Author Topic: Question for Trump Supporters Who Support the Overthrow of the US Government  (Read 8592 times)

Read the Footnotes

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If revamping government = "burning everything down", I am not quite should one is truly all too concerned with or even appreciative of, democracy. If by burning everything down, there is a reference to something else, I guess I missed it.

The issue fundamentally, which is what the majority of Americans take issue with, regardless of where they choose to protest/riot/insurrect, is that the government isnt doing its job. The folks in power are hypocrites and liars and it is a bipartisan issue. The discord is regularly monetized by whatever party it benefits, to rile people up, and motivate folks to do what said politicians want. This shit is then gargled around MSM and regurgitated by snot nosed elitists who live in mansions and get paid extraordinarily well to add little value to the world, IE C-suite type, university professors, journalists, etc. Those people dont care about America, and simply use their virtue signaling for personal benefit.

Case in point....you have vaccines ready to go and a shit show system in place....and Trump is whining about his Twitter account, and Nancy Pelosi and friends are pushing for another political show and otherwise waste of time trying to impeach a guy who is going to be out of office in 10 days...
You mention vaccines, Israel seems to be inoculating residents at more than 10x the rate of the USA, so Israel seems to be better run on at least one scale of measurement that you bring up provided that the individual Trumpist is not an antivaxer and believes that COVID is not a hoax. If COVID is a hoax, vaccination at such a high rate would surely be a waste of resources. As a multiparty parliamentary democracy, might Israel have other qualties to recommend it to Trumpists?

Back to the question at hand do you have a recommendations for countries you prefer to the USA?


cubsfan

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Maybe a Libertarian utopia can be formed somewhere (at sea?) and our Libertarian friends here and elsewhere can live out their dreams of “pure freedom” while the rest of us can get on with our lives in our respective “shit hole” countries.
 

Awesome - they love "shit hole" countries like Haiti, Cuba, Venezuela etc - but I don't see them rushing.

Me?  I'm happy to stay here and try and fix the still greatest country in the world.

Gregmal

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I don't have answers for some of the theoreticals in which you address and I dont pretend to read peoples minds so I'll defer. Although Ive heard Haifa is gorgeous.

Williams406

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@JRM or others who think believe there is 'evidence of [above average] election irregularities at a large enough scale...'

Full disclosure:
1) I haven't come across evidence of this, mainly cause I consume (probably) left-leaning mainstream/tech media... and I don't even know where to begin searching for 'credible' evidence of this to form a more-balanced opinion
2) I'm genuinely interested, NOT in engaging in a debate on this (because I don't know the data intimately), but to evaluate-the-evidence (that those who believe the 'election fraud narrative' find compelling), to form my own opinion on the theory

Question:
Are there links (recognizing that they probably won't be 'mainstream') where someone can point me to both the analysis and raw data that suggests 'above average amount of election fraud'?  And to be clear, I think there's probably ALWAYS some base-level of fraud (which varies depending on geographical/historical norms) - but I'd be very appreciative to see the evidence that 'above average fraud happened at national level in 2020'

Instead of relying on the losing candidate or independent researchers to "prove" anything, I think a highly auditable and verifiable system should be in place. If my business posts financial statements rather out of line with historical figures, that's a flag and may trigger a tax or regulatory audit. And probably should. If signature verification figures or adjudication numbers spike. It seems like that is worthy of a full forensic audit. If the businesses of citizens are auditable by the state at great penalty, elections probably should have the same standard.

wachtwoord

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The US has a wonderful constitution written in the 18th century by wise men who learned from the despotic wrongs in Europe. The US strayed so so far from that it's sad. Entropy is a powerful unbeatable force.

The only way for those in power to give it up (smaller government) is through revolution. Revolutions suck and are unpredictable. I doubt that's on the table just yet anyway. The decline could continue for decades more first.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master"

JRM

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ReadTheFootnotes,

I'm not getting too hung up on the court cases.  I view it as not their job to fix this.  I haven't reviewed every single case, and I'm not a lawyer anyways.  My opinion doesn't mean much regarding the court cases.

I think the US is still the best game in town.  I can't complain.  I've been extremely lucky to be born in this country and have been afforded opportunities that 99% of the people on earth could only dream of.

Regarding where to start looking at evidence, I would recommend starting here:

Willian Ligon, Georgia Senate Judiciary Committee report: http://www.senatorligon.com/THE_SENATE%20JUDICIARY%20SUBCOMMITTEE_FINAL%20REPORT.PDF

Pennsylvania Senate letter to congress (the letter is embedded in this article):

https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/spl/electoral-college-certification-pennsylvania-senate-letter-20210106.html

rkbabang

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I hate Trump, but think it should be burned down.  If there was someplace better to go I'd have already moved there.  The world is a shithole where every square inch of inhabitable land is controlled by one gang or another, many places in dispute between multiple gangs, and 7 billion people belong to cults which worship them, and make them willing to fight and die for them. The US is the best of a bad lot. It's like being asked to eat the least gross maggot in a bucket of trash, then saying "if you don't like that one, why don't you just eat another one?"
Ok, so you, RK, don't like trump, have no place else to go, but you still want to burn the USA down. Not an perspective I had on my radar, thanks. I was hoping that we would hear from Trump supporters, but since it's an interesting perspective, I have two questions in response to your post.

How do you see blowing up your best option as being different from an astronaut wanting to blow up his spaceship somewhere between the earth and the moon just because they don't like the decorating?

Are their other alternatives you consider?

When I said "it" I didn't mean "it all" (at least not immediately).  I was talking specifically about the US federal government.  I advocate for continual process of decentralization, getting rid of centralized hierarchical control structures and decentralize power as much as possible.  State is better than federal, county better than state, city better than county, neighborhood better than city, individual household better than neighborhood, individual human being better than household.  I always advocate pushing power down in the direction of the individual. Also voluntary is always better than coercive.  Companies, voluntary organizations and groups are always preferable to government agencies. The US federal empire is the antithesis of what I advocate.  Burn it down.

JRM

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Also, I think the easiest rebuttal against the voting machine conspiracy theories is to simply perform a hand recount (which was done).  I don't see any point going down that path any further.

bobozou

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@Williams406

(dammit, I think this now officially a 'debate')

1) I think default-assumption is always important. My (and I think our society's) default assumption when it comes to election-results is that the official-results are generally reliable;  in cases where that's been in-doubt or too-close-to-call, there have been the appropriate actions taken (ie, Bush-v-Gore and even the recounts at various states in 2020).  In other words, regardless of fairness, should we be operating under default assumption that 'official results are generally-right', and burden of proof is on alternative-theory (ie, 'there was above average fraud')?

2) My understanding of 2020 results is that there have been 'above average' level of diligence/audit, on the contested states (ie, didn't Georgia recount their votes more-than-once?  Also, by-hand and by-machine)?  This, combined with the default-assumption above, would seem to generally-be-good-enough, in any election year other than 2020.

I'm trying to understand 'what I'm missing'.  Is the concern around 'how mail-in-ballots skew toward Biden, and showed up later than in-person ballots'?  If so, I'm just looking for a more-comprehensive, more-competent (than I can put together) list of such concerns.

Read the Footnotes

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@JRM or others who think believe there is 'evidence of [above average] election irregularities at a large enough scale...'

Full disclosure:
1) I haven't come across evidence of this, mainly cause I consume (probably) left-leaning mainstream/tech media... and I don't even know where to begin searching for 'credible' evidence of this to form a more-balanced opinion
2) I'm genuinely interested, NOT in engaging in a debate on this (because I don't know the data intimately), but to evaluate-the-evidence (that those who believe the 'election fraud narrative' find compelling), to form my own opinion on the theory

Question:
Are there links (recognizing that they probably won't be 'mainstream') where someone can point me to both the analysis and raw data that suggests 'above average amount of election fraud'?  And to be clear, I think there's probably ALWAYS some base-level of fraud (which varies depending on geographical/historical norms) - but I'd be very appreciative to see the evidence that 'above average fraud happened at national level in 2020'
Awesome post Bobozou. I really like your self-awareness regarding your own sources, and your interest in analysis.

It would be great if JRM or others could post data with analysis so we can broaden our understanding as you suggest.

This is not at all what you asked for Bobozou, but some people might want to review the congressional record for that day. My interpretation is that no one made an accusation of wide scale fraud, but their argument was more of a matter of arguing that since so many people believe that the Trump talking points are true, we should make those people feel better by investigating them. That was the argument from those trying to disrupt the counting. The republican argument for counting was basically let's stop this charade and tell the people the truth, that you can't lie to them and then say you have to take an illegal, extra constitutional action because you lied to them.

Here's the congressional record for that day, if someone would like to debate that interpretation, please be sure to provide quotes:

https://www.congress.gov/117/crec/2021/01/06/CREC-2021-01-06.pdf