything is just hunky dory, all this stuff about blacks being discriminated against and killed by police? Well that is just more Fake News. 

Perhaps you should ask George Floyd, Beronna Taylor, Alalianna Jefferson, Aura Rosser, Stephon Clark, Botham Jean, Philando Castille, Alton Sterling, Michelle Casseausx, Freddie Gray, Janesha Fonville, Eric Garner, Akai Gruley, Gabriella Navarez, Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, Tanisha Anderson, Rayshard Brooks, etc, etc, etc. how fake they think the news is. Oh wait.... 

“ Sadly, the trend of fatal police shootings in the United States seems to only be increasing, with a total 429 civilians having been shot, 88 of whom were Black, as of June 4, 2020. In 2018, there were 996 fatal police shootings, and in 2019 this figure increased to 1,004. Additionally, the rate of fatal police shootings among Black Americans was much higher than that for any other ethnicity, standing at 30 fatal shootings per million of the population as of June 2020.”
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 01:52:57 PM
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2019/07/31/you-re-gonna-kill-me-dallas-police-body-cam-footage-reveals-the-final-minutes-of-tony-timpa-s-life/

Same thing in Chicago with LaQuan McDonald, who was murdered. The entire police department, City Attorney General and Mayor's department
covered up the crime for 13 months.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60aN3adU5bA


This was an awful crime and coverup. He was shot 16 times while walking away and lying on the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjKVNjM3amI

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 25, 2020, 02:07:46 PM

and of course, there is nothing in that statement that I disagree with.  You are a fan of violence, I am not.


Who constantly says, ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action.'
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 02:11:53 PM
Well golly gee gosh. I must have it all wrong. You guys must be right, everything is just hunky dory, all this stuff about blacks being discriminated against and killed by police? Well that is just more Fake News. 

Perhaps you should ask George Floyd, Beronna Taylor, Alalianna Jefferson, Aura Rosser, Stephon Clark, Botham Jean, Philando Castille, Alton Sterling, Michelle Casseausx, Freddie Gray, Janesha Fonville, Eric Garner, Akai Gruley, Gabriella Navarez, Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, Tanisha Anderson, Rayshard Brooks, etc, etc, etc. how fake they think the news is. Oh wait.... 

“ Sadly, the trend of fatal police shootings in the United States seems to only be increasing, with a total 429 civilians having been shot, 88 of whom were Black, as of June 4, 2020. In 2018, there were 996 fatal police shootings, and in 2019 this figure increased to 1,004. Additionally, the rate of fatal police shootings among Black Americans was much higher than that for any other ethnicity, standing at 30 fatal shootings per million of the population as of June 2020.”

I didn’t say anything about it being false. Simply pointing out it’s not as exaggerated and race driven as you assume. I just posted a link a white guy killed by kneeling. There is also Duncan Lemp, Daniel Shaver and a ton of others. Police brutality and excessive force IS an issue. But I disagree that it’s primarily race driven. Race probably plays a part to an extent. But I would say it’s more driven by socio economic status than race.

Here is a good place to find raw FBI data instead of some politically charged open piece. There are a bunch of other tables as well for other things. I would say both sides Left and Right over exaggerate their talking points.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 02:15:14 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/media/black-lives-matter-leader-burn-down-system

Stay aligned with the just cause!

Nice interview:

Black Lives Matter leader states if US 'doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system'
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 25, 2020, 02:26:08 PM
Here are some interesting numbers:
Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.

The point of my original post was that you will eventually have violence if there is an unjust situation (ie. police killings of unarmed blacks) that is allowed to fester over many years and steps are not taken to resolve the issue.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 25, 2020, 03:44:26 PM
Here are some interesting numbers:
Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.

The point of my original post was that you will eventually have violence if there is an unjust situation (ie. police killings of unarmed blacks) that is allowed to fester over many years and steps are not taken to resolve the issue.

I think the simple statistical question based on this would be, how do these percentages fair in comparison to the numbers of crimes each commit? This would then provide proper context, and my assumption is that the more crimes you commit, the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, and the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, the more likely you are to have an incident.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 04:28:48 PM
Here are some interesting numbers:
Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.

The point of my original post was that you will eventually have violence if there is an unjust situation (ie. police killings of unarmed blacks) that is allowed to fester over many years and steps are not taken to resolve the issue.

I think the simple statistical question based on this would be, how do these percentages fair in comparison to the numbers of crimes each commit? This would then provide proper context, and my assumption is that the more crimes you commit, the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, and the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, the more likely you are to have an incident.

That is precisely the right argument.

In Chicago - which is about 1/3 white, 1/3 black and 1/3 hispanic - blacks account for 70% of the crime unfortunately.
90+% of the black murders are black on black crime.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 04:48:47 PM
Here are some interesting numbers:
Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.

The point of my original post was that you will eventually have violence if there is an unjust situation (ie. police killings of unarmed blacks) that is allowed to fester over many years and steps are not taken to resolve the issue.

I think the simple statistical question based on this would be, how do these percentages fair in comparison to the numbers of crimes each commit? This would then provide proper context, and my assumption is that the more crimes you commit, the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, and the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, the more likely you are to have an incident.

Here's some other fun stats on the issue of American policing in 2019:

Number of unarmed black men killed at the hands of the police  -  9
Population of USA                                                                   -  330 million
Number of police officers                                                         -  660,000

Number of Chicago residents killed by gunfire this past weekend -  18
Number of Chicago residents shot and killed in 2019                  - 492

So no Black Lives Matter Protest for those killed this weekend in Chicago. Too bad isn't it?

IS that really systemic racism among the police?
Why no outrage over the black on black killings?



Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Ross812 on June 25, 2020, 05:47:07 PM
Here are some interesting numbers:
Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.

The point of my original post was that you will eventually have violence if there is an unjust situation (ie. police killings of unarmed blacks) that is allowed to fester over many years and steps are not taken to resolve the issue.

I think the simple statistical question based on this would be, how do these percentages fair in comparison to the numbers of crimes each commit? This would then provide proper context, and my assumption is that the more crimes you commit, the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, and the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, the more likely you are to have an incident.

Here's some other fun stats on the issue of American policing in 2019:

Number of unarmed black men killed at the hands of the police  -  9
Population of USA                                                                   -  330 million
Number of police officers                                                         -  660,000

Number of Chicago residents killed by gunfire this past weekend -  18
Number of Chicago residents shot and killed in 2019                  - 492

So no Black Lives Matter Protest for those killed this weekend in Chicago. Too bad isn't it?

IS that really systemic racism among the police?
Why no outrage over the black on black killings?

Your number is from October and is only shooting deaths I think it was closer to 13 + another 12 if you count the unarmed people who are beat to death, choked, or run over.

As for outrage. Both things can be a problem. Just because one is a bigger problem by the numbers doesn't make the other go away. Black people are mistreated by the very institution that is supposed to be there to protect people. That is the very definition of institutional racism.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 06:02:25 PM
Here are some interesting numbers:
Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.

The point of my original post was that you will eventually have violence if there is an unjust situation (ie. police killings of unarmed blacks) that is allowed to fester over many years and steps are not taken to resolve the issue.

I think the simple statistical question based on this would be, how do these percentages fair in comparison to the numbers of crimes each commit? This would then provide proper context, and my assumption is that the more crimes you commit, the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, and the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, the more likely you are to have an incident.

Here's some other fun stats on the issue of American policing in 2019:

Number of unarmed black men killed at the hands of the police  -  9
Population of USA                                                                   -  330 million
Number of police officers                                                         -  660,000

Number of Chicago residents killed by gunfire this past weekend -  18
Number of Chicago residents shot and killed in 2019                  - 492

So no Black Lives Matter Protest for those killed this weekend in Chicago. Too bad isn't it?

IS that really systemic racism among the police?
Why no outrage over the black on black killings?

Your number is from October and is only shooting deaths I think it was closer to 13 + another 12 if you count the unarmed people who are beat to death, choked, or run over.

As for outrage. Both things can be a problem. Just because one is a bigger problem by the numbers doesn't make the other go away. Black people are mistreated by the very institution that is supposed to be there to protect people. That is the very definition of institutional racism.

Ross I don’t disagree with your view. And if this helps to start the conversation regarding judicial system cleanup then great! That’s a good thing. I also have no problem with specifically saying black lives matter. The organization itself I don’t agree with though. I don’t line their approach, Theo demands and threats etc. I think people who are trying to shout down the relevance of what’s going on by saying all lives matter come across a bit ignorant and end up sounding like Lester Maddox during the Jim Brown debate. Not to say that all people saying “all lives matter” are wrong in their entirety. There are certainly individuals who are saying that in response primarily to the BLM group and not the black lives matter movement. All in all, I think it’s one shit load of semantics and I think most people in society would agree with what Robert Kennedy had to say after the MLK assassination.

The debate below is highly relevant today. However I think it’s also a bit ignorant to take the context of this debate and apply it directly to modern society. Surely we’ve progressed since the 60s. But some of the themes and justifications/stances are very similar. Also Maddox wouldn’t stfu and keep interrupting Jim Brown....would have been good to hear more.

https://youtu.be/TAMWsWvcbtg
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2020, 06:05:22 PM
Here are some interesting numbers:
Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.

The point of my original post was that you will eventually have violence if there is an unjust situation (ie. police killings of unarmed blacks) that is allowed to fester over many years and steps are not taken to resolve the issue.

I think the simple statistical question based on this would be, how do these percentages fair in comparison to the numbers of crimes each commit? This would then provide proper context, and my assumption is that the more crimes you commit, the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, and the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, the more likely you are to have an incident.

Here's some other fun stats on the issue of American policing in 2019:

Number of unarmed black men killed at the hands of the police  -  9
Population of USA                                                                   -  330 million
Number of police officers                                                         -  660,000

Number of Chicago residents killed by gunfire this past weekend -  18
Number of Chicago residents shot and killed in 2019                  - 492

So no Black Lives Matter Protest for those killed this weekend in Chicago. Too bad isn't it?

IS that really systemic racism among the police?
Why no outrage over the black on black killings?

Your number is from October and is only shooting deaths I think it was closer to 13 + another 12 if you count the unarmed people who are beat to death, choked, or run over.

As for outrage. Both things can be a problem. Just because one is a bigger problem by the numbers doesn't make the other go away. Black people are mistreated by the very institution that is supposed to be there to protect people. That is the very definition of institutional racism.

Wrong. These are all shootings. Mostly black on black. Where is your outrage?

Here are some numbers from Memorial Day weekend:

85 shot
24 shot fatally
3 day period

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/6/1/21275944/chicago-weekend-shootings-most-violent-weekend-2020-may-29-june-1

The horrible stat about this past weekend - several innocent children were shot and killed. One victim was a 3 year old girl.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 25, 2020, 07:00:16 PM
“However I think it’s also a bit ignorant to take the context of this debate and apply it directly to modern society. Surely we’ve progressed since the 60s.”

But haven’t you said that people should be able to possess modern day weapons because of a document written 230 years ago? Surely we have progressed since the 1780's.

I am not looking to open a gun debate, just remembering some things you said before.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 07:22:54 PM
“However I think it’s also a bit ignorant to take the context of this debate and apply it directly to modern society. Surely we’ve progressed since the 60s.”

But haven’t you said that people should be able to possess modern day weapons because of a document written 230 years ago? Surely we have progressed since the 1780's.

I am not looking to open a gun debate, just remembering some things you said before.

This debate took place before civil rights became legislation. That has literally nothing to do with a gun debate...in fact civil rights was to guarantee the proper rights to all under the constitution

Edit: you’re right, we have progressed. Which is exactly why owning an AR15 is justified and why you can have your first amendment rights protected under all forms of communications. If you can’t look at the current police state and government overreach and not see a reason for citizens to own similar equipment then you likely won’t ever see it. It’s convenient to refer to the Constitution as “some document” when it’s about something you don’t agree with.

I took the bait a little...but I’ll end it with that.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 25, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
You kinda missed my point.

It had nothing to do with guns in themselves. My point was simply about attempting to apply something concocted many years ago to modern society.

Some time ago you disagreed when I argued that it was unrealistic to apply something (2nd amendment) that was written 200+ years ago to modern society and pointed out that we had progressed since then.

Today you say " I think it’s also a bit ignorant to take the context of this debate and apply it directly to modern society. Surely we’ve progressed since the 60s.”
 
Just a little bit of irony, that's all.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2020, 08:43:29 PM
You kinda missed my point.

It had nothing to do with guns in themselves. My point was simply about attempting to apply something concocted many years ago to modern society.

Some time ago you disagreed when I argued that it was unrealistic to apply something (2nd amendment) that was written 200+ years ago to modern society and pointed out that we had progressed since then.

Today you say " I think it’s also a bit ignorant to take the context of this debate and apply it directly to modern society. Surely we’ve progressed since the 60s.”
 
Just a little bit of irony, that's all.

The context of the debate is not the same as today because the civil rights act is now passed. There is zero irony with that. If anything it’s similar to my view because civil rights was about bringing societies legislation up to modern societal standards within a constitutional scope. Same goes for ARs
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Ross812 on June 25, 2020, 09:01:57 PM
Here are some interesting numbers:
Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.

The point of my original post was that you will eventually have violence if there is an unjust situation (ie. police killings of unarmed blacks) that is allowed to fester over many years and steps are not taken to resolve the issue.

I think the simple statistical question based on this would be, how do these percentages fair in comparison to the numbers of crimes each commit? This would then provide proper context, and my assumption is that the more crimes you commit, the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, and the more likely you are to have an encounter with a cop, the more likely you are to have an incident.

Here's some other fun stats on the issue of American policing in 2019:

Number of unarmed black men killed at the hands of the police  -  9
Population of USA                                                                   -  330 million
Number of police officers                                                         -  660,000

Number of Chicago residents killed by gunfire this past weekend -  18
Number of Chicago residents shot and killed in 2019                  - 492

So no Black Lives Matter Protest for those killed this weekend in Chicago. Too bad isn't it?

IS that really systemic racism among the police?
Why no outrage over the black on black killings?

Your number is from October and is only shooting deaths I think it was closer to 13 + another 12 if you count the unarmed people who are beat to death, choked, or run over.

As for outrage. Both things can be a problem. Just because one is a bigger problem by the numbers doesn't make the other go away. Black people are mistreated by the very institution that is supposed to be there to protect people. That is the very definition of institutional racism.

Wrong. These are all shootings. Mostly black on black. Where is your outrage?

Here are some numbers from Memorial Day weekend:

85 shot
24 shot fatally
3 day period

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/6/1/21275944/chicago-weekend-shootings-most-violent-weekend-2020-may-29-june-1

The horrible stat about this past weekend - several innocent children were shot and killed. One victim was a 3 year old girl.

I'm outraged by both. My taxes pay the police so technically I can say 1 or 8 or 13 shootings of unarmed black men is too many. I have no control over the black community. I can help remove impediments to the community's success but the community has to address black on black crime.

I think the protests and blm is more than just the police.  You want them to fix their own problems before asking for help and you don't like the way they are asking.

Have you ever thought that the individuals involved in this black on black crime is a small minority of the community?  Should the people playing by the rules be penalized because they look like one of those above individuals?

That is what this is all about. These people are all individuals and shouldnt have to fix others who look like themselves before they deserve not to get harrased by the police.

Why not let bank tellers slip $20 a day to themselves when the c block awards their own bonuses?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 26, 2020, 07:12:33 AM
I think the protests and blm is more than just the police.  You want them to fix their own problems before asking for help and you don't like the way they are asking.

Have you ever thought that the individuals involved in this black on black crime is a small minority of the community?  Should the people playing by the rules be penalized because they look like one of those above individuals?


Dude I have no problem with them asking for help. None. Rioting, looting, injuring and killing people is not in that book. Of course I don't like
the way they are asking. It's not exactly a small minority. It's happening all over the country.

In respect to Chicago - you have a 1 party town that has been totally controlled and administered by the Democratic Party for 70 years.
Government has failed the local community. What can I say. Chicago is definitely a train wreck. Now check out Minneapolis and Seattle.
Police brutality is an issue. But Local government is an enormous issue. Wait until they defund the police force in Seattle or Minneapolis,
then the police willl be out of it completely and murder and crime will skyrocket.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 26, 2020, 07:21:46 AM
Another wing-nut race baiter politician that supports Black Lives Matter:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/democrat-rep-pressley-black-lives-matter-is-a-mandate-pay-us-what-you-owe-us?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Democrat Rep. Pressley: ‘Black Lives Matter Is A Mandate,’ ‘Pay Us What You Owe Us’

Newsome said, “If this country doesn’t give us what we want then we will burn down the system and replace it.”
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Ross812 on June 26, 2020, 09:42:03 AM
I think the protests and blm is more than just the police.  You want them to fix their own problems before asking for help and you don't like the way they are asking.

Have you ever thought that the individuals involved in this black on black crime is a small minority of the community?  Should the people playing by the rules be penalized because they look like one of those above individuals?


Dude I have no problem with them asking for help. None. Rioting, looting, injuring and killing people is not in that book. Of course I don't like
the way they are asking. It's not exactly a small minority. It's happening all over the country.

In respect to Chicago - you have a 1 party town that has been totally controlled and administered by the Democratic Party for 70 years.
Government has failed the local community. What can I say. Chicago is definitely a train wreck. Now check out Minneapolis and Seattle.
Police brutality is an issue. But Local government is an enormous issue. Wait until they defund the police force in Seattle or Minneapolis,
then the police willl be out of it completely and murder and crime will skyrocket.

Earlier you asked why all the outrage about the police when black on black crime is such a problem. Now you are trying to make this a partisan thing. It's not partisan. Instead of talking about solutions to the problem, you keep posting "Another wing-nut race baiter" type comments. Who cares? Don't take the bait if you don't like it. It seems we have a portion of people in the county that are confronted with: blacks are shot and jailed disproportionately; impoverished disproportionately; and not as well educated. To which they respond - stop race baiting, what about black on black violence, don't break stuff, don't kneel during my football game, or it is all the other side's fault. Treating people equally is not a partisan issue. Does it make you feel good to come up with excuses for why the system shouldn't change?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: orthopa on June 26, 2020, 01:10:58 PM

This shouldn't be a right vs left thing. I agree the country doesn't have to be perfect to be great, but we have big minority saying the status quo is not working for them. Surely trying for better is preferable to accepting the status quo?

Once again Ross - you are getting to the heart of the matter - What is the right approach for minorities? Why should they accept the status quo?

My answer: They shouldn't. There is much they can do to "lift" themselves. But this narrative doesn't sell with the race-baiters who continually
tell the minorities they are "victims". It's the old "oppressor/oppressed" argument. Every group is a victim.

The Brookings Institute has 3 broad answers for minorities to "lift" themselves out of poverty:

1-  Finish High School
2-  Get a Full Time Job
3-  Don't have children before you are married

Brookings conclusion: IF you do these 3 things, there is a very small chance that you live in poverty.

My question to you:  Does this make sense to you?  Did this work for you?  Did your parents influence your development in a positive way?

This is a simple yet powerful formula. I don't not hear this from Black Lives Matter or losers like Al Sharpton, Maxine Waters, Jemelle Harris, Farrakhan, etc.    and all the others peddling "victimhood" to the black community.

The answer is not destruction of their own neighborhoods and all that is good in this country.

Police brutality and racism is not acceptable and that has been expressed by individuals on both sides of the discussion.

Its very hard to control other people actions, much easier to control your own. We live in a society where most people understand what behavior is rewarded vs what is not. Although most people are not intimately familiar with the penal code it would be assumed most know basic right and wrong. Somehow though repetitive outcomes made by certain populations based on personal decisions are in some way blamed on others?

I think a lot of the reason why "nothing changes" is because the group that needs to change doesn't. I would point to data on fatherless black children, high school graduation rates in predominately black taught/run schools, and birth rates in unmarried young women as posted above. The impact of these activities are like an anchor on your progress in life. Black people disproportionaley pick up these anchors. If a white/Hispanic/Chinese etc etc person acts the same the outcome will be similar.

Black communities are going to struggle until they succumb to the fact that, doing well in school, not doing drugs, not getting arrested, not joining gangs, etc, etc is advancing themselves not "acting white". Like I posted earlier they don't want to be "cornball brothers". The problem is we live in a society that rewards acting like a "cornball brother". Its proof positive that is not palatable to many people of color. We have an input and an outcome. Same goes for Whites/Hispanics who also choose to not participate in "white" activities as outline by Obama.

Most arguing for inequality quickly go silent on these issues. I'm not quite sure why. Is it offensive to someone to admit that changing their own behavior would be very beneficial?

What I also find interesting is that people of all colors defend and understand those who act in a polar opposite fashion. Said person understands right/wrong and follows the law knowing the benefits of that behavior but for some reason understands when another doesn't and makes excuses for it/demand change. If your so sympathetic, why do you follow the rules then?

The change that would come about in advancement of black people from what the Brookings Institute discussed would be far greater then a crowd of while people kneeling promising to not be racist.  Lets all be honest. If your posting on this board there is a very good chance you know what behavior is rewarded and have complied. When will it become acceptable to demand that of others instead of making excuses?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 26, 2020, 01:22:05 PM
I would argue that the Brookings Institute checklist is a pretty good indicator of ones success or lack there of, for any person, race, gender, or whatever. There's a lot of life decisions one can make. But there are only a few that you absolutely need to get right. Definitely 1/2...3 is a little less important, but still a huge help if you can hit that one too.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 26, 2020, 01:45:22 PM
I think the protests and blm is more than just the police.  You want them to fix their own problems before asking for help and you don't like the way they are asking.

Have you ever thought that the individuals involved in this black on black crime is a small minority of the community?  Should the people playing by the rules be penalized because they look like one of those above individuals?


Dude I have no problem with them asking for help. None. Rioting, looting, injuring and killing people is not in that book. Of course I don't like
the way they are asking. It's not exactly a small minority. It's happening all over the country.

In respect to Chicago - you have a 1 party town that has been totally controlled and administered by the Democratic Party for 70 years.
Government has failed the local community. What can I say. Chicago is definitely a train wreck. Now check out Minneapolis and Seattle.
Police brutality is an issue. But Local government is an enormous issue. Wait until they defund the police force in Seattle or Minneapolis,
then the police willl be out of it completely and murder and crime will skyrocket.

Earlier you asked why all the outrage about the police when black on black crime is such a problem. Now you are trying to make this a partisan thing. It's not partisan. Instead of talking about solutions to the problem, you keep posting "Another wing-nut race baiter" type comments. Who cares? Don't take the bait if you don't like it. It seems we have a portion of people in the county that are confronted with: blacks are shot and jailed disproportionately; impoverished disproportionately; and not as well educated. To which they respond - stop race baiting, what about black on black violence, don't break stuff, don't kneel during my football game, or it is all the other side's fault. Treating people equally is not a partisan issue. Does it make you feel good to come up with excuses for why the system shouldn't change?

Dude - I gave you my solutions when you asked for them. You just choose to ignore them - so not my problem if you don't like it.
I could care less about kneeling - so don't make stuff up already.  You don't like my posts - not my problem when you selectively ignore them.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 26, 2020, 01:47:15 PM
I would argue that the Brookings Institute checklist is a pretty good indicator of ones success or lack there of, for any person, race, gender, or whatever. There's a lot of life decisions one can make. But there are only a few that you absolutely need to get right. Definitely 1/2...3 is a little less important, but still a huge help if you can hit that one too.

That is not the answer Ross wants to hear - so don't even go there. Some people are just disingenuous.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on June 26, 2020, 08:53:24 PM
What does the brookings institute have to do with preventing police brutality and bias?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rukawa on June 26, 2020, 10:54:49 PM
It seems like two theories are proposed for disparate outcomes of black people vs whites. One theory is that its due to the culture and choices of black people and the other is that its due systematic racism. Thomas Sowell rightly states that if you want to test a theory, in principle there should be some empirical test or data that should be able to distinguish between them.

In this case the way to distinguish to look at two groups of black people that have are indistinguishable in appearence but have different culture and behaviour due to different histories and environmental influences. The proper group to look at is black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean.

So my question of those who believe black culture is causal is whether you would agree that there is police bias if it were shown that black immigrants were shot as often as black natives in the same neighbourhoods. And a similar question goes out to liberals...if it were shown that African immigrants were shot less than black natives and for sake of argument even less than white natives would you then agree that systematic racial discrimination could not be an explanation of the racial difference in police shootings.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 27, 2020, 05:43:59 AM
Excellent piece here on Black Lives Matter by a black man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z572XopBVFc

Just listen to the first 2 minutes.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Spekulatius on June 27, 2020, 08:45:20 AM
Number of Chicago residents killed by gunfire this past weekend -  18
Number of Chicago residents shot and killed in 2019                  - 492

So no Black Lives Matter Protest for those killed this weekend in Chicago. Too bad isn't it?

IS that really systemic racism among the police?
Why no outrage over the black on black killings?

The crime numbers in Chicago are simply mind boggling. It seems like some neighborhoods in Chicago are more dangerous than Bagdad was during the peak of insurgency. It’s a tragedy. I can’t Imagine what it must feel like to live there.

Then a few blocks away from these hotspots you are basically in a suburban utopia. When I moved to the US, I  don’t understand why everyone first ask you where you live. it took me a while to find out, that a few blocks can make the difference between living in great upper class neighborhood and a gang war zone basically.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 27, 2020, 01:46:38 PM
Chicago is a dangerous place - highly segregated - you don't go to the South or West side - ever.
And, yes, .... you are correct, Chicago is more dangerous than Iraq or Afghanistan..

The current mayor is a disaster and the exodus from the city will accelerate.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trumps-letter-governor-illinois-mayor-chicago/

June 8, 2020, “18 murders in 24 hours: Inside the most violent day in 60 years in Chicago,”

85 people were shot and 24 killed the previous weekend, the most in modern history in Chicago.”

The article recounts the following horrors:

A hardworking father killed.

A West Side high school student murdered.

A college freshman who hoped to become a correctional officer, gunned down.


18 people killed Sunday, May 31, the single most violent day in Chicago in six decades.

Violence and death, which are disproportionately harming young African Americans, are tragic and unacceptable, particularly on such a shocking scale. According to the Chicago Sun Times, “shootings across the City increased by 71 percent last month,” and just this past weekend 102 people were shot in the city’s most violent weekend of the year.  A 3-year old toddler was killed.  More Americans have been killed in Chicago than in combat zones of Afghanistan and Iraq combined since September 11, 2001,


Yet - not a peep from Black Lives Matter crowd or Jesse Jackson or Louis Farrakhan -- why????   ... doesn't serve their agenda.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cherzeca on June 27, 2020, 04:28:54 PM
I have come across the term "race hustling", which I find illuminating. 

consider the differences between MLK and Sharpton.  hence the concept race hustling.  the notion is that race has become a tool rather than an end objective, and BLM/antifa have harnessed race to hustle an agenda...and that agenda is something that MLK would not be familiar with.

now, I dont mean to provoke anyone or anything other than thought.  but I have lived through the 60s and with god's good grace will do so through the 20s, and I dont see the former reaching any just culmination in what's going on now.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 27, 2020, 05:41:39 PM
I have come across the term "race hustling", which I find illuminating. 

consider the differences between MLK and Sharpton.  hence the concept race hustling.  the notion is that race has become a tool rather than an end objective, and BLM/antifa have harnessed race to hustle an agenda...and that agenda is something that MLK would not be familiar with.

now, I dont mean to provoke anyone or anything other than thought.  but I have lived through the 60s and with god's good grace will do so through the 20s, and I dont see the former reaching any just culmination in what's going on now.
MLK was probably the biggest race hustler there ever was. He didn't want blacks to protest freely. He wanted blacks to be beaten up so he could give speeches. That's how he got the Civil Rights Act. They wish they had a race hustler with MLK's skills today.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 27, 2020, 05:56:32 PM
I have come across the term "race hustling", which I find illuminating. 

consider the differences between MLK and Sharpton.  hence the concept race hustling.  the notion is that race has become a tool rather than an end objective, and BLM/antifa have harnessed race to hustle an agenda...and that agenda is something that MLK would not be familiar with.

now, I dont mean to provoke anyone or anything other than thought.  but I have lived through the 60s and with god's good grace will do so through the 20s, and I dont see the former reaching any just culmination in what's going on now.
MLK was probably the biggest race hustler there ever was. He didn't want blacks to protest freely. He wanted blacks to be beaten up so he could give speeches. That's how he got the Civil Rights Act. They wish they had a race hustler with MLK's skills today.

Congratulations RB --- Spoken with true hatred for the greatest civil rights leader of our time.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 27, 2020, 06:11:08 PM
I have come across the term "race hustling", which I find illuminating. 

consider the differences between MLK and Sharpton.  hence the concept race hustling.  the notion is that race has become a tool rather than an end objective, and BLM/antifa have harnessed race to hustle an agenda...and that agenda is something that MLK would not be familiar with.

now, I dont mean to provoke anyone or anything other than thought.  but I have lived through the 60s and with god's good grace will do so through the 20s, and I dont see the former reaching any just culmination in what's going on now.


When the textbook definition of "Race Hustler" is written, they'll need to include this clip of Al Sharpton, as narrated by a black man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYifp_SjzhQ



Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 27, 2020, 06:22:25 PM
I have come across the term "race hustling", which I find illuminating. 

consider the differences between MLK and Sharpton.  hence the concept race hustling.  the notion is that race has become a tool rather than an end objective, and BLM/antifa have harnessed race to hustle an agenda...and that agenda is something that MLK would not be familiar with.

now, I dont mean to provoke anyone or anything other than thought.  but I have lived through the 60s and with god's good grace will do so through the 20s, and I dont see the former reaching any just culmination in what's going on now.
MLK was probably the biggest race hustler there ever was. He didn't want blacks to protest freely. He wanted blacks to be beaten up so he could give speeches. That's how he got the Civil Rights Act. They wish they had a race hustler with MLK's skills today.

Congratulations RB --- Spoken with true hatred for the greatest civil rights leader of our time.
Yep, hater of MLK. That's me  ::). Maybe learn some history.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: meiroy on June 27, 2020, 07:31:21 PM


If you are someone who supports Trump and his enablers, this seems like the last chance to take a good look, do a 180, and say whatever you need to say to make yourself look reasonable, and stop it. Just stop it.

Several years from now, when a lot more is going to come out, no one is going to care or accept that you supported this administration because of "fewer taxes!" or whatever else.  You will be in the wrong, for the rest of your life.

Do the right thing. It's not too late.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 28, 2020, 04:47:42 AM
Young black man describes his evolution from hardcore liberal Democrat (2X Obama voter) to conservative principles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nRhR5U2H6Q

Think for yourselves.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LongHaul on June 28, 2020, 09:41:30 AM
Different side of documentary on BLM
Definitely worth a watch for a diversity of viewpoints

Michelle Malkin Investigates: Black Lives Matter
https://youtu.be/7ljXduxcquM
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LongHaul on June 28, 2020, 10:01:04 AM
Young black man describes his evolution from hardcore liberal Democrat (2X Obama voter) to conservative principles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nRhR5U2H6Q

Think for yourselves.

He has a lot of videos.  Thx for posting.

This was one a different perspective too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88-dV9K_cHE
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 28, 2020, 10:08:21 AM


If you are someone who supports Trump and his enablers, this seems like the last chance to take a good look, do a 180, and say whatever you need to say to make yourself look reasonable, and stop it. Just stop it.

Several years from now, when a lot more is going to come out, no one is going to care or accept that you supported this administration because of "fewer taxes!" or whatever else.  You will be in the wrong, for the rest of your life.

Do the right thing. It's not too late.

Well, I supported Obama and his enablers. I did take a good look, so I certainly won't be voting for Biden.

You said we might support this administration "because of fewer taxes or whatever else." Oh, I wouldn't be voting for Trump because of lower taxes (I actually disagree with him on that). But, I would be voting against Biden for what the left represents.

I surmise that perhaps you are the one who needs to "take a good look." And yes, I plan on "doing the right thing."
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 28, 2020, 10:39:23 AM
Seriously? Anyone who thinks Biden, Obama, or just about anyone else on the whole planet could f**k up running the country worse than Trump, must have been living under a rock for the past three years.

Just the gross mishandling of Covid-19 situation alone should be enough for anyone with half a clue to understand that Trump is so far out of his depth that he is totally unfit for the office.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 28, 2020, 11:33:53 AM
Seriously? Anyone who thinks Biden, Obama, or just about anyone else on the whole planet could f**k up running the country worse than Trump, must have been living under a rock for the past three years.

No - it's not that Cwericb - it's the political corruption that Obama undertook while in office. Amazing level of corruption.
IRS targeting scandal, gun running in Mexico, spying on reporters and political opponents, unmasking hundreds of American citizens.
And that is just the corruption.

Then, instead of being a good boy, and honoring the tradition of "Peaceful Transfer of Power" - Obama unleashed Comey, Brennan, etc, etc
to sabotage and frame an incoming President with a made up Russia Hoax to fuck over the American Electorate.

Trump being elected is Obama's worst nightmare- as now his legacy will be one of Chicago-style corruption, in addition to being the "Great Divider"

And of course, his enabler, Biden participated and profited mightly - just ask Hunter!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 28, 2020, 12:00:40 PM
Seriously? Anyone who thinks Biden, Obama, or just about anyone else on the whole planet could f**k up running the country worse than Trump, must have been living under a rock for the past three years.

Just the gross mishandling of Covid-19 situation alone should be enough for anyone with half a clue to understand that Trump is so far out of his depth that he is totally unfit for the office.


Well, Obama's failed policies led to Trump, so I'm not so sure Obama is better.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 28, 2020, 12:21:56 PM
Young black man describes his evolution from hardcore liberal Democrat (2X Obama voter) to conservative principles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nRhR5U2H6Q

Think for yourselves.

He has a lot of videos.  Thx for posting.

This was one a different perspective too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88-dV9K_cHE

Awesome - thanks!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cwericb on June 28, 2020, 12:31:50 PM
"No - it's not that Cwericb - it's the political corruption that Obama undertook while in office. Amazing level of corruption.
IRS targeting scandal, gun running in Mexico, spying on reporters and political opponents, unmasking hundreds of American citizens."


I understand your point, but saying “unmasking hundreds of American citizens” is a poor choice of words considering Trump’s politicizing the wearing of masks in the face of the worst pandemic the US has ever experienced and being spread in part due to Trump’s refusal to set an example while masks could save people from dying.

"And that is just the corruption."

How much of that has been proven? And of what has been exposed, like the IRS scandal, there is no excuse for it at all. But in terms of corruption do you really  believe Trump was not totally corrupt both before and after taking office? There has never been a president with Trump’s level of corruption. I will say one thing, Trump is a master of hiding his misdeeds. But wouldn't it be interesting to see his tax records. But producing those was just one more lie for suckers.

"Then, instead of being a good boy, and honoring the tradition of "Peaceful Transfer of Power" - Obama unleashed Comey, Brennan, etc, etc to sabotage and frame an incoming President with a made up Russia Hoax to fuck over the American Electorate".

Well if you still believe Trump’s hoax claims, you are not looking at the situation with an open mind. Just because Trump labels any move to expose him a “hoax” doesn’t make it so. Do you think Bolton’s book is a hoax, what about what the dozen or so other high level staff that have quit or been fired, what about what they have said and written? What about the bipartisan senate report that backed the intel community assessment that Russia interfered to help Trump in 2016 election?
 Are you comfortable with a president who has tried to cozy up to Russia, China, North Korea? Every one of them sucked him in and have been laughing at the US ever since. Are you comfortable with him distancing the US from virtually every one of America's allies? How about the great job he has done with the Coronavirus?

"Trump being elected is Obama's worst nightmare- as now his legacy will be one of Chicago-style corruption, in addition to being the "Great Divider""

And you really think Trump is trying to unify the US?

"And of course, his enabler, Biden participated and profited mightly - just ask Hunter!"

As far as I know Hunter Biden is not in government nor is he running for any position.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 28, 2020, 12:49:27 PM
A+ documentary on BLM
Definitely worth a watch for a diversity of viewpoints

Michelle Malkin Investigates: Black Lives Matter
https://youtu.be/7ljXduxcquM

That is really a great BLM documentary, especially considering everything that has come to pass in 3 years.
Thanks
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: rb on June 28, 2020, 01:39:46 PM


If you are someone who supports Trump and his enablers, this seems like the last chance to take a good look, do a 180, and say whatever you need to say to make yourself look reasonable, and stop it. Just stop it.

Several years from now, when a lot more is going to come out, no one is going to care or accept that you supported this administration because of "fewer taxes!" or whatever else.  You will be in the wrong, for the rest of your life.

Do the right thing. It's not too late.

Well, I supported Obama and his enablers. I did take a good look, so I certainly won't be voting for Biden.

You said we might support this administration "because of fewer taxes or whatever else." Oh, I wouldn't be voting for Trump because of lower taxes (I actually disagree with him on that). But, I would be voting against Biden for what the left represents.

I surmise that perhaps you are the one who needs to "take a good look." And yes, I plan on "doing the right thing."
Since you have such a big problem with what "the left" represents, let me ask you a quick question:

When you were all Gung-Ho for Bernie Sanders, which side of the political spectrum did you think he represented?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 28, 2020, 01:46:10 PM
Violence in Chicago this weekend, and it's not over yet:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/four-children-including-1-year-old-killed-in-chicago-as-violence-spikes-in-city

46 shot
7 killed on Saturday. - including a 1 yr old, 10 yr old and 17 yr old. This week's victims also included a 5 yr old and 9 yr old.

Where is Black Lives Matter??? 

Nowhere to be found in the Utopia created and maintained by the Democratic Party.

But yeah, let's defund the police...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: stahleyp on June 28, 2020, 03:29:12 PM


If you are someone who supports Trump and his enablers, this seems like the last chance to take a good look, do a 180, and say whatever you need to say to make yourself look reasonable, and stop it. Just stop it.

Several years from now, when a lot more is going to come out, no one is going to care or accept that you supported this administration because of "fewer taxes!" or whatever else.  You will be in the wrong, for the rest of your life.

Do the right thing. It's not too late.

Well, I supported Obama and his enablers. I did take a good look, so I certainly won't be voting for Biden.

You said we might support this administration "because of fewer taxes or whatever else." Oh, I wouldn't be voting for Trump because of lower taxes (I actually disagree with him on that). But, I would be voting against Biden for what the left represents.

I surmise that perhaps you are the one who needs to "take a good look." And yes, I plan on "doing the right thing."
Since you have such a big problem with what "the left" represents, let me ask you a quick question:

When you were all Gung-Ho for Bernie Sanders, which side of the political spectrum did you think he represented?

He's certainly on the left. I was dumb!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 29, 2020, 09:57:28 AM
So much for Black Lives Matter:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicago-man-killed-2-teens-asked-how-tall-he-report

They are not going to protest this one, as it is a weekly/daily occurrence in Chicago.
Horrible story.

Where is Black Lives Matter, Al Sharpton, Maxine Watters, etc?

But let's defund the police...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 29, 2020, 07:49:49 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/children-shot-dead-wounded-one-week-in-chicago

3 children shot dead, another 2 wounded in the crossfire over just 1 week in Chicago

Where is that wonderful organization Black Lives Matter anyway?

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Gregmal on June 30, 2020, 12:04:19 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/children-shot-dead-wounded-one-week-in-chicago

3 children shot dead, another 2 wounded in the crossfire over just 1 week in Chicago

Where is that wonderful organization Black Lives Matter anyway?

Getting its awards from De Blasio and the NBA...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on June 30, 2020, 07:03:40 AM
Hilarious summary of homeowners protecting themselves from that disgusting movement "Black Lives Matter":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByasOe6LIAI
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on July 01, 2020, 04:16:45 AM
Hardcore Democrat and Black Civil Rights attorney, Leo Terrell, discuss Black Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zURUmAFqUqY&t=333s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IYN7Gs4oQQ

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on July 02, 2020, 11:21:29 AM
McCarthyism

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/umass-nursing-dean-fired-saying-everyones-life-matters

Zero Hedge's article had the most detail about the incident.

Q: Is firing people for things like this more or less likely to make the fired individual racist? 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on July 02, 2020, 03:07:49 PM
McCarthyism

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/umass-nursing-dean-fired-saying-everyones-life-matters

Zero Hedge's article had the most detail about the incident.

Q: Is firing people for things like this more or less likely to make the fired individual racist?

it's clearly a double standard for the LEFT.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on July 02, 2020, 04:22:01 PM
“ Q: Is firing people for things like this more or less likely to make the fired individual racist? ”

Non sequitur
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Castanza on July 02, 2020, 05:38:33 PM
“ Q: Is firing people for things like this more or less likely to make the fired individual racist? ”

Non sequitur

Not even close...
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: cubsfan on July 03, 2020, 07:03:23 AM
Beautiful young black women comments on Black Lives Matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1IoqsFuNec

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on July 05, 2020, 06:02:22 PM
This is the type of stuff that is unconscionable:

http://www.oudaily.com/news/norman-police-department-officers-under-investigation-after-allegedly-releasing-city-councilmembers-address/article_605eb54e-bd3e-11ea-a035-fb43cd2ac089.html

The backstory is that the Normon, OK city council cut agreed 8-1 to cut police funding by $865k in the wake of Alex Scott's proposal to cut $4.5M of the department's funding.

Two weeks later a Normon PD "master police officer" posted Scott's address to social media. That night her duplex is broken into and her neighbor was assaulted and raped. Scott believes she was the intended target.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on July 05, 2020, 07:31:31 PM
It is but it happens all the time from people on the left too.  You just ignore it until it hits your cause.

People are getting fired because they retweet trump. You guys are trying to impose your ideology on the right and if we don't go along you take out our careers.

One time it happens back to your side and finally it's an issue.

By the way the reason Chaz was taken down was a far left city councillor revealed the mayor's address. The resulting protests at her home made her drop the hammer.

Nothing but a double standard from the progressives. You need to realize the nut job far left will turn on you too eventually. 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: LC on July 05, 2020, 07:48:32 PM
Quote
People are getting fired because they retweet trump. You guys are trying to impose your ideology on the right and if we don't go along you take out our careers.
Thank you for making my point. What you described is exactly what happened. An elected city council voted to cut police funding, in response to widespread cases of police misbehavior. This funding cut would perhaps be, as you say, "taking their careers".

And in response, someone was raped.

Quote
One time it happens back to your side and finally it's an issue.
One time? Do I need to post the video list of police excessive force, again? For the third time?

Quote
Nothing but a double standard from the progressives.
Police forces are funded by taxpayer (left and right) dollars. This is one of the reasons they are held to a higher bar.

There is no double standard here, you are conflating political bias with police brutality.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: no_free_lunch on July 05, 2020, 08:46:02 PM
Police officers should be held to an equal standard as everyone else.

If somebody running a government organization fires someone over their political leaning that's more than bias. That's political extortion.

Some random video with no context, I don't know , its not an argument.