Author Topic: Just in case anyone forgot  (Read 24633 times)

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #290 on: December 06, 2019, 04:58:43 PM »
Anything to rationalize it away, eh cobadfek?

It's pretty simple: if you don't want children used as an argument - then don't let children die under your care.

Quote
While a log kept by officers at the McAllen detention center in Texas says that Carlos, born in Guatemala, was given wellness checks three times over the course of four hours during the overnight, the video footage reveals that his seemingly lifeless body remained where it was—on the floor by the cell's toilet—from approximately 1:30am until Carlos' cellmate discovers him there after waking up past 6:00am. Notably, while the local police say the obtained the video footage from CBP, it contains a four-hour gap that the CBP has still not explained even as they refuse to hand over or acknowledge the existence of a complete recording of the night.

The only suspended judgement I can see is from the Trump administration's policy decision to split up children from their parents and cage them in separate, unsanitary, and inhumane conditions and under the un-incentivized supervision of CPB officers who (1) do not have the resources to administer proper care and (2) in this case seem to be doctoring their logs and refusing to turn over evidence of their own incompetence/negligence.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 09:01:50 AM by LC »
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #291 on: December 06, 2019, 05:00:18 PM »
Out of sight, out of mind I guess  :-[

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/12/05/impeach-trump-video-shows-final-hours-teens-horrible-death-us-immigration-detention

Can you explain the big deal here, Mr. Morality is Subjective?

Letting children die is bad.

Let me go find RK's post where he explains your broken-record objection better than I can.

Ah, here's the quote: "You can't imagine where morality comes from if not from god, so your lack of imagination trumps everything else and you win!"
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 05:05:31 PM by LC »
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #292 on: December 06, 2019, 05:33:20 PM »
Out of sight, out of mind I guess  :-[

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/12/05/impeach-trump-video-shows-final-hours-teens-horrible-death-us-immigration-detention

Can you explain the big deal here, Mr. Morality is Subjective?

Letting children die is bad.

Let me go find RK's post where he explains your broken-record objection better than I can.

Ah, here's the quote: "You can't imagine where morality comes from if not from god, so your lack of imagination trumps everything else and you win!"

If atheism is true, morality probably comes from evolution. If it comes from evolution, there is no need to think that children dying is "bad." It's something that we all experience. You are just being tricked by your evolutionary instincts to thinking the situation is worse than the underlying reality.
Paul

cobafdek

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #293 on: December 06, 2019, 07:02:02 PM »
Anything to rationalize it away, eh cubsfan?

It's pretty simple: if you don't want children used as an argument - then don't let children die under your care.

There is no logical connection between premise ("if you don't want children used as an argument") and conclusion ("then don't let children die under your care").

Pure fallacy.  Pure pedophrasty.  (And a scam, as Taleb says.)

Time to delete this entire thread before you further embarrass yourself.


LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #294 on: December 06, 2019, 07:23:19 PM »
The Trump administration has a policy of separating children from parents, housing those children in unsafe conditions, and it is leading to their deaths.

And you claim this is an invalid argument?

The only one being embarrassed is yourself.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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cobafdek

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #295 on: December 06, 2019, 10:17:53 PM »
It's pretty simple: if you don't want children used as an argument - then don't let children die under your care.

The Trump administration has a policy of separating children from parents, housing those children in unsafe conditions, and it is leading to their deaths.

And you claim this is an invalid argument?

A valid argument would be true in the contrapositive form.  "If you don't want children used as an argument, then don't let children die under your care," restated in the contrapositive, says "If I let children die under my care, then I want children used as an argument."  This is invalid, ABSURD, reasoning.

Pure appeal to emotion (argumentum ad misericordiam - see List of Fallacies).  Pure fallacy.  Pure pedophrasty.  Scam.





« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 11:04:25 PM by cobafdek »

stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #296 on: December 07, 2019, 08:00:48 AM »
The Trump administration has a policy of separating children from parents, housing those children in unsafe conditions, and it is leading to their deaths.

And you claim this is an invalid argument?

The only one being embarrassed is yourself.

You should be embarrassed by your irrationality.  ;)

Trump has his subjective morality and you have yours. Neither is more "right" than the other. Why can't you just admit this?

Paul

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #297 on: December 07, 2019, 09:21:53 AM »
It's pretty simple: if you don't want children used as an argument - then don't let children die under your care.

The Trump administration has a policy of separating children from parents, housing those children in unsafe conditions, and it is leading to their deaths.

And you claim this is an invalid argument?

A valid argument would be true in the contrapositive form.  "If you don't want children used as an argument, then don't let children die under your care," restated in the contrapositive, says "If I let children die under my care, then I want children used as an argument." 
No, you are building a strawman because you'd rather rationalize away the situation.

If you want to play logic 101 we can do that: "If you should let children die under your care, then you don't care that children are used as an opposing argument."

But again, it seems you'd rather play silly games than address the reality of an inhumane policy.
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cobafdek

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #298 on: December 07, 2019, 11:34:41 AM »
Your sentiment and sympathy for true victims is laudable (not to mention shared by EVERYONE).

But you are not arguing a case logically.  You are expressing an emotion.


LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #299 on: December 07, 2019, 01:27:30 PM »
Let's see..

We have CBP which, despite doubling in manpower and budget, is now almost 33% less efficient than in 2000 (the record high of immigrants @ 1.6M):

Quote
The number of Border Patrol agents grew from 9,212 agents in 2000 to 12,349 in 2006, meaning each agent, on average, was responsible for between 81 and 173 apprehensions per year. Now, however, there are 19,555 Border Patrol agents, responsible for 32 apprehensions a year per agent. CBP’s budget has also more than doubled since 2006, growing from $7.1 billion in 2006 to $16.69 billion this year.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/dhss-own-statistics-show-it-lying-about-border

And is furthermore shutting down legal ports of entry for asylum seekers:

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These children and families should be able to apply for asylum at a port of entry but are prevented from doing so by the administration’s “metering” and “remain in Mexico” policies, in which agents force people to wait in Mexico for immigration proceedings in the United States.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/dhss-own-statistics-show-it-lying-about-border

Which is forcing immigrants to border cross illegally to flee Mexico:

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more than 90 percent said they did not feel safe in Mexico. Forty-six percent said that they or their child experienced “at least one type of harm” agentswhile in Mexico, including robbery, attempted robbery, threats, physical harm, kidnapping or attempted kidnapping, and sexual assault. Some 38 percent reported being mistreated by Mexican police.

So by turning back families unlawfully, the administration forces asylum seekers to cross the border elsewhere, and its own data show the shift. As CBP  shut down access at ports of entry in May 2018, the number of migrants processed at ports began to fall, and the numbers crossing in between ports began to rise.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/dhss-own-statistics-show-it-lying-about-border


Where they are apprehended and are then held in dangerously overcrowded conditions:

Quote
A surprise visit at five Border Patrol facilities in Texas by a government watchdog group found that immigrants were being detained in dangerous, overcrowded standing room–only cells, with some standing on toilets to get breathing space.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/adolfoflores/watchdog-report-migrants-overcrowded-el-paso

Where children under 10 years old are taking care of toddlers:

Quote
[“A Border Patrol agent came in our room with a 2-year-old boy and asked us, ‘Who wants to take care of this little boy?’ Another girl said she would take care of him, but she lost interest after a few hours and so I started taking care of him yesterday,” one of the girls said in an interview with attorneys.

https://apnews.com/46da2dbe04f54adbb875cfbc06bbc615

Under the care of CBP officers who have a history of abuse and neglect:

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In 2014, the ACLU Border Litigation Project and partner organizations filed an administrative complaint with the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) on behalf of 116 children who had reported abuse while in U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) custody. These complaints detailed, for example, denial of medical care; verbal threats; physical and sexual abuse; and inhumane detention conditions.

https://www.aclusandiego.org/cbp-child-abuse-foia/

With an administration which argues it is not obliged to even provide the most basic sanitary materials:

Quote
The Trump administration this week told a panel of federal judges that the government need not provide soap or toothbrushes to migrant children it apprehends, despite a 1997 settlement agreement requiring it to hold detainees in “safe and sanitary” facilities.

Justice Department attorney Sarah Fabian also argued in front of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco that the government is legally allowed to make kids to sleep on concrete floors in cold and overcrowded cells.

https://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/archives/2019/06/20/trump-administration-tells-federal-judges-that-it-shouldnt-be-required-to-provide-toothbrushes-or-soap-to-detained-migrant-children


Which for the first time in decades is now causing the deaths of these children:

Quote
At least seven children are known to have died in immigration custody since last year, after almost a decade in which no child reportedly died while in the custody of U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children-dying-u-s-custody-n1010316?fbclid=IwAR38n79Vu1jBLejqEPL8NCeCJ7qaGinN2TJOuTfEkVI1BKJDyISX3Jee7Rs



But apparently this is not a logical argument and I'm only expressing an emotion.

This is pretty damn evil, it's a policy which is exacerbated by Trump, and is a political effort to appeal to the "racist idiot" part of his voting base. How anyone can support this feces stain of a President is beyond me.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 01:40:26 PM by LC »
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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