Author Topic: The End of DACA  (Read 17582 times)

DTEJD1997

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2017, 04:27:56 PM »
For those seeking a legal analogy, the better one is probably adverse possession.  A person enters property that is not legally theirs but they maintain/improve the property for a long period of time, the law says that is their land now. 

One particularly funny issue for the "law and order" people that agree with Trump's action is that I never hear anyone calling for citizenship audits of all Americans.  I am 3 generations away from Germany but I have zero idea if my family immigrated to America legally.  I think once we start finding large amounts of white families who are technically illegally here for many generations and threaten to deport them, the "law and order" crowd would start singing a different tune. 

Reminds me of the "opioid epidemic".  Minority communities have been devastated by drugs for decades; the "law and order" crowd wants them thrown in prison for life.  Now that opioids are effecting white communities, we need treatment and understanding.

I can't say this with certainty, but I suspect that generations ago, immigration was largely legal...large numbers of people were processed through Ellis Island, as most of my ancestors were.  Thus, I presume the immigration was legal.

People born here, in the USA, are citizens, regardless of the status of their parents or ancestors.

Perhaps instead of an audit, perhaps we have a test for voting!  In order to be able to vote, you must get at least 75% score.

There might be 20-30 different determining factors for the test:

Some might include:

A). Are you not convicted of a felony.
B). Have you honorably served in the military?
C). Have you completed & graduated from High School (GED)?
D). Do you own property & pay taxes on it for 3 of the last 5 years?
E). Have you paid income taxes for 3 of the last 5 years?
F). Can you pass a history/government/civics test?
G). Have you paid payroll taxes for 3 of the last 5 years? (created at least job)
H). Have you NOT received welfare or food stamps for 3 of the last 5 years?
I). Do you have a college degree?
J). Do you have an a graduate degree?
K). Do you have children that have not been convicted of a felony & not on government benefits? (productive members of society)?
L). Can you pass a drug test?
M). Have you served in the Peace corps OR other approved charitable/community organization in 3 of last 10 years?


I am sure there are other qualifications that I have forgotten or overlooked...

As for the heroine epidemic, you are largely correct.  The one caveat is that a good number of people have/had medical problems and were proscribed opoids to control the pain...then they descended into heroin use for whatever reason...Most people on crack cocaine did not get onto it because of problems with medical treatments...A very fine point to be sure....but sure, if it is good to have brutal crackdown on crack...it should also be OK to have a brutal crackdown on heroin.


rkbabang

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2017, 05:27:10 AM »
For those seeking a legal analogy, the better one is probably adverse possession.  A person enters property that is not legally theirs but they maintain/improve the property for a long period of time, the law says that is their land now. 

One particularly funny issue for the "law and order" people that agree with Trump's action is that I never hear anyone calling for citizenship audits of all Americans.  I am 3 generations away from Germany but I have zero idea if my family immigrated to America legally.  I think once we start finding large amounts of white families who are technically illegally here for many generations and threaten to deport them, the "law and order" crowd would start singing a different tune. 

Reminds me of the "opioid epidemic".  Minority communities have been devastated by drugs for decades; the "law and order" crowd wants them thrown in prison for life.  Now that opioids are effecting white communities, we need treatment and understanding.

I can't say this with certainty, but I suspect that generations ago, immigration was largely legal...large numbers of people were processed through Ellis Island, as most of my ancestors were.  Thus, I presume the immigration was legal.

People born here, in the USA, are citizens, regardless of the status of their parents or ancestors.

Perhaps instead of an audit, perhaps we have a test for voting!  In order to be able to vote, you must get at least 75% score.

There might be 20-30 different determining factors for the test:

Some might include:

A). Are you not convicted of a felony.
B). Have you honorably served in the military?
C). Have you completed & graduated from High School (GED)?
D). Do you own property & pay taxes on it for 3 of the last 5 years?
E). Have you paid income taxes for 3 of the last 5 years?
F). Can you pass a history/government/civics test?
G). Have you paid payroll taxes for 3 of the last 5 years? (created at least job)
H). Have you NOT received welfare or food stamps for 3 of the last 5 years?
I). Do you have a college degree?
J). Do you have an a graduate degree?
K). Do you have children that have not been convicted of a felony & not on government benefits? (productive members of society)?
L). Can you pass a drug test?
M). Have you served in the Peace corps OR other approved charitable/community organization in 3 of last 10 years?


I am sure there are other qualifications that I have forgotten or overlooked...

As for the heroine epidemic, you are largely correct.  The one caveat is that a good number of people have/had medical problems and were proscribed opoids to control the pain...then they descended into heroin use for whatever reason...Most people on crack cocaine did not get onto it because of problems with medical treatments...A very fine point to be sure....but sure, if it is good to have brutal crackdown on crack...it should also be OK to have a brutal crackdown on heroin.

If you are going to change how things work and you are still going to have a government.  I'd rather get rid of voting entirely.  Fill all political positions with a lottery.  Anyone who meets the qualifications (age, citizenship, no criminal record, etc) can sign up for the lottery and the winner is chosen at random like powerball.  It would be rare, bordering on impossible, for anyone to ever win a 2nd term and we'd end up with much better people.   I'm a firm believer that anyone who really wants the job enough to do what is currently necessary to win it are the last people who you want to hold it.

Gregmal

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2017, 05:56:46 AM »
For those seeking a legal analogy, the better one is probably adverse possession.  A person enters property that is not legally theirs but they maintain/improve the property for a long period of time, the law says that is their land now. 

One particularly funny issue for the "law and order" people that agree with Trump's action is that I never hear anyone calling for citizenship audits of all Americans.  I am 3 generations away from Germany but I have zero idea if my family immigrated to America legally.  I think once we start finding large amounts of white families who are technically illegally here for many generations and threaten to deport them, the "law and order" crowd would start singing a different tune. 

Reminds me of the "opioid epidemic".  Minority communities have been devastated by drugs for decades; the "law and order" crowd wants them thrown in prison for life.  Now that opioids are effecting white communities, we need treatment and understanding.

I can't say this with certainty, but I suspect that generations ago, immigration was largely legal...large numbers of people were processed through Ellis Island, as most of my ancestors were.  Thus, I presume the immigration was legal.

People born here, in the USA, are citizens, regardless of the status of their parents or ancestors.

Perhaps instead of an audit, perhaps we have a test for voting!  In order to be able to vote, you must get at least 75% score.

There might be 20-30 different determining factors for the test:

Some might include:

A). Are you not convicted of a felony.
B). Have you honorably served in the military?
C). Have you completed & graduated from High School (GED)?
D). Do you own property & pay taxes on it for 3 of the last 5 years?
E). Have you paid income taxes for 3 of the last 5 years?
F). Can you pass a history/government/civics test?
G). Have you paid payroll taxes for 3 of the last 5 years? (created at least job)
H). Have you NOT received welfare or food stamps for 3 of the last 5 years?
I). Do you have a college degree?
J). Do you have an a graduate degree?
K). Do you have children that have not been convicted of a felony & not on government benefits? (productive members of society)?
L). Can you pass a drug test?
M). Have you served in the Peace corps OR other approved charitable/community organization in 3 of last 10 years?


I am sure there are other qualifications that I have forgotten or overlooked...

As for the heroine epidemic, you are largely correct.  The one caveat is that a good number of people have/had medical problems and were proscribed opoids to control the pain...then they descended into heroin use for whatever reason...Most people on crack cocaine did not get onto it because of problems with medical treatments...A very fine point to be sure....but sure, if it is good to have brutal crackdown on crack...it should also be OK to have a brutal crackdown on heroin.

If you are going to change how things work and you are still going to have a government.  I'd rather get rid of voting entirely.  Fill all political positions with a lottery.  Anyone who meets the qualifications (age, citizenship, no criminal record, etc) can sign up for the lottery and the winner is chosen at random like powerball.  It would be rare, bordering on impossible, for anyone to ever win a 2nd term and we'd end up with much better people.   I'm a firm believer that anyone who really wants the job enough to do what is currently necessary to win it are the last people who you want to hold it.

But, but... what would we do without career politicians???

The most laughable thing I've read in a while is Mitch McConnell defending how little they've actually accomplished by saying that Trump is not a politician and doesn't understand "the process". Get rid of all these clowns. Make salaries 75,000 a year. Heck take a page from private sector and maybe do performance bonuses. Get people in there who's only loyalty is to the Constitution.

rkbabang

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2017, 06:25:50 AM »
For those seeking a legal analogy, the better one is probably adverse possession.  A person enters property that is not legally theirs but they maintain/improve the property for a long period of time, the law says that is their land now. 

One particularly funny issue for the "law and order" people that agree with Trump's action is that I never hear anyone calling for citizenship audits of all Americans.  I am 3 generations away from Germany but I have zero idea if my family immigrated to America legally.  I think once we start finding large amounts of white families who are technically illegally here for many generations and threaten to deport them, the "law and order" crowd would start singing a different tune. 

Reminds me of the "opioid epidemic".  Minority communities have been devastated by drugs for decades; the "law and order" crowd wants them thrown in prison for life.  Now that opioids are effecting white communities, we need treatment and understanding.

I can't say this with certainty, but I suspect that generations ago, immigration was largely legal...large numbers of people were processed through Ellis Island, as most of my ancestors were.  Thus, I presume the immigration was legal.

People born here, in the USA, are citizens, regardless of the status of their parents or ancestors.

Perhaps instead of an audit, perhaps we have a test for voting!  In order to be able to vote, you must get at least 75% score.

There might be 20-30 different determining factors for the test:

Some might include:

A). Are you not convicted of a felony.
B). Have you honorably served in the military?
C). Have you completed & graduated from High School (GED)?
D). Do you own property & pay taxes on it for 3 of the last 5 years?
E). Have you paid income taxes for 3 of the last 5 years?
F). Can you pass a history/government/civics test?
G). Have you paid payroll taxes for 3 of the last 5 years? (created at least job)
H). Have you NOT received welfare or food stamps for 3 of the last 5 years?
I). Do you have a college degree?
J). Do you have an a graduate degree?
K). Do you have children that have not been convicted of a felony & not on government benefits? (productive members of society)?
L). Can you pass a drug test?
M). Have you served in the Peace corps OR other approved charitable/community organization in 3 of last 10 years?


I am sure there are other qualifications that I have forgotten or overlooked...

As for the heroine epidemic, you are largely correct.  The one caveat is that a good number of people have/had medical problems and were proscribed opoids to control the pain...then they descended into heroin use for whatever reason...Most people on crack cocaine did not get onto it because of problems with medical treatments...A very fine point to be sure....but sure, if it is good to have brutal crackdown on crack...it should also be OK to have a brutal crackdown on heroin.

If you are going to change how things work and you are still going to have a government.  I'd rather get rid of voting entirely.  Fill all political positions with a lottery.  Anyone who meets the qualifications (age, citizenship, no criminal record, etc) can sign up for the lottery and the winner is chosen at random like powerball.  It would be rare, bordering on impossible, for anyone to ever win a 2nd term and we'd end up with much better people.   I'm a firm believer that anyone who really wants the job enough to do what is currently necessary to win it are the last people who you want to hold it.

But, but... what would we do without career politicians???

The most laughable thing I've read in a while is Mitch McConnell defending how little they've actually accomplished by saying that Trump is not a politician and doesn't understand "the process". Get rid of all these clowns. Make salaries 75,000 a year. Heck take a page from private sector and maybe do performance bonuses. Get people in there who's only loyalty is to the Constitution.

I won't lose any sleep over the fate of the career politicians.  I'm sure they will find some other con.

The only problem with a lottocracy though is you will need to beware of these guys:

« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 06:32:31 AM by rkbabang »

Cardboard

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2017, 08:30:10 AM »
Well dressed and well armed but, they sure could you some English writing lessons! LOL!

Cardboard

JSArbitrage

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2017, 10:31:32 AM »
For those seeking a legal analogy, the better one is probably adverse possession.  A person enters property that is not legally theirs but they maintain/improve the property for a long period of time, the law says that is their land now. 

One particularly funny issue for the "law and order" people that agree with Trump's action is that I never hear anyone calling for citizenship audits of all Americans.  I am 3 generations away from Germany but I have zero idea if my family immigrated to America legally.  I think once we start finding large amounts of white families who are technically illegally here for many generations and threaten to deport them, the "law and order" crowd would start singing a different tune. 

Reminds me of the "opioid epidemic".  Minority communities have been devastated by drugs for decades; the "law and order" crowd wants them thrown in prison for life.  Now that opioids are effecting white communities, we need treatment and understanding.

If you are born in America you are an American citizen regardless of your parents... There's no need for an audit if a birth certificate is on file...

Thank you for citing the current law that did not apply when my family immigrated here from Germany.  For decades in the early 20th century, there was massive amounts of immigration fraud.  It is quite likely that many individuals on this board are in their respective countries due to immigration fraud perpetrated decades ago by an ancestor.  The US attempted to alleviate those disputes with Title 8 (which is what you are referencing.)

But this just proves my point.  We (and I mean that collectively, not you and I) could be in our respective counties as a result of immigration fraud.  Should this not be prosecuted if you are philosophically against DACA?  Or is it ok for you because enough time has elapsed and the beneficiaries of the fraud passed legislation later to legalize that fraud? 

Would you support amnesty for all illegals today? Or do you just want to benefit from past fraud but prosecute current fraud? Just trying to gauge your interest in "law and order" and fraud prosecution when it might apply to a group with which you identify.



 

JSArbitrage

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2017, 10:43:49 AM »
Too funny Gregmal! So much for JSArbitrage laughing at the "law and order" people. What about the know nothing people then?

Cardboard

As a Texan, I have a lot of experience with the "law and order" types.  Our current governor, Greg Abbott, is one such individual.  True story here: our current governor wanted to chop down a tree in his yard.  Unfortunately for him, he lived in Austin and this particular tree is protected by local Austin law.  So what did he do?  He helped introduce legislation at the state level to make it against state law for a city to regulate trees.  Wants to benefit from a city filled with beautiful pecan trees.  Until he wants to remove his pecan tree. 

I think it's only fair to enforce immigration rules equally.  One should not come to a country under one set of rules and then shut the door to others under a different set of rules.  I don't like the "I got mine!" attitude.

Tim Eriksen

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2017, 12:47:45 PM »
One particularly funny issue for the "law and order" people that agree with Trump's action is that I never hear anyone calling for citizenship audits of all Americans.  I am 3 generations away from Germany but I have zero idea if my family immigrated to America legally.  I think once we start finding large amounts of white families who are technically illegally here for many generations and threaten to deport them, the "law and order" crowd would start singing a different tune. 

If you are born in America you are an American citizen regardless of your parents... There's no need for an audit if a birth certificate is on file...
Thank you for citing the current law that did not apply when my family immigrated here from Germany.  For decades in the early 20th century, there was massive amounts of immigration fraud.  It is quite likely that many individuals on this board are in their respective countries due to immigration fraud perpetrated decades ago by an ancestor.  The US attempted to alleviate those disputes with Title 8 (which is what you are referencing.)
You think Title 8 is the law that says if you are born in America you are an American citizen, and that it did not apply in the early 20th century???   Wow.   Please read the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution.   Your premise is flawed and therefore so is your conclusion that many of our ancestors came illegally.   Further it wouldn't matter because we were born here.   
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 01:36:10 PM by Tim Eriksen »

rukawa

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Re: The End of DACA
« Reply #78 on: September 09, 2017, 05:06:44 AM »
For those seeking a legal analogy, the better one is probably adverse possession.  A person enters property that is not legally theirs but they maintain/improve the property for a long period of time, the law says that is their land now. 

One particularly funny issue for the "law and order" people that agree with Trump's action is that I never hear anyone calling for citizenship audits of all Americans.  I am 3 generations away from Germany but I have zero idea if my family immigrated to America legally.  I think once we start finding large amounts of white families who are technically illegally here for many generations and threaten to deport them, the "law and order" crowd would start singing a different tune. 

Reminds me of the "opioid epidemic".  Minority communities have been devastated by drugs for decades; the "law and order" crowd wants them thrown in prison for life.  Now that opioids are effecting white communities, we need treatment and understanding.

I can't say this with certainty, but I suspect that generations ago, immigration was largely legal...large numbers of people were processed through Ellis Island, as most of my ancestors were.  Thus, I presume the immigration was legal.

People born here, in the USA, are citizens, regardless of the status of their parents or ancestors.

Perhaps instead of an audit, perhaps we have a test for voting!  In order to be able to vote, you must get at least 75% score.

There might be 20-30 different determining factors for the test:

Some might include:

A). Are you not convicted of a felony.
B). Have you honorably served in the military?
C). Have you completed & graduated from High School (GED)?
D). Do you own property & pay taxes on it for 3 of the last 5 years?
E). Have you paid income taxes for 3 of the last 5 years?
F). Can you pass a history/government/civics test?
G). Have you paid payroll taxes for 3 of the last 5 years? (created at least job)
H). Have you NOT received welfare or food stamps for 3 of the last 5 years?
I). Do you have a college degree?
J). Do you have an a graduate degree?
K). Do you have children that have not been convicted of a felony & not on government benefits? (productive members of society)?
L). Can you pass a drug test?
M). Have you served in the Peace corps OR other approved charitable/community organization in 3 of last 10 years?


I am sure there are other qualifications that I have forgotten or overlooked...

As for the heroine epidemic, you are largely correct.  The one caveat is that a good number of people have/had medical problems and were proscribed opoids to control the pain...then they descended into heroin use for whatever reason...Most people on crack cocaine did not get onto it because of problems with medical treatments...A very fine point to be sure....but sure, if it is good to have brutal crackdown on crack...it should also be OK to have a brutal crackdown on heroin.

If you are going to have a test to vote you should at least have one that asks questions relevant to running government. They could all be multiple choice:

1) How much does the federal government spend each year
2) How much does the federal government earn each year
3) What is the size of the federal deficit
4) What is the size of federal debt
5) Who runs the executive branch of government?
6) How much per an American do we spend on national defense
7) What is the individual mandate of the Affordable HealthCare act
8) Why is there an individual mandate in the Affordable Healthcare Act

Etc. Could be created by non-partisan agency like Elections Canada. That is a real voting test. Its ridiculous that you have a system in which the people deciding who will run it have no idea how it works or what it does.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 05:09:27 AM by rukawa »