Author Topic: The End of DACA  (Read 16428 times)

Gregmal

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 07:35:43 PM »
Some of the comments here are so callous.  They scream, “This doesn’t impact me or anyone I know so I don’t care.”  Reminds me of the guy in my office who wants to attack North Korea.  He’s all for it until I ask how much he’s personally willing to contribute or if he’d gladly volunteer to put his son or daughter in harms way.  Equating robbing a bank or sneaking into a sports venue to someone coming to the US for a better life is absurd.  If this is all about law and order, many must still be angered by those who broke laws escaping Europe during WWII, or those escaping the Middle East and North Africa today. 

Now that I’ve surely stirred up some hate, I must say this issue is being oversold by the left and right.  The left wants to create the narrative that ICE will be breaking down doors and deporting model “citizens” in droves.  The right wants to sell the idea that these “criminals” will face justice.  It’s just not going to happen.  The money, man power and public sentiment are not there for this to happen.  Trump said as much today, something to the effect of it won’t be a law enforcement priority.  Although Trump's move was purely political, I’m somewhat optimistic that this policy change will force congress’s hand to finally pass some type of bi-partisan immigration reform.

Except to many, if not most, it does. Who pays the hospital bills of these illegal folks? How about their schooling? Surely the taxpayer. What about the local contractor who can't stay in business because he can't compete with the next dude going to HD and picking up a half dozen workers for $500. Meanwhile that sucker is paying $15+ an hour, employment and healthcare taxes, etc hiring legal citizens. What a fool, right? The ripple effects are all over

Bottom line is if you ignore/disrespect the laws of the land you set a horrible precedent. Additionally, you create a burden for the people who do it the right way. Why, so you can make things easier/fairer/whatever for freeloaders? There are enough legal avenues to come to the US that there is no excuse IMO for any of this nonsense. This reminds me of the town I grew up in where kids who lived in the sh*tholes would shack up with a 3rd cousin and then use that address to attend the public schools. Yea, real fair to the folks paying $20,000 a year in property taxes to have students attend for free because his parents were dishonest. This is the same thing just on a larger scale.


valcont

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 07:47:02 PM »
Reminds me of the guy in my office who wants to attack North Korea.  He’s all for it until I ask how much he’s personally willing to contribute or if he’d gladly volunteer to put his son or daughter in harms way. 

How about you follow your own principle and provide shelter,employment to an illegal alien. We'll see how committed you are to the cause. Its one thing to grandstand on the back of your fellow countrymen, the reality sets in when you face the consequences.

vox

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2017, 07:59:04 PM »
It also has to do with the simple premise of following and enforcing the laws of the land. As someone previously, and incorrectly asserted, no you don't send them back to make people who did it the right way happy, you do it because if you create a system where you reward breaking the law, no one will follow it.

Immigration laws are already arbitrary. Up until January 2017, if you were a Cuban citizen and stepped foot on United States soil, you would be granted expedited legal permanent resident status. Should these Cubans be deported because they were legally favored over other lawful immigrants?

Cigarbutt

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2017, 08:25:57 PM »
Not that it does necessarily matter to anyone, I have been "wrestling" with this tough question.

Like any tough calls (from ethics to investment thesis analysis), it may be helpful to look at the issue from different perspectives and multiple dimensions.

Slow thinking and opportunistic action have been the modus operandi.

So, shared here is an element of objective information that may help some to crystallize an opinion.

Recently, in Canada, there came the 2016 Jordan Ruling from the Supreme Court. In a few words, the Ruling states that the case of a law offender should be handled and concluded within reasonable time, without unreasonable delay. Precise quantitative timelines are now prescribed.

---The Ruling has had immediate consequences as charges (some very significant) were dropped in many cases.

Note:

-implications for those who ended up with adverse judgements, in part, because they were counseled to proceed efficiently versus those who were in fact guilty but were free to go, in part, because their counsel was efficient in delaying procedures.

---The Ruling is considered to be a wake-up call to the Judicial System in terms of its organization and efficiency.


My understanding is that the Dream Act was initially introduced in Congress in 2001, followed a convoluted course and ended in the twilight zone around 2010.

My understanding is that the then President, through (---take your pick---) 1-“an exercise of prosecutorial discretion” or 2-“an inappropriate use of executive power”, DACA came along in 2012.

My understanding is that today is September 5, 2017 and the new deadline for Congress is March 5, 2018.

Not so simple after all.

Cardboard

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2017, 08:32:58 PM »
It is actually very simple. The line has to be drawn somewhere and that is the case with every law. It will please some and not others and that is the way it is in a civilized society.

Draw the line, then enforce it. Making exceptions only guarantees chaos.

Cardboard

Cigarbutt

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2017, 08:43:37 PM »
I would say that chaos is a word that has often been associated with Congress (apologies to American friends but it's Google's fault).

This is only speculation on my part, but my opinion is that President Trump is trying to somehow find a compromise on this exceptional issue.

Also, with laws, lines in the sand move slowly, but they move.

Parsad

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2017, 09:18:55 PM »
A fake issue courtesy mainstream media and Democrat's echo chambers. Its amazing how the Democrats/media tie some issues (like illegal immigration) to empathy/kindness and want the government's action when they can't win on the legal basis. But some like abortion has to be left alone to choice.

There are two elements to DACA. One is the issue of these children(although the oldest one is 36 yr old, another inconvenient fact ignored) who were brought here and the other is the illegal act committed by their parents/guardian. If I rob a bank to feed my child , that doesn't mean that both of us should get reprieve. The Republican's solution is fair. Give the children the legal status but make sure that the illegal act is not encouraged. Democrats/Media aided by the cheap labor capitalists only wants to focus on the former. And anyone who wants to support both is termed as racist/cruel/small minded. No wonder Trump won. Both parties are hypocritical in their approach but Trump stands out. He is very clear on these issues and takes a firm stand. I am no fan of Trump but I do think his supporters must be very happy that they voted for someone who is actually delivering on the promises.

The better metaphor is, if you rob a bank and stuff the proceeds in a trust set up for your kids, why should the kids have to give the money back and pay for their parents sins? The truth is, it was never theirs to begin with. Same goes for citizenship. Just because they've been here, doesn't mean they should have been and doesn't mean that at some point the chickens don't come home to roost. Sorry.

Immigration is so head scratching in regards to how not everybody is on the same page. It's black and white. There is an outlined process. It amazes me how many people sympathize with crooks and law breakers and excuse their behaviors when there is a very easy and simply path to do it the right way.

This is so far from the correct analogy that it is mind-boggling that intelligent people can take this viewpoint.  In your example, the robber's children are living where they grew up, with people they know, in a culture they know and an environment that they understand.  These young people may be deported to countries they haven't stepped foot in since they were young children.  The correct analogy would be that your father or mother robbed a bank and the child's hand is chopped off.  Don't break it down or equate it simply to financial cost...you know it's not truly comparable!  Cheers!
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Parsad

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2017, 09:27:51 PM »
I understand the problems with illegal immigration in the U.S. and these issues/flaws have festered through multiple presidential terms, but I have to say that the current planned termination of DACA with no "American" solution for these young people is disheartening.  I don't recognize my neighbors to the south anymore.  They were children when they came here...why are they paying for their parent's sins.  Can Trump imagine his children or grand-children paying for his sins?  Cheers!

Is that fair to legal immigrants who have done everything right and paying tax every single year and still patiently waiting for green cards after many many years?

My uncle married a wonderful women from the Philippines.  They had known each other for many years.  It took them a while to get married...filling out TONS of forms & paperwork...lot of government interviews...a lot of hassle, A LOT OF MONEY.  Then it took even longer and even more money for them to legally bring her children over to the USA.  The children were separated from their mother for over a year!

HOWEVER, they did everything legally, "by the book".  It took years and TENS of thousands of dollars.  This was/is a VERY substantial amount of money for my uncle.

What fools they were!  Just should have gone to Mexico or Canada and come across the border.

Can my uncle and his family get a refund?  What about others? 

Why are there two sets of laws in the USA?

There aren't two sets of laws.  The law simply wasn't enforced...across multiple presidential terms.  It's not a new problem.

But if the law wasn't properly enforced, you don't simply enforce it unilaterally and retroactively.  There is a human component here!  And if the human component doesn't exist for some, then perhaps introspection is truly warranted.

My family immigrated to Canada legally, as did all of our relatives.  For some, it took many, many years and significant cost. 

That being said, I cannot imagine turning the world upside down for so many productive people...not just a handful...because their parents took a short-cut.  Deportation of their parents is penalty enough, is it not?  Cheers!
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Parsad

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2017, 09:34:09 PM »
Some of the comments here are so callous.  They scream, “This doesn’t impact me or anyone I know so I don’t care.”  Reminds me of the guy in my office who wants to attack North Korea.  He’s all for it until I ask how much he’s personally willing to contribute or if he’d gladly volunteer to put his son or daughter in harms way.  Equating robbing a bank or sneaking into a sports venue to someone coming to the US for a better life is absurd.  If this is all about law and order, many must still be angered by those who broke laws escaping Europe during WWII, or those escaping the Middle East and North Africa today. 

Now that I’ve surely stirred up some hate, I must say this issue is being oversold by the left and right.  The left wants to create the narrative that ICE will be breaking down doors and deporting model “citizens” in droves.  The right wants to sell the idea that these “criminals” will face justice.  It’s just not going to happen.  The money, man power and public sentiment are not there for this to happen.  Trump said as much today, something to the effect of it won’t be a law enforcement priority.  Although Trump's move was purely political, I’m somewhat optimistic that this policy change will force congress’s hand to finally pass some type of bi-partisan immigration reform.

+1!  I agree with you on both items.

The problem is that Obama tried to get Congress to address this issue, and it never was, thus DACA.  And we've seen this with Obamacare as well.  Trump  is simply passing the buck to Congress...no attempt to actually lead a nation and find a solution.  Cheers!
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SharperDingaan

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2017, 05:33:36 AM »
Every country sets its own rules and enforcement, but it is not a given that enforcement will be even - or even applied.

Like it or not, immigration is competitive.
A highly desirable immigrant is welcome everywhere, and has the ability to choose; if you aren't white, or you have a 'funny sounding name' - the US is a lot lower on your list than it used to be. The best go elsewhere; and it is better for both them, their families, and the society they choose to settle in.   

Most folks would have applied the change to DACA prospectively. What's already happened is done, whether we like it or not.
Choosing retroactive application is deliberately provocative, and it seldom ends well.

Sadly this is pretty 'normal' for the US.
Canada has long been a destination for US based migrants - the underground railway (Haitians fleeing across the border, southern black slaves, etc.) and the Vietnam draft-dodgers being more recent examples. Pretty much every episode also ended badly for the progenitors.

SD