Author Topic: State of the Nation  (Read 14981 times)

stahleyp

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #320 on: February 16, 2020, 12:55:02 PM »
Paul,
I believe you said that your empathy comes from God.  Are the narcissist and psychopath then merely Godless people?

And would then an autistic person with empathy difficulties also merely suffer from Godlessness?

Eric

Pyschopaths know right from wrong but they don't have the emotional attachment that we peons do.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2840845/

If I had to guess, I would say that folks with autism get a free pass (or bonus points) to heaven since they don't know any better (like a child would).


Paul


ERICOPOLY

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #321 on: February 16, 2020, 02:19:08 PM »
Paul,
I believe you said that your empathy comes from God.  Are the narcissist and psychopath then merely Godless people?

And would then an autistic person with empathy difficulties also merely suffer from Godlessness?

Eric

Pyschopaths know right from wrong but they don't have the emotional attachment that we peons do.


You previously said that they have as much 'insight' as others do.  I believe that they are lacking insight without experiencing emotions as others do.  If everyone were psychopath society would break down and there would be no morality, for morality is based upon what is good not just for oneself but for society as a whole.  And not just what is good for the Christians, but for everyone (including the gay married couple).

Having a society within a society is problematic and this is one of the problems:  when somebody wishes to live by the morals of their Christian society instead of the morals of their American society.  Such as taking a child bride or protesting  the marriage of gays.

I'm not finding any articles saying that atheism is behind child brides.  I will posit that morality comes from society, and the society of Christianity is different from secular society, and different from Muslim society.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 02:25:49 PM by ERICOPOLY »

LC

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #322 on: February 16, 2020, 02:28:46 PM »
Quote
Do you have any evidence that a restaurant owner allowed someone to use a water fountain but would not serve them food?

It was a hypothetical but I can do you one better:

https://www.npr.org/2014/12/13/370470745/forced-to-seat-blacks-ala-restaurant-complied-with-history

The majority of Ollie's employees were black, and McClung says they had some regular black customers, but as was the norm when segregation was the law, they were only served take-out. When the Civil Rights Act went into effect, McClung and his dad were concerned that seating blacks would drive away white patrons. So they sued.


I guess this was OK in your eyes because these restaurants would still serve black customers, they were just protesting the action of blacks and whites sitting and eating together.

What a load of racist and bigoted crap that you are trying to defend. It is frankly disgusting and beneath you!

Quote
Their morality drives their behavior. Are you telling me that if you had kids and your teacher was attracted to your child you would be totally okay with it as long as they didn't do anything to your child?  :o
I think as a general course of action, pedophiles should not be around kids. You might want to pass up that message to the Catholic church.

BUT - sexual attraction is not morality!
Take the case of homosexuality - are gay people MORALLY different than straight people just because they have different sexual attractions? Of course not - and anyone who says differently is a bigot!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 02:32:02 PM by LC »
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stahleyp

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #323 on: February 17, 2020, 07:08:09 AM »
Quote
Do you have any evidence that a restaurant owner allowed someone to use a water fountain but would not serve them food?

It was a hypothetical but I can do you one better:

https://www.npr.org/2014/12/13/370470745/forced-to-seat-blacks-ala-restaurant-complied-with-history

The majority of Ollie's employees were black, and McClung says they had some regular black customers, but as was the norm when segregation was the law, they were only served take-out. When the Civil Rights Act went into effect, McClung and his dad were concerned that seating blacks would drive away white patrons. So they sued.


I guess this was OK in your eyes because these restaurants would still serve black customers, they were just protesting the action of blacks and whites sitting and eating together.

What a load of racist and bigoted crap that you are trying to defend. It is frankly disgusting and beneath you!

There is nothing above me or beneath me since there is no higher level of morality! ;)

Were these folks discriminating based on violating their conscience?

Quote
Their morality drives their behavior. Are you telling me that if you had kids and your teacher was attracted to your child you would be totally okay with it as long as they didn't do anything to your child?  :o
I think as a general course of action, pedophiles should not be around kids. You might want to pass up that message to the Catholic church.

BUT - sexual attraction is not morality!
Take the case of homosexuality - are gay people MORALLY different than straight people just because they have different sexual attractions? Of course not - and anyone who says differently is a bigot!
[/quote]

Pedophilia is a sexual attraction. If it is ever considered a sexual orientation, would you support their discrimination then? What if you wanted your child to not have a teacher like that and you were labeled a bigot?

Like I said to Eric, you think discrimination is "bad." The baker things gay marriage is "bad." Neither of you are right (or wrong!) since there is no higher level of morality. It's just an opinion - like best color.

Look at your insistence that it's "wrong" for the Chinese to detain and "re-educate" religious minorities. Why would you think that you have any more moral insight than your atheist brethren? The only thing I can think of (again, I'm not very creative!) is that you think people have all of these "rights" because that's what you've been taught. It has no claim in reality.

Paul

stahleyp

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #324 on: February 17, 2020, 07:55:34 AM »
Paul,
I believe you said that your empathy comes from God.  Are the narcissist and psychopath then merely Godless people?

And would then an autistic person with empathy difficulties also merely suffer from Godlessness?

Eric

Pyschopaths know right from wrong but they don't have the emotional attachment that we peons do.


You previously said that they have as much 'insight' as others do.  I believe that they are lacking insight without experiencing emotions as others do.  If everyone were psychopath society would break down and there would be no morality, for morality is based upon what is good not just for oneself but for society as a whole.  And not just what is good for the Christians, but for everyone (including the gay married couple).

Having a society within a society is problematic and this is one of the problems:  when somebody wishes to live by the morals of their Christian society instead of the morals of their American society.  Such as taking a child bride or protesting  the marriage of gays.

I'm not finding any articles saying that atheism is behind child brides.  I will posit that morality comes from society, and the society of Christianity is different from secular society, and different from Muslim society.

Yes, they have as much if not more insight than normal people do. I relate to it like market forecasting. A lot of people just "know" what the market will do - just like we "know" what action is moral. However, no one knows what the market will do and no one really knows what actions are truly moral (since there aren't any moral truths). But the person with the disorder actually sees what reality is (all moral actions are equal) and doesn't get bogged down by the emotional reactions that bog down proper thinking.

And if morality does, ultimately from society, it's quite silly to think that secular vs Muslim vs Christian vs Hindu society is anymore "right" than the other when you remove personal bias (and experience) from your decision making.

How many Christians think it's okay to have child brides? I'd would imagine the numbers are not far off from Westboro crew (which is basically just one family).

If atheism is true, there is nothing wrong with it. Some of us are evolutionary wired to like women, some men, some children, some animals and some corpses.
Paul

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #325 on: February 17, 2020, 08:55:57 AM »
Paul,
I believe you said that your empathy comes from God.  Are the narcissist and psychopath then merely Godless people?

And would then an autistic person with empathy difficulties also merely suffer from Godlessness?

Eric

Pyschopaths know right from wrong but they don't have the emotional attachment that we peons do.


You previously said that they have as much 'insight' as others do.  I believe that they are lacking insight without experiencing emotions as others do.  If everyone were psychopath society would break down and there would be no morality, for morality is based upon what is good not just for oneself but for society as a whole.  And not just what is good for the Christians, but for everyone (including the gay married couple).

Having a society within a society is problematic and this is one of the problems:  when somebody wishes to live by the morals of their Christian society instead of the morals of their American society.  Such as taking a child bride or protesting  the marriage of gays.

I'm not finding any articles saying that atheism is behind child brides.  I will posit that morality comes from society, and the society of Christianity is different from secular society, and different from Muslim society.

Yes, they have as much if not more insight than normal people do. I relate to it like market forecasting. A lot of people just "know" what the market will do - just like we "know" what action is moral. However, no one knows what the market will do and no one really knows what actions are truly moral (since there aren't any moral truths). But the person with the disorder actually sees what reality is (all moral actions are equal) and doesn't get bogged down by the emotional reactions that bog down proper thinking.

And if morality does, ultimately from society, it's quite silly to think that secular vs Muslim vs Christian vs Hindu society is anymore "right" than the other when you remove personal bias (and experience) from your decision making.

How many Christians think it's okay to have child brides? I'd would imagine the numbers are not far off from Westboro crew (which is basically just one family).

If atheism is true, there is nothing wrong with it. Some of us are evolutionary wired to like women, some men, some children, some animals and some corpses.

Your argument then boils down to this:

Morals, which come from society, should not apply to the individual who lives in that society because the morals are different than those of other societies.  You are sounding like someone who does not get on with others because you believe you do not need to adhere to rule of society whenever it differs from that of another and when it suits you personally.

Perhaps that book of yours has taught you that morals are absolute and that it gives you the right to be a thorn in society's side when progressive morals are advanced by society.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 08:58:49 AM by ERICOPOLY »

LC

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #326 on: February 17, 2020, 10:46:19 AM »
“ Like I said to Eric, you think discrimination is "bad." The baker things gay marriage is "bad." Neither of you are right (or wrong!) since there is no higher level of morality. It's just an opinion - like best color.”

The same thing happens every time this discussion comes up. You argument fails on every single front (as recently illustrated with the southern restaurant comparison) and, battered and bruised, your ultimate fall back to this position of moral relativism. Which has been refuted since the days of PLATO and even before!

But if that’s the broken leg you choose to stand on, then it looks like the pigeon wins yet again!
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stahleyp

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #327 on: February 18, 2020, 09:32:45 AM »
Paul,
I believe you said that your empathy comes from God.  Are the narcissist and psychopath then merely Godless people?

And would then an autistic person with empathy difficulties also merely suffer from Godlessness?

Eric

Pyschopaths know right from wrong but they don't have the emotional attachment that we peons do.


You previously said that they have as much 'insight' as others do.  I believe that they are lacking insight without experiencing emotions as others do.  If everyone were psychopath society would break down and there would be no morality, for morality is based upon what is good not just for oneself but for society as a whole.  And not just what is good for the Christians, but for everyone (including the gay married couple).

Having a society within a society is problematic and this is one of the problems:  when somebody wishes to live by the morals of their Christian society instead of the morals of their American society.  Such as taking a child bride or protesting  the marriage of gays.

I'm not finding any articles saying that atheism is behind child brides.  I will posit that morality comes from society, and the society of Christianity is different from secular society, and different from Muslim society.

Yes, they have as much if not more insight than normal people do. I relate to it like market forecasting. A lot of people just "know" what the market will do - just like we "know" what action is moral. However, no one knows what the market will do and no one really knows what actions are truly moral (since there aren't any moral truths). But the person with the disorder actually sees what reality is (all moral actions are equal) and doesn't get bogged down by the emotional reactions that bog down proper thinking.

And if morality does, ultimately from society, it's quite silly to think that secular vs Muslim vs Christian vs Hindu society is anymore "right" than the other when you remove personal bias (and experience) from your decision making.

How many Christians think it's okay to have child brides? I'd would imagine the numbers are not far off from Westboro crew (which is basically just one family).

If atheism is true, there is nothing wrong with it. Some of us are evolutionary wired to like women, some men, some children, some animals and some corpses.

Your argument then boils down to this:

Morals, which come from society, should not apply to the individual who lives in that society because the morals are different than those of other societies.  You are sounding like someone who does not get on with others because you believe you do not need to adhere to rule of society whenever it differs from that of another and when it suits you personally.

Perhaps that book of yours has taught you that morals are absolute and that it gives you the right to be a thorn in society's side when progressive morals are advanced by society.

Isn't that what independent thinking is? Not following the rest of society? Look at the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. His society thought their actions were good and he disagreed. He was a pastor that fought against the Nazis in WWII. He escaped to America, went back to fight and was hanged shortly before the end of the war. If atheism is true, his evolutionary instincts totally screwed him over. He should have stayed in the US and enjoyed himself. There is no moral truth, after all!

I like to compare Bonhoeffer to Epstein. If atheism is accurate, Epstein lived (by far!) the better life:

Bonhoeffer died at 39 (not his choice)
Epstein died at 66 (maybe his choice but who knows)

Bonhoeffer hung out with clergy
Epstein hung out with billionaires and world leaders (and supermodels)

Bonhoeffer (probably) died a virgin
Epstein had many, many, many partners

Bonhoeffer was not rich (no evidence that I can find that he was)
Epstein was very rich

Seriously, why would anyone admire Bonhoeffer over Epstein if all of these "morals" are really just evolutionary chemicals floating around?

I'm not trying to be a torn in anyone's side but I really do hate the term "progressive". It assumes that the liberal viewpoint is progress. I don't think there really is such a thing if atheism holds true. For instance, Hitler thought "progress" was eliminating Jews or advancing the concerns of a certain race. If they would have won, society would be talking about how much "progress" had been made since WWII by eliminating all sorts of "undesirables."

So yes, I do think morality is an absolute - even if societies don't quite live up to that.
Paul

stahleyp

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #328 on: February 18, 2020, 09:34:30 AM »
“ Like I said to Eric, you think discrimination is "bad." The baker things gay marriage is "bad." Neither of you are right (or wrong!) since there is no higher level of morality. It's just an opinion - like best color.”

The same thing happens every time this discussion comes up. You argument fails on every single front (as recently illustrated with the southern restaurant comparison) and, battered and bruised, your ultimate fall back to this position of moral relativism. Which has been refuted since the days of PLATO and even before!

But if that’s the broken leg you choose to stand on, then it looks like the pigeon wins yet again!

If it fails on "ever single front" why does no one calling me out on it when I ask if my thinking is irrational. I've also answered the Plato objection in the past and I think it's a poor refutation of morality given what we've learned since his time.
Paul

ERICOPOLY

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #329 on: February 18, 2020, 11:33:13 AM »
Isn't that what independent thinking is? Not following the rest of society?

Rrrrright... bigots are just free thinkers?