Author Topic: Whats The Problem?  (Read 1245 times)

fareastwarriors

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2020, 02:58:20 PM »
my experience on this site is that this thread will soon be in the politics category.  this is a snowflake site, much as I love it, so we soon await the administrator's certain transfer.

what I dont understand is the resistance to appreciating that the political/cultural/sociological background to investment is as important as what the fed does, what the recent GDP data is etc.

anyone who has invested over multiple presidencies has to appreciate that the political backdrop is hugely important to investment prospects. 

it is clear that snowflake sensitivities are at risk so politics section here we come....but your political weakness is someone's investment strength

Why do you have to use snowflake? There is not a better word out there?
Am I being a snowflake by asking that?

2nd question, is there a non-snowflake site out there?

snowflakes melt under a small amount of heat.

Today's version create the heat and then bring it to your front porch and accuse you of making them melt...

Anyhow, this thread will probably continue digressing, but I still think the original premise is of worthwhile discussion..why is a lower bid a bad thing and who takes responsibility for running a bidding process that doesnt capture the most value....but I suppose thats a conversation for the big boys..

What can the average citizen do about it?


LC

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2020, 02:58:46 PM »
The problem is we have all shown repeatedly that we're not capable of engaging in a civil discussion about politics, hence the "quarantine". The topic of politics is not the problem, it's our general behavior.

On this topic, well there may be some naivete here. These contracts are subject to MASSIVE change orders, sometimes 4-5x the initial bid depending on the length of the contract. Coming in "below" the existing bid may appear like a good deal for taxpayers, but it is most definitely not.

My first gig back in the day was working for an engineering/code consulting group. We worked with private developers, public private partnerships, the City, the State, and Metro North. We were (and they still are) the top firm in the NYC area, by miles. We were also the most expensive by far in terms of initial bids. But property and project managers used us every.damn.time. because we (1) actually did the work, on time, every time (unlike our competitors who routinely tried to under-bid us) and (2) submitted realistic bids. Sometimes our (usually smaller and less experienced) clients would try to save some cash and use a competitor. Six months later they would be back. Consistently. Our competitors would be late on delivery, resulting in delays for concrete pours, plumbing/electric installs, engineering reviews, code reviews with the city, etc.....that costs a LOT of cash for a variety of reasons. And because they purposefully deflated their project bids (as I just about grantee WRS did here), they would tack on 30, 40 change orders. They always wound up being more expensive than us, with longer project timelines. But you don't know any of this unless you've worked in the industry for a few years.
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Gregmal

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2020, 03:04:52 PM »
The problem is we have all shown repeatedly that we're not capable of engaging in a civil discussion about politics, hence the "quarantine". The topic of politics is not the problem, it's our general behavior.

On this topic, well there may be some naivete here. These contracts are subject to MASSIVE change orders, sometimes 4-5x the initial bid depending on the length of the contract. Coming in "below" the existing bid may appear like a good deal for taxpayers, but it is most definitely not.

My first gig back in the day was working for an engineering/code consulting group. We worked with private developers, public private partnerships, the City, the State, and Metro North. We were (and they still are) the top firm in the NYC area, by miles. We were also the most expensive by far in terms of initial bids. But property and project managers used us every.damn.time. because we (1) actually did the work, on time, every time (unlike our competitors who routinely tried to under-bid us) and (2) submitted realistic bids. Sometimes our (usually smaller and less experienced) clients would try to save some cash and use a competitor. Six months later they would be back. Consistently. Our competitors would be late on delivery, resulting in delays for concrete pours, plumbing/electric installs, engineering reviews, code reviews with the city, etc.....that costs a LOT of cash for a variety of reasons. And because they purposefully deflated their project bids (as I just about grantee WRS did here), they would tack on 30, 40 change orders. They always wound up being more expensive than us, with longer project timelines. But you don't know any of this unless you've worked in the industry for a few years.

LOL, who'd have thunk it. LC comes in to a conversation some are trying their damndest to drag into politics and adds a useful and totally non political piece of information!

To your point, I dont disagree. A friend is a foremen at a larger NYC developer and even simple things like the concrete pours always get held up, which then because of "regulatory" issues and warranty/insurance completely throw off EVERYTHING else. Which then results in guys getting paid union wages just standing around doing nothing...adding months to the job, and no one really minds, cuz they all get paid.

Gregmal

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2020, 03:09:31 PM »
my experience on this site is that this thread will soon be in the politics category.  this is a snowflake site, much as I love it, so we soon await the administrator's certain transfer.

what I dont understand is the resistance to appreciating that the political/cultural/sociological background to investment is as important as what the fed does, what the recent GDP data is etc.

anyone who has invested over multiple presidencies has to appreciate that the political backdrop is hugely important to investment prospects. 

it is clear that snowflake sensitivities are at risk so politics section here we come....but your political weakness is someone's investment strength

Why do you have to use snowflake? There is not a better word out there?
Am I being a snowflake by asking that?

2nd question, is there a non-snowflake site out there?

snowflakes melt under a small amount of heat.

Today's version create the heat and then bring it to your front porch and accuse you of making them melt...

Anyhow, this thread will probably continue digressing, but I still think the original premise is of worthwhile discussion..why is a lower bid a bad thing and who takes responsibility for running a bidding process that doesnt capture the most value....but I suppose thats a conversation for the big boys..

What can the average citizen do about it?

Understand the process, the shortcomings, ask questions, attend town hall meetings and such. There's a big issue in a town near where I grew up about the development of a parking garage. Cost is $12M in a town of 26,000. But the politicians have promised it will be funded by revenue generated by parking meters. Except the numbers dont add up and they already are bulldozing ahead trying to pass the project on "trust me". But then a number of residents spoke up, articles started showing up in the town papers, and people got involved in the town hall meetings. All of a sudden, the project is being given second thoughts. But you'll never get there if at the first whiff of "politics" you scream and pout like a 5 year old who just got told they had to go to school.

fareastwarriors

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2020, 03:25:08 PM »
my experience on this site is that this thread will soon be in the politics category.  this is a snowflake site, much as I love it, so we soon await the administrator's certain transfer.

what I dont understand is the resistance to appreciating that the political/cultural/sociological background to investment is as important as what the fed does, what the recent GDP data is etc.

anyone who has invested over multiple presidencies has to appreciate that the political backdrop is hugely important to investment prospects. 

it is clear that snowflake sensitivities are at risk so politics section here we come....but your political weakness is someone's investment strength

Why do you have to use snowflake? There is not a better word out there?
Am I being a snowflake by asking that?

2nd question, is there a non-snowflake site out there?

snowflakes melt under a small amount of heat.

Today's version create the heat and then bring it to your front porch and accuse you of making them melt...

Anyhow, this thread will probably continue digressing, but I still think the original premise is of worthwhile discussion..why is a lower bid a bad thing and who takes responsibility for running a bidding process that doesnt capture the most value....but I suppose thats a conversation for the big boys..

What can the average citizen do about it?

Understand the process, the shortcomings, ask questions, attend town hall meetings and such. There's a big issue in a town near where I grew up about the development of a parking garage. Cost is $12M in a town of 26,000. But the politicians have promised it will be funded by revenue generated by parking meters. Except the numbers dont add up and they already are bulldozing ahead trying to pass the project on "trust me". But then a number of residents spoke up, articles started showing up in the town papers, and people got involved in the town hall meetings. All of a sudden, the project is being given second thoughts. But you'll never get there if at the first whiff of "politics" you scream and pout like a 5 year old who just got told they had to go to school.

Good points. I admit I have not been active in my local government besides voting.
There is always an excuse like job, relationship, family, working on investments, etc. I need to step up.

Spekulatius

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2020, 05:40:58 PM »


"Snowflake" is nothing more than a passive aggressive jab.

It's also a projection by an individual who is in fact a "snowflake" themselves.

This thread needs to go where all bullshit threads go.

...Which is the politics section. Actually, the fact that this thread pops up here is a good indication, that the politics sections doesnít get any traffic any more.
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cherzeca

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2020, 07:42:07 PM »
nah, I am aggressive, not passive aggressive. and more a ray of sunshine than a snowflake... 8)

Gregmal

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2020, 05:36:47 AM »
Another potentially interesting thread ruined by a few....

writser

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2020, 06:21:57 AM »
The snowflakes will leave this thread alone now. Time for the big boys to discuss running a bidding process, the political backdrop of investing and the valuation of Lockheed Martin. Iím looking forward to reading that discussion.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 07:07:21 AM by writser »
I'm sorry if I have offended you. Please contact this forum's safe space coordinator to work thing out.

@thewritser

Cigarbutt

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Re: Whats The Problem?
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2020, 07:11:55 AM »
I would say the topic has some value even if the writing style feels like a bull entering a china shop.

In 2019, there was an opportunity in SNC-Lavalin, a typical odds-type situation based on a few potential outcomes.
Long story short (background before and after references below): A company involved in bidding processes for various global infrastructure (engineering) projects went too far and.. and... and last summer was threatened with losing access to bidding on federal government projects, an existential threat. A situation where odds were related to the dynamics of bidding processes, political ramifications and human nature. In the end, the deferred prosecution agreement was not obtained, a settlement was reached and access to bidding will very likely be maintained.

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/02/22/SNC-Lavalin-Criminal-Record-Corruption/
https://canada.constructconnect.com/joc/news/government/2019/12/snc-lavalin-settles-libya-charges-pleads-guilty-to-single-count-of-fraud

I guess a potential message could be: handle with care.