Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: Gregmal on September 23, 2020, 02:43:14 PM

Title: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 23, 2020, 02:43:14 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/breonna-taylor-case-public-outraged-185700167.html


Yes, that's right. All these scholars and brilliant legal minds with in depth knowledge of the evidence express dismay and outrage over the uninformed and ill advised, not to mention racist and biased grand jury decision. Or maybe they have no clue what justice is and will never be happy unless THEY get what THEY want....
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 23, 2020, 03:06:08 PM
More legal experts weighing in

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/29953463/one-officer-indicted-grand-jury-breonna-taylor-killing
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 23, 2020, 04:39:13 PM
Many, many more experts weigh in.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/23/celebrities-athletes-react-to-breonna-taylor-verdict/
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: LC on September 23, 2020, 06:38:28 PM
People demand justice, Greg demands more excuses for police who kill innocent civilians minding their own business! “Biased jury” you must be kidding.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: lnofeisone on September 23, 2020, 06:59:51 PM
People demand justice, Greg demands more excuses for police who kill innocent civilians minding their own business! “Biased jury” you must be kidding.

LC - I'll preface this that the shooting was a tragedy and coalescence of several bad decisions but calling BT innocent civilian is a gross oversimplification. Breonna was former ex of the drug dealer police was looking to round up (Jamarcus Glober) and gather further evidence. Police also has/had proof of her handling his money and possibly helping with drug movements (photos of suspicious USPS packages). This is the reason why they went to the apartment. While they had a no knock warrant, it looks like that wasn't used so imagine how this unfolded. Police knocks on the door and announce themselves, BT's bf discharges a weapon (though it looks like the first shot he made was to scare the cops off), police react and likely overract. Sadly, BT got caught in the crossfire. She definitely didn't deserve it but she was not an innocent civilian. 
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: LC on September 23, 2020, 07:37:08 PM
So first off I’ll ask you to bear with me as I co-mingle topics.

On another thread the argument is that Donald Trump is innocent of any election collusion because there is no evidence, charges, or conviction.

Now I am willing to accept that because yes, one is innocent until proven guilty, and I believe upholding that principle is more important than any one person (incl. the president).

So by the same standard, Breonna Taylor was an innocent victim.

And so what I am upset about is the grave inconsistency. For every Trump who the Senate refuses to hear impeachment testimony, there is a Breonna Taylor who is killed by cops with no justification and minimal if any repercussions.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 23, 2020, 11:23:57 PM
People demand justice, Greg demands more excuses for police who kill innocent civilians minding their own business! “Biased jury” you must be kidding.

LC - I'll preface this that the shooting was a tragedy and coalescence of several bad decisions but calling BT innocent civilian is a gross oversimplification. Breonna was former ex of the drug dealer police was looking to round up (Jamarcus Glober) and gather further evidence. Police also has/had proof of her handling his money and possibly helping with drug movements (photos of suspicious USPS packages). This is the reason why they went to the apartment. While they had a no knock warrant, it looks like that wasn't used so imagine how this unfolded. Police knocks on the door and announce themselves, BT's bf discharges a weapon (though it looks like the first shot he made was to scare the cops off), police react and likely overract. Sadly, BT got caught in the crossfire. She definitely didn't deserve it but she was not an innocent civilian.

Ding, ding, dong, we have an informed individual who got acquainted with the facts.

Compaing this, as LC does, with imaginary, DJT had a contract with Putin written only in his head, with....all the evidence in this case...including a drug dealer firing shots at cops...well, puts this in the bin of....hardly what the MSM is portraying it as.

Thanks, come again.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 23, 2020, 11:30:16 PM
More experts.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/23/heartbroken-tears-rage-in-louisville-streets-after-breonna-taylor-grand-jury-decision.html
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cwericb on September 24, 2020, 06:26:33 AM
I find it difficult to blame the police for this incident and it seems the Grand Jury likely got the situation correct. If I have this right, I believe their duty was not to find guilt or innocence, but to simply decide what charges were appropriate and if there was enough evidence to warrant a trial.

From what I have read, the police were executing a “no knock warrant” when they were fired upon from within the room. Returning fire would be a logical thing to do. However, there is certainly some blame involved in originating the warrant with an erroneous address.

Unfortunately for Taylor, she was perhaps just another victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Accidents do happen. This was a far cry from a cop smothering someone for 9 or 10 minutes and then being surprised at the result. 

Just one more incident in a country with too many guns.

JMHO
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: lnofeisone on September 24, 2020, 07:05:06 AM
So first off I’ll ask you to bear with me as I co-mingle topics.

On another thread the argument is that Donald Trump is innocent of any election collusion because there is no evidence, charges, or conviction.

Now I am willing to accept that because yes, one is innocent until proven guilty, and I believe upholding that principle is more important than any one person (incl. the president).

So by the same standard, Breonna Taylor was an innocent victim.

And so what I am upset about is the grave inconsistency. For every Trump who the Senate refuses to hear impeachment testimony, there is a Breonna Taylor who is killed by cops with no justification and minimal if any repercussions.

LC - you are right. Legally, BT is innocent until proven guilty. Same as DT is innocent until proven guilty. In reality, not guilty and innocent are not synonymous. Similarly, objectively judging outside of the legal realm, neither DT nor BT are innocent.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: lnofeisone on September 24, 2020, 07:08:26 AM
From what I have read, the police were executing a “no knock warrant” when they were fired upon from within the room. Returning fire would be a logical thing to do. However, there is certainly some blame involved in originating the warrant with an erroneous address.

Most recent writing indicates that the police had the no-knock warrant but they didn't execute it and they announced themselves. The address was also correct as BT's ex had close contact with her and there is some (very weak) evidence of her handling his money and potentially drugs/weapons.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cubsfan on September 24, 2020, 07:14:52 AM
From what I have read, the police were executing a “no knock warrant” when they were fired upon from within the room. Returning fire would be a logical thing to do. However, there is certainly some blame involved in originating the warrant with an erroneous address.

Most recent writing indicates that the police had the no-knock warrant but they didn't execute it and they announced themselves. The address was also correct as BT's ex had close contact with her and there is some (very weak) evidence of her handling his money and potentially drugs/weapons.

Remember, we are now operating in a new political world here in the good ole USA.

We have gone from protesting police brutality - full circle now - to black crimes against police.

Now, it's perfectly acceptable for blacks to disrespect the police, resist arrest, fight the police, tase the police, take their weapons, shoot at the police,
and kill the police. Only if you are black (or their agents). Then you have all the right in the world to riot, loot, burn and kill others.  All these are now perfectly
acceptable modes of behavior in the name of "social justice" and fighting "systematic racism".

Only in America, unfortunately. I may have to move to Canada with CW!
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 24, 2020, 07:35:22 AM
More experts! Including LaBron...who knew they taught law in high skool!

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29955593/los-angeles-lakers-denver-nuggets-players-say-breonna-taylor-ruling-grand-jury-enough
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cwericb on September 24, 2020, 08:28:24 AM
“Only in America, unfortunately. I may have to move to Canada with CW!”

Hey Cubs, you're welcome to join us. Just leave your guns at home and I suggest you get in line early.
So come on up .....  Or Down....
As 27 U.S. States, or parts thereof, are NORTH of the southern part of Canada.
And 13 states are ENTIRELY NORTH north of Canada's southernmost point of land.

Little geography lesson from the Great White North for the geographically challenged.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cubsfan on September 24, 2020, 08:39:15 AM
“Only in America, unfortunately. I may have to move to Canada with CW!”

Hey Cubs, you're welcome to join us. Just leave your guns at home and I suggest you get in line early.
So come on up .....  Or Down....
As 27 U.S. States, or parts thereof, are NORTH of the southern part of Canada.
And 13 states are ENTIRELY NORTH north of Canada's southernmost point of land.

Little geography lesson from the Great White North for the geographically challenged.

I just might do that!  I hate guns, and I love Canada.
Make sure you keep that border open!

If Biden wins, I am going to have to do something!
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: adesigar on September 24, 2020, 08:39:28 AM
People demand justice, Greg demands more excuses for police who kill innocent civilians minding their own business! “Biased jury” you must be kidding.

LC - I'll preface this that the shooting was a tragedy and coalescence of several bad decisions but calling BT innocent civilian is a gross oversimplification. Breonna was former ex of the drug dealer police was looking to round up (Jamarcus Glober) and gather further evidence. Police also has/had proof of her handling his money and possibly helping with drug movements (photos of suspicious USPS packages). This is the reason why they went to the apartment. While they had a no knock warrant, it looks like that wasn't used so imagine how this unfolded. Police knocks on the door and announce themselves, BT's bf discharges a weapon (though it looks like the first shot he made was to scare the cops off), police react and likely overract. Sadly, BT got caught in the crossfire. She definitely didn't deserve it but she was not an innocent civilian.

Ding, ding, dong, we have an informed individual who got acquainted with the facts.

Compaing this, as LC does, with imaginary, DJT had a contract with Putin written only in his head, with....all the evidence in this case...including a drug dealer firing shots at cops...well, puts this in the bin of....hardly what the MSM is portraying it as.

Thanks, come again.
The boyfriend who fired was her current boyfriend Kenneth Walker. The person who they were looking for who was a suspect was an ex-boyfriend Jamarcus Glover. You can’t even get the basic facts right. Also this is not the first, tenth or probably even hundredth time you have made posts with serious inaccuracies. Makes me wonder why?
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Ross812 on September 24, 2020, 09:37:31 AM
People demand justice, Greg demands more excuses for police who kill innocent civilians minding their own business! “Biased jury” you must be kidding.

LC - I'll preface this that the shooting was a tragedy and coalescence of several bad decisions but calling BT innocent civilian is a gross oversimplification. Breonna was former ex of the drug dealer police was looking to round up (Jamarcus Glober) and gather further evidence. Police also has/had proof of her handling his money and possibly helping with drug movements (photos of suspicious USPS packages). This is the reason why they went to the apartment. While they had a no knock warrant, it looks like that wasn't used so imagine how this unfolded. Police knocks on the door and announce themselves, BT's bf discharges a weapon (though it looks like the first shot he made was to scare the cops off), police react and likely overract. Sadly, BT got caught in the crossfire. She definitely didn't deserve it but she was not an innocent civilian.

Ding, ding, dong, we have an informed individual who got acquainted with the facts.

Compaing this, as LC does, with imaginary, DJT had a contract with Putin written only in his head, with....all the evidence in this case...including a drug dealer firing shots at cops...well, puts this in the bin of....hardly what the MSM is portraying it as.

Thanks, come again.
The boyfriend who fired was her current boyfriend Kenneth Walker. The person who they were looking for who was a suspect was an ex-boyfriend Jamarcus Glover. You can’t even get the basic facts right. Also this is not the first, tenth or probably even hundredth time you have made posts with serious inaccuracies. Makes me wonder why?

That is correct. Jamarcus Glover was arrested earlier that night prior to serving the warrant at Brianna Taylor's home. Kenneth Walker was in legal possession of the firearm. The police knew prior to serving the warrant at 1 am that Brianna and Kenneth were likely to be there and the main suspect was already in custody. The warrant was changed to a knock and announce warrant.

The police claim they knock and announced. Kenneth Walker claims they banged on the door and did not answer multiple yells asking who was there. The police used a battering ram and entered the apartment. Walker shot one of the officers in the leg; the officers returned fire hitting Brianna 6 times. The officers called for medical help for the officer, but Brianna received no medical attention until 20 minutes after the event.

Neighbors interviewed did not hear the police announce themselves. The plain clothes officers were not wearing body cameras. Louisville police claims interdiction officers are not required to wear cameras; though, the same officers involved in the incident had worn cameras in previous raids. There was also a uniformed officer present and his body camera footage was not turned over. The police report makes no mention entry was forced or that a suspect had been shot. This case wasn't big news when it happened. It blew up after her family made the case known.

The case is a classic word of the police against the word of the suspect and witnesses. Walker claimed he thought someone was breaking into the apartment and fired in self defense. Why is no body camera footage available? Why was a search warrant served at 1am? Why was a police report filed that neglected to mention a suspect had been killed or entry was forced?
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 24, 2020, 10:37:16 AM
Yes, my mistake In that case, he was more than justified firing at cops, indeed. Fire away!


From what I have read, the police were executing a “no knock warrant” when they were fired upon from within the room. Returning fire would be a logical thing to do. However, there is certainly some blame involved in originating the warrant with an erroneous address.

Most recent writing indicates that the police had the no-knock warrant but they didn't execute it and they announced themselves. The address was also correct as BT's ex had close contact with her and there is some (very weak) evidence of her handling his money and potentially drugs/weapons.

Remember, we are now operating in a new political world here in the good ole USA.

We have gone from protesting police brutality - full circle now - to black crimes against police.

Now, it's perfectly acceptable for blacks to disrespect the police, resist arrest, fight the police, tase the police, take their weapons, shoot at the police,
and kill the police.
Only if you are black (or their agents). Then you have all the right in the world to riot, loot, burn and kill others.  All these are now perfectly
acceptable modes of behavior in the name of "social justice" and fighting "systematic racism".

Only in America, unfortunately. I may have to move to Canada with CW!
.

Apparently.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: adesigar on September 24, 2020, 10:58:26 AM
Yes, my mistake In that case, he was more than justified firing at cops, indeed. Fire away!


From what I have read, the police were executing a “no knock warrant” when they were fired upon from within the room. Returning fire would be a logical thing to do. However, there is certainly some blame involved in originating the warrant with an erroneous address.

Most recent writing indicates that the police had the no-knock warrant but they didn't execute it and they announced themselves. The address was also correct as BT's ex had close contact with her and there is some (very weak) evidence of her handling his money and potentially drugs/weapons.

Remember, we are now operating in a new political world here in the good ole USA.

We have gone from protesting police brutality - full circle now - to black crimes against police.

Now, it's perfectly acceptable for blacks to disrespect the police, resist arrest, fight the police, tase the police, take their weapons, shoot at the police,
and kill the police.
Only if you are black (or their agents). Then you have all the right in the world to riot, loot, burn and kill others.  All these are now perfectly
acceptable modes of behavior in the name of "social justice" and fighting "systematic racism".

Only in America, unfortunately. I may have to move to Canada with CW!
.

Apparently.

No apparently according to you hypocrites the 2nd amendment does not apply to people of color. People of color are supposed to not defend themselves when someone breaks down their door in the middle of the night. 100 years later and how little some things have changed since the 1919s.


Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cwericb on September 24, 2020, 11:17:07 AM
adesigar

"Also this is not the first, tenth or probably even hundredth time you have made posts with serious inaccuracies."

Unfortunately Greg does this ALL the time and his favorite trick is to misquote other board members to make his points. I called him out on this as well yesterday.

It would seem that the dishonesty at the top of US politics is filtering down to CoBF. If you have to misquote and distort what others have to say to make your point, then obviously you don't have a point in the first place.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cubsfan on September 24, 2020, 02:03:57 PM
Yes, my mistake In that case, he was more than justified firing at cops, indeed. Fire away!


From what I have read, the police were executing a “no knock warrant” when they were fired upon from within the room. Returning fire would be a logical thing to do. However, there is certainly some blame involved in originating the warrant with an erroneous address.

Most recent writing indicates that the police had the no-knock warrant but they didn't execute it and they announced themselves. The address was also correct as BT's ex had close contact with her and there is some (very weak) evidence of her handling his money and potentially drugs/weapons.

Remember, we are now operating in a new political world here in the good ole USA.

We have gone from protesting police brutality - full circle now - to black crimes against police.

Now, it's perfectly acceptable for blacks to disrespect the police, resist arrest, fight the police, tase the police, take their weapons, shoot at the police,
and kill the police.
Only if you are black (or their agents). Then you have all the right in the world to riot, loot, burn and kill others.  All these are now perfectly
acceptable modes of behavior in the name of "social justice" and fighting "systematic racism".

Only in America, unfortunately. I may have to move to Canada with CW!
.

Apparently.

No apparently according to you hypocrites the 2nd amendment does not apply to people of color. People of color are supposed to not defend themselves when someone breaks down their door in the middle of the night. 100 years later and how little some things have changed since the 1919s.

Adesigar - try not to be an idiot if you can. I know it might be tough for you.

Who said anything about the 2nd amendment? Or people of color defending themselves?

Just say what you mean and call us racists.

It's a good look for you when you can not come up with a rational argument.
You learned well from your virtue signaling buddies on the LEFT - when all else fails - call them racists and bigots.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 24, 2020, 02:14:57 PM
I think all he was trying to say was that its OK for black people to shoot cops as long as they claim there wasn't a knock at the door(even if there was)....Dont be so harsh on him.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: adesigar on September 24, 2020, 02:58:40 PM
Yes, my mistake In that case, he was more than justified firing at cops, indeed. Fire away!


From what I have read, the police were executing a “no knock warrant” when they were fired upon from within the room. Returning fire would be a logical thing to do. However, there is certainly some blame involved in originating the warrant with an erroneous address.

Most recent writing indicates that the police had the no-knock warrant but they didn't execute it and they announced themselves. The address was also correct as BT's ex had close contact with her and there is some (very weak) evidence of her handling his money and potentially drugs/weapons.

Remember, we are now operating in a new political world here in the good ole USA.

We have gone from protesting police brutality - full circle now - to black crimes against police.

Now, it's perfectly acceptable for blacks to disrespect the police, resist arrest, fight the police, tase the police, take their weapons, shoot at the police,
and kill the police.
Only if you are black (or their agents). Then you have all the right in the world to riot, loot, burn and kill others.  All these are now perfectly
acceptable modes of behavior in the name of "social justice" and fighting "systematic racism".

Only in America, unfortunately. I may have to move to Canada with CW!
.

Apparently.

No apparently according to you hypocrites the 2nd amendment does not apply to people of color. People of color are supposed to not defend themselves when someone breaks down their door in the middle of the night. 100 years later and how little some things have changed since the 1919s.

Adesigar - try not to be an idiot if you can. I know it might be tough for you.

Who said anything about the 2nd amendment? Or people of color defending themselves?

Just say what you mean and call us racists.

It's a good look for you when you can not come up with a rational argument.
You learned well from your virtue signaling buddies on the LEFT - when all else fails - call them racists and bigots.

You and gregmal have succeeded in being idiots and morons for a while. You do it with virtually every post you make. You have no facts, double standards and a cult like mindless regurgitation of Fox News.

A guy has his door being knocked down in the middle of the night and fires at the perceived intruder. Isn’t it his 2nd amendment right to protect himself? If I recall correctly you guys have been in favor of the second amendment in past discussions so it must be something else you have a problem with.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 24, 2020, 03:06:53 PM
I dont think I've ever watched Fox News and Ive stated many times I am in favor of serious gun reforms and that normal citizens should not be allowed to own AR-15s and such. But keep going. You are almost there! Please, just nut up and say it! RACIST! Scream oh brother, scream. Like the liberals teach you. Identity politics!
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Ross812 on September 24, 2020, 03:18:37 PM
Yes, my mistake In that case, he was more than justified firing at cops, indeed. Fire away!


From what I have read, the police were executing a “no knock warrant” when they were fired upon from within the room. Returning fire would be a logical thing to do. However, there is certainly some blame involved in originating the warrant with an erroneous address.

Most recent writing indicates that the police had the no-knock warrant but they didn't execute it and they announced themselves. The address was also correct as BT's ex had close contact with her and there is some (very weak) evidence of her handling his money and potentially drugs/weapons.

Remember, we are now operating in a new political world here in the good ole USA.

We have gone from protesting police brutality - full circle now - to black crimes against police.

Now, it's perfectly acceptable for blacks to disrespect the police, resist arrest, fight the police, tase the police, take their weapons, shoot at the police,
and kill the police.
Only if you are black (or their agents). Then you have all the right in the world to riot, loot, burn and kill others.  All these are now perfectly
acceptable modes of behavior in the name of "social justice" and fighting "systematic racism".

Only in America, unfortunately. I may have to move to Canada with CW!
.

Apparently.

No apparently according to you hypocrites the 2nd amendment does not apply to people of color. People of color are supposed to not defend themselves when someone breaks down their door in the middle of the night. 100 years later and how little some things have changed since the 1919s.

Adesigar - try not to be an idiot if you can. I know it might be tough for you.

Who said anything about the 2nd amendment? Or people of color defending themselves?

Just say what you mean and call us racists.

It's a good look for you when you can not come up with a rational argument.
You learned well from your virtue signaling buddies on the LEFT - when all else fails - call them racists and bigots.

Put yourself in the situation:

-You awake at 1am to "bang, bang, bang" on your door
-You yell "Who's there"
-No answer
-"bang, bang, bang"
-You grab your gun and go in the hallway and again yell "Who's there!"
-No answer
-Door explodes off its hinges because its been hit by a battering ram.
-You shoot the first guy through the door
-The two plain clothes dudes rush into your house yelling police, and shoot 20 rounds, another dude is shooting blindly through your apartment window
-Your girl friend is shot 6 times
-A police officer radios for an ambulance for his partner who got shot in the leg (they previously sent the ambulance away because they didn't need it)
-EMTs get there and start administering aid to the injured police officer, your girl friend dies sometime in the 20 minutes between the call for help and EMTs  turning their attention to her
-Police officer firing through the window disappears - his partners don't know where he went and is unreachable. 
-Police book you for attempted murder of a police officer
-Police file a report that says no suspects were injured and the apartment was not entered forcibly, no mention of the 4th uniformed officer on scene
-Family fights for answers - no body cameras were turned over, disappearing officer is fired, all charges are dropped against boyfriend (you) 

Given the situation above, what is a responsible gun toting second amendment supporting citizen to do? The police claim they announced themselves. Something neighbors and Walker refute. This could all be cleared up with body camera footage. The three plain clothes officers are not required to wear the cams and said they were not that night, but the three officer in question do regularly wear cameras when serving warrants. The 4th uniformed officer is required to wear his body cam, but the footage has never been turned over. The DA seemed to agree Walker was defending himself, dropping all charges against him.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Castanza on September 24, 2020, 04:18:10 PM
Understandable for sure. I think most anger should be directed at the War on Drug and no knock warrants. This whole situation was avoidable from that perspective.

As a responsible gun owner it is my responsibility to properly identify a threat. You cannot just start wildly blasting at someone who enters your home. You need to verify that your life is in danger 100%. There are dozens of individuals who are prosecuted for this every year. They likely receive a similar sentencing that the cop got. If the boyfriend lived it's likely he would have been cited in the same manner. When I took a NRA course about this, they were very clear on what you can and cannot do to burglars. That being said it's not entirely relevant to this situation. The whole thing was messed up from the beginning and people just want to throw blame. I thought the ruling was pretty fair. But there are still issue that need to be addressed.

Justin Amash has had a bill out (see below) there since day one of George Floyd and has been talking about it for a long long time. Nobody on either side of the aisle has taken him up on it.

- End qualified immunity
- End civil asset forfeiture
- End the drug war
- End overcriminalization
- End no-knock warrants
- End militarization of police
- End mandatory minimums

To me, this is the best place to start. But as always, emotions rule the land and people want to take extreme stances like defund the police or start shooting protestors like Kent State. This is why I'm done with the two parties. There are things I like and dislike about both of them. But from a high level, I see no path back to common sense for either party. I'll vote Jo Jorgensen, and I suggest anyone else who is sick of this two party system do the same.

Future prediction: 1.) Society pushes forward outpacing former extremes year after year until the system reaching a tipping point and everything breaks. 2.) Society embraces change and gets back to the foundations and principles that made America great to begin with. I don't see either of these happening this election. If I had to bet I would put put it on Trump since he is talking the most about Law and Order. At the end of the day people vote with their wallets and personal possessions. Democrats really should take a step back and rethink their socialist bullshit. If there was a scale 1-10 on how extreme each party has gotten with their views I would say Republicans are a 5 and Democrats are a 6 (7 if you include Green New Deal nonsense).

Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cubsfan on September 24, 2020, 05:17:14 PM

You and gregmal have succeeded in being idiots and morons for a while. You do it with virtually every post you make. You have no facts, double standards and a cult like mindless regurgitation of Fox News.

A guy has his door being knocked down in the middle of the night and fires at the perceived intruder. Isn’t it his 2nd amendment right to protect himself? If I recall correctly you guys have been in favor of the second amendment in past discussions so it must be something else you have a problem with.

I have no problem with the 2nd amendment, but I hate guns and will never own one.
I've never said he should not protect himself - so you can dispense with the lies already.

So you want to stick up for criminals - that's on you. What happened to Ms. Taylor was a tragedy indeed. Unfortunately, you do run some risks
of a tragedy like this happening when you live a criminal lifestyle. Her home was basically a drug stash house. She herself may have been involved,
as the drug dealing and stash houses were going on for some time.

Personally, if I did not want "problems with the police" - I would not associate with these types of people.

But glorify them if you like.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: LC on September 24, 2020, 08:16:41 PM
Verify if your life is in danger 100%? If a guy breaks into my house with a gun, should I ask if his gun is loaded and functioning properly before I can defend myself? You are the reasonable one out of the Trump triumvirate, come on now!
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cubsfan on September 24, 2020, 08:26:42 PM
Verify if your life is in danger 100%? If a guy breaks into my house with a gun, should I ask if his gun is loaded and functioning properly before I can defend myself? You are the reasonable one out of the Trump triumvirate, come on now!

Respectfully, I am not following you. I have no problem with the 2nd amendment or anyone defending themselves or their property.
I don't get your point.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: LC on September 24, 2020, 08:51:10 PM
Ross has done the generous task of illustrating the known timeline of events. To me, it is completely reasonable to consider my life in danger if my front door was kicked down at 1 am by a gang of intruders.

I am arguing that Castanza’s criticism of this justification is unreasonable.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Castanza on September 25, 2020, 12:19:19 AM
Verify if your life is in danger 100%? If a guy breaks into my house with a gun, should I ask if his gun is loaded and functioning properly before I can defend myself? You are the reasonable one out of the Trump triumvirate, come on now!

I’m not giving my personal view on it. I’m just stating the reality of how things can go in the court. A smart lawyer can make some work of the situation. That’s exactly why they made sure to say in this case that the police “identified” themselves. If they didn’t then there is a low of leeway. Generally castle doctrine wins.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/may-i-shoot-an-intruder.html

On a personal level I agree with you. But as I said, it’s not really apples to apples in this situation.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: LC on September 25, 2020, 06:26:45 AM
Ok, I thought you were giving your personal opinion. I am somewhat familiar with the laws in various states, and I think it is your representation is inaccurate.

Legally as we have seen in other high profile "stand your ground" shootings, a "100% verifiable" threat that your life is in imminent danger is not required.

For example in Colorado I can shoot an intruder "if I believe they intend to commit a crime and use physical force".

At the end of the day the legal implications are a mess to wade through. And as we know the courts love black shooters...

But I think in terms of the "smell test", if I put myself in their shoes, I would have done exactly the same thing. I mean, c'mon... some dudes barge into my home at 1 AM? I don't think they're here to spread the Good News.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Ross812 on September 25, 2020, 06:59:15 AM
Verify if your life is in danger 100%? If a guy breaks into my house with a gun, should I ask if his gun is loaded and functioning properly before I can defend myself? You are the reasonable one out of the Trump triumvirate, come on now!

I’m not giving my personal view on it. I’m just stating the reality of how things can go in the court. A smart lawyer can make some work of the situation. That’s exactly why they made sure to say in this case that the police “identified” themselves. If they didn’t then there is a low of leeway. Generally castle doctrine wins.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/may-i-shoot-an-intruder.html

On a personal level I agree with you. But as I said, it’s not really apples to apples in this situation.

This should apply to police as well though right? I don't think there would have been any protests had they shot Walker who had fired the gun. Instead they just started spraying rounds all over the apartment (including firing blindly through a curtained window) and shot the unarmed person 6 times.

I think the list from Amash you posted would go a long way in addressing what the protests are actually about. The main suspect in the drug case had already been arrested and was in custody. Why serve a search warrant at 1am and kick down the door of a woman who had dated the suspect in the months before and whos crime was receiving packages at her apartment with the suspects name on them? Why did the police report fail to mention the police shot and killed someone? Why did the police report fail to mention they forced entry? Why did one officer leave and could not be reached on radio or cell phone before the rest of the backup arrived after the incident? Why was no body camera footage available?

It sounds like the police knew they made a big mistake. Any body cams would have been turned over procedurally after the incident had an accurate police report which identified they forced entry and had shot and killed someone. Walker was originally charged with attempted murder of a police officer. All charges were dropped. It seems the prosecutor agrees Walker was defending himself. The case did not blow up in the news until the Brianna's family and lawyer discovered the police report, and evidence against her.

People are protesting because how often does this happen: "False police report filed, no fault taken, business as usual", and those involved don't have the resources for a lawyer and discovery? Its the same protest going on elsewhere - how often do the police use excessive force and it is not captured on video? Cubs and Greg are talking law and order. The protests are about the same thing. Right now the cops police themselves. 99% of police are probably great people, but mistakes and/or the behavior of your 1% of officers who are criminals themselves is easy to cover up.   
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Castanza on September 25, 2020, 07:18:19 AM
Verify if your life is in danger 100%? If a guy breaks into my house with a gun, should I ask if his gun is loaded and functioning properly before I can defend myself? You are the reasonable one out of the Trump triumvirate, come on now!

I’m not giving my personal view on it. I’m just stating the reality of how things can go in the court. A smart lawyer can make some work of the situation. That’s exactly why they made sure to say in this case that the police “identified” themselves. If they didn’t then there is a low of leeway. Generally castle doctrine wins.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/may-i-shoot-an-intruder.html

On a personal level I agree with you. But as I said, it’s not really apples to apples in this situation.

This should apply to police as well though right? I don't think there would have been any protests had they shot Walker who had fired the gun. Instead they just started spraying rounds all over the apartment (including firing blindly through a curtained window) and shot the unarmed person 6 times.

I think the list from Amash you posted would go a long way in addressing what the protests are actually about. The main suspect in the drug case had already been arrested and was in custody. Why serve a search warrant at 1am and kick down the door of a woman who had dated the suspect in the months before and whos crime was receiving packages at her apartment with the suspects name on them? Why did the police report fail to mention the police shot and killed someone? Why did the police report fail to mention they forced entry? Why did one officer leave and could not be reached on radio or cell phone before the rest of the backup arrived after the incident? Why was no body camera footage available?

It sounds like the police knew they made a big mistake. Any body cams would have been turned over procedurally after the incident had an accurate police report which identified they forced entry and had shot and killed someone. Walker was originally charged with attempted murder of a police officer. All charges were dropped. It seems the prosecutor agrees Walker was defending himself. The case did not blow up in the news until the Brianna's family and lawyer discovered the police report, and evidence against her.

People are protesting because how often does this happen: "False police report filed, no fault taken, business as usual", and those involved don't have the resources for a lawyer and discovery? Its the same protest going on elsewhere - how often do the police use excessive force and it is not captured on video? Cubs and Greg are talking law and order. The protests are about the same thing. Right now the cops police themselves. 99% of police are probably great people, but mistakes and/or the behavior of your 1% of officers who are criminals themselves is easy to cover up.

Absolutely the rules should apply. What's interesting about the list Amash has recommended is that this evidence is already available. If we look at the contrast of the military and law enforcement the rules and subsequent punishments are far different. There is basically zero room for error in the military. If you screw up in the smallest fashion you are hung out to dry. Policing in the US has become a brotherhood without any outside accountability. I'm not saying their job is easy (it's not), but there needs to be more accountability and fear of "if I mess this up I'm toast" from the outside. I'm also very much against unions in the public sector.

It's frustrating though because as I said nobody on either side wants to make changes. It's all political jargon going into the election.

edit: I also think i's valuable to note that the signed warrant changes the context to some degree. Comparing this directly to a burglar type scenario is not ideal. But there is some aspect to that. I think the ruling was pretty fair for the situation.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cubsfan on September 25, 2020, 07:32:45 AM
Ross - might want to find out more about Breanna Taylor.

Breanna was knee deep in criminal activity. They have her phone conversations with Jamarcus Glover, the locked up dude. They are taped
conversations while Glover is in jail. Glover is directing her for his drug activities, pickups, cash collection, etc. It's all on tape and you can
read the transcripts.

Breanna Taylor's car was used in a murder. The victim was found shot to death in a car she rented. The murder is unsolved and neither
Glover or Taylor were charged.

Her personal car is under surveillance tapes. Glover was using her car to distribute drugs. You can see the pictures and logs of the activities.

Jamarcus Glover was arrested, convicted and jailed felon at least 2X. He was recently arrested for possession of stolen firearms.
Breanna bails him out with $16K cash. After which Breanna "loses" her job with the City of Louisville. No explanation given.

Breanna was not some seemingly innocent med-tech as the media is portraying her. She was knee deep in criminal activity for 2 years,
as yet, uncharged.

The warrant issued was in Breanna's name - as the probable cause was her residence was a stash house for drugs and cash - as yet unproven, but
due to surveillance, the authorities were closer to proving her activities.

She did not deserve to die - but my statement about associating with known criminals stands - it's not at all smart and can end up tragically.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Gregmal on September 25, 2020, 09:09:34 AM
Exactly.

This whole "dindu nuffin" phrase and parodying of the knee jerk denials and lies when caught breaking the law isn't exactly pulled out of thin air. Its been a constant plea, which the media now perfectly complements with their rush to shape all the narratives. How long did it take for any of them to report on the "other side of the story"...most still have not.

So there is a claim they didn't announce themselves.....ok, well how many people in jail still claim they are innocent? Not every person arrested or hassled by police officers is some "victim of circumstance"...yet they all claim to be. I mean, fuck, the little 14 year old gang banger who killed Tessa Majors played the dindu nuffin card and was simultaneously caught on a recorded line telling his incarcerated father he killed her!

Bottom line is that sometimes when you do certain things, you create problems for yourself. Charles Barkley and Shaquille O'neal nailed this 100%...and of course the Twitter morons didnt like it. But everything they said is on point.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Ross812 on September 25, 2020, 09:28:32 AM
Ross - might want to find out more about Breanna Taylor.

Breanna was knee deep in criminal activity. They have her phone conversations with Jamarcus Glover, the locked up dude. They are taped
conversations while Glover is in jail. Glover is directing her for his drug activities, pickups, cash collection, etc. It's all on tape and you can
read the transcripts.

Breanna Taylor's car was used in a murder. The victim was found shot to death in a car she rented. The murder is unsolved and neither
Glover or Taylor were charged.

Her personal car is under surveillance tapes. Glover was using her car to distribute drugs. You can see the pictures and logs of the activities.

Jamarcus Glover was arrested, convicted and jailed felon at least 2X. He was recently arrested for possession of stolen firearms.
Breanna bails him out with $16K cash. After which Breanna "loses" her job with the City of Louisville. No explanation given.

Breanna was not some seemingly innocent med-tech as the media is portraying her. She was knee deep in criminal activity for 2 years,
as yet, uncharged.

The warrant issued was in Breanna's name - as the probable cause was her residence was a stash house for drugs and cash - as yet unproven, but
due to surveillance, the authorities were closer to proving her activities.

She did not deserve to die - but my statement about associating with known criminals stands - it's not at all smart and can end up tragically.

The protesters/media are going to paint her in a favorable light for sure. If she was "knee deep" in criminal activity and the police were justified in what they were doing then why all the shenanigans with the police report/body cams? The protests, as I stated in my last reply, are about the police acting with impunity. Let's call a spade a spade. The police report was falsified. At least one of the officers on scene was required to have his body camera on, yet no body cam footage was turned over. The officer who was just brought up on charges was fired nearly 4 months after the incident during the protests. Would there have been any consequences at all for the officers if the family/lawyer did not go looking for answers?

The Police Chief in Louisville was fired during the protests for a similar incident. The incident happened with police officers who had been standing on the line all day during the protests enforcing a 9pm curfew. 12 police officers and 2 guardsmen went to a predominantly black neighborhood around midnight and ordered a crowd of people to disperse while shooting into the crowd with pepper balls. David McAtee, the owner of the restaurant people were congregating around, shot at the police who returned fire. One of the guardsmen ultimately killed McAtee. The Police Chief was fired because not one of the 12 uniformed officers turned on their body cameras prior to the event. I don't think anyone would argue the police were not justified in returning fire. The subject of the protests is again, police impunity. Why enforce a curfew meant to give pretext for arresting rioters downtown 3 miles away? Why start yelling on bullhorns and immediately shooting pepper balls (as security footage shows)? Answer (in the protesters mind):  The police officers involved had been screamed at, had stuff thrown at them, and insulted all day. Rightfully pissed off, they get a call a large group of people are congregated at a gas station and BBQ joint in a predominantly black neighborhood in Louisville. They think "Let's get some retribution". They roll up, get out of their cars, form a line and start shouting disburse over a bullhorn while shooting pepper balls into a crowd. If someone had not been killed, would there have been any consequences? Would the police report have just read a crowd was dispursed at street X/X? 12 officers didn't "forget" to turn on their body cameras.

Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: cubsfan on September 25, 2020, 10:00:16 AM
I still have a very difficult time with this.

Walker first shot at the police and severely wounded one of them. They returned fire, killing Breanna.
The Media tells us there was no knock. The Police and a witness say there was a knock and an announcement of police.
The police had a legal warrant for Breanna Taylor.

Who's word do you believe?

Yeah - it's all about police brutality against blacks - let's victimize and honor the criminals - and make the police the criminals.

Take your side...
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Ross812 on September 25, 2020, 10:30:17 AM
I still have a very difficult time with this.

Walker first shot at the police and severely wounded one of them. They returned fire, killing Breanna.
The Media tells us there was no knock. The Police and a witness say there was a knock and an announcement of police.
The police had a legal warrant for Breanna Taylor.

Who's word do you believe?

Yeah - it's all about police brutality against blacks - let's victimize and honor the criminals - and make the police the criminals.

Take your side...

Even Walker says there were multiple knocks... 1 of 12 witness said they heard the police announce themselves after the third interview. You know what would clear this up? Body camera footage.

Please answer why it was ok for the police report to be falsified. 

I don't blame the police for returning fire and I don't think they should be charged with murder. Nothing has changed regarding police accountability though. What do you do with police force that turns off their body cams when they know something that is gonna look bad is going to go down? (McAtee) What is the penalty for falsifying a police report, firing blindly through a window, shooting the wrong person, and non-existent/missing body cameras? 

I think police effectiveness is measured by arrests, crime rate etc. It is easier to arrest, get convictions, and secure your funding by going after people who are poor and do not have the means to defend themselves. The majority of the population with well funded police departments live in cities, the poor population in many cities is predominantly black. The problem of police impunity is universal - but the over policed population is going to bear the brunt of it.     
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: lnofeisone on September 25, 2020, 04:48:38 PM
What is the penalty for falsifying a police report, firing blindly through a window, shooting the wrong person, and non-existent/missing body cameras? 

Curious what you consider falsifying report. I looked at the report (https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/bt-incident-report-redacted-1591815417.pdf). Definitely truth stretching and covered with CYA (very liberal interpretation of the questions) and so I am curious what part of it would be considered falsified.

My understanding of forcible entry is - unannounced and warrantless entry (i.e., unlawful entry). In this case, police announced themselves and had a warrant (that was not a no knock warrant). The elements of forcible entry are absent.

As far as the injuries to BT - are injuries to deceased require to be reported?
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Ross812 on September 25, 2020, 05:52:38 PM
The checked boxes could probably be expounded on in the "public narrative" section. Instead it reads only "PIU Investigation". There is no indication she was killed anywhere in the report or that a battering ram was used. My police report from being rear ended last year is much more detailed.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: lnofeisone on September 26, 2020, 08:06:33 AM
The checked boxes could probably be expounded on in the "public narrative" section. Instead it reads only "PIU Investigation". There is no indication she was killed anywhere in the report or that a battering ram was used. My police report from being rear ended last year is much more detailed.

Absolutely agree. Something this major should've had some serious narrative. This looks like the bare minimum they had to provide. 100% dishonest by omission but not falsifying. This is the other extreme of the MSM that paints BT as 100 innocent civilian who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The real answer, as per usual, is somewhere in the middle. 
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Ross812 on September 26, 2020, 08:48:22 AM
The checked boxes could probably be expounded on in the "public narrative" section. Instead it reads only "PIU Investigation". There is no indication she was killed anywhere in the report or that a battering ram was used. My police report from being rear ended last year is much more detailed.

Absolutely agree. Something this major should've had some serious narrative. This looks like the bare minimum they had to provide. 100% dishonest by omission but not falsifying. This is the other extreme of the MSM that paints BT as 100 innocent civilian who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The real answer, as per usual, is somewhere in the middle.

I agree the police were justified in obtaining the search warrant. I am more questioning the standard to which we hold our police. Why serve a search warrant at 1am? I tend to think the officers probably announced themselves once when they first knocked as the one witness accounts. The occupants were probably asleep or just woken up when the announcement was made. No more announcements, just another 45 seconds of door pounding before they battered it in. It sounds like the police were trying to intimidate them. When things went wrong, the police report was 100% dishonest by omission, growing up in a conservative God fearing home, my mother would have said I was lying/falsifying but the semantics are important I suppose. I understand supporting the rule of law, all the support the blue hashtags, but we should expect better. Instead of trying to do better we are chanting black or blue lives matter. One side of the coin directly answers to the public and common sense reforms shouldn't be impossible to implement. As for police unions, imagine how quickly their tune would change of they were financially responsible for their union members behavior.  The city of Louisville paid Brianna's family 12m; immagine of that came out of police pensions, how quickly they could implement reforms.
Title: Re: People Demand Justice
Post by: Spekulatius on September 27, 2020, 06:59:55 AM
Understandable for sure. I think most anger should be directed at the War on Drug and no knock warrants. This whole situation was avoidable from that perspective.

As a responsible gun owner it is my responsibility to properly identify a threat. You cannot just start wildly blasting at someone who enters your home. You need to verify that your life is in danger 100%. There are dozens of individuals who are prosecuted for this every year. They likely receive a similar sentencing that the cop got. If the boyfriend lived it's likely he would have been cited in the same manner. When I took a NRA course about this, they were very clear on what you can and cannot do to burglars. That being said it's not entirely relevant to this situation. The whole thing was messed up from the beginning and people just want to throw blame. I thought the ruling was pretty fair. But there are still issue that need to be addressed.


Are you sure about this. This was a case from a long time ago (a Scotsman told me about this):
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-01-21-mn-13822-story.html (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-01-21-mn-13822-story.html)

Quote
A Scottish businessman shot and killed by a Houston homeowner who apparently mistook him for a burglar was not legally drunk at the time of the early morning incident, the Harris County Medical Examiner’s Office said. Andrew Peter De Vries, 28, of Aberdeen, Scotland, had a blood-alcohol level of 0.08% when he was killed earlier this month by Jeffrey Agee, who fired three times through a back door in his house as De Vries was knocking on the door, a medical examiner’s office spokeswoman said. A blood-alcohol level of 0.10% is considered legally drunk in Texas. The case will be referred to a state grand jury without charges against Agee, police said.