People Demand Justice

[Castanza]

Verify if your life is in danger 100%? If a guy breaks into my house with a gun, should I ask if his gun is loaded and functioning properly before I can defend myself? You are the reasonable one out of the Trump triumvirate, come on now!

I’m not giving my personal view on it. I’m just stating the reality of how things can go in the court. A smart lawyer can make some work of the situation. That’s exactly why they made sure to say in this case that the police “identified” themselves. If they didn’t then there is a low of leeway. Generally castle doctrine wins.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/may-i-shoot-an-intruder.html

On a personal level I agree with you. But as I said, it’s not really apples to apples in this situation.

[LC]

Ok, I thought you were giving your personal opinion. I am somewhat familiar with the laws in various states, and I think it is your representation is inaccurate.

Legally as we have seen in other high profile "stand your ground" shootings, a "100% verifiable" threat that your life is in imminent danger is not required.

For example in Colorado I can shoot an intruder "if I believe they intend to commit a crime and use physical force".

At the end of the day the legal implications are a mess to wade through. And as we know the courts love black shooters...

But I think in terms of the "smell test", if I put myself in their shoes, I would have done exactly the same thing. I mean, c'mon... some dudes barge into my home at 1 AM? I don't think they're here to spread the Good News.

[Ross812]

Verify if your life is in danger 100%? If a guy breaks into my house with a gun, should I ask if his gun is loaded and functioning properly before I can defend myself? You are the reasonable one out of the Trump triumvirate, come on now!

I’m not giving my personal view on it. I’m just stating the reality of how things can go in the court. A smart lawyer can make some work of the situation. That’s exactly why they made sure to say in this case that the police “identified” themselves. If they didn’t then there is a low of leeway. Generally castle doctrine wins.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/may-i-shoot-an-intruder.html

On a personal level I agree with you. But as I said, it’s not really apples to apples in this situation.

This should apply to police as well though right? I don't think there would have been any protests had they shot Walker who had fired the gun. Instead they just started spraying rounds all over the apartment (including firing blindly through a curtained window) and shot the unarmed person 6 times.

I think the list from Amash you posted would go a long way in addressing what the protests are actually about. The main suspect in the drug case had already been arrested and was in custody. Why serve a search warrant at 1am and kick down the door of a woman who had dated the suspect in the months before and whos crime was receiving packages at her apartment with the suspects name on them? Why did the police report fail to mention the police shot and killed someone? Why did the police report fail to mention they forced entry? Why did one officer leave and could not be reached on radio or cell phone before the rest of the backup arrived after the incident? Why was no body camera footage available?

It sounds like the police knew they made a big mistake. Any body cams would have been turned over procedurally after the incident had an accurate police report which identified they forced entry and had shot and killed someone. Walker was originally charged with attempted murder of a police officer. All charges were dropped. It seems the prosecutor agrees Walker was defending himself. The case did not blow up in the news until the Brianna's family and lawyer discovered the police report, and evidence against her.

People are protesting because how often does this happen: "False police report filed, no fault taken, business as usual", and those involved don't have the resources for a lawyer and discovery? Its the same protest going on elsewhere - how often do the police use excessive force and it is not captured on video? Cubs and Greg are talking law and order. The protests are about the same thing. Right now the cops police themselves. 99% of police are probably great people, but mistakes and/or the behavior of your 1% of officers who are criminals themselves is easy to cover up.   

[Castanza]

Verify if your life is in danger 100%? If a guy breaks into my house with a gun, should I ask if his gun is loaded and functioning properly before I can defend myself? You are the reasonable one out of the Trump triumvirate, come on now!

I’m not giving my personal view on it. I’m just stating the reality of how things can go in the court. A smart lawyer can make some work of the situation. That’s exactly why they made sure to say in this case that the police “identified” themselves. If they didn’t then there is a low of leeway. Generally castle doctrine wins.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/may-i-shoot-an-intruder.html

On a personal level I agree with you. But as I said, it’s not really apples to apples in this situation.

This should apply to police as well though right? I don't think there would have been any protests had they shot Walker who had fired the gun. Instead they just started spraying rounds all over the apartment (including firing blindly through a curtained window) and shot the unarmed person 6 times.

I think the list from Amash you posted would go a long way in addressing what the protests are actually about. The main suspect in the drug case had already been arrested and was in custody. Why serve a search warrant at 1am and kick down the door of a woman who had dated the suspect in the months before and whos crime was receiving packages at her apartment with the suspects name on them? Why did the police report fail to mention the police shot and killed someone? Why did the police report fail to mention they forced entry? Why did one officer leave and could not be reached on radio or cell phone before the rest of the backup arrived after the incident? Why was no body camera footage available?

It sounds like the police knew they made a big mistake. Any body cams would have been turned over procedurally after the incident had an accurate police report which identified they forced entry and had shot and killed someone. Walker was originally charged with attempted murder of a police officer. All charges were dropped. It seems the prosecutor agrees Walker was defending himself. The case did not blow up in the news until the Brianna's family and lawyer discovered the police report, and evidence against her.

People are protesting because how often does this happen: "False police report filed, no fault taken, business as usual", and those involved don't have the resources for a lawyer and discovery? Its the same protest going on elsewhere - how often do the police use excessive force and it is not captured on video? Cubs and Greg are talking law and order. The protests are about the same thing. Right now the cops police themselves. 99% of police are probably great people, but mistakes and/or the behavior of your 1% of officers who are criminals themselves is easy to cover up.

Absolutely the rules should apply. What's interesting about the list Amash has recommended is that this evidence is already available. If we look at the contrast of the military and law enforcement the rules and subsequent punishments are far different. There is basically zero room for error in the military. If you screw up in the smallest fashion you are hung out to dry. Policing in the US has become a brotherhood without any outside accountability. I'm not saying their job is easy (it's not), but there needs to be more accountability and fear of "if I mess this up I'm toast" from the outside. I'm also very much against unions in the public sector.

It's frustrating though because as I said nobody on either side wants to make changes. It's all political jargon going into the election.

edit: I also think i's valuable to note that the signed warrant changes the context to some degree. Comparing this directly to a burglar type scenario is not ideal. But there is some aspect to that. I think the ruling was pretty fair for the situation.

[cubsfan]

Ross - might want to find out more about Breanna Taylor.

Breanna was knee deep in criminal activity. They have her phone conversations with Jamarcus Glover, the locked up dude. They are taped
conversations while Glover is in jail. Glover is directing her for his drug activities, pickups, cash collection, etc. It's all on tape and you can
read the transcripts.

Breanna Taylor's car was used in a murder. The victim was found shot to death in a car she rented. The murder is unsolved and neither
Glover or Taylor were charged.

Her personal car is under surveillance tapes. Glover was using her car to distribute drugs. You can see the pictures and logs of the activities.

Jamarcus Glover was arrested, convicted and jailed felon at least 2X. He was recently arrested for possession of stolen firearms.
Breanna bails him out with $16K cash. After which Breanna "loses" her job with the City of Louisville. No explanation given.

Breanna was not some seemingly innocent med-tech as the media is portraying her. She was knee deep in criminal activity for 2 years,
as yet, uncharged.

The warrant issued was in Breanna's name - as the probable cause was her residence was a stash house for drugs and cash - as yet unproven, but
due to surveillance, the authorities were closer to proving her activities.

She did not deserve to die - but my statement about associating with known criminals stands - it's not at all smart and can end up tragically.

[Gregmal]

Exactly.

This whole "dindu nuffin" phrase and parodying of the knee jerk denials and lies when caught breaking the law isn't exactly pulled out of thin air. Its been a constant plea, which the media now perfectly complements with their rush to shape all the narratives. How long did it take for any of them to report on the "other side of the story"...most still have not.

So there is a claim they didn't announce themselves.....ok, well how many people in jail still claim they are innocent? Not every person arrested or hassled by police officers is some "victim of circumstance"...yet they all claim to be. I mean, fuck, the little 14 year old gang banger who killed Tessa Majors played the dindu nuffin card and was simultaneously caught on a recorded line telling his incarcerated father he killed her!

Bottom line is that sometimes when you do certain things, you create problems for yourself. Charles Barkley and Shaquille O'neal nailed this 100%...and of course the Twitter morons didnt like it. But everything they said is on point.

[Ross812]

Ross - might want to find out more about Breanna Taylor.

Breanna was knee deep in criminal activity. They have her phone conversations with Jamarcus Glover, the locked up dude. They are taped
conversations while Glover is in jail. Glover is directing her for his drug activities, pickups, cash collection, etc. It's all on tape and you can
read the transcripts.

Breanna Taylor's car was used in a murder. The victim was found shot to death in a car she rented. The murder is unsolved and neither
Glover or Taylor were charged.

Her personal car is under surveillance tapes. Glover was using her car to distribute drugs. You can see the pictures and logs of the activities.

Jamarcus Glover was arrested, convicted and jailed felon at least 2X. He was recently arrested for possession of stolen firearms.
Breanna bails him out with $16K cash. After which Breanna "loses" her job with the City of Louisville. No explanation given.

Breanna was not some seemingly innocent med-tech as the media is portraying her. She was knee deep in criminal activity for 2 years,
as yet, uncharged.

The warrant issued was in Breanna's name - as the probable cause was her residence was a stash house for drugs and cash - as yet unproven, but
due to surveillance, the authorities were closer to proving her activities.

She did not deserve to die - but my statement about associating with known criminals stands - it's not at all smart and can end up tragically.

The protesters/media are going to paint her in a favorable light for sure. If she was "knee deep" in criminal activity and the police were justified in what they were doing then why all the shenanigans with the police report/body cams? The protests, as I stated in my last reply, are about the police acting with impunity. Let's call a spade a spade. The police report was falsified. At least one of the officers on scene was required to have his body camera on, yet no body cam footage was turned over. The officer who was just brought up on charges was fired nearly 4 months after the incident during the protests. Would there have been any consequences at all for the officers if the family/lawyer did not go looking for answers?

The Police Chief in Louisville was fired during the protests for a similar incident. The incident happened with police officers who had been standing on the line all day during the protests enforcing a 9pm curfew. 12 police officers and 2 guardsmen went to a predominantly black neighborhood around midnight and ordered a crowd of people to disperse while shooting into the crowd with pepper balls. David McAtee, the owner of the restaurant people were congregating around, shot at the police who returned fire. One of the guardsmen ultimately killed McAtee. The Police Chief was fired because not one of the 12 uniformed officers turned on their body cameras prior to the event. I don't think anyone would argue the police were not justified in returning fire. The subject of the protests is again, police impunity. Why enforce a curfew meant to give pretext for arresting rioters downtown 3 miles away? Why start yelling on bullhorns and immediately shooting pepper balls (as security footage shows)? Answer (in the protesters mind):  The police officers involved had been screamed at, had stuff thrown at them, and insulted all day. Rightfully pissed off, they get a call a large group of people are congregated at a gas station and BBQ joint in a predominantly black neighborhood in Louisville. They think "Let's get some retribution". They roll up, get out of their cars, form a line and start shouting disburse over a bullhorn while shooting pepper balls into a crowd. If someone had not been killed, would there have been any consequences? Would the police report have just read a crowd was dispursed at street X/X? 12 officers didn't "forget" to turn on their body cameras.

[cubsfan]

I still have a very difficult time with this.

Walker first shot at the police and severely wounded one of them. They returned fire, killing Breanna.
The Media tells us there was no knock. The Police and a witness say there was a knock and an announcement of police.
The police had a legal warrant for Breanna Taylor.

Who's word do you believe?

Yeah - it's all about police brutality against blacks - let's victimize and honor the criminals - and make the police the criminals.

Take your side...

[Ross812]

I still have a very difficult time with this.

Walker first shot at the police and severely wounded one of them. They returned fire, killing Breanna.
The Media tells us there was no knock. The Police and a witness say there was a knock and an announcement of police.
The police had a legal warrant for Breanna Taylor.

Who's word do you believe?

Yeah - it's all about police brutality against blacks - let's victimize and honor the criminals - and make the police the criminals.

Take your side...

Even Walker says there were multiple knocks... 1 of 12 witness said they heard the police announce themselves after the third interview. You know what would clear this up? Body camera footage.

Please answer why it was ok for the police report to be falsified. 

I don't blame the police for returning fire and I don't think they should be charged with murder. Nothing has changed regarding police accountability though. What do you do with police force that turns off their body cams when they know something that is gonna look bad is going to go down? (McAtee) What is the penalty for falsifying a police report, firing blindly through a window, shooting the wrong person, and non-existent/missing body cameras? 

I think police effectiveness is measured by arrests, crime rate etc. It is easier to arrest, get convictions, and secure your funding by going after people who are poor and do not have the means to defend themselves. The majority of the population with well funded police departments live in cities, the poor population in many cities is predominantly black. The problem of police impunity is universal - but the over policed population is going to bear the brunt of it.     

[lnofeisone]

What is the penalty for falsifying a police report, firing blindly through a window, shooting the wrong person, and non-existent/missing body cameras? 

Curious what you consider falsifying report. I looked at the report (https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/bt-incident-report-redacted-1591815417.pdf). Definitely truth stretching and covered with CYA (very liberal interpretation of the questions) and so I am curious what part of it would be considered falsified.

My understanding of forcible entry is - unannounced and warrantless entry (i.e., unlawful entry). In this case, police announced themselves and had a warrant (that was not a no knock warrant). The elements of forcible entry are absent.

As far as the injuries to BT - are injuries to deceased require to be reported?