Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: cwericb on August 30, 2020, 07:13:51 PM

Title: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: cwericb on August 30, 2020, 07:13:51 PM
“United we stand, Divided we fall”, is a wise American motto dateing back to the mid 1700's and was frequently used during the unification of the original 13 states.

But today, if the right and left don’t soon suck it up and start making attempts to settle their differences, the consequences will likely be dire and the above motto is likely prophetic.

I personally think that the present leader is doing nothing to unite the country and is incapable of doing so.

However:
What steps should be taken to unite the country?
Do you think the present problems will eventually be resolved?
Do you think they can be resolved?
What do you think the US will look like in 5, 10 or 20 years from now?

I have difficulty understanding how the present divisions can continue to escalate without some sort of second revolution occurring. Or, do some here see some sort of "Trump Dynasty" being formed to rule the country as the answer?

Personally I would think that if disillusioned Republicans and centralist Democrats were to form a third party, it would be a major step in the right direction but I don’t know the legalities and constitutionality of such a move.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Castanza on August 30, 2020, 08:13:24 PM
There are plenty of other parties and candidates out there. The issue is the rules governing who can be on the debate stage and campaign money.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: stahleyp on August 31, 2020, 08:14:50 AM
I might be crazy but I think running a balanced budget and no interest rate manipulation would solve a lot of issues. These unlimited funds distort things like discipline and lets a lot of irrational costs come in. Like if the government didn't have unlimited money, wealth inequality would be a lot less, college would cost a lot less, homes would cost a lot less, etc. The economy would be a lot bumpier over the short term though.

A lot of these issues ultimately stem from unfairness. And unlimited money increases that.

I also think lobbying should be illegal and term limits should be imposed.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: cwericb on September 01, 2020, 06:00:24 PM
“There are plenty of other parties and candidates out there. The issue is the rules governing who can be on the debate stage and campaign money. “

But everything has to start somewhere. If a new centralist party was formed hopefully it would attract some independents as well as dissatisfied GOP and Dems. This is not likely to happen over night. But at this point, given the poor choices on the left and right, it would seem that the time is probably better now than at any previous time?

“I also think lobbying should be illegal..."

That and a cap on election spending would seem to be a step in the right direction. Controlling lobbying would seem to reduce some of the corruption and the control of major industries.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: winjitsu on September 01, 2020, 09:28:09 PM
“There are plenty of other parties and candidates out there. The issue is the rules governing who can be on the debate stage and campaign money. “

But everything has to start somewhere. If a new centralist party was formed hopefully it would attract some independents as well as dissatisfied GOP and Dems. This is not likely to happen over night. But at this point, given the poor choices on the left and right, it would seem that the time is probably better now than at any previous time?

“I also think lobbying should be illegal..."

That and a cap on election spending would seem to be a step in the right direction. Controlling lobbying would seem to reduce some of the corruption and the control of major industries.

Biggest issue are Democrats and Republicans have worked together to create a duopoly where they are the only two viable parties. If these two were companies, I'd invest heavily as they are literally writing their own rules to reduce new entrants.

Elimination of winner take all type votes (say for example assigning electoral college proportionally), reducing gerrymandering, introducing ranked choice voting etc. are all steps in the right direction.

https://medium.com/@rogerkay/the-entrenched-political-duopoly-is-ruining-our-democracy-825a2425245
https://freakonomics.com/podcast/politics-industry/
https://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/Documents/why-competition-in-the-politics-industry-is-failing-america.pdf
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: cwericb on September 02, 2020, 11:05:35 AM
“Biggest issue are Democrats and Republicans have worked together to create a duopoly where they are the only two viable parties. If these two were companies, I'd invest heavily as they are literally writing their own rules to reduce new entrants.“

Yes, but has there been other times in history where a significant number of one party have not only refused to support an incumbent President, but have actually formed groups to support the other party's candidate? This would seem to indicate that there might be an appetite for a legitimate third party. There certainly seems to be a lot of people who are fed up with the two mainstream parties.

But aside from the formation of a third party it seems that if some major changes don't occur soon, the country is in for a rough ride going forward.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Gregmal on September 02, 2020, 11:21:48 AM
Hmmmm, so both democrats and large swaths of republicans are working together against a non establishment candidate? LOL and we wonder why there are only two "establishment" parties?
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: cwericb on September 02, 2020, 11:36:36 AM
So, should Trump organize a third party?
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: LC on September 02, 2020, 11:56:33 AM
Trump is a republican.
Until being a republican is bad.
Then he’s an “outsider”.
Unless he needs senate agreement.
Then he’s a businessman.
Until he needs state governor’s agreement.
Then Trump is a republican again.

Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on September 02, 2020, 12:06:09 PM
Trump is a republican.
Until being a republican is bad.
Then he’s an “outsider”.
Unless he needs senate agreement.
Then he’s a businessman.
Until he needs state governor’s agreement.
Then Trump is a republican again.

Don’t forget “he’s corrupt just like every politician” but we love him because “he’s not like other politicians” !
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Gregmal on September 02, 2020, 12:41:59 PM
Trump is a republican.
Until being a republican is bad.
Then he’s an “outsider”.
Unless he needs senate agreement.
Then he’s a businessman.
Until he needs state governor’s agreement.
Then Trump is a republican again.

When does he go back to being a life long Democrat?
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: cwericb on September 02, 2020, 06:09:15 PM
Seems like the subject of the thread is getting lost. Arguing won’t solve anything here.

How about some serious ideas of how the divide in the country may be resolved? Can it be resolved? What happens if the split between left and right continues to spread? Where will the country be in 5 years from now?
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Dalal.Holdings on September 02, 2020, 06:19:22 PM
Seems like the subject of the thread is getting lost. Arguing won’t solve anything here.

How about some serious ideas of how the divide in the country may be resolved? Can it be resolved? What happens if the split between left and right continues to spread? Where will the country be in 5 years from now?

How about people acknowledging that they'd want their candidate to concede the election if they lose and stop supporting them?

A peaceful transition of power, a 200+ year America tradition, would be a good starting point for avoiding civil war.

I'll start: As opposed to Hillary Clinton's statements, I'd want Joe Biden to concede the election if Trump wins the electoral college as in 2016.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Gregmal on September 02, 2020, 06:28:12 PM
Once COVID has wiped us out, the question "what will it look like?" can be answered by "ever seen I am Legend?"... S&P will be at 10.

Joking aside, there is no realistic solution because the policymakers will always have enough of an incentive to stomp out anything that jeopardizes their way of living. In a revolutionary sense, power can only be taken/relinquished by force or the threat of force.

Donald Trump was who he is today, for 70 some odd years prior to becoming President. He was popular in NY, had major friends all throughout Hollywood and in celebrity circles....yada, yada, yada. Then he gets into politics and everyone hates him and he's the biggest racist ever and compared to Pablo Escobar and Adolf Hitler....the message sent by the establishment is loud and clear, and if you need any further evidence look no further than how horrendously Howard Schultz was treated during that small stretch of time when he was considering a run. Non establishment people are permitted to run as a third party where they are tolerated largely because they are known not to have a chance. But running as the headliner on the D/R ticket is only for the preordained. Heck, even look at what happened to Bernie Sanders...the entire party colluded against him. Twice!
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: cwericb on September 02, 2020, 06:54:56 PM
So where do you see the country going over the next few years?

I said here three years ago that Trump would never voluntarily give up power, win or lose in the next election.

I believe that he is looking for a dictatorship and a Trump dynasty with Ivanka following him. Of course he will never refer to it in those words, but that is what it will be. Are Trump supporters comfortable with that?
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Gregmal on September 02, 2020, 07:04:38 PM
So where do you see the country going over the next few years?

I said here three years ago that Trump would never voluntarily give up power, win or lose in the next election.

I believe that he is looking for a dictatorship and a Trump dynasty with Ivanka following him. Of course he will never refer to it in those words, but that is what it will be. Are Trump supporters comfortable with that?

There is no way this occurs. Will he put up a stink if there's controversy around the outcome...absolutely. But it will likely be in the form of an Al Gore. Litigate and contest things for a bit, and then move on. I would not be surprised to see this regardless of who wins. But pretending he won't voluntarily leave is just an absurd media talking point.

And if Ivanka wants to run, whats wrong with that? And speaking of "dynasty", how would multiple generations of Trumps be any different than the previous generations of Bush or Kennedys?
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: LC on September 02, 2020, 07:34:19 PM
Trump is all talk. He has no actual backbone. If he loses in November, he'll throw some nonsense lawsuit together, lose somewhere down the line, and slink away to his cave like he always does.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: winjitsu on September 02, 2020, 08:31:53 PM

Yes, but has there been other times in history where a significant number of one party have not only refused to support an incumbent President, but have actually formed groups to support the other party's candidate? This would seem to indicate that there might be an appetite for a legitimate third party. There certainly seems to be a lot of people who are fed up with the two mainstream parties.

But aside from the formation of a third party it seems that if some major changes don't occur soon, the country is in for a rough ride going forward.

This is exactly due to the lack of viable third parties. Trump isn't a true Republican, neither are AOC/Berny Democratics. But because these are the only two viable parties, they have to enter these parties and change them from within. Republicans don't like Trump, but Democrats don't like Berny either. The parties are victims of their own success.

Speaking with my French friends regarding the election of Marcon, for example, there used to be a left/right, but he formed a new centrist party and was elected that way. Ideally, Trump would form his own party and not have to pretend to be Republican (Berlusconi / Forza Italy style I imagine), likewise Berny/AOC could run Socialist and actually get delegates in congress to advance their causes.

But the structural and legal barriers set up to forming a new party, by the rules created by the Democratics and Repbulicans, are humongous. If anything, the viability of a third party has been going down (Perrot -> Nader -> no independent candidate getting anything meaningful).
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Castanza on September 03, 2020, 05:48:32 AM
https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1301237387780120578?s=21

Best guy in government
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: cwericb on September 03, 2020, 08:06:59 AM
"But the structural and legal barriers set up to forming a new party, by the rules created by the Democratics and Repbulicans, are humongous. If anything, the viability of a third party has been going down (Perrot -> Nader -> no independent candidate getting anything meaningful)."

Yes, Ross Perrot came as close as anyone has, but he had no viable party behind him. If there were as many dissatisfied Republicans and Democrats back then as there is now perhaps there might have been enough momentum to have formed a third party. Unfortunately there seems to be few strong leaders to build a third party around today.

"There is no way this occurs. Will he put up a stink if there's controversy around the outcome...absolutely. But it will likely be in the form of an Al Gore. Litigate and contest things for a bit, and then move on. I would not be surprised to see this regardless of who wins. But pretending he won't voluntarily leave is just an absurd media talking point."

Hope you are right. If he legitimately loses, I have visions of the military grabbing him by the scruff of the neck and dragging him kicking and screaming out of the White House with Bill Barr running behind him yelling "Stop, you can't do that!".

My real concern is that with the situation with the post office, mail in ballots and Trump now encouraging people to vote twice, that there is going to be so much confusion over the results that this election's legitimacy is going to lead to a situation where no one really knows who won the election.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: winjitsu on September 03, 2020, 11:23:41 AM

Yes, Ross Perrot came as close as anyone has, but he had no viable party behind him. If there were as many dissatisfied Republicans and Democrats back then as there is now perhaps there might have been enough momentum to have formed a third party. Unfortunately there seems to be few strong leaders to build a third party around today.


Unless we change rules for something like a run-off voting, stack ranking etc., you will always run into the third party problem, which is:

Its a wasted vote and you're better off voting for one of the two candidates you hate the least versus the one you want. Perot probably cost Bush the election, and Nader 100% cost Gore. Arguments that Stein (Green) cost Hilary could be made as well.

I'm not disagreeing with you that there could / should be a third party. Just that making a viable party way more difficult than it should be.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Spekulatius on September 06, 2020, 10:53:56 AM
“Biggest issue are Democrats and Republicans have worked together to create a duopoly where they are the only two viable parties. If these two were companies, I'd invest heavily as they are literally writing their own rules to reduce new entrants.“

Yes, but has there been other times in history where a significant number of one party have not only refused to support an incumbent President, but have actually formed groups to support the other party's candidate? This would seem to indicate that there might be an appetite for a legitimate third party. There certainly seems to be a lot of people who are fed up with the two mainstream parties.

But aside from the formation of a third party it seems that if some major changes don't occur soon, the country is in for a rough ride going forward.

There might be appetite for a third or a different party, but the winner take all principle in the US electoral system pretty much makes only 2 party system viable. In countries where also minority parties are represented in a parliament etc, you will have multiple parties. There are pros and cons to both.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: cwericb on September 06, 2020, 11:17:14 AM
"There might be appetite for a third or a different party, but the winner take all principle in the US electoral system pretty much makes only 2 party system viable. In countries where also minority parties are represented in a parliament etc, you will have multiple parties. There are pros and cons to both."

That is true and the parliamentary system can be bogged down by too many parties. But for now at least, we are certainly seeing the cons of the American system on full display.

Trump is doing everything he can to scuttle the US election and to discredit the US voting system. Should this result in major changes to the US system, would't it be ironic if, inadvertently, this actually turns out to be his only real legacy?
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Gregmal on September 06, 2020, 04:44:41 PM
Its interesting looking at what Kanye West is doing. Nothing with respect to Kanye himself, who is certainly an interesting fellow...but simply the fact that somebody with tons of money and talented folks working for him....cant even get on the ballot in some states due to all the bureaucratic nonsense and red tape. Does a normal person really have a chance? There's so many things purposely put in place to ensure that only the chosen ones get to play ball.
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: cwericb on September 07, 2020, 06:28:36 AM
Yup, no question the R's & D's want to protect their own turf. Probably the best chance for a new party would come from a major split within one of the old line parties?

While a number of R's don't support Trump, of the rest, some believe in him and some support him simply to maintain their positions and influence. Given that so many politicians are true only onto themselves the future doesn't look particularly bright. One wonders how long this will last?

Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Jurgis on September 07, 2020, 07:19:21 AM
It's somewhat funny that solution proposed for “United we stand. Divided we fall” is to have more parties.  ::)



Oh wait, yes, let's have more parties. Invite everyone, bring booze. This will definitely work.  8)
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: winjitsu on September 09, 2020, 04:11:56 PM
It's somewhat funny that solution proposed for “United we stand. Divided we fall” is to have more parties.  ::)

Oh wait, yes, let's have more parties. Invite everyone, bring booze. This will definitely work.  8)

Even better, we should just go to one party, problems solved. That way, we can really enjoy that booze ;)
Title: Re: “United we stand. Divided we fall”.
Post by: Jurgis on September 09, 2020, 05:53:40 PM
It's somewhat funny that solution proposed for “United we stand. Divided we fall” is to have more parties.  ::)

Oh wait, yes, let's have more parties. Invite everyone, bring booze. This will definitely work.  8)

Even better, we should just go to one party, problems solved. That way, we can really enjoy that booze ;)

You got it, brother!  8)