Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: Cardboard on October 14, 2020, 06:43:54 PM

Title: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Cardboard on October 14, 2020, 06:43:54 PM
Yeah where are these two loudspeakers to blame Trudeau for his disastrous mismanagement of Covid?

WHO warns Canada is facing a 'second wave' of coronavirus cases
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/14/who-warns-canada-is-facing-a-second-wave-of-coronavirus-cases-.html

Cardboard
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: cwericb on October 14, 2020, 07:46:46 PM


Yeah where are these two loudspeakers to blame Trudeau for his disastrous mismanagement of Covid?

WHO warns Canada is facing a 'second wave' of coronavirus cases
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/14/who-warns-canada-is-facing-a-second-wave-of-coronavirus-cases-.html

Cardboard

“Where is Cwericb and Viking?”

Right here good buddy. You really seem to be in a feisty mood tonight taking shots at Dalal.Holdings on the other thread and calling Viking and me out here so let me get down to your question.

I have attempted to tell you on numerous occasions, I am no fan of Trudeau, but you seem have some reading comprehension issues on that front.

However, if you think that somehow Trump has the high ground on handling Covid in comparing him to Trudeau, then I might suggest you should leave your mask at home in Canada and slip on down to the US and take in some of your hero's rallies. and keep us posted so we can see how that works out for you.

Now I am not sure what point you are trying to make re: Covid & Canada but if you are surprised that Canada is facing a ‘second wave’, well Cardboard shame on you cause y'all just haven’t been paying very close attention.

This ‘second wave’ has been predicted for several months now and common sense would tell most of us that as we move into the colder temperatures and the “Flu Season” comes on, Covid levels would increase. The northern States don’t seem to be doing so well right now either, have you checked that out?

Now regarding the Canadian numbers, did you know that Quebec alone accounts for about half of all Canadian deaths - 6,000 out of 9,664 total?  But since any comment I might have about Quebec would probably prompt Sanjeev to ban me from the board for a month, I will not say more about La Belle Province and it's handling of anything including Covid-19. You remember how that ban business works, right?

But factoring in population, Canada still have a death rate that is half of the US’s.

Here are the numbers for you:
Canada      9,664 dead
USA       217,000 dead

I hope this helps.

cwericb
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Viking on October 14, 2020, 08:11:29 PM
Yeah where are these two loudspeakers to blame Trudeau for his disastrous mismanagement of Covid?

WHO warns Canada is facing a 'second wave' of coronavirus cases
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/14/who-warns-canada-is-facing-a-second-wave-of-coronavirus-cases-.html

Cardboard

Ok, i’ll bite. Cardboard, what is it specifically that Trudeau is doing wrong?

Every model out there is predicting a spike in Covid cases in Canada as we enter fall/winter. This is the start of flu season. Any parent who has a kid knows what i am talking about.

Questions for Trudeau:
1.) does he believe in science? Yes
2.) has the Federal response been lead by health experts with politicians in the background? Yes
3.) is he asking Canadians to wear masks? Yes
4.) is he asking Canadians to social distance? Yes
5.) is he personally role modelling the right behaviour (masks & social distancing)? Yes
6.) Politically, is he working across party lines to provide a unified approach? For the most part, yes
7.) is he working well with all provinces? Yes
8.) was he quick with massive financial support to unemployed and businesses? Yes
9.) have relief programs been modified in recent months and weeks to reflect the current situation? Yes

Trudeau/Federal Government has made lots of errors since the pandemic started. But his leadership on this issue has been infinitely better than Trump’s.

Now you might have forgotten but each of the Provinces in Canada are exclusively in control of, among other things, health care. I live in BC and am overall happy with the response of my provincial government. Mistakes have been made but the leadership group is doing their best. I can’t speak to other provinces like Ontario and Quebec as i do not follow them closely enough.

For non-Canadians here is a link that explains Federal / Provincial roles and responsibilities:
- https://thecanadaguide.com/government/local-governments/

PS: If you want to criticize Trudeau and his handling of the pandemic you might want to focus primarily on the fiscal side of things (not the health as per your link above). You and i might actually find something to agree on regarding the pandemic :-)

Trudeau / Federal Government is spending money like a drunken sailor since the pandemic started. But we seem to be in an age where total debt no longer matters (if it is local currency). I am not convinced.
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Cardboard on October 15, 2020, 01:54:33 AM
Trudeau is an abject failure and all leftist governments in Canada.

They killed our liberties, picked winners and losers, destroyed our balance sheet not to overwelm hospitals and their unionized and highly paid workers and the end results is the exact same as in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Ever heard of Sweden you uneducated? Funny that a deep socialist state used their head and tried something else.

They did fuck all and infection, death count per capita is same.

Reason why they have more cases/deaths in the U.S. is that it takes a few hours to get test results vs a week if not more out here and a lot more of pre-conditions: diabetes, obesity and other.

If Obounga was still in power they would applaud same results. You guys are the true deplorables!

Cardboard 
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Cardboard on October 15, 2020, 02:04:08 AM
And yes when Biden and first female VP (maybe she is trans?) are in power in January, nobody will talk about Covid and 2nd wave.

It will all be back to normal and simply winter runny noses...

I told you over a year sgo that Biden would be President. Then now do this since you seem to have recollection issues: record the news today (any news bulletin) and watch how great we are doing in January on same channel.

Cardboard

Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: cwericb on October 15, 2020, 06:28:48 AM
“Trudeau is an abject failure and all leftist governments in Canada.”

Who is arguing that point with you? I think he is a disaster fiscally. But I don’t blame it all on him because I believe it is the Liberal back room boys that really call the shots. As far as his performance on Covid is concerned, he has certainly taken the problem seriously in contrast to a certain buffoon who pretends to ignore it. Of course the buffoon had a slightly different attitude personally when he was a victim and was rushed to the hospital. Unfortunately the average Joe doesn't get that same attention.

“They killed our liberties, picked winners and losers, destroyed our balance sheet not to overwelm hospitals and their unionized and highly paid workers and the end results is the exact same as in the U.S. and elsewhere.”

Why would you say that? At this point the end results are NOT the same in Canada as in the U.S. Are you unaware that the U.S. Covid death rate is at least DOUBLE that of Canada. How is that exactly the same results?

“Reason why they have more cases/deaths in the U.S. is that it takes a few hours to get test results vs a week if not more out here and a lot more of pre-conditions: diabetes, obesity and other.”

Don’t confuse case rate with death rate. The number of recorded cases depends on how many people are tested. Number of deaths is not an arbitrary figure. The US death rate is double Canada’s.

“If Obounga was still in power they would applaud same results. You guys are the true deplorables!” 

You having trouble spelling? A little dyslectic perhaps? It is Obama if that helps. Just a little help from one of the new deplorables.

“And yes when Biden and first female VP (maybe she is trans?) are in power in January, nobody will talk about Covid and 2nd wave.”

‘(maybe she is trans?)’
  Really? Seriously? Is that all you’ve got? I guess when you can’t find anything substantial to complain about you have to stoop to remarks like this.
But it is good to see that at least now you agree that a second wave is coming. So why were you so surprised in your first post that cases in Canada were rising? Now if you think no one will be talking about it, well that is certainly what Trump’s attitude would be - because ‘it will all just disappear’, right?

“I told you over a year ago that Biden would be President.”

Yes you did. Thought that was just wishful thinking on your part. Congratulations.

“Then now do this since you seem to have recollection issues: record the news today (any news bulletin) and watch how great we are doing in January on same channel.”


Well since you, and most of the rest of the world predict a second wave of Covid no one expects Canada or the US to be doing very well especially since Trump has done everything in his power to ignore the problem and set up his country (and others) for a disaster.

However, hopefully there will be a new President that will address the problem rather than a buffoon who holds public rallies, lies to his citizens, and tries to pretend that 217,000 dead Americans is no big deal.

I hope that Viking and I have been able to address your concerns and have clarified some of the facts that you may have overlooked.

Cwericb
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: SharperDingaan on October 15, 2020, 07:04:20 AM
Trudeau has actually done a pretty good job. Canadians vote primarily for good governance, not ideology.
Same as Europe, every province in Canada is it's own 'nation', and Covid is nowhere near as rampant in Canada, as it is in Europe. We still have an economy, functioning emergency benefits, and a rational approach. Sure it might have been better, but neither of us is having to manage this, and monday-morning quarterbacks know squat.

We now have schools and day-cares open, somewhat allowing women the ability to work again. Sure It's cold season and it means more Covid, but that's life - get over it. It's a pandemic. > 70% of the population are going to get Covid, all that authorities can do is manage the curve so that everyone can access treatment when the time comes. If you want piece of mind, get the flu shots that are being rolled out, and save yourself a trip.

We now have the experience of the first wave, and have had months to build ventilators, stock up on PPE, develop treatments, and put plans in place. Sure they might not be the best, but tbey don't have to be - they just have to be 'good enough'. Do what's asked of you, when you're asked, and we should all do as well as possible. Of course, If you think you're special - there are folks behind the barn who would like to meet you.

The various Covid measures in place, are essentially 'war time' measures. But unlike 'war time', families are not receiving the body bags of dead sons, daughters, aunts and uncles, and hearing the horror stories as to what is happening on the front lines. We don't have that, and as a result - the seriousness of Covid isn't penetrating.

Perhaps its time a DAILY Covid, and suicides, death-list of name, age, and location was scrolled on the national news, or published in the daily papers.
Look it up daily to see if there's someone you know. Few are going to posture their 'invincibility' when it makes you look like a walking corpse, and fewer super-spreaders = lower infection rates.

Different strokes.

SD

'


Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: orthopa on October 15, 2020, 07:17:03 AM
Trudeau has actually done a pretty good job. Canadians vote primarily for good governance, not ideology.
Same as Europe, every province in Canada is it's own 'nation', and Covid is nowhere near as rampant in Canada, as it is in Europe. We still have an economy, functioning emergency benefits, and a rationale approach. Sure it might have been better, but neither of us is having to manage this, and monday-morning quarterbacks know squat.

We now have schools and day-cares open, somewhat allowing women the ability to work again. Sure It's cold season and it means more Covid, but that's life - get over it. It's a pandemic. > 70% of the population are going to get Covid, all that authorities can do is manage the curve so that everyone can access treatment when the time comes. If you want piece of mind, get the flu shots that are being rolled out, and save yourself a trip.

We now have the experience of the first wave, and have had months to build ventilators, stock up on PPE, develop treatments, and put plans in place. Sure they might not be the best, but tbey don't have to be - they just have to be 'good enough'. Do what's asked of you, when you're asked, and we should all do as well as possible. Of course, If you think you're special - there are folks behind the barn who would like to meet you.

The various Covid measures in place, are essentially 'war time' measures. But unlike 'war time', families are not receiving the body bags of dead sons, daughters, aunts and uncles, and hearing the horror stories as to what is happening on the front lines. We don't have that, and a result - the seriousness of Covid isn't penetrating.

Perhaps its time a DAILY Covid, and suicides, death-list of name, age, and location was scrolled on the national news, or published in the daily papers - look it up daily to see if there's someone you know. Few are going to posture their 'invincibility' when it makes you look like a walking corpse, and fewer super-spreaders = lower infection rates.

Different strokes.

SD

'

Cuomo did a pretty good job with Covid in NY too. He has a book that just came out that will tell you all about it.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Crisis-Leadership-COVID-19-Pandemic/dp/0593239261

Apparently if you buy this book you get the Jeffrey Dahlmer "Cooking at home" cookbook too for free.
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: orthopa on October 15, 2020, 07:30:14 AM
Yeah where are these two loudspeakers to blame Trudeau for his disastrous mismanagement of Covid?

WHO warns Canada is facing a 'second wave' of coronavirus cases
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/14/who-warns-canada-is-facing-a-second-wave-of-coronavirus-cases-.html

Cardboard

Ok, i’ll bite. Cardboard, what is it specifically that Trudeau is doing wrong?

Every model out there is predicting a spike in Covid cases in Canada as we enter fall/winter. This is the start of flu season. Any parent who has a kid knows what i am talking about.



If every model saw it coming how come it wasnt prevented? Logic would then tell you someone has to be to blame.

That being said if it cant be prevented, why all the finger pointing across the border?
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: rb on October 15, 2020, 07:51:34 AM
Yeah where are these two loudspeakers to blame Trudeau for his disastrous mismanagement of Covid?

WHO warns Canada is facing a 'second wave' of coronavirus cases
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/14/who-warns-canada-is-facing-a-second-wave-of-coronavirus-cases-.html

Cardboard

Ok, i’ll bite. Cardboard, what is it specifically that Trudeau is doing wrong?

Every model out there is predicting a spike in Covid cases in Canada as we enter fall/winter. This is the start of flu season. Any parent who has a kid knows what i am talking about.



If every model saw it coming how come it wasnt prevented? Logic when then tell you someone has to be to blame.

That being said if it cant be prevented, why all the finger pointing across the border?
If something can't be prevented that doesn't mean you should do nothing. It may be that it can't be prevented it can be controlled. We have seen this to be true. Places like Taiwan, SK, NZ weren't able to prevent the virus reaching their population but have done a pretty good job of controlling it when it did.
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: orthopa on October 15, 2020, 08:12:23 AM
Yeah where are these two loudspeakers to blame Trudeau for his disastrous mismanagement of Covid?

WHO warns Canada is facing a 'second wave' of coronavirus cases
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/14/who-warns-canada-is-facing-a-second-wave-of-coronavirus-cases-.html

Cardboard



Ok, i’ll bite. Cardboard, what is it specifically that Trudeau is doing wrong?

Every model out there is predicting a spike in Covid cases in Canada as we enter fall/winter. This is the start of flu season. Any parent who has a kid knows what i am talking about.



If every model saw it coming how come it wasnt prevented? Logic when then tell you someone has to be to blame.

That being said if it cant be prevented, why all the finger pointing across the border?
If something can't be prevented that doesn't mean you should do nothing. It may be that it can't be prevented it can be controlled. We have seen this to be true. Places like Taiwan, SK, NZ weren't able to prevent the virus reaching their population but have done a pretty good job of controlling it when it did.

You forgot China. They haven't had a case in 3-4 months. They are truly the model.
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: cwericb on October 15, 2020, 08:34:16 AM
“If every model saw it coming how come it wasnt prevented? Logic when then tell you someone has to be to blame.
That being said if it cant be prevented, why all the finger pointing across the border?”


That would appear to be typical U.S. right wing thinking. If we can’t prevent it lets just ignore it and “sometime it will just go away” - sometime - perhaps. Meanwhile 220,000 people die and the figure continues to go up.

Every person with half a clue knows that the one simple thing to help reduce the spread is to wear a mask when in close proximity to others. So it is inexcusable for Trump to politicize something so simple and so important as the wearing of masks.

If the US allows the spread to continue with virtually no direction from the top, then the US becomes a danger to everyone else. Take trucking for example. There are 80,000 to 90,000 trucks entering Canada from the U.S. every week. And that doesn’t include all of the other essential cross border traffic. When the U.S. can’t take reasonably responsible steps to reduce the spread of the virus it has a direct effect on its neighbours. And that is why Canadians have a vested interest in what happens in the U.S. If you worked in an office and half the staff had an infectious disease, would you still go to work? Well we can’t just stay home.

I don't know about other areas, but when we get new cases of Covid, it is usually traced back to "international essential travel" i.e. Truckers or others crossing into Canada from the U.S.

I hope this answers your question and helps explain the situation from this side of the border.

Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: rb on October 15, 2020, 09:38:18 AM
Trudeau is an abject failure and all leftist governments in Canada.

They killed our liberties, picked winners and losers, destroyed our balance sheet not to overwelm hospitals and their unionized and highly paid workers and the end results is the exact same as in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Ever heard of Sweden you uneducated? Funny that a deep socialist state used their head and tried something else.

They did fuck all and infection, death count per capita is same.

Reason why they have more cases/deaths in the U.S. is that it takes a few hours to get test results vs a week if not more out here and a lot more of pre-conditions: diabetes, obesity and other.

If Obounga was still in power they would applaud same results. You guys are the true deplorables!

Cardboard
Bless your heart Cardboard, but your math hasn't been very good when trying to make political points.

Sweden's per capita infection and death rates are the same as Canada's? No. Both are about double. If Canada has been an abject failure in dealing with COVID then I imagine your opinion of Sweden's performance will change drastically based on this updated information.

The number of deaths in the US is higher because of testing? Is that COVID doesn't kill people, tests kill people.

When it comes to our Canada's balance sheet and fiscal performance you've gotta be kidding. Liberals, even Trudeau has been a choir boy compared to the conservatives in the States.
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Cigarbutt on October 15, 2020, 09:46:20 AM
^i'm not into sterile debates but the following compares the fiscal 'effort':
https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/en/rates-and-analysis/economic-analysis/hot-charts-201014.pdf
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Viking on October 15, 2020, 10:03:26 AM
^i'm not into sterile debates but the following compares the fiscal 'effort':
https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/en/rates-and-analysis/economic-analysis/hot-charts-201014.pdf

Cigar, thanks for posting. I think i read that Canada’s total federal debt is going up 35% this year alone. Staggering.

Since the pandemic started Trudeau has been spraying massive amounts of money into every part of the country/economy. When i think of Trudeau i have this image of a fireman with a hose shooting $100 bills out the end (and in every direction).

Yes, additional fiscal spending has been required to help the economy get through the pandemic. However, Trudeau is like a kid in a candy shop right now with no discipline or self control. The fact he has a minority government (and needing support of the NDP) further supports the bias to spend big.

On a personal level, my family has been a big beneficiary so i should probably just be quiet :-)
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Gregmal on October 15, 2020, 10:09:09 AM
^i'm not into sterile debates but the following compares the fiscal 'effort':
https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/en/rates-and-analysis/economic-analysis/hot-charts-201014.pdf

Cigar, thanks for posting. I think i read that Canada’s total federal debt is going up 35% this year alone. Staggering.

Since the pandemic started Trudeau has been spraying massive amounts of money into every part of the country/economy. When i think of Trudeau i have this image of a fireman with a hose shooting $100 bills out the end (and in every direction).

Yes, additional fiscal spending has been required to help the economy get through the pandemic. However, Trudeau is like a kid in a candy shop right now with no discipline or self control. The fact he has a minority government (and needing support of the NDP) further supports the bias to spend big.

On a personal level, my family has been a big beneficiary so i should probably just be quiet :-)

Now I know why you've gone liberal!
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: cwericb on October 15, 2020, 10:47:51 AM
Justin reminds me of his father. A billion here a billion there, let someone else worry about paying it back.

Having said that, I shudder to think what would have happened if we hadn't have had any of that spending.

So you take the good with the bad and don't over look this part of the report:

“The recovery in Canada’s labour market by nearly all measurements has been much stronger than  in  the  US  where  fiscal  uncertainty  and  inaction  has  provided  a  headwind  in  recent  months.  Moreover,  Canada's  federal  government entered the crisis with fiscal room to spare (less so the for the provinces)—at least if general government net debt was your focus. Even allowing for  this  year's  outsized  shortfall,  the  IMF  puts  Canada's  general  government  net  debt  burden  at  less  than  50%—easily  the  best  among  G7  nations.”

More people working = more taxes being paid.
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: rb on October 15, 2020, 11:53:07 AM
^i'm not into sterile debates but the following compares the fiscal 'effort':
https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/en/rates-and-analysis/economic-analysis/hot-charts-201014.pdf

Cigar, thanks for posting. I think i read that Canada’s total federal debt is going up 35% this year alone. Staggering.

Since the pandemic started Trudeau has been spraying massive amounts of money into every part of the country/economy. When i think of Trudeau i have this image of a fireman with a hose shooting $100 bills out the end (and in every direction).

Yes, additional fiscal spending has been required to help the economy get through the pandemic. However, Trudeau is like a kid in a candy shop right now with no discipline or self control. The fact he has a minority government (and needing support of the NDP) further supports the bias to spend big.

On a personal level, my family has been a big beneficiary so i should probably just be quiet :-)
I guess you've read that somewhere. But deceiving figures like that 35% is something that doesn't sit well with me and makes me think that the content is bullshit. Doesn't even mean anything. The number is bigger because Canada's debt is lower. Is that a bad thing? Should our debt be bigger so that the % increase would be lower? If Canada would have half the debt it has then the % increase would be 70% even more staggering than the 35%. Should Canada have done less to support the economy in that case?
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Viking on October 15, 2020, 12:20:24 PM
^i'm not into sterile debates but the following compares the fiscal 'effort':
https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/en/rates-and-analysis/economic-analysis/hot-charts-201014.pdf

Cigar, thanks for posting. I think i read that Canada’s total federal debt is going up 35% this year alone. Staggering.

Since the pandemic started Trudeau has been spraying massive amounts of money into every part of the country/economy. When i think of Trudeau i have this image of a fireman with a hose shooting $100 bills out the end (and in every direction).

Yes, additional fiscal spending has been required to help the economy get through the pandemic. However, Trudeau is like a kid in a candy shop right now with no discipline or self control. The fact he has a minority government (and needing support of the NDP) further supports the bias to spend big.

On a personal level, my family has been a big beneficiary so i should probably just be quiet :-)
I guess you've read that somewhere. But deceiving figures like that 35% is something that doesn't sit well with me and makes me think that the content is bullshit. Doesn't even mean anything. The number is bigger because Canada's debt is lower. Is that a bad thing? Should our debt be bigger so that the % increase would be lower? If Canada would have half the debt it has then the % increase would be 70% even more staggering than the 35%. Should Canada have done less to support the economy in that case?

Federal government spending is at unprecedented levels. Spending will remain elevated until the virus is under control... which could be years away.

And guess what is happening with Provinces? Much larger budget deficits (Higher spending and lower tax receipts). We have an election here in BC and the NDP will likely be the winner. What is their most recent promise? To cut everyone in the province a check ($1,000 for families and $500 for singles). Because of covid :-)

And where is the most expensive real estate? Vancouver. Consumers hold record amounts of debt due to our housing bubble.

What not to like? Debt no longer matters. Free money for all...
———————-
Ottawa to post $343B deficit as spending hits levels not seen since Second World War
- https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bill-morneau-fiscal-update-budget-deficit-1.5641864

Federal debtload will hit $1.2 trillion in 2020-21, the government projects in its fiscal ‘snapshot’

Finance Minister Bill Morneau tabled a fiscal snapshot today that shows the federal government's deficit is expected to hit $343 billion this year — an eye-popping figure largely attributed to pandemic-related support programs that have pushed federal spending to a level not seen since the Second World War.
——————————
All told, the mounting deficit has pushed the federal government's total debt level to more than $1 trillion — a number never before seen in Canada.

The projected debt will be $1.2 trillion by March 2021, up from $765 billion a year earlier.
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: rb on October 15, 2020, 01:58:36 PM
^i'm not into sterile debates but the following compares the fiscal 'effort':
https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/en/rates-and-analysis/economic-analysis/hot-charts-201014.pdf

Cigar, thanks for posting. I think i read that Canada’s total federal debt is going up 35% this year alone. Staggering.

Since the pandemic started Trudeau has been spraying massive amounts of money into every part of the country/economy. When i think of Trudeau i have this image of a fireman with a hose shooting $100 bills out the end (and in every direction).

Yes, additional fiscal spending has been required to help the economy get through the pandemic. However, Trudeau is like a kid in a candy shop right now with no discipline or self control. The fact he has a minority government (and needing support of the NDP) further supports the bias to spend big.

On a personal level, my family has been a big beneficiary so i should probably just be quiet :-)
I guess you've read that somewhere. But deceiving figures like that 35% is something that doesn't sit well with me and makes me think that the content is bullshit. Doesn't even mean anything. The number is bigger because Canada's debt is lower. Is that a bad thing? Should our debt be bigger so that the % increase would be lower? If Canada would have half the debt it has then the % increase would be 70% even more staggering than the 35%. Should Canada have done less to support the economy in that case?

Federal government spending is at unprecedented levels. Spending will remain elevated until the virus is under control... which could be years away.

And guess what is happening with Provinces? Much larger budget deficits (Higher spending and lower tax receipts). We have an election here in BC and the NDP will likely be the winner. What is their most recent promise? To cut everyone in the province a check ($1,000 for families and $500 for singles). Because of covid :-)

And where is the most expensive real estate? Vancouver. Consumers hold record amounts of debt due to our housing bubble.

What not to like? Debt no longer matters. Free money for all...
———————-
Ottawa to post $343B deficit as spending hits levels not seen since Second World War
- https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bill-morneau-fiscal-update-budget-deficit-1.5641864

Federal debtload will hit $1.2 trillion in 2020-21, the government projects in its fiscal ‘snapshot’

Finance Minister Bill Morneau tabled a fiscal snapshot today that shows the federal government's deficit is expected to hit $343 billion this year — an eye-popping figure largely attributed to pandemic-related support programs that have pushed federal spending to a level not seen since the Second World War.
——————————
All told, the mounting deficit has pushed the federal government's total debt level to more than $1 trillion — a number never before seen in Canada.

The projected debt will be $1.2 trillion by March 2021, up from $765 billion a year earlier.
I didn't think you would take this the wrong way but seems like you did. It was not a criticism of you but more of how some number gets reported. You would run into this issue whenever you use nominal especially in a historical context. For example a 1 trillion debt number never before seen in Canada. Sure that was never before seen. But the 1.06 trillion projected debt value would mean around 49% debt/gdp. Well that number was very much seen before. Most recently around the year 2000.

For more historical comparison purposes I think Canadian federal debt peaked at around 80% of GDP in 1996. So very much seen before. By comparison with the US, the last time the US was at 49% was 1988. Going into COVID the US was at 107%.

On one side the government actually has to take a lot of this debt on to clear the money markets. Since covid started saving has shot up, bank deposits are up and there's nobody to take this money. On the other side having an economy is kinda nice. The government is instrumental in that. We could argue about the specifics of each program and whether they're a bit more generous that they should be. But by and large this is what should be done the rest is more in the nit-picking range. What should we do? Destroy the economy because rb and viking are philosophically averse to debt? Seems a little silly.

Moreover, Canada, as evidenced above has plenty of fiscal room and firepower because it has managed its finances very well. Even Trudeau, despite all the nonsense that was written has been a fiscal boy scout. One can say that we have been frugal in the past in order to be able to be aggressive when something like this comes along. That is textbook economic/fiscal husbandry. Be frugal when times are good in order to be able to be profligate when times get bad.

Btw, I say this as all the government support is hurting me. I've got high exposure to a business where I'm ok but the government is keeping most of my competitors alive. Without rent support and CEWS a lot (most?) my competitors would be gone in 2-3 months and we would make a ridiculous amount of money after that. Still doesn't seem right to destroy the economy for that. One also has to wonder whether one still has customers if the economy gets destroyed even if one doesn't have many competitors.
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: orthopa on October 17, 2020, 08:41:25 AM
“If every model saw it coming how come it wasnt prevented? Logic when then tell you someone has to be to blame.
That being said if it cant be prevented, why all the finger pointing across the border?”


That would appear to be typical U.S. right wing thinking. If we can’t prevent it lets just ignore it and “sometime it will just go away” - sometime - perhaps. Meanwhile 220,000 people die and the figure continues to go up.

Every person with half a clue knows that the one simple thing to help reduce the spread is to wear a mask when in close proximity to others. So it is inexcusable for Trump to politicize something so simple and so important as the wearing of masks.

If the US allows the spread to continue with virtually no direction from the top, then the US becomes a danger to everyone else. Take trucking for example. There are 80,000 to 90,000 trucks entering Canada from the U.S. every week. And that doesn’t include all of the other essential cross border traffic. When the U.S. can’t take reasonably responsible steps to reduce the spread of the virus it has a direct effect on its neighbours. And that is why Canadians have a vested interest in what happens in the U.S. If you worked in an office and half the staff had an infectious disease, would you still go to work? Well we can’t just stay home.

I don't know about other areas, but when we get new cases of Covid, it is usually traced back to "international essential travel" i.e. Truckers or others crossing into Canada from the U.S.

I hope this answers your question and helps explain the situation from this side of the border.

So Canadas covid cases are all from US citizens? That's your person or persons to blame?
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Cardboard on October 17, 2020, 09:18:11 AM
Probably from New Brunswick or some other paranoid place.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: cubsfan on October 17, 2020, 09:23:08 AM
Probably from New Brunswick or some other paranoid place.

Cardboard

Don't forget about the "super-spreader" Trump - always someone to blame!
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Gregmal on October 17, 2020, 09:35:17 AM
Obviously if leadership in the Great White North was all its cracked up to be, everyone would be wearing masks and covid cases would be approaching zero by now.

Anything else would be a false equivalency! Because Trump supporters just dont get the magic of socialist politicians who describe themselves as socialist politicians but clearly arent socialists....did I miss anything?
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Cigarbutt on October 17, 2020, 09:56:04 AM
...
Don't forget about the "super-spreader" Trump - always someone to blame!
Cubsfan,
You may remember a discussion of the virus using the Trojan Horse analogy. The 'experience' in Canada has been variable. BC (Viking) and Eastern Canada (cwericb) have done very well because they accepted the gift but contained the spread. Those regions may have been endowed with pre-existing positive predispositions and and luck may have played a role but they did very well with the factors that they could control. My province (central Canada) has shown results comparable to the US (overall deaths etc) and, somehow, in my area, there is very little appetite for humble and constructive efforts at cause(s) comprehension. Most people are suggesting to extend and to pretend which i find perplexing.
Anyways, from a pure spread point of view, using various inputs including genomic data, and simply focusing mechanically on the proximate cause aspect, most of the viral spread, in my province, came from viruses originating from China, travelling to Europe and making its way into my province mostly through various New York area transits.
Looking at official data for immediate source of spread (there is a degree of uncertainty here), most new cases in Canada (except Prince Edward Island) arise from the community and not from international exposure.
Allowing community spread has been tried using various strategies and results have been disappointing especially when the message is delayed, unclear, inconsistent and poorly coordinated. Scotland recently published an interesting report (to try to guide a sensible and graduated re-opening strategy) which included a graph (see below) estimating the sources of community spread and i would submit that it's a reasonable template for all regions that have been characterized by persistent spread. It may be useful info for you if you wonder about mask wearing or about where you should spend your leisure time (you can better adjust your behaviors if you want to (or don't want to) catch the virus).

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/800/cpsprodpb/CE0B/production/_114874725_settings.jpg)
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Spekulatius on October 17, 2020, 04:23:31 PM
^ Interesting to see a high probability from Friend and family gatherings. Anecdotally, that seems to be the case in Continental Europe as well. We have largely avoiding gathering with friends (at least indoors), but have met some of them outdoors.  Both my wife and my own family live far away, so meetings with them are not an option anyways.

Hospitality in Scotland probably means pubs. Well, it’s not hard to guess that pubs and bars are probably places to avoid, if you want to avoid the virus.

Family cluster transmission no surprise. Once a family member gets it, it is likely that all family members are exposed and possibly infected before the member who introduced the virus even knows he has COVID-19. So there is  to much that can be done about this except for every family member avoiding exposure.
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: orthopa on October 18, 2020, 05:45:59 AM
^ Interesting to see a high probability from Friend and family gatherings. Anecdotally, that seems to be the case in Continental Europe as well. We have largely avoiding gathering with friends (at least indoors), but have met some of them outdoors.  Both my wife and my own family live far away, so meetings with them are not an option anyways.

Hospitality in Scotland probably means pubs. Well, it’s not hard to guess that pubs and bars are probably places to avoid, if you want to avoid the virus.

Family cluster transmission no surprise. Once a family member gets it, it is likely that all family members are exposed and possibly infected before the member who introduced the virus even knows he has COVID-19. So there is  to much that can be done about this except for every family member avoiding exposure.

Interesting. Would have been good if we thought about this before locking everyone down in their homes back in March huh?
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: Cigarbutt on October 18, 2020, 08:23:27 AM
^ Interesting to see a high probability from Friend and family gatherings. Anecdotally, that seems to be the case in Continental Europe as well. We have largely avoiding gathering with friends (at least indoors), but have met some of them outdoors.  Both my wife and my own family live far away, so meetings with them are not an option anyways.
Hospitality in Scotland probably means pubs. Well, it’s not hard to guess that pubs and bars are probably places to avoid, if you want to avoid the virus.
Family cluster transmission no surprise. Once a family member gets it, it is likely that all family members are exposed and possibly infected before the member who introduced the virus even knows he has COVID-19. So there is  to much that can be done about this except for every family member avoiding exposure.
^Let's say you're in charge of policy making and you see those cases rising (and hospitalization rates) and you saw (somehow) bodies building up during the last phase, what do you do now?
Why restrictions on restaurants, bars or pubs and not on shopping centers? There is high residual uncertainty and decisions have to be taken. Measures can be more targeted and temporary but we are still flying blind to some degree.
One aspect is social acceptability. Some of this is fact-based but there are a lot of beliefs. Recently, i've had personal discussions with people (who are quite knowledgeable) who support the Great Barrington Declaration (aim for herd immunity with an ill-defined strategy to protect those at risk). The discussion is very interesting for the aspect dealing with the costs of restrictions because the costs are very real. It's really hard to get the discussion going though when they (most of them) seem to suggest that (irrespective of costs) restrictions actually caused an increase in disease burden?
Title: Re: Where is Cwericb and Viking?
Post by: cwericb on October 18, 2020, 10:57:11 AM
“If every model saw it coming how come it wasnt prevented? Logic when then tell you someone has to be to blame.
That being said if it cant be prevented, why all the finger pointing across the border?”


That would appear to be typical U.S. right wing thinking. If we can’t prevent it lets just ignore it and “sometime it will just go away” - sometime - perhaps. Meanwhile 220,000 people die and the figure continues to go up.

Every person with half a clue knows that the one simple thing to help reduce the spread is to wear a mask when in close proximity to others. So it is inexcusable for Trump to politicize something so simple and so important as the wearing of masks.

If the US allows the spread to continue with virtually no direction from the top, then the US becomes a danger to everyone else. Take trucking for example. There are 80,000 to 90,000 trucks entering Canada from the U.S. every week. And that doesn’t include all of the other essential cross border traffic. When the U.S. can’t take reasonably responsible steps to reduce the spread of the virus it has a direct effect on its neighbours. And that is why Canadians have a vested interest in what happens in the U.S. If you worked in an office and half the staff had an infectious disease, would you still go to work? Well we can’t just stay home.

I don't know about other areas, but when we get new cases of Covid, it is usually traced back to "international essential travel" i.e. Truckers or others crossing into Canada from the U.S.

I hope this answers your question and helps explain the situation from this side of the border.

So Canadas covid cases are all from US citizens? That's your person or persons to blame?

Once again an attempt to twist what others say.

Please show where I said: "Canadas covid cases are all from US citizens"
Pretty lame.