Author Topic: America will never be a socialist country!  (Read 2291 times)

Schwab711

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2019, 07:30:08 AM »
Isn't it already? ;)

Only when it comes to progressive taxation, border walls, socialized old age programs, socialized medicine programs, socialized schooling, government ownership of most of the land in some western states, government ownership and control of airports and air traffic control,  government ownership and control of roads and highways, government food and housing programs, and probably a few hundred other things I'm forgetting off the top of my head.

I have a Chinese friend who laughs when people tell him China is communist, his reply is "Who is paying for your kids' school? I am. Go to China and see if someone will educate your kids for free."

From this point of view, the US has been socialist since the first European stepped foot here and you are chasing a fantasy that never existed. At some point you all are just describing civilization. There seems to be this race to prove "I'm the most libertarian!", but in the process you are glossing over the basics of cooperation theory and how a large group of people deal with living together.

But who am I to get in the way of a good political talking point.


rkbabang

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2019, 07:36:09 AM »
Isn't it already? ;)

Only when it comes to progressive taxation, border walls, socialized old age programs, socialized medicine programs, socialized schooling, government ownership of most of the land in some western states, government ownership and control of airports and air traffic control,  government ownership and control of roads and highways, government food and housing programs, and probably a few hundred other things I'm forgetting off the top of my head.

I have a Chinese friend who laughs when people tell him China is communist, his reply is "Who is paying for your kids' school? I am. Go to China and see if someone will educate your kids for free."

From this point of view, the US has been socialist since the first European stepped foot here and you are chasing a fantasy that never existed. At some point you all are just describing civilization. There seems to be this race to prove "I'm the most libertarian!", but in the process you are glossing over the basics of cooperation theory and how a large group of people deal with living together.

But who am I to get in the way of a good political talking point.

Ok. Only none of what you just said is true.

wachtwoord

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2019, 02:35:07 PM »
Isn't it already? ;)

Only when it comes to progressive taxation, border walls, socialized old age programs, socialized medicine programs, socialized schooling, government ownership of most of the land in some western states, government ownership and control of airports and air traffic control,  government ownership and control of roads and highways, government food and housing programs, and probably a few hundred other things I'm forgetting off the top of my head.

I have a Chinese friend who laughs when people tell him China is communist, his reply is "Who is paying for your kids' school? I am. Go to China and see if someone will educate your kids for free."

From this point of view, the US has been socialist since the first European stepped foot here and you are chasing a fantasy that never existed. At some point you all are just describing civilization. There seems to be this race to prove "I'm the most libertarian!", but in the process you are glossing over the basics of cooperation theory and how a large group of people deal with living together.

But who am I to get in the way of a good political talking point.

Ok. Only none of what you just said is true.

The central bank concept contagion only came over from Europe early 20th century iirc, that caused most of the socialism.

@Schwab: you're saying it's a matter of cooperation and civilization. I agree with (and strongly support) cooperation as long as it's voluntary. If it's not it's called coercion and it has little to do with civilization.
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Value^2

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2019, 04:41:13 AM »
There is huge difference, between Trump and Barrack "You didn't build that" 0bama.


Manufacturers Added 6 Times More Jobs Under Trump Than Under Obama's Last 2 Years
Over the past two years, with the encouragement of the Trump Administrationís red-tape cutting policies and the tax cut and reform law passed in December 2017, manufacturers added 467,000 jobs, more than six times the 73,000 manufacturing jobs added in Obamaís last two years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2019/02/01/manufacturers-added-6-times-more-jobs-under-trump-than-under-obamas-last-2-years/#6e03ad35635a

Cigarbutt

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2019, 11:20:56 AM »
There is huge difference, between Trump and Barrack "You didn't build that" 0bama.

Manufacturers Added 6 Times More Jobs Under Trump Than Under Obama's Last 2 Years
Over the past two years, with the encouragement of the Trump Administrationís red-tape cutting policies and the tax cut and reform law passed in December 2017, manufacturers added 467,000 jobs, more than six times the 73,000 manufacturing jobs added in Obamaís last two years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2019/02/01/manufacturers-added-6-times-more-jobs-under-trump-than-under-obamas-last-2-years/#6e03ad35635a
My views likely align with yours more than you can imagine but it's important to look at numbers in a more balanced perspective.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MANEMP

By "choosing" a specific time period and attributing cause and effect without incorporating other major variables such as secular economic trends, weak conclusions can sometimes be reached.

Looking at the long-time graph, an argument could be made that significant, negative and durable changes occurred in the manufacturing sector during periods (Presidents Reagan and GW Bush) when similar policies were applied.

Having said that, since 2016, there has been a change in the short term trend and the longer term will help to attribute the praise or the blame.

LC

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2019, 12:46:26 PM »
It's pretty obvious manufacturing took a nosedive after the 1990s. The US transitioned to a tech and service based economy - frankly we led the world in that regards.

In the decades since, the world has caught up, and consequently we see that manufacturing is coming back as well.

Ebb and flow.

I wouldn't attribute this to a particular president or even a particular policy. This is global economics which nobody can control to any significant degree.
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rukawa

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2019, 07:26:40 PM »
Isn't it already? ;)

Only when it comes to progressive taxation, border walls, socialized old age programs, socialized medicine programs, socialized schooling, government ownership of most of the land in some western states, government ownership and control of airports and air traffic control,  government ownership and control of roads and highways, government food and housing programs, and probably a few hundred other things I'm forgetting off the top of my head.

I have a Chinese friend who laughs when people tell him China is communist, his reply is "Who is paying for your kids' school? I am. Go to China and see if someone will educate your kids for free."

From this point of view, the US has been socialist since the first European stepped foot here and you are chasing a fantasy that never existed. At some point you all are just describing civilization. There seems to be this race to prove "I'm the most libertarian!", but in the process you are glossing over the basics of cooperation theory and how a large group of people deal with living together.

But who am I to get in the way of a good political talking point.

Ok. Only none of what you just said is true.

That's a pretty polite response to a statement that is mind-bogglingly wrong.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 07:34:09 PM by rukawa »

rkbabang

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2019, 06:52:01 AM »
Isn't it already? ;)

Only when it comes to progressive taxation, border walls, socialized old age programs, socialized medicine programs, socialized schooling, government ownership of most of the land in some western states, government ownership and control of airports and air traffic control,  government ownership and control of roads and highways, government food and housing programs, and probably a few hundred other things I'm forgetting off the top of my head.

I have a Chinese friend who laughs when people tell him China is communist, his reply is "Who is paying for your kids' school? I am. Go to China and see if someone will educate your kids for free."

From this point of view, the US has been socialist since the first European stepped foot here and you are chasing a fantasy that never existed. At some point you all are just describing civilization. There seems to be this race to prove "I'm the most libertarian!", but in the process you are glossing over the basics of cooperation theory and how a large group of people deal with living together.

But who am I to get in the way of a good political talking point.

Ok. Only none of what you just said is true.

That's a pretty polite response to a statement that is mind-bogglingly wrong.

What can I say? I'm a nice guy.   :)

Truth is, I didn't even know where to start.  I could go point by point and list the years those things I listed where implemented 1913 for income tax / central banking (yes the us flirted with it a few times previously)  new deal / war on poverty for many of the others (long after nation was settled), but yeah, but the thought of composing a reasonable reply to an unreasonable assertion was exhausting.

The actual history of the settling of this continent is fascinating and well worth studying.  I can't recommend Rothbard's "Conceived in Liberty" enough.  The entire 1673 page, 4 volume set, is available all together in one Kindle book for $4.99.
https://www.amazon.com/Conceived-Liberty-LvMI-Murray-Rothbard-ebook/dp/B004KZPJBQ

EDIT: Also, there are plenty of good history books dealing with the Revolution and after, but if anyone knows of any other good well researched books dealing with the period between Columbus and the Revolution (the period "Conceived in Liberty" covers in detail) I'd love to hear about them.  It is a fascinating period that you don't learn about in school. I think I'm going to re-read "Conceived in Liberty" since it's been a long time since I've read it.  Or maybe I'll try the audio book.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 07:08:24 AM by rkbabang »

Cigarbutt

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2019, 08:44:58 AM »
For those interested, Mr. Rothbard's work is readily available through the Mises institute:
https://mises-media.s3.amazonaws.com/Conceived%20in%20Liberty_Rothbard.pdf

I've always been haunted by the way humans define 'justice' and have also enjoyed stuff written by Mr. Stiglitz about market and government failures. Example:
https://www.tobinproject.org/sites/tobinproject.org/files/assets/New_Perspectives_Ch1_Stiglitz.pdf

If interested in the foundational period and can cope with a perspective that goes beyond the pure American Experience:
https://www.amazon.com/American-Colonies-Settling-America-Penguin-ebook/dp/B002DBIO2U

rkbabang

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Re: America will never be a socialist country!
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2019, 10:17:57 AM »
For those interested, Mr. Rothbard's work is readily available through the Mises institute:
https://mises-media.s3.amazonaws.com/Conceived%20in%20Liberty_Rothbard.pdf

I've always been haunted by the way humans define 'justice' and have also enjoyed stuff written by Mr. Stiglitz about market and government failures. Example:
https://www.tobinproject.org/sites/tobinproject.org/files/assets/New_Perspectives_Ch1_Stiglitz.pdf

If interested in the foundational period and can cope with a perspective that goes beyond the pure American Experience:
https://www.amazon.com/American-Colonies-Settling-America-Penguin-ebook/dp/B002DBIO2U

Thanks.  The "American Colonies" book looks interesting.  A different perspective.   I just bought it.