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General Category => Politics => Topic started by: rukawa on February 28, 2018, 08:32:50 PM

Title: South Africa is doomed
Post by: rukawa on February 28, 2018, 08:32:50 PM
I kind of new it was heading in this direction but confirms that in 20 years it will be Hell on Earth. Ronald Reagan was right not to support the ANC because it was filled with commies:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5443599/White-South-African-farmers-removed-land.html

Another leftist inspired disaster.
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: wachtwoord on March 01, 2018, 01:11:05 AM
Fully agree. Stealing property and awarding it to the the incompetent. What could go wrong? Next up: nation wide femine.

Can you smell the hypocrisy in the air? :p
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: petec on March 01, 2018, 01:55:33 AM
While I am dead against the forced redistribution of land to those that don't have the skill to make it productive (a la Zimbabwe), I'd have more sympathy for the property rights argument if the whites had ever respected it (other than amongst themselves). Colonialisation and apartheid resulted in extremely unequal allocation of natural resources and wealth. If that is not addressed, SA will explode into a revolution. If it is addressed, property rights need to be trodden on and productive assets will be given to unskilled people. It's a lose-lose situation. Education is the only winning solution but it takes time and there's no cash/too much corruption.

That said, this isn't Zimbabwe (yet). Property rights as they relate to businesses etc. aren't under threat and we don't know how/how much this law will be used, which is key. What really matters is how the law is worded (i.e. whether exporpriation can only occur under specific and extreme circumstances) and whether it is used all the time or infrequently/as a last resort. Time will tell but Ramaphosa looks like he might be the most sensible president since Mandela (OK, low bar I know) so we shall see.

On the more positive side, the continued progress of the DA and the slow splintering of the ANC could be very good for SA democracy. I hate what the ANC has become and I truly hope it breaks up in the next decade.
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: wachtwoord on March 01, 2018, 03:04:30 AM
Land should not be divided equal. All human civilizations have a pyramid shapes distribution, it's "natural". Same is true in the animal kingdom e.g species distribution in habitats.

Regarding South Africa: yes the redistribution is all but certain plunging the country back on the level of most countries in their continent. It will be right what they deserve for their retardation and hypocrisy.

Btw the distribution is not that different from Europe where the initial distribution was done through aggression by kings, warlords and associated nobility. This is still where a large part of the (old) wealth is today. Is it right? There's no answer to that, but it sure is a lot better than assigning it to a bunch of incompetent snowflakes.
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: petec on March 01, 2018, 04:19:03 AM
Nothing should be divided equally; things should be divided according to talent and work ethic, with a safety net for the genuinely unlucky. Europe has been evolving towards that for hundreds of years. It's not perfect by any means. But it's not South Africa, where the majority of the population were actively and violently denied the ability to accumulate wealth via honest means because of their skin colour right up until 24 years ago. I live in Europe and I travel to SA regularly. They could not be more different.

I am no fan of this law and I am not defending it. But, before you attack it, suggest another solution that doesn't ultimately result in revolution. A gradual policy of free market wealth creation allied with moderate redistribution via tax spent on education and good housing would be a wonderful thing, but the ANC is too corrupt and inept to implement it and the population, understandably, too impatient.

Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: wachtwoord on March 01, 2018, 05:15:16 AM
Live with the current situation which will gradually develop into a more optimal subdivision, just like in Europe. Yes they are behind, but only time can fix that. And stop playing the discrimination card. In Europe people were treated unfairly for similarly unfair reasons. It's a non-factor in this discussion.

Doing what they are doing will simply reset them to the middle ages. All the skilled people will leave a nation that proves its not trustworthy to such an incredible degree.
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: petec on March 01, 2018, 06:14:10 AM
Live with the current situation which will gradually develop into a more optimal subdivision, just like in Europe. Yes they are behind, but only time can fix that. And stop playing the discrimination card. In Europe people were treated unfairly for similarly unfair reasons.

Europe -in aggregate - had the luxury of moving from dictatorships to universal sufferage slowly over several centuries. That diffused pressures. South Africa became a democracy overnight. It doesn't have that luxury. Governments will fall unless they generate progress fast enough to be noticed - in other words, you probably need to see visible change over every ten year period in order not to have a revolt.

It's a non-factor in this discussion.

Easy to say when you (presumably) have a roof, food, clean water, security, and healthcare for your babies. If you didn't, discrimination would probably feel like a very present problem to you.

Your solution - even if it would work over generations - has a huge immediate human cost (millions remain in poverty for a long time) and therefore won't work in a democracy.

Their solution - destroying property rights - has a huge future human cost but can be packaged by snake-oil salesmen as a good thing. That works all too well in a democracy - temporarily.

Doing what they are doing will simply reset them to the middle ages. All the skilled people will leave a nation that proves its not trustworthy to such an incredible degree.

That's a serious risk - although it's been happening for years. My sense though is that with the DA making progress, and Africa as a whole making (slow) progress, SA probably won't slip too far. But it is on a knife edge.
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: no_free_lunch on March 01, 2018, 06:33:38 AM

I am no fan of this law and I am not defending it. But, before you attack it, suggest another solution that doesn't ultimately result in revolution. A gradual policy of free market wealth creation allied with moderate redistribution via tax spent on education and good housing would be a wonderful thing, but the ANC is too corrupt and inept to implement it and the population, understandably, too impatient.


All I know is moving backwards on property rights will lead to an ever smaller pie to re-distribute.
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: Packer16 on March 01, 2018, 06:38:49 AM
One observation is that the companies of South Africa (at least the ones I have been looking at) have a diverse management team in terms of race & a culture of shareholder value.  There is also an over 100 year history of free enterprise history is SA.  Very different from lets say the typical pillage & run with money to someplace else attitude in some Frontier markets where there is no history.  Hopefully, the guys in power realize this & will not kill the golden goose.  Also, I believe the portion that agriculture contributes to SA economy is smaller than other African nations so if this happens then the impact will be smaller than countries where agriculture is a larger part of the economy.  The headline impact is definately not a positive.

Packer 
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: DTEJD1997 on March 01, 2018, 06:50:10 AM
Hey all:

Very disturbing news out of SA indeed...

So far, it is all just talk?

HOWEVER, should any of this be implemented, I imagine there would be violence.

Once there is violence, this will make bigger headlines.  Will Universities & religious organizations divest from SA?  Will there be an international outcry?

What will happen to their tourism industry?  If SA is taking white farms & land by force, what white person in their right mind would travel or set foot in that country?  Given the choice, who would have anything to do with it?

Will other countries take action against SA?  Will SA face international sanctions?

Who would want to hold stock in a company in SA?  Once the people in power decide they want white farms....how long until international investors get kicked out?  How long till mines & industry is nationalized?

How long until there is complete collapse?
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: rkbabang on March 01, 2018, 10:21:38 AM
This is why every human being has the right to keep and bear arms.  And not just revolvers and shotguns.
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: rukawa on March 01, 2018, 12:40:03 PM
I am no fan of this law and I am not defending it. But, before you attack it, suggest another solution that doesn't ultimately result in revolution. A gradual policy of free market wealth creation allied with moderate redistribution via tax spent on education and good housing would be a wonderful thing, but the ANC is too corrupt and inept to implement it and the population, understandably, too impatient.

As far as I can see there is nothing that can be done to avoid a Zimbabwe or worse type scenario. The appropriate solution would have been to have educated the blacks with very good schools but takes time and they are out of time now.

HOWEVER, should any of this be implemented, I imagine there would be violence.

Once there is violence, this will make bigger headlines. 

There already is tonnes of violence and nobody cares. Of course part of the reason might be that South Africa has violence everywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: DTEJD1997 on March 08, 2018, 10:36:39 PM
Rukawa:

Yes, there is a lot of violence in S. Africa currently.  It is a shame that it does not make the news.

In my earlier post, I was thinking of "industrial scale" violence...a level 10X or more of what we are seeing today.

Are there enough white farmers, do they have enough arms, and are the willing to use them that there would be violence on this scale?

Also, where are all the "social justice warriors"?  I would think that they would be against what is currently going on and what could potentially happen in S. Africa.

Of course, maybe they are just left wing hypocrites?

The crazy thing is, this will help NOBODY except for those at the VERY tops of power.

Zimbabwe has an economy that is non-functional.  Unemployment is estimated at 70% to 90%.  Zimbabwe can't produce enough food to feed it's own people, let alone give them a chance out of poverty.

Is S. Africa doomed to follow in their footsteps?  I certainly hope not.

 
Title: Re: South Africa is doomed
Post by: rukawa on March 09, 2018, 10:21:06 PM
Rukawa:

Yes, there is a lot of violence in S. Africa currently.  It is a shame that it does not make the news.

In my earlier post, I was thinking of "industrial scale" violence...a level 10X or more of what we are seeing today.

Are there enough white farmers, do they have enough arms, and are the willing to use them that there would be violence on this scale?

Also, where are all the "social justice warriors"?  I would think that they would be against what is currently going on and what could potentially happen in S. Africa.

Of course, maybe they are just left wing hypocrites?

The crazy thing is, this will help NOBODY except for those at the VERY tops of power.

Zimbabwe has an economy that is non-functional.  Unemployment is estimated at 70% to 90%.  Zimbabwe can't produce enough food to feed it's own people, let alone give them a chance out of poverty.

Is S. Africa doomed to follow in their footsteps?  I certainly hope not.

Packer made an interesting point that farming is less economically important in South Africa. It may be that you can freely kill off or terrorize the farmers in South Africa and everybody can keep going without it destroying the country. They will just become a food importer.

After all America fairly successfully did that to Native Indians (e.g. Trail of Tears) and practiced Slavery for decades without disintegrating. So it might be possible to systematically oppress a relatively economically unimportant group without the country turning into hell on Earth.

So maybe my conclusion is too extreme.